45001 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > # any customary observance or practice > # of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual > killing" > # the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies > # stereotyped behavior > # of or relating to or employed in social rites or rituals > > I have rituals I perform every day they help me stay on track and not > forget things, ritual is a tool I use for my faulty memory. I have a > bowl by my front door that I put my house keys in when I come home and > when I go out again I know exactly where they are. Why is ritual wrong > if it is done with the awareness of the Moment as in staying aware of > sensations as you go about your day? > > I take ritual like sitting meditation, as a way to replace bad habits > and establish good habits in the beginning when I first started > meditating. This gave me a quiet place inside myself that I could sit > quietly where ever I am. Also ritual has many meanings so maybe I am > not clear on how the board uses it. > > I know that just sitting will not deliver me from suffering because I > sit all day at the office and that does not seem to help my ignorant > reactions to pleasant and unpleasant sensations. I read Abhidhamma > and Sutra daily but that does not seem to help me overcome deeply > seated ways of reacting when I get stressed although it does help me > understand different aspects of body and mind and also gives me a good > understanding of other peoples mind sets. > > Ritual can be used to establish new and healthy ways of going about my > day like driving a car, there are customary practices and observance > when driving that a beginner has to remember moment by moment all the > time when they are driving or they may get a ticket or even worse kill > themselves and or someone else. After driving for some time the rules > become second nature and observing the rules during driving is without > effort and becomes much easier. It seems to be the same way when > learning the Law of Nature. > > >[Htoo] > > I will repeat. > > > > It is at higher level to attain such state of mind. What state of > > mind? It is the state of mind, when all 4 satipatthana are working. > > So there is no need to say any 'rituals' or formal or anything. > >What matter is 'TO FULLY KNOW NAMA AND RUPA THAT ARISE IN THE SENSE > >FIELD'. > > [Lisa] I would think if someone has attained that state of mind having > to do dishes or a ritual of some kind would be done correctly and > mindfully. They would be able to see all 'things' as equal. > > >[Htoo] But for beginners, they do need sappaaya sampajanna. > > [Lisa] if I understand correctly sampajanna is the constant thorough > understanding of impermanence. That is what vipassana meditation > teaches and sitting formally is helpful in establishing a well focused > mind to see this constant flow. > > >[Htoo] Just reading and just understanding is not realization. As > >soon as he or she has a stroke that attacks all the memory of learned > >matters, then there is nothing as Dhamma left. > > [Lisa] I had often wondered what would happen at death or chronic > illness if one loses the ability to feel and think. I would like to > hear more about this if there is any material online I have a few > articles from my teachers on this, I would like to read more about it. > > > >[Htoo] But for realized ones, whatever they have such as cancers or > >strokes or anything, they still have their wisdom. Because wisdom is > >from their real experience. As I frequently say, sati, viriya and > >panna have to come together. > > [Lisa]viriya (perseverance, effort), sati (mindfulness, awareness), > samadhi (focussed attention) and panna (right understanding of things > as they really are). I also think faith and effort are also important > adhitthana, and saddha. > > >[Htoo] Just reading and understanding on facts is not realization. > >Actually there may be lobha in thier understanding. > > lobha: (Sanskrit) [from the verbal root lubh to desire greatly] > Covetousness, avarice, stupidity. > > [Lisa]I agree with that, I've gone back through sutras I've read a few > years ago and my understanding is very different than it was a few > years back I am know I suffer covetousness of how I see things. > > >[Htoo] But some intelligent people are still thinking that realizers > >are doing rituals like formal meditation. > > [Lisa]A ritual is just a tool and I am sure someone who understands > Dhamma can see that and use it correctly and when done with it but it > down and continue on. > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > With Metta, > Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Lisa, Thank you very much for your reply. Especially I would like to thank you for thorough explanation on rituals. I think your explanation will be far more comprehensible than Robert K would explain. I think I can sense a very small point that you made. I have agreed with Sarah for a point and I left more points to agree. And I announced that when I come to discover those points I would declare those points. You well explain on rituals. I did see people who were walking very slowly even in awkward posture of walking like bending the knees, closing the fists, closing the eyes to the depth of buried eye-lashes while she or he is trying to force to arise sati and panna. Thanks Lisa. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45002 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi Tep, The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying that learning to the present moment. Ken H ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken H, Tep, and all, 'Sonasingaala dayopi gacchantaa gacchaamaati jaananti'. Dogs, foxes know when they go. But such knowing is not satipatthana. Satipatthaana explains well. It is The Buddha words that say 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati'. This is conventional talking. The practitioner will sense with his own sense. Senses can only sense senses. Not concepts. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45003 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:50am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858 [was: Mindfulness of breath in daily life] rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, Thanks for you postive reponse. I go little by little and ask for you comment on every point in each post. 1. Many Buddhist who join dsg cite modern teachers as evidence for this or that practice. Recently you mentioned Mahasi Sayadw, Pa Auk, and U Ba Khin and other teachers as evidence of those who teach some formal practice. I have to say I do not believe this is the right way - in these days- to approach Dhamma. You were away from dsg a little while back when I posted an artilce from www.nibbana.com where the mahasi people were defending themselves against some strong criticism from Pa Auk. In fact now Pa Auks books have been banned in Burma as Mahasi method has become orthodox. The big controverises in the early days of mahsi are forgotton (not that I agree with Pa Auk).] Or I saw a comment by a past editor of The light of Dhamma alluding to a layteacher (who I was informed was U Ba Khin) and how he was very contoverial at that time (in the sixties) . But now it becomes orthodoxy in burma - and new students have no idea, they take it all on board. I never used to bother putting in teachers nmmes as I thought simply explain Dhamma and those who can see will understand. Now I think there is so much attachment to the modern teachers that it is necessary to bring these matters up. These moderns appeal because they alwasy have a short cut that involves much effort .?@But effort is not hard to invoke - it comes with both kusala and akusala. Hard to see which is which. Still becuase anyone can make effort they are very popular. I give an example. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.?@I told her I was staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her father. He came out and aksed me about Dhamma and meditation and so on. All based on this glowing skin. Actually what it was was a purified type of lobha was conditioning this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. Delusion - but taken as the right way. So wrong effort was producing wrong concentration and ..... We have to strive to become independent to become our own refuge in the Dhamma - and that only comes by insight into what sati really is. If we can get that far then the right path will open, it can't be hurried. But if we attach to the teacher we will not be able to pass through. We have to look at the modern teachers critically, do they conform with Dhamma. Or are there little flags up where they add something new. Robertk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > > > Htooo if you sincerely want me to explain in detail, then reply to > this email seriously and in detail. If you make oblique comments or > then I will leave it at this. > > Robertk > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Robert K, > > Thanks for your invitation. Could you please explain me in detail? > This > is serious request. Apology for not replying in detail as 'snipping' > is > essential here. I am just a beginner. I am just a learner. I am > flexible. I am malleable. I have been exploring Dhamma. I am not an > advanced learner like you. Actually I have been learning many things > from you and your posts not only in DSG but in other lists. I am > always 45004 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, Christine - In a message dated 5/1/05 5:34:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > So the question, what befalls someone who dies > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated > mind effect their rebirth? ======================= Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally, one should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is almost never the case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an advanced practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the rest of us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of lack of clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A mindstream torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good condition for an auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Moreover, in the presence of enormous upset there is almost never much clarity either. So, as I see it, the sacrificing of clarity for a degree of calm at the time of death is not a bad choice at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45005 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 6:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Thanks Philip, You are right, I was thinking of the Mahayana paramis. What are the 10 Theravada paramis and do they have the same significance? CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip <...> Hi Charles, Ken and all > > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to > do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like > generosity. > -------------------------- Charles, you're probably thinking of the paramis. They are six in Mahayana, 10 in Theravada. As you say, mental factors, but the mental factors are realities as well. <...> 45006 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: Breathing: Message # 44858: Importance of Sikkha & SAnna buddhistmedi... Hi Lisa and Htoo - I truly enjoyed reading your posts. One very important key idea in the dialogue between you two (messages # 44977 and #44983) is that sanna (perception) is a requisite for sati (mindfulness) and that good sanna (e.g. anicca-sanna, anatta-sanna, viraga-sanna) must be trained (sikkha). When the right kind of sanna has been trained, it "sinks in" and the opposite one will be completely replaced; for example, anicca-sanna replaces nicca-sanna. Lisa is right to say that "rituals" are an important building block of sikkha. Let me quote a few references to confirm such important fact. 1) The Visuddhimagga, XIV, 141 describes sati as follows: 'Its function is not to forget...its approximate cause is strong perception, or its approximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness.' 2) Perception is also subtly related to themes of Mindfulness Immersed in the Body [Kayagatasati]: "There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain". [AN IV.14 § 50 in Part II: The Seven Sets, C. The Four Right Exertions, Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu.] 3) "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk --having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy". [AN X.60, Girimananda Sutta] 4)"And what is the perception of abandoning? There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill-will. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is called the perception of abandoning. -- AN X,60. Tep's Notes: 'Exertion to abandon unwholesome thoughts' is the same as the Perception of abandoning. 'Exertion to guard' is the same as sense-faculty restraint. The four exertions together is seen as samma- vayamo or Right Effort, a factor of the Eightfold Path. 5) The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as Adhicitta-sikkha means. "Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. "Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. "Then, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases". [DN 9: Potthapada Sutta] Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > > # any customary observance or practice > # of or relating to or characteristic of religious rituals; "ritual > killing" > # the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremonies > # stereotyped behavior > # of or relating to or employed in social rites or rituals > > I have rituals I perform every day they help me stay on track and not > forget things, ritual is a tool I use for my faulty memory. I have a > bowl by my front door that I put my house keys in when I come home and > when I go out again I know exactly where they are. Why is ritual wrong > if it is done with the awareness of the Moment as in staying aware of > sensations as you go about your day? > 45007 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:24am Subject: What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi Charles > You are right, I was thinking of the Mahayana paramis. What are the > 10 Theravada paramis and do they have the same significance? Let me write down a few things from Nina's "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which is available at abhidhamma.org No, come to think of it, I will try it as a closed-book test to see what I have retained from reading and rereading it last year. I can't remember if there is a proper order they should be in, but the perfections (paramis) are sila, dana, wisdom, renunciation, determination, metta, truthfulness, energy, patience and equanimity. Why are there 10 in Theravada and 6 in Mahayana and do they have the same significance? I don't know. I guess they were condensed as they evolved. I don't remember the Mahayana perfections, but maybe determination was absorbed within energy, or renunciation within dana or something like that? I'm grateful for your question, because I don't think about the Perfections the way I did last year. I remember learning that the Buddha developed the perfections over many lifetimes, and I think there is the idea that they supported him. We usually don't want to think of accumulating kusala (eradication of akusala seems more beneficial) but I sense there is something like the accumulation of kusala in the perfections. It is hard to develop panna, but the perfections give us strength to persevere. Something like that. Shoot, I don't remember much. I remember the very first post I sent to DSG last year was to ask how I should go about developing the perfections, which one I should start with and so on. At that time clearly they appealed to me as something I could do intentionally to develop mnyself into a more wholesome person, like a workout regime at the gym. And I learned that it is not necessary or skillful to think about which perfections to develop - the opportunity to develop them will arise or not arise due to conditions, but we can be aware when there is the opportunity. I also learned that it is not necessary to perfect all ten. It will depend on one's accumulations which are developed or not. Perhaps because of accumulations, I, for example, am developing patience in this lifetime. So we are born with a tendency to develop some perfections more than others? How many of them are kusasla cetasikas and how many of them are...something else? I don't think patience (khanti) is a cetasika. I've learned recently that it is contained within virya (energy) which is soemthing I'll want to think more about. Is truthfulness a cetasika? I don't think so, but.. I remember thinking that the perfections reminded me of a book I read years back when I was briefly interested in Christian gnosticism called "The Imitation of Christ." It felt to me that the perfections provided us with a way to imitate the Buddha, but now I think there is too much self-interest involved in that kind of thinking. It is a mistake to think that we can decide to develop Buddha-like virtues, here and now, by will power. Thus the emphasis in Nina's book on developing the perfections over a long period of time. (ie lifetimes rather than years) I think when I read Thich Nhat Hahn there was much more of the imitation of the Buddha kind of thing - pleasant and inspirational material to feel good about oneself within a single cup of tea. Please check out Nina's book at abhidhamma.org and perhaps someone else will add to what I've written. I read and read and read and retain so little! Metta, Phil 45008 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder htootintnaing Dear Sukin ( and all interested members of DSG ), First I intended to reply the final part of your post about 'sutta'. But now I take time to have effective communication. You wrote: Dear Htoo, I have to write this with interruptions from my children. So I will skip much of your post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: We cannot control anything. So we cannot control 'interruption'. Christine knows that I will be busy in these days and may be I would be out of internet for months. Because I cannot control anything. Anatta. :-)). So skipping is also OK, for me as you would also be OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Who is first? Chick or egg? Sukinder: Don't know why you ask, but are you talking about pariyatti and patipatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once Upasaka Howard said that he saw my dry joke. Actually I just made a joke. Teaching is teaching. Labels are labels. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > :-) No Htoo, unlike you, I don't have anything above a beginner's > > knowledge of Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Here what I see is you quote 'unlike you'. You are referring me as > > an 'advanced abhidhamma learner'. Where you know very fine points, > I > > would not say you are a beginner. > > > > What is real is I am a beginner. :-)) Sukinder: I have learnt so much from your writings, which I may not have come upon on my own. Your knowledge is very wide and all comprehensive, but more importantly you are able to look at the same thing from various angles and then show them to others. And this is very remarkable. Also I think you are developing the paramis to a good extent. If you are a beginner, then I am a beginner amongst beginners. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmmm.. smile :-)). Let it be as it is. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Because I just have 'abhidhammatthasangaha' text. I do not have > > Abhidhamma Pitaka. I do not have any of 7 texts of abhidhamma > namely > > dhammasanganii, vibhanga, dhaatukatha, puggala pannatta, > kathavatthu, > > yamaka, patthaana. Sukinder: Yes I know that. Your memory and attention is remarkable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not that level. I still do have forgetfulness and confusion. Examples are I still confuse Ken O/Ken H, Rob K /Ro M, gazita/azita, Jon /Zon etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So I am a genuine beginner. I learned a lot from Sarah, Nina, Rob M, > > Rob M, Ken O, Ken H, Kel, you and many others. Sukinder: No doubt about this too. We can and do learn much from one another. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I am here and in other lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > But you cannot be a beginner. Because you do know 'formal practice' > > and 'real practice'. Sukinder: :-) If I may express an opinion based on some speculation. I hope it is not too presumptuous. I think part of the reason your views about practice is what it is today, is because of your respect and reverence for the tradition you were brought up in and the various Teachers that you look up to. But I think that you go too much in that direction when you say that they are "all valid". Conditions are very complex and I can't identify exactly which causes are more likely to lead to the desired result and which are not likely to do so, if at all I can identify the causes and really understand the result. But to say, that they "all" are good. This confuses me about your view!!?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are people who go to retreats of different traditions and some did not satisfy. I had an example case. Once one approached a teacher and learned from the teacher. That one said, 'the results were good' but later said again that 'the results are not the same when compared with the teachings in the text in the form of sutta. And finally the one left the teacher. Why I said 'all are good' is that there does exist 'goodness'. I do know that there are many conditions. But the goodness does exist and does reside in each tradition. I said this because I looked under the microscope of abhidhamma and each tradition does have goodness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > Please do bring it to our attention here on DSG itself. I am sure > > almost everyone would be interested. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I will bring it when I find it. Actually I should have noted it in a book for later reference. What I believe is that the teacher is right and said with good intention. But interpretations are not the same by different followers. I will do when I find, OK? Sukinder: Ah, now I remember. You are referring to something K. Sujin said aren't you? You did mention this before, and yes, please do bring it up when you find your source. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)). Dear Sukin. I must say you do have very good memory and attention and both are remarkable. And you can penetrate what is behind something. One of the members here tried to find out what it was. But you instantaneously know the fact. My source is in the 'writing of K. Sujin'. When I found that I was pleased that she simply explained on dhamma. I agreed with her in my mind. But the followers' interpretation of her points is not that right, I think. But I read it long time ago. But when I re-discover it, I will let you know and bring it here up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: In the meantime let me mention that I don't believe that any of us who respect her, "believe" her words without reason and some understanding. I don't think any of us would have the degree of confidence, if what she said were not experienced by any degree of panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I respect K Sujin. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > If by this you mean that very rarely anyone of us experiences > > patipatti, then I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Please do not mix > 1.pariyatti > 2.patipatti > 3.pativedha > I think you are referring 'experiences patipatti' as pativedha. Sukinder: No I mean patipatti, as in satipatthana. I think for most of us, most of the time, any understanding is only on the `thinking' level. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 3 panna. Sutaamaya, cintaamaya and bhavanaamaya panna. Without bhaavanaa there is no way to realize Dhamma. Without bhaavana, all understanding will be just memories of what other taught and own logical thinking and the results of thinking. But the problem is that what is bhaavana. Again this will lead to 'rituals'. That is why I said 'which is first chick or egg?'. I just say 'cyclicity' and not saying pariyatta first, patipatti first or anything like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are many ion DSG who meditate, I believe. Sukinder: And here you are saying that those who meditate, that they experience patipatti? In other words you are certain that these `conventional entities' involved in `conventional activities' are experiencing the `dhamma' patipatti? You judged this simply by virtue of what they say they do, i.e. meditate? Or do you understand this from what they have written about dhamma? Do they ever write about the dhammas arising and falling in the moment? Or do they mostly talk about what they "do"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Some may say they did not run. But there are footprint of kickstart. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sukinder: > > When you say in 1., "theory first, followed by practice", I think > > already there might be a difference in understanding. I really don't > > like to draw a line between pariyatti and patipatti except to show > > that they have different objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > There are definitely 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. Sukinder: And these are simply `conditioned dhammas', do you agree? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Just names and label. Pariyatti is learning, giving facts, taking facts. Patipatti is going over the fact. Pativedha is absorption of facts. The three words are not the same heading. Please note 'pari' and 'pati'. Pari here is related to parikamma or preparatory actions. Teachings-wise there is no such distinction. But implication-wise they are labeled separately. So all 3 words are just names. Teachings is teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin: > I know that pariyatti cannot lead to pativedha without > much, much patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I believe there is just a thin layer between you and me. Otherwise > our understanding will be almost the same. > That thin layer might be discovered later. I have declared the points > to Sarah. When I find it, I will bring it up here on DSG forum. Sukinder: If on identifying the thin line it causes us to agree on this important point of `study and practice', then I will rejoice :-). But I don't picture myself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good to discuss. But again there arises a thin layer again. I say this because you said you don't picture yourself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin: > But all this is not a matter of choice. But if indeed the > understanding is correct, then one would have to agree that > pariyatti is very important and that Bahussuta is a condition for > realization. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If a condition, it is yes. But it is not an equation. There > definitely are 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti, and pativedha. Sukinder: Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That time is after arahatta magga kaala. We do not need to say 'you study' to arahats. So yes. There is a time. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukinder: > Satipatthana is not a ritual, but any "doing" is, and that wouldn't > be satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course. But you need to set up a profile. > The right satipatthana is only possible for arahats. Otherwise > according to your definition, there will be rituals. :-)) Sukinder: There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So I would say that you all are saying to the lowest level of satipatthana as rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I sensed was that this is just overlogification by using abhidhamma knowledge. 1. Sarah denied. 2. Amara bitterly denied 3. You denied that someone is sitting under the tree and forcing sati and panna to arise. I will explain this below and my 'will' to reply was to the final portion which are parts of mahasatipatthana sutta. You all can deny that someone should not force sati and panna to arise. Because sati can never be develop by will. I do know that. Hasituppada does know that. Tep does know that. They are talking about training. In the Buddha time when lent time approached, bhikkhus approached The Buddha and asked for the meditation suited for them. The Buddha compassionately gave them and they all went to forest and sat under the trees and developed sati and panna. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would assing cittas with different colours. Before the fully matured stage, there will have some weak moments when there is no sati and panna. Then SHOULD THE WHOLE LOT BE ACCUSED AS RITUAL? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukinder: > Yes a good concept to explore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I expected that you will answer when you reply. But you now > just restate what I put. I could not find anything 'formal' in Suttas.\ Sukinder: As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see here is 'The Buddha just said natually and in conventional sense for his bhikkhus disciples in the forest.' 'Self' here is extracted by DSG people. The Sutta, Mahasatipatthana does say : 'Kathanca pana bhikkhave bhikkhu kaaye kaayaanupassii viharati? Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamulagato vaa sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallinka.m aabhujitva, ujum kaaya.m panidhaaya, parimukha.m sati.m upathapetva. So satova assasati, satova passasati. Diigham vaa assa santo ''dhigam assasaamiiti pajaanaati,...' The Buddha did not say anything related to 'someone is trying to develop sati and panna'. What I notice is that these are 'thoughts derived from those who learned abhidhamma and they deny because they seem not fit to their understanding. But actually it is not the case. Equally, The Buddha did not encourage 'bhikkhus try to concentrate on pannatti such as breath and sitting position'. I just referred to The Buddha's words, and sutta's expression. But people say 'this is ritual'. ;-) :-( ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: So the idea about time, place, activity thinking that this is more likely to condition sati and panna, and that this is then carried over to the "other" times, this special non- pakati activity is what I label as `formal' mediation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha did say 'place'. Arannagato, rukkhamulagato, sunnagaaragato etc etc. The Buddha did say 'activity'. Viharati, sati.m, upathapetva, pajaanaati etc etc. This is conventional teaching. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: So I am not surprised that you did not find it in the Suttas, because the Buddha did not teach it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So why brought up? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: Whatever the monks were doing during his time, those were pakati for them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is generalization. Because the time in question is inaccessible. As you and DSG member would say rituals, there must have been rituals in The Buddha time. Only maturity would have corrected that rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Once The Buddha and His disciples were in a forest near a great > village, where they depended for the days for alm rounds. The village > is called Kammaasadhamma. It was in the state called Kuru. Kuru may be near today Deli. There The Buddha talked to His disciples how satipatthana had to be kept. > 'O! Bhikkhus' 'Bhikkhave'. This is a single way for liberation. This is the only way for liberation. This is the way for liberation without any alternative routes.' Sukinder: So you are talking about the teachings of Satipatthana. Where does `formal meditation' fit here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just quote the words in satipatthana sutta. When I put forward, then 'formal meditation' word arose. Actually I did not fit anything. I just wrote things from satipatthana sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As I understand it, the people of Kuru were not involved in meditation centers and such, but it was pakati for them, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Atthakathaa says that mahasatipatthana sutta was taught to bhikkhus in the forest near the Kammaasadhamma village of Kuru country. If you want to label as 'meditation centre', the centre was in the forest and the teacher was The Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: in each and every daily activity that they were involved in, to practice satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see is that 'when the whole lot has not been discussed, critics attack severely'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > 'Which four? O! Bhikkhus. The disciple > (bhikkhu/practitioner/meditator) has to live looking/noting body, > feeling, mind, dhamma diligently and clearly understandingly so as > not to arise lobha and dosa which are loka'. > As what The Buddha said is 'to be free from lobha, dosa' and also > invloving 'clearly understanding', which means free from lobha, > satipatthana is DEAD SURE the genuine practice that The Buddha > Himself walked and all other Bodhi walked. Sukinder: But NOT `formal sitting' or any non-pakati activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not the one who introduce formal or informal sitting. I just posted from the sutta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And surely not about observing bodily postures, but rather the paramattha dhammas arisen `by conditions' through the six doorways. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is The Buddha instructions to His disciple bhikkhus. Mahasatipatthana sutta does say: 'Puna ca para.m bhikkhave bhikkhu gacchanto vaa 'gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati, thito vaa 'thitomhii'ti pajaanaati, nisinno vaa 'nisinnomhii'ti pajaanaati, sayaano vaa 'sayaanomhii'ti pajaanaati.' These are The Buddha words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And we have to remember that satipatthana is also a pakati dhamma arisen through complex conditions, and deliberate observing is not one of those. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I did add 'delibrate' when I posted to a list where Amara was there and she became angry with those words. 'Delibrate observing'? :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is genuine practice that The Buddha taught. If this is accused > > of ritual or 'formal practice', by avoiding this practice, no one > > would be liberated. Sukinder: I hope you now understand the distinction I make. Satipatthana, yes, but not formal meditation. One question, is jhana at all necessary in all this? ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is sidetrack. But it is OK. I will not answer whether jhana is necessary or not. Judge yourself. What I would say is that if one is in jhana, he is not at satipatthana and if one is at satipatthana he is not in jhana. Remember that all anagams are reborn in 4th jhana brahma bhuumis called 1. avihaa 2. atappaa 3. sudassaa 4. sudassii 5. akanittha What are patisandhi cittas of these rupa brahmas? ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So you do not refer to the whole Tipitaka. Sukinder: I think the important point is not so much to read it all, but not to `leave out' any part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good point. OK. You said 'not so much to read it all, but not to `leave out' any part'. Could you please post 'a part' [not to leave out any part] of mahasatipattha sutta, which is in tipitaka Dhiigha Nikaaya DN 22 aanaapaanaa pabba. Please do not leave out any part from that 'anapana pabba'. I will see whether you are saying 'formal meditation or not'. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukin: > many can do that with wrong understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > I think this is referring that many bhikkhus read the whole tipitaka > > with wrong understanding. Ledi Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw, Moegoke > > Sayadaw, Shwe Kyin Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw and many other > bhikkhus > > read the whole tipitaka. > > > I am considering what you referred to 'many'. Sukinder: No, I did not have any specific persons in mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So generalised and all are inclusive? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Sukinder: > mean a "person meditating". Or else you believe that a person who > follows a certain tradition of practice concentrating on the breath > or sensations, that such a person *is* developing satipatthana. Is > this your position? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha did say 'Idha bhikkhu arannagato vaa rukkhamuulagato > vaa > > sunnaagaaragato vaa nisiidati pallanka.m aabhujitva ujum kaayam > > panidhaaya parimukhi sati.m upatthapetva. So satovo assa sati, > satova > > passa sati. Diigha.m vaa assa santo ''dhiigha.m assassaamii'ti > > pajaanaati, dhiigha.m vaa passa santo ...' > > The Buddha did say about 'breath'. > > > > My position is to straighten the curve. I am not showing any ego, I > > am not selling any ego. Sukinder: Can you translate and give your interpretation of the above? Please do include context and who according to you the audiences were. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have asked you above. As I have repeatedly did these before, this time it is your turn. Please post 'a part' of mahasatipatthana that is anapana pabba only to see whether you post 'formal meditation or not'. You already said, 'Tipitaka is no much'. So I am not asking you to post Tipitaka but just a part of anapana pabba of mahasatipatthana. After you do, I will post my own. With much respect, Htoo Naing PS: If I do not appear for a while, it is because of conditions and I do not have any control. I may be away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > May you be free from suffering. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing Sukinder: I am quite behind in my reading and I just saw that many new posts have come in. I hope one of them is a reply by you to Ken H. which I am looking forward to. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have good memory like you. I forgot what i replied to Ken H. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45009 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:58am Subject: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Rob K discussion part 1. Dear Htoo, Thanks for you postive reponse. I go little by little and ask for you comment on every point in each post. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) Do not worry. As long as I have enough time, I will. This means when not enough time and not accessible then I will be away from discussion. This is not because I do not want to learn Dhamma and discuss Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: 1. Many Buddhist who join dsg cite modern teachers as evidence for this or that practice. Recently you mentioned Mahasi Sayadw, Pa Auk, and U Ba Khin and other teachers as evidence of those who teach some formal practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because they open the centre and they formally teach how to meditate. I do not have any will to downgrade or upgrade anyone. I hope you clearly see what I have in my mind regarding these teachers and the word 'formal practice'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I have to say I do not believe this is the right way - in these days- to approach Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know others' method. Mine is to investigate. What I am doing is investigating. Even now, I am investigating. That is I do have open mind. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: You were away from dsg a little while back when I posted an artilce from www.nibbana.com where the mahasi people were defending themselves against some strong criticism from Pa Auk. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not aware of that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: In fact now Pa Auks books have been banned in Burma as Mahasi method has become orthodox. The big controverises in the early days of mahsi are forgotton (not that I agree with Pa Auk).] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not aware of these. But when I first heard Mahasi method, I felt that it was a bit different from others. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Or I saw a comment by a past editor of The light of Dhamma alluding to a layteacher (who I was informed was U Ba Khin) and how he was very contoverial at that time (in the sixties) . But now it becomes orthodoxy in burma - and new students have no idea, they take it all on board. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not good at language. Please re-write above paragraph with other way or other words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I never used to bother putting in teachers nmmes as I thought simply explain Dhamma and those who can see will understand. Now I think there is so much attachment to the modern teachers that it is necessary to bring these matters up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. For me, I do not attach any teachers. But from reading your sentences above, I remember someone (I forgot his or her name) who said 'Mahaasi saranam gacchaami' 'Dhammam saranam gacchaami' 'Sangham saranam gacchaami' Shocking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: These moderns appeal because they alwasy have a short cut that involves much effort . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What I see is balanced teaching. Balanced practice. Especially at a centre. I did not find 'someone producing much effort'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ?@But effort is not hard to invoke - it comes with both kusala and akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know viriya or effort is one of 6 pakinnaka cetasika or 6 particular mental factors and can accompany akusala cittas, kusala cittas, abyakata cittas. There are 73 cittas that viriya can accompany. So just viriya or effort means nothing from view point of whether akusala or kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Hard to see which is which. Still becuase anyone can make effort they are very popular. I give an example. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.?@I told her I was staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her father. He came out and aksed me about Dhamma and meditation and so on. All based on this glowing skin. Actually what it was was a purified type of lobha was conditioning this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- There are 10 on the way, which will definitely hinder arising of nana. 1. glow 2. joy 3. calm 4. belief 5. effort 6. peace 7. penetrativity 8. mindfulness 9. balance 10.very subtle lobha I did find 'mindfulness'. I did find 'penetrativity'. I did find 'joy'. I did find 'calm'. I did find 'belief' and others. This is normal. And these are like milestones. Once I was told that my face is like 'glowing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Delusion - but taken as the right way. So wrong effort was producing wrong concentration and ..... We have to strive to become independent to become our own refuge in the Dhamma - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with you. I take my own refuge. :-) But when I said this I was severely attacked that 'this is not from tipitaka'. You know who is who, :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: and that only comes by insight into what sati really is. If we can get that far then the right path will open, it can't be hurried. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do know that no one can hurry and no dhamma can be hurried. But we do need to encourage learning. This invloves practical matters. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But if we attach to the teacher we will not be able to pass through. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once I was asked 'Htoo, do you attached to Buddha's teachings?' :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: We have to look at the modern teachers critically, do they conform with Dhamma. Or are there little flags up where they add something new. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do investigation. But I never go doubtful. When you re-read my post of 'Vipassana and Mahasatipatthana', you will see there what I do. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45010 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally, one > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is almost never the > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an advanced > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the rest of > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of lack of > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A mindstream > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good condition for an > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Moreover, in the presence of enormous upset > there is almost never much clarity either. So, as I see it, the sacrificing of > clarity for a degree of calm at the time of death is not a bad choice at all. > > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard, Christine, I agree with Howard. It is not the choice for clarity. As you know cittas cannot be controlled and they are not as we want them. So practically it is good to help with pain relief. If I am in pain when dying, I would choose to receive pain relief. Then I will pass away without much pain. Kamma racing and cittas that arise at that time cannot be controlled and we do not need to be afraid our old kamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45011 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:23am Subject: Re: Accumulations buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Could you please describe or define precisely what "accumulations" means and how anusaya accumulation operates, according to the Abhidhamma? What are the paccayas for accumulation? The English meanings are 1. action or process of accumulating; being accumulated (e.g. Little things grow by continual accumulation). 2. that which is accumulated or has accumulated; mass; collection (e.g. accumulation of snow.) McMillan Dictionary, 1984. Now let take the snow accumulation as an example. Say, now I see snow accumulation on the ground after a few days of snowing. Where did it come from? It came from water vapors in the air precipitated by low air temperature at or near a saturation point. When the condition is right we'll see snow accumulations again. Snow accumulation is not permanent -- snow melts and vaporizes; new accumulations do not come from the same water vapor. Is this snow accumulation process similar to the accumulation of good or bad qualities you were talking about? I know that they are not at the same level, but it is useful to start from Accumulations 101. > N:Each citta that arises and falls away is succeeded by a following >citta and thus all accumulated good and bad inclinations, all >experiences in life are as it were carried on to the next citta. >That is why not only kamma, but also latent tendencies, >and good qualities are accumulated. Thank you so much for your time and effort to explain accumulations, cetasikas and cittas for me. Your convincing logical deduction, and beautiful and smooth writing style always delight me greatly. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, Hasituppada and all, > > A very important question about accumulations, it has a far reaching > influence on how we see the practice, I think. > First some general remarks. Each citta falls away together with the > accompanying cetasikas, they are impermanent. At the same time, we can notice that good and bad qualities are accumulated, so that similar ones arise again. Not the same ones. 45012 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:37am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: . > >> Rob K: > > You were away from dsg a little while back when I posted an artilce > from www.nibbana.com where the mahasi people were defending > themselves against some strong criticism from Pa Auk. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: I am not aware of that. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, here is the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43650 I think it is not so much a matter of whether Mahasi is right or wrong but the fact that students now take his method as being authoritative. They then think they are having sati by concentrating on a body part or foot while walking, or element or abdomen. The same with Goenka's methods, what was once controversial is now taken as right. It is not hard to experience subtle sensations but people mistake this for the stage of insight into anicca. But this path has been laid out by the Buddha, not by later teachers, we have to be so true to what is real, not assume any unusual experience is something deep. ==================== Rob K: > > Or I saw a comment by a past editor of The light of Dhamma alluding > to a layteacher > ------------------------------------------------- --------------------- > Htoo: I am not good at language. Please re-write above paragraph with > other way or other words. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Let's just say the editor wasn't convinced the results were right. Again who is right here is not the main point, it is the uncritical attachment to the teachers or to strange experiences from concentrating that is the problem. ========== >> 'Mahaasi saranam gacchaami' > 'Dhammam saranam gacchaami' > 'Sangham saranam gacchaami' > > Shocking? > --------------- Yes, not right attitude.. ====================------------------------------------------------- ------ > Rob K: > > These moderns appeal because they always have a short cut that > involves much effort . > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: What I see is balanced teaching. Balanced practice. Especially > at a centre. I did not find 'someone producing much effort'. ====== Ok I leave that point. ============ > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > ?@But effort is not hard to invoke - it comes with both kusala > and > akusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I know viriya or effort is one of 6 pakinnaka cetasika or 6 > particular mental factors and can accompany akusala cittas, kusala > cittas, abyakata cittas. There are 73 cittas that viriya can > accompany. So just viriya or effort means nothing from view point of > whether akusala or kusala. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - Yes, so if we know this we should be VERY careful when trying to understand satipatthana which is the most profound path. > Rob K: > > I give an example. In the late eighties I was staying at a vipassana > center in Thailand, several months. One day I had to go into the > town to renew my visa or something. I went into a shop and someone > said my complexion was so clear. And then in another shop a girl > asked me why I looked so bright and glowing.?@I told her I was > staying at a the center (which she knew) and she went and got her > father. He came out and aksed me about Dhamma and meditation and so > on. All based on this glowing skin. > Actually what it was was a purified type of lobha was conditioning > this phenomena. But I was proud of it and thought it a good thing. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > There are 10 on the way, which will definitely hinder arising of nana. > > 1. glow > 2. joy > 3. calm > 4. belief > 5. effort > 6. peace > 7. penetrativity > 8. mindfulness > 9. balance > 10.very subtle lobha > > I did find 'mindfulness'. I did find 'penetrativity'. I did > find 'joy'. I did find 'calm'. I did find 'belief' and others. This > is normal. And these are like milestones. > > Once I was told that my face is like 'glowing'. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- But - at least in my case- not a milestone. Only the result of wrong concentration --- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I agree with you. I take my own refuge. :-) But when I said this I > was severely attacked that 'this is not from tipitaka'. You know who > is who, :-)) > ------------------------------------------------------------------- ::)) ----------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > and that only comes by insight into what sati really > is. If we can get that far then the right path will open, it can't > be hurried. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I do know that no one can hurry and no dhamma can be hurried. But we > do need to encourage learning. This invloves practical matters. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but only in the right way. Not a blanket praise for anyone who sits down and tries to concentrate. ============== I'll try to write some more tommorow. RobertK 45013 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:18am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding, Walking Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo, KenH, and Sukinder - I thought I did not have to explain why walking meditation was important, or explain about the object of walking meditation. But since KenH and other members have kept on ridiculing it , I have no choice but to respond. I might have been a little careless about what is the "object of satipatthana" and what is not. I have preferred the term "meditation object" for the sake of communication, e.g. leg movements during walking meditation are the object of meditation. But walking meditation is not exactly the same as the Buddha's Iriyapatha Pabba in Kayanupassana section of DN 22. Meditation teachers use walking meditation to keep the mind from wandering outside the body, to train for awareness, and to fight torpor after a long sitting meditation. If you try it, you too will know that it is quite useful as a meditation tool, not just strictly for realizing "the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta" as KenH stated. An excerpt below should give you a good reading on "walking meditation". "At our meditation retreats, yogis practice mindfulness in four different postures. They practice mindfulness when walking, when standing, when sitting, and when lying down. They must sustain mindfulness at all times in whatever position they are in. The primary posture for mindfulness meditation is sitting with legs crossed, but because the human body cannot tolerate this position for many hours without changing, we alternate periods of sitting meditation with periods of walking meditation. Since walking meditation is very important, I would like to discuss its nature, its significance, and the benefits derived from its practice. "Unfortunately, I have heard people criticize walking meditation, claiming that they cannot derive any benefits or good results from it. But it was the Buddha himself who first taught walking meditation. In the Great Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness, the Buddha taught walking meditation two times. In the section called "Postures," he said that a monk knows "I am walking" when he is walking, knows "I am standing" when he is standing, knows "I am sitting" when he is sitting, and knows "I am lying down" when he is lying down. In another section called "Clear Comprehension," the Buddha said, "A monk applies clear comprehension in going forward and in going back." Clear comprehension means the correct understanding of what one observes. To correctly understand what is observed, a yogi must gain concentration, and in order to gain concentration, he must apply mindfulness. Therefore, when the Buddha said, "Monks, apply clear comprehension," we must understood that not only clear comprehension must be applied, but also mindfulness and concentration. Thus the Buddha was instructing meditators to apply mindfulness, concentration, and clear comprehension while walking, while "going forward and back." Walking meditation is thus an important part of this process". ... .... .... "As yogis carry on the practice, they will observe much more. When they lift their foot, they will experience the lightness of the foot. When they push the foot forward, they will notice the movement from one place to another. When they put the foot down, they will feel the heaviness of the foot, because the foot becomes heavier and heavier as it descends. When they put the foot on the ground, they will feel the touch of the heel of the foot on the ground. Therefore, along with observing lifting, moving forward, putting down, and pressing the ground, yogis will also perceive the lightness of the rising foot, the motion of the foot, the heaviness of the descending foot, and then the touching of the foot, which is the hardness or softness of the foot on the ground. When yogis perceive these processes, they are perceiving the four essential elements (in Pali, dhatu)." From: The Benefits of Walking Meditation by Sayadaw U Silananda. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl137.html Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > > The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas > understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of > satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much > the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he > is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately > real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned > phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and > anatta. > > That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on > walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying > that learning to the present moment. > > Ken H > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Ken H, Tep, and all, > > 'Sonasingaala dayopi gacchantaa gacchaamaati jaananti'. Dogs, foxes > know when they go. But such knowing is not satipatthana. > Satipatthaana explains well. > > It is The Buddha words that say 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti > pajaanaati'. This is conventional talking. The practitioner will > sense with his own sense. > > Senses can only sense senses. Not concepts. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45014 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? buddhistmedi... Hi Chris, Howard and Htoo - It was a very thoughtful and interesting question, Chris. Howard's observation is very true - without sedation the dying patient would suffer a great deal. When my third brother was in his last week before dying of colon cancer, the doctor gave him morphine 24 hours a day. Once or twice when the nurse came a little late to give another dose of morphine, he cried out very loud and twisted around -- it was a terrible sight and sound for everyone. There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who refused to take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still are in good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the last minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all the way to the rebirth moment. Did you hear similar stories about the Burmese Sayadaws, Htoo? Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: > Ideally, one > > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is > almost never the > > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an > advanced > > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For > the rest of > > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical > of lack of > > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A > mindstream > > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good > condition for an > > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Moreover, in the presence of > enormous upset > > there is almost never much clarity either. So, as I see it, the > sacrificing of > > clarity for a degree of calm at the time of death is not a bad > choice at all. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard, Christine, > > I agree with Howard. It is not the choice for clarity. As you know > cittas cannot be controlled and they are not as we want them. So > practically it is good to help with pain relief. If I am in pain when > dying, I would choose to receive pain relief. Then I will pass away > without much pain. Kamma racing and cittas that arise at that time > cannot be controlled and we do not need to be afraid our old kamma. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 1, 2005 11:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? nilovg Hi Christine, It all depends on kamma, and we never know. Kamma conditions the last moments and the rebirth. Even when being sedated, we do not have to worry, kamma can do anything. Understanding kamma helps us not to worry. A demented neighbour had a smile on her face when dying. Her husband was very impressed. Nina. op 01-05-2005 11:34 schreef Christine Forsyth op cforsyth1@...: 'As you all know the state of mind at the moment of death is critical > in conditioning the next rebirth. 45016 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 1:40pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Ken H and MN 62 buddhistmedi... Dear KenH- Please read my old message about Abhidhamma and Sutta Pitaka with Nina in a discussion not long ago: -------------------------------------------- Dear Nina - In the message # 40689, you wrote: > Understanding one's citta, that is Abhidhamma. People are inclined to think > of books when they hear the word Abhidhamma. > As to aiming at practising soon after the reading: let us combine reading, > considering, and verifying in life, this is already a beginning. If one sets > a time it seems like directing the citta. T: Thank you so much for preaching the Abhidhamma with the common sense of one who sees clearly. Because of you, the image of "Abhidhamma books" in my mind is now replaced bythe "Higher Dhamma" in the suttas. And the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka morphed into one meaningful whole -- the Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------- So you see that I have no problem understanding Nina's interpretation that the Abhidhamma and the suttas form an integral whole of the Tipitaka. Unfortunately, your understanding of what Nina and I understand is off-track. The following extracts from your message (# 44981) show your misunderstandings and a need for more education: KenH : Many DSG members consider the Abhidhamma-pitaka to be a late addition to the Pali Canon. They choose to practise samatha and vipassana in ways that can be reconciled with parts of the Sutta-pitaka provided those parts are read in isolation from the Abhidhamma- pitaka and the ancient commentaries... Tep: So you say Tep is one of these "many DSG members" who are ignorant because we do not consult the Abhidhamma-pitaka while we "practise samatha and vipassana". You are wrong, Ken. The sutta- pitaka is complete with respect to samatha-vipassana and eradication of asavas, tanha and avijja. For example, MN 2 (Sabbasava Sutta), MN 38(Maha-tanhasankhaya Sutta), MN 117(Mahacattarisaka Sutta), MN 118(Anapanasati Sutta), MN 119(Kayagatasati Sutta), MN 149 (Mahasalayatanika Sutta), SN XXII.59(Anattalakhana Sutta) cover everything for you to know and to do all the way to Nibbana. DN 22 gives a comprehensive practice of satipatthana; it is also complete. You don't need to lean on the Abhidhamma-pitaka which is very difficult to understand. I have read it and that's how I feel. KenH: The commentaries (e.g., to the Satipatthana Sutta) indicate that your form of Buddhist meditation is not found in the Pali Canon. ... ... I think Htoo insists that his (your) meditation techniques are the genuine teaching of the Buddha but, because Ananda did not recount them, they were never included in the Pali Canon. Tep: I have no clear idea what you were talking about, Ken. Be more specific -- give me the proof. BTW. Tell me: is the set of suttas given above not "included in the Pali Canon"? I've gradually practiced using most of the suttas in this set (see above) plus DN 22. My walking meditation is based on the Visuddhimagga and DN 22. I have also tried the walking meditation by Sayadaw U Silananda ( ithe reference is provided in another post I wrote to you and Htoo earlier this afternoon). I even studied Goenka's method of Vedana Contemplation to expand my experience. A practitioner cannot be lazy, Ken. He tries several methods and learns a lot from experience. He does not daydream or points his finger to find fault with other people. Doing that is not acceptable by any true Buddhist. -------------------------------------- T: > So why don't you (please kindly) tell me about how >the "practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient >commentaries" is different from "the practice described by >Hasituppada and Tep"? -------------------------------------- KenH: The conditioned dhammas (eye-consciousness, ear- consciousness, visible object, audible object, etc., etc.) described by the Buddha are not the same as our concepts of seeing, hearing, sights and sounds etc. We have to understand that. When we have understood it, we can go on to learn about those conditioned dhammas in detail. Learning leads to intellectual understanding, which leads to direct understanding, which leads to penetrative knowledge of the four noble truths and release from samsara. Tep: So why did the Lord Buddha recommend breathing meditation to his own son, Rahula [see MN 62]? Even the Great Arahant Sariputta recommended Anapanasati to Rahula! Why? "Venerable Sariputta saw venerable Rahula seated cross, legged at the root of a certain tree, the body straight and mindfulness established in front of him. He said,`Rahula, develop in breathing and out breathing. When, in- and out breathing is developed and made much, it brings good results and benefits'. ..." MN 62 Maha-rahulovada Sutta. And why did the Great Sage tell Rahula to practice Kayagatasati Kammatthana, using the 32 parts of the body -- all of them are concepts? "Rahula, all that's in this body.That are hard and rough and thought are yours.Such as hair of the head and body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, veins, bones, bone marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, small intestines, stomach and excreta, or anything else that is internal, your own, hard and rough is called internal earth element. This internal earth element and the external earth element, all that goes as the earth element." MN 62 Maha-rahulovada Sutta. KenH: The Buddha taught Abhidhamma, and so the people who heard the suttas understood that the concept of walking could never be an object of satipatthana. When you and I know we are walking, we know it in much the same way as an animal knows it. However, when an ariyan knows he is walking, he has right understanding. He knows the only ultimately real body is rupa, and he directly knows rupa to be a conditioned phenomenon with the inherent characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. That kind of understanding will never come from concentration on walking. It comes from learning about nama and rupa and by applying that learning to the present moment. Tep: The walking (one of the 4 body postures) is a "body in the body" and it is a legitimate object of kayanupassana. Also read the Visuddhimagga page 664. XX, 62. I already gave a reply to you in the other post today. I also provided a link to a Walking Meditation paper to educate you a little! Indeed, you probably need a lot more education about the Buddhasasana. Respectfully & sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > ----------------------- > KenH : > > > > The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. > > > ............ > T: > Oh, I did not know that! > ------------------------- > > Sorry, Tep, I genuinely thought that you did. Many DSG members > consider the Abhidhamma-pitaka to be a late addition to the Pali > Canon. They choose to practise samatha and vipassana in ways that can be reconciled with parts of the Sutta-pitaka provided those > parts are read in isolation from the Abhidhamma-pitaka and the > ancient commentaries (as well as from certain other parts of the > Sutta-pitaka). > > 45017 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Chris and Htoo) - In a message dated 5/1/05 2:20:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who refused to > take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we > should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still are in > > good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the last > > minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all the > way to the rebirth moment. ==================== It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive accumulations to attain such a level! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45018 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ======================= > Here's an opinion - only my opinion, and not Dhamma: Ideally, one > should pass on in a state of clarity and calm. This, however, is almost never the > case, for at least one is typically missing. For a person who is an advanced > practitioner, attaining both of these is closer to possible. For the rest of > us, this is rarely so. It seems to me that the more problematical of lack of > clarity and lack of calm at the moment of death is lack of calm. A mindstream > torn by pain, fear, regret and perhaps anger is not in good condition for an > auspicious rebirth, it seems to me. Hi Howard (and All), Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. Your post is very intriguing to me (as well as Christine's question). I did some research into the Tibetian Book of the Dead for some possible answers to this issue. I was interesting to see that, according to Tibetian Buddhism, you are correct in stating that calm is the most important factor for a favorable rebirth. It seems that when a person dies he/she is confronted with the karma of his/her lifetime, very much like remembering a dream upon waking. This review of the "Ordinary Life Bardo" can have actual images from the lifetime or it can be symbolic, but the predominately positive or negative energy of the karma confronts the consciousness of the dying person and results in either a reaction of calm or fear/agitation/confusion of the consciousness. The calm response results in rebirth in the higher realms and the fearful response results in rebirth in the lower realms. Unfortunately, this process is so automatic that the consciousness doesn't have much opportunity to *will* a calm response in the face of negative karma. Therefore, living a stain-free life is the most guaranteed way for a favorable rebirth, as the Buddha taught. Of course the Buddha didn't teach anything about this subject, but it stands to reason that he wouldn't care to. He taught only suffering and the path leading to the cessation of suffering, he didn't teach the details of death and how to have a favorable rebirth. However, that isn't to say the Tibetians are wrong about this matter. Just something to consider. Metta, James http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/dead/index2.html 45019 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, KEN > 'Paramattha dhammas' is the Pali name for 'absolute realities.' So, rather than 'nothing to do with reality' they are 'everything to do with reality.' They are mental phenomena and physical phenomena (in Pali: namas and rupas). There are three kinds of nama. They are consciousness (citta), mental factors (cetasikas) and Nibbana. There are twenty-eight kinds of rupa, which include all the objects of sense consciousness and the physical bases of contact. There are six types of citta. They are the five sense consciousnesses and mind consciousness. And there are fifty-two types of 'cetasika.' They are sanna (perception), vedana (feeling), cetana (volition), phassa (contact), lobha (attachment), alobha (non-attachment), . . . . and so on. ..................................................................................... In the first paragraph, what do you mean by "the physical bases of contact"? do you mean the sense organs? What are the twenty-eight kinds of rupa? So, what are non absolute realties, and what is not real? *********************************************************** Ken> At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. .......................................................................... How is knowing one of the namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment, a way to lose attachment and infatuation for it? ***************************** KEN > The first four are cetasikas {saddha, vicikiccha, adosa, dosa}, and the fifth (anatta, soullessness) is one the inherent characteristics of cetasikas. (It is also an inherent characteristic of cittas, rupas and Nibbana.) .................................................................. I can see that I am getting old, it is too easy for me to get lost in trying to remember all the definitions so that I could understand what is being said. ************************************************* Ken> An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of every-day life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. .............................................................................................. It is interesting, after reading this post I am starting to realize that the Abidharma focuses on trying to the reader a view (i.e., wisdom) of the world, and from this view, the rest should fall into place. For this view to work, morality and concentration would have to be inherent to the wisdom, or they would have to be preconditions/prerequisites. *********************************************************** KEN> As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. ..................................................... I hope you realize that this is just one of the paths to enlightenment? ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau <....> Hi Charles, I was saying: ----------------------------- > > At any point in time, including now, there are really only paramattha dhammas. The reason for studying the Buddha's teaching is to know those dhammas. ------------------------------ To which you replied: ----------------------------------------------- > To me, the paramittas are six in number and they have nothing to do with reality or nature. They are about mental factors like generosity. -------------------------- 'Paramattha dhammas' is the Pali name for 'absolute realities.' So, rather than 'nothing to do with reality' they are 'everything to do with reality.' <....> 45020 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. dacostacharles Very interesting, the previous post. I especially like: "'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow'." I guess that is also why we need to be carefull when judging if another is on the right track. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 28 April, 2005 18:38 Subject: [dsg] Re: Intellectual Understanding, no 2, jhana. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Meditation teachers give their comments, and advice, but in the last instance everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow. Nina. -------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Tep, Matheesha, 'everyone has to find out for himself what the way is he should follow'. As soon as I saw this sentence, I remember a saying 'attaahi attano naatho'. Even The Buddha just did as a guide. The Buddha could not create arahatta magga nana for others. The problem is the word 'understanding'. Real understanding is at magga kaala. Otherwise everything before sotapanship is just a copy of others. That is not realization. Htoo Naing 45021 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. And by the way, I should emphases that not every Buddhist believes this. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: mnease To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 16 April, 2005 20:13 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Hi Tep and Sarah, Hope you don't mind my butting in. First, Tep, I really appreciate your very civil and well-researched messages and citations. I also think the latter are perfectly to the point. Would you agree that in all your citations, the Buddha's instructions were given to bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, would you agree that it's a fair question as to whether or not instructions to professional, full-time yogis observing the paatimokkha are entirely pertinent to the practice of modern laypeople? Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. mike 45022 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Like and colours (was Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realites) philofillet Hi Larry > I'd like to take the liberty of starting a thread about what you > raise below. (The other topic seems much more general) It's one of > the things I've been wondering about - the intrinsic pleasantness of > visible objects etc. This will give me a chance to understand it a > little better. Thanks. I just re-read the previous post and found that it contained about 20 questions, all of them spawned by your one short comment, which was obviously very interesting to me. Feel free to choose one or two that are of interest to you and we can start from there. Metta, Phil 45023 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. And by the way, I should emphases that not every Buddhist believes this. > > CharlesD > ----- Original Message ----- > From: mnease Can you cite from the > discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that > he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If > so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. > mike > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi Charles D and Mike, I haven't been following this thread but the Buddha did teach laypeople to practice the jhanas: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion": Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) Thus should you train yourselves." When he heard this, the Venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: "It is wonderful, Lord! It is marvelous, Lord! How well spoken was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." "Good, good, Sariputta!" (The Buddha then repeats the Venerable Sariputta's words in full.) Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. James: I don't wish to get into an extended debate on this matter, but I thought I would offer the sutta quotation since it was requested. Metta, James 45024 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Like and colours lbidd2 Hi Phil, I'm venturing into uncharted territory here, but it isn't new territory and I don't think my *tentative* conclusions are inconsistent with abhidhamma. It seems to me that conventional reality isn't so much concept as inferred or assumed reality. I am taking conventional reality to be multiple layers of compact wholes. By 'compact whole' I mean a combination of ultimate realities. Because this is a group of ultimate realities we could say it is dependently arisen and performs functions. But, on the other hand, it isn't a direct object of consciousness. It is only an inferred object of consciousness because only one ultimate reality at a time can be an object of consciousness. So this group partakes of characteristics of both concept and reality. The classic example is a person or a chariot. A person isn't a word or symbol, so, strictly speaking, a person isn't a concept. A person isn't a direct object of consciousness either, so a person isn't a reality. We could say a person is empty of ultimate reality but, in a way, dependently arisen. I am saying a person is conventional reality. Here's one way to see this: look at a face. Get a sense of it as a whole. Then look at the eyes; then look at the mouth. Back and forth between eyes and mouth. Get a sense of these as individual elements. Then look at the face again as a whole. Here you might be able to see the emptiness of the face. Notice that we are not rejecting the whole (conventional reality). Without the whole there isn't any emptiness. Rather, we are investigating the ultimate nature of conventional reality. Now, back to the original question: Why do you, Phil, think you don't understand blue? I said I don't understand blue because I like it. This was based on the reasoning that if I properly understood blue I wouldn't like it. I don't know if this is 100% valid, but it's what I came up with. You probably have a different view. What is it? The reason I asked this question is because I don't think the problem is with not understanding ultimate realities. I think the problem is with not understanding the ultimate nature of conventional reality. Everyone understands blue. Blue is blue. That's all there is to it. But usually we add something, "blue is nice". This adding up of ultimate realities is how we create conventional reality. This is what needs to be investigated. Below is a note from Visuddhimagga on 'compact wholes'. Larry ---------------------- Vism.XXI,n.3. Cf. Pe. 128. In the commentary to the Aayatana-Vibha.nga we find: 'Impermanence is obvious, as when a saucer (say) falls and breaks; ... pain is obvious, as when a boil (say) appears in the body; ... the characteristic of not-self is not obvious; ... Whether Perfect Ones arise or do not arise the characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known, but unless there is the arising of a Buddha the characteristic of not-self is not made known' (VbhA. 49-50, abridged for clarity). Again, in the commentary to Majjhima Nikaaya Sutta 22: 'Having been, it is not, therefore it is impermanent; it is impermanent for four reasons, that is, in the sense of the state of rise and fall, of change, of temporariness, and of denying permanence. It is painful on account of the mode of oppression; it is painful for four reasons, that is, in the sense of burning, of being hard to bear, of being the basis for pain, and of opposing pleasure ... It is not-self on account of the mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power; it is not-self for four reasons, that is, in the sense of voidness, of having no owner-master, of having no Overlord, and of opposing self' (MA.ii113, abridged for clarity). Commenting on this Vis. paragraph [not given here, Larry], Pm. says: ' "When continuity is disrupted" means when continuity is exposed by observing the perpetual otherness of states as they go on occurring in succession. For it is not through the connectedness of states that the characteristic of impermanence becomes apparent to one who rightly observes rise and fall, but rather the characteristic becomes more thoroughly evident through their disconnectedness, as if they were iron darts. "When the postures are exposed" means when the concealment of the pain that is actually inherent in the postures is exposed. For when pain arises in a posture, the next posture adopted removes the pain, as it were, concealing it. But once it is correctly known how the pain in any posture is shifted by substituting another posture for that one, then the concealment of the pain that is in them is exposed because it has become evident that formations are being incessantly overwhelmed by pain. "Resolution of the compact" is effected by resolving [what appears compact] in this way, "The earth element is one, the water element is another" etc., distinguishing each one; and in this way, "Contact is one, feeling is another" etc., distinguishing each one. "When the resolution of the compact is effected" means that what is compact as a mass and what is compact as a function or as an object has been analyzed. For when material and immaterial states have arisen mutually steadying each other, [mentality and materiality, for example,] then, owing to misinterpreting that as a unity, compactness of mass is assumed through failure to subject formations to pressure. And likewise compactness of function is assumed when, although definite differences exist in such and such states' functions, they are taken as one. And likewise compactness of object is assumed when, although differences exist in the ways in which states that take objects make them their objects, those objects are taken as one. But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident' (Pm.824). 45025 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 171 - the word should. lbidd2 Nina: "the Buddha says: Bhikkhus, do not be neglectful. Be aware. His words can be a condition to be aware at this moment." Hi Nina, Excellent. I like this example of prompted insight. Not control, but a 'possible' condition. Larry 45026 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 5:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 156, and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for all this detail. It gives me a glimpse of how rich experience is. Larry 45027 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 1, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/1/05 7:05:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard (and All), > > Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. ==================== Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit hectic but wonderful. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45028 From: "mnease" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 8:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Charles, Nice to hear from you-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating > absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. Agreed on both counts, Charles--and when the conditions are (or were) present I think this is (or was) the ideal situation. A cursory search of 'pabbajjaa' will bear this out, I think. > And by the way, I should emphases that not > every Buddhist believes this. No indeed, the suttas tell of many laypeople attaining the various paths and some Buddhists acknowledge this. Whether either or both of these ways are available today is a matter of opinion to be sure. What is clear from all the texts, I think, is that with or without jhaana or ordination, insight into present dhammas is the key. mike 45029 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? buddhistmedi... Dear Howard - > Howard: It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive accumulations to attain such a level! > Yes indeed! I am glad that you have not changed (brainwashed?) no matter how many times others rejected jhana "mastery" as nonsense. You are lucky to have attained at least the second jhana -- if my memory did not fail me, I remembered reading and congratulating you on your jhana experience (you were talking about it in a few posts at the Triplegem Website). Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Chris and Htoo) - > > In a message dated 5/1/05 2:20:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > There are real stories about several Thai forest monks who refused to > > take any pain killers, yet they died peacefully. My thought is that we > > should also train ourselves in tranquillity meditation while we still are in > > > > good health, before it is too late. With the regular training, when the last > > > > minute finally comes, we will be able to retain the mental clarity all the > > way to the rebirth moment. > ==================== > It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently to sail > through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have the > fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive accumulations to attain > such a level! > > With metta, > Howard > 45030 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:15pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results foamflowers Aïguttara Nikàya 005. Mahàyaavaggo -The great sacrifices 1. Sattaviànaññhitisuttaü-The seven stations for consciousness. 10. Nandamàtàsuttaü- The female lay disciple Nanda. I found several different translations of this sutta online. Some lay disciples were skilled in even the highest reaches of meditation. Here, Uttara Nandamata, the foremost female devotee in jhana practice, explains to Venerable Sariputta how she knew in advance of the Sangha's arrival. A passing deity, as a stream-enterer Nandamata's brother in the Dhamma, stopped to hear her chanting. `Having arisen in the night before dawn, Bhante, and chanted the "Way to the Beyond"[16], "I was silent. Then Great King Vessavana, realizing that I had finished reciting, congratulated me: "Sadhu, sister! Sadhu, sister!" ` "But who is this of majestic countenance?" ` "I, sister, am your brother, Great King Vessavana. ` "Sadhu, Your Majesty! May this passage of Dhamma which I have chanted be my gift to you." ` "Sadhu, sister! Then let this be a gift for me: tomorrow the Sangha of monks headed by Sariputta and Moggallana will arrive here at Velukantaka without having eaten. Having fed the Sangha of monks may you dedicate the offering to me, then that will be a gift for me." `So let the merit of this offering be for the happiness of Great King Vessavana.' `It is wonderful, Nandamata, it is marvelous that you should converse face to face with Great King Vessavana, a deity of such great psychic power and potency!' `This is not my only wonderful and marvelous quality, Bhante.... When rulers for some reason took my dear beloved son by force and killed him.... I know of no change in my mind.... `When my husband, who had passed away and re-arisen in a spirit world, revealed himself to me in his old form, I know of no change in my mind on that account.... `Since I was a maiden brought to my youthful husband, I know of no transgression against him in thought, how then in body?... `Since I declared myself a lay devotee, I know of no deliberate violation of any training rule.... `As far as I wish, I enter and abide in the first jhana ... second jhana ... third jhana ... fourth jhana... `I do not see any of the five lower fetters taught by the Blessed One un-abandoned in me....' 'Wonderful, Nandamata! Marvelous, Nandamata!' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, when I desire, secluding my mind from sensual desires and demeritorious things, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I abide in the first higher state of mind. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, the mind in one point, internally appeased with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I abide in the second higher state of mind. With equanimity to joy and disenchantment, I experience pleasantness and mindful awareness with the body and attain to the third higher state of mind, to this the noble ones say, mindfully abiding in pleasantness with equanimity. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, cleaning the mind so that it is without unpleasantness and pleasàntness I attain to the fourth higher state of mind" ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." ßVenerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, I do not see a single of these bonds binding to the sensual world in me, according to the way declared by The Blessed One.". ß It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." Then venerable Sariputta advising, inciting and making the heart light of the female lay disciple Nanda with a talk got up and went away With Metta, Lisa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > Nice to hear from you-- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Charles DaCosta" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:12 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > > >>Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you >>have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight >>to reach enlightenment. > >Agreed on both counts, Charles--and when the conditions are (or >were) present I think this is (or was) the ideal situation. A >cursory search of pabbajjaa' will bear this out, I think. > >> And by the way, I should emphases that not >> every Buddhist believes this. > >No indeed, the suttas tell of many laypeople attaining the various >paths and some Buddhists acknowledge this. Whether either or both of >these ways are available today is a matter of opinion to be sure. >What is clear from all the texts, I think, is that with or without >jhaana or ordination, insight into present dhammas is the key. > > mike 45031 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 1, 2005 9:43pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and Nina - > Ph: And it's not as passive as it might sound. "Conditions can be > cultivated" is something I have learned. A moment of shame of > akusala, for example, will condition another one, though we don't > know when it will arise. We can be confident that we are making > progress moment by moment as long as we don't cling to results. --------- N: That is it. Therefore I tried to explain to Tep about accumulations. It gives us more confidence in accumulating kusala and understanding, even if it is a little at a time. No passivity, we remember the Buddha's words: do not be neglectful. --------- T: I am for the cultivation of "conditions" too, Phil. But, is it possible that the next moment of shame of another (similar) akusala may be conditioned by "trained" perception (sanna) of the hiri cetasika? It is more or less like the reinforcement technique used by any training school, I guess. T: Nina, is it true that the accumulation process of "kusala and understanding" may be similar to training the perception of the two good cetasikas to replace the perception of akusala and wrong view? I am not convinced by the perpetual accumulation process. The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as Adhicitta-sikkha means. "Seeing that these five hindrances have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated. "Quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, the monk enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. His earlier perception of sensuality ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases. "Then, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, the monk enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. His earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion ceases, and on that occasion there is a perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. On that occasion he is one who is percipient of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration. And thus it is that with training one perception arises and with training another perception ceases". [DN 9: Potthapada Sutta] Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil, > op 01-05-2005 11:50 schreef Philip op philco777@h...: 45032 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:29am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Even though we are only starting to develop the Path events in our life can remind us to be aware now, just as they reminded the Buddha’s disciples. At times we may have doubts about the benefit of sati, or it may happen that we are absorbed by our work or our circle of friends, or we may be infatuated by all the pleasant things of life, without mindfulness of such moments. Although we know in theory that any reality can be object of mindfulness, there may be a long period of sluggishness in our life. However, a painful event such as the loss of someone who is dear to us may remind us of the true nature of reality; this can become our “goad” which stirs us. If we truly see that even one moment of right understanding is beneficial we will have courage to continue with the development of satipaììhåna and then there is right effort which arises because of its own conditions. We can come to understand that life without the development of right understanding is utterly meaningless. ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45033 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: >In my case my mother died > of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days she > was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was > wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who dies > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated > mind effect their rebirth?' .... S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which determine rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other javana cittas in this regard as I understand and I think we can never know about another's last moments, however much we speculate as we simply have no idea about the kamma involved at the time. I don't think there is any reason to believe that the state of lucidity or otherwise has any bearing in this regard. The patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) is again the result of kamma. The commentaries give a lot of detail on this. Chris, when did your mother die? I'm very sorry to hear this and would like to send our condolences to you and your family. I think that last time you mentioned her, she'd been ill in hospital, but was better and home, so I'm a little surprised to hear this, even though I know she was quite elderly and had had health problems for some time. Thinking of you. Please write a little more to tell us which dhamma reminders you are finding helpful at this time and whether we can add any more. ***** "Ko nu haaso kimaanando nicca"m pajjalite sati Andhakaarena onaddhaa padiipa"m na gavessatha" "What is laguhter, what is joy, when the world is ever burning? Shrouded by darkness, would you not seek the light?" Dhp 146 (Narada transl) ***** Metta, Sarah (As you know, there are many goood sutta quotes in U.P. under 'Death') ============================= 45034 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? christine_fo... Dear Sarah, Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his own mother's death and also that of another friend's parent. My own mother is perfectly healthy though quite elderly and a little frail now - growing concerned about her failing sight and hearing. I saw her at SarahF's birthday luncheon last Saturday, where she was happy and enjoying herself. BTW, SarahF said to wish Jon a happy birthday - they share the same day, I think. Thank you for the dhamma reminder - death is so close but we do not see it - if, after an outbreath, there is no inbreath ... metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Chris, > > --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > >In my case my mother died > > of a rapidly progressing type of bone cancer, in her final days she > > was heavily medicated on morphine to control the pain that was > > wracking her body. So the question, what befalls someone who dies > > while in such a "non-lucid" state? How does their afflicted or sedated > > mind effect their rebirth?' > .... > S: As Nina says, the last moments (the last javana cittas which determine > rebirth) are conditioned by kamma. They are unlike all other javana cittas > in this regard as I understand and I think we can never know about > another's last moments, however much we speculate as we simply have no > idea about the kamma involved at the time. I don't think there is any > reason to believe that the state of lucidity or otherwise has any bearing > in this regard. The patisandhi citta (rebirth consciousness) is again the > result of kamma. > > The commentaries give a lot of detail on this. > > Chris, when did your mother die? I'm very sorry to hear this and would > like to send our condolences to you and your family. I think that last > time you mentioned her, she'd been ill in hospital, but was better and > home, so I'm a little surprised to hear this, even though I know she was > quite elderly and had had health problems for some time. > > Thinking of you. Please write a little more to tell us which dhamma > reminders you are finding helpful at this time and whether we can add any > more. > ***** > "Ko nu haaso kimaanando > nicca"m pajjalite sati > Andhakaarena onaddhaa > padiipa"m na gavessatha" > > "What is laguhter, what is joy, > when the world is ever burning? > Shrouded by darkness, > would you not seek the light?" Dhp 146 (Narada transl) > ***** > Metta, > > Sarah > (As you know, there are many goood sutta quotes in U.P. under 'Death') > ============================= 45035 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: Like and colours philofillet Hi Larry > I'm venturing into uncharted territory here, but it isn't new territory > and I don't think my *tentative* conclusions are inconsistent with > abhidhamma. It seems to me that conventional reality isn't so much > concept as inferred or assumed reality. I am taking conventional reality > to be multiple layers of compact wholes. Ph: Thanks for this and the following explanation. A little too complex for me, to tell the truth. But I think it is helping you to better understand the difference between concepts and realities, so that's good. > Now, back to the original question: Why do you, Phil, think you don't > understand blue? I said I don't understand blue because I like it. This > was based on the reasoning that if I properly understood blue I wouldn't > like it. I don't know if this is 100% valid, but it's what I came up > with. You probably have a different view. What is it? I think what you say could be true. If we understand a reality, it means there is bare cognition, just seeing, and we stop at seeing. there is no proliferation. Of course at our level of insight, that is unlikely to happen. Ah, but even with bare congnition, there is feeling. That's a universal with all cittas. But feeling associated with seeing-consciousness is neutral so what you've written above could still be true, I guess. I get confused because I have learned that visible objects are classified as pleasant or unpleasant, that there is something intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant about them. Is that simply because they are kussala or akusala vipaka, the result of kusala or akusala kamma, so we must say there is something intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant about them? I have leared that visible object and colour are more or less the same thing, if I understood correctly. Is a colour like blue intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant? That seems hard to understand for me. On the other hand, we know that visible objects do not give rise to pleasant or unpleasant feeling - feeling arising from eye door objects is always neutral. So this is all confusing for me...Before I took seeing for granted. Now I know how subtle it is. Grateful to the Buddha who came to understand it fully and grateful to my Dhamma friends who are helping to make his teaching on this difficult point a little bit clearer, gradually. Thanks for the Vism passage, and for taking the time to send such a thorough post. I admire the way you (and Howard) really dig hard into experience to make sense out of it. It must be a kind of investigation of dhammas, one of the factors of enlightenment. Unless of course it's just self at work, seeking a subtle form of satisfaction. I'm sure it is sometimes one, sometimes the other. We all have to deal with that in so many ways in our Dhamma study.... Metta, Phil 45036 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? sarahprocter... Hi Chris, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Let me hasten to put you at ease. There is no need for concern. The > post I put on dsg was quoting a Dhamma friend who was mentioning his > own mother's death and also that of another friend's parent. ... S: My mistake - thanks for clarifying. Jon was reading the posts out to me and I was surprised, so when I quickly replied, I didn't see the quote marks. Interested to read all the other comments too. S. 45037 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:18am Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hi Tep > T: I am for the cultivation of "conditions" too, Phil. But, is it possible that > the next moment of shame of another (similar) akusala may be > conditioned by "trained" perception (sanna) of the hiri cetasika? It is > more or less like the reinforcement technique used by any training > school, I guess. "Conditions", of course, refers to paccayadhamma (conditioning states) and paccayuppannadhamma (conditioned states) which are linked together in a very precise way. I throw around the word "conditions" quite loosely because I don't yet understand their working well enough to be more specific - but I am studying, and reflecting on conditions in daily life. I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition (pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough investigation of this all important condition! As for sanna, I have learned that it is a universal cetasika that arises with every citta, and that we misunderstand it if we think of it as perception in the conventional sense. It has a function to assist citta in marking objects, but it comes and goes so quickly that I don't know how we can use it for training kusala. You may have a different approach, and that's fine. Who knows - we both may be right! The Buddha's wisdom is so ineffably deep that it may allow for more than one Right Way. Metta, Phil 45038 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) gazita2002 Hello Phil, and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Nina > > > > Lodewijk: It is quite true that there are nama and rupa. However, > > > we should not forget the following: the conventional world and the > > > world of ultimate realites should not be confused in a discussion, > > > and one should keep their distinction in mind. ....snip..... Phil: BTW, do you remember last year I posted about a moment in which I > was able to see Naomi as paramattha dhammas, but not myself. You and > Lodewijk agreed that you would find it easier to see oneself as nama > and rupa than to see the loved one in those terms - that is much > harder. Well, a year later, now I find that I feel the same way as you > two. It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little > easier to understand myself in those terms. I don't know if that is > because of more attachement to Naomi, or better understanding of > myself. A bit of both, I guess. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: Recently, I was sitting in a crowded place and it was also very noisy. I began to think about seeing, hearing, likes, dislikes and it occurred to me, that when thinking about 'me' as nama and rupa was a whole lot easier than thinking about 'all those others' as nama and rupa. I could somehow relate it more to 'my experience of..' rather than accepting that all the others 'out there' were just arising and falling away. They all seemed more 'solid' than me. Of course, its just a whole lot of thinking going on, but it was an interesting exercise. Its great the way, in the most unexpected situations, some thought of dhamma will arise. Patience, courage and good cheer Azita. 45039 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 3:59am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply sukinderpal Hi Tep, (Htoo*) ============================= Tep: Now, let me make up two lists of items in your message # 44929; the first one consists of your agreeable remarks, and the second list is for the disageeable remarks. Then my response follows. Sukinder's Agreeable Remarks (I) ----------------------------------- 1. Even the understanding of dana and sila is enhanced by pariyatti, thus conditioning more instances of it. All kusala are helpful and should be encouraged. 2. Even to appreciate these [sila, dana or bhavana] theoretically requires panna, how much more so in practice? Tep's Comments on (I): ------------------------- I am sure that we are in agreement with respect to the virues of sila, dana and any kusala dhamma, but I am not sure if our understandings of bhavana are the same. To me bhavana consists of samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. Panna (understanding) knows, while sila and samadhi support panna all the way from the puthujjana level until the lokuttara level. We need panna to guide all activities (talking, writing, etc.) even for babies, and there are several levels of panna. For example, a criminal uses his panna to steal, rob, cheat, and kill others (for money). But we don't want that panna, do we? =Sukinder: Why would you call this panna? Even Einstein's coming upon the Theory of Relativity and formulating e=mc2 does not involve panna. I think panna is specific in knowing at least in theory, the law of kamma, the nature of nama and rupa. And through experience the undesirability of akusala and the good in kusala and the need to develop this. In other words, panna must be accompanied by sati, saddha and many other wholesome cetasikas. So in fact, is our understanding of kusala/ akusala the same? ============================= More Tep's Comments on (I): We have to develop panna by adhipanna sikkha. What we want is the higher understanding that is supported by sila, samadhi, viriya, and full awareness-- not intellectual understanding from reading and thinking only. The taste of panna is in the pudding too. =Sukinder: So given that your understanding of panna in the above is not exactly what it is, and that in fact a moment of panna, even at the level of pariyatti, must be kusala, do you still think about this need for sila, samadhi and viriya to be developed in order to support panna? Of course 'reading and thinking only' can be without panna. But I refer to 'understanding' and not the ability to retain what is read and to recall. Also any reasoning using such knowledge does not necessarily mean that panna is involved. It is not the words, but the understanding that, all this refers to conditioned dhammas arising and fallen away in the present moment. And that some lead to good results and some to bad. This also implying then, that there is also an understanding of comnditionality. ============================= More Tep's Comments on (I): Do you remember the following quote from the Visuddhimagga? 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a Bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. VisM I, 7. =Sukinder: I have never read the Vis. Beyond what is quote here, but I do remember another quote which goes to the effect: "There is Suffering, but no person who suffers. There is a Path, but none who walks it". ============================ More Tep's Comments on (I): Please study the following quote. 'Here training of higher virtue is known by virtue; the training of higher consciousness by concentration (samadhi); and the training of higher understanding by understanding.' VisM I,10. Adhisila sikkha = training of higher virtue. Adhicitta sikkha = training of higher consciousness. Adhipanna sikkha = training of higher understanding. =Sukinder: Every moment of satipatthana involves the development of sila, samadhi and panna. Five or six factors during mundane moments, and all eight, during the supra mundane. Why introduce anything extra? Why must you see them separately? Is it because you identify something you "do" with the idea that one or more of these is being developed? ========================== Sukinder's Debatable Points (II) --------------------------------- 1. Only those cittas that are associated with panna are said to be ever doing the job of slowly moving us away from conditioned realities, towards nibbana. 2. The idea of "doing" and that these must be developed in certain order, is what makes it hard or impossible for any panna to arise to know them as they are. 3. So even though I do not talk about this, it is nevertheless implied in that these [sila, dana or bhavana] are stages which are needed to go through, but not in anyone's control as to when or if they will occur. 4. For you it seems more like something within control and to be done. And of course, you seem to separate sila, Samadhi and panna, thinking that they can and ought to be developed each on their own. To me this is just an abstraction and does not seem to reflect the true nature of reality. 5. However detachment can happen on a momentary level and does reflect in the general outlook of many members here. They know for example that pariyatti is not enough and that this will not lead to the goal without much, much patipatti. 6. Every moment of kusala accumulates and conditions more of the kind. So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna. But like I said above, can we even begin to appreciate sila for example, without any understanding? Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Which level of panna? What trainings (sikkha) are necessary to "move" a person "away from conditioned realities towards nibbana"? =Sukinder: Satipatthana => Vipassana => Magga. ===================== More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 2. But "doing"the right things, in this case the 3 kinds of "training" (sikkha), is the only way to produce a result that "moves" a person "away from conditioned realities towards nibbana" as obvious from the Visuddhimagga quotes above. Are the trainings for visuddhi sila, visuddhi citta, and visuddhi panna not "doing" something and doing it the right way (the Eightfold Path)? =Sukinder: Some would interpret this as saying that there is some action a 'self' has to take. However the Dhamma is about dhammas. These simply perform their function, some towards liberation and some to being more entangled in Samsara. One such example of the latter is wrong view, the idea that dhammas can and should be controlled. ;-) ======================= More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 3. I don't think that 'I' have be 'the one' who 'controls' the Path factors to arise. So we are in agreement here. But the doing nothing because of the fear of 'lobha' and the fear of "self", thinking that they may spring at you, is a wrong view. =Sukinder: There is always a dhamma performing its own function. So what you refer to as 'doing nothing' involves some such dhammas. The right pariyatti would point the need to understand all dhammas arising through all the doorways, and is not just a philosophy to live by. So what you say above as in having a preconceived idea about meditation and acting upon it, is not what I would encourage anyone to do. But have you considered that this might instead involve a level of understanding in the present moment? At least it was for me when I first dropped the idea of meditation. There was some recognition of 'self' in the form of lobha and ditthi at work. And since then I have seen it, though rarely, come and go in other forms in relation to other activities too. ====================== More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 4. For me there is work remains to be done with right effort and right mindfulness, both being guided by right view. =Sukinder: Yes, right effort, right mindfulness and right view, so why factor your `self' into this? I think you should trust dhammas to perform their functions and take self out of the equation. ;-) Tep continues with 4. And of course, I believe in having sila sikkha and citta sikkha to support understanding, thinking that they can be earnestly developed. The idea that sila and samadhi "ought to be developed each on their own" never occurs to me, and it is never on my mind. =Sukinder: But perhaps because up until now you view panna as dry and unsupported by many of the wholesome cetasikas, you have automatically implied a separate practice to support this panna, no? ========================= More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 5. I know that you mean Tep is one of "them". So please show us how "detachment can happen on a momentary level" and "that pariyatti is enough and that this will lead to the goal without much, much patipatti". I would love to do it "the easy way", Sukinder! Only extremely ignorant people would want to do anything the hardest way -- if they knew a much easier way existed. =Sukinder: Maybe writing summaries is not always good ;-). I said the goal *cannot* be reached without much, much patipatti. There is no hard and easy way, but only *one way* and this is not easy even for the best set of accumulations. As to the question of detachment, any moment of right understanding, there is also alobha. But more importantly, in "knowing" one has taken a step away from "not knowing", and this knowledge ever so slightly reduces avijja. This latter being the first link of D.O. More Tep's Questions and Comments on (II): 6. Does the process of kusala accumulation operate like a perpetual- motion machine? By saying, "So sila and samatha both when arisen, will accumulate and support each other and panna", you are talkng like you can go back to your armchair and relax, doing nothing, once you have set your "kusala" running. By the way, since when did you start to accept samatha ? =Sukinder: If the moment is not one of the 10 wholesome courses of action, then it must be akusala. So no, it doesn't work that way that one might decide to relax after doing some good, such a thought is the worst of the lot, namely, wrong view. Every level of kusala should be encouraged, and all such moment could be said to be samatha. But I think you mean to ask my view about samatha development? Sure, I believe in it. However, I don't think the popular view about what it is and how it is developed is correct. It is this that I speak against. =================================== *Htoo: I am going to be occupied with something the next few days. I am not sure when or if I will have the time to respond to your post. So please be patient. Metta, Sukinder 45040 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:15am Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities. (Lodewijk's comment) philofillet Hi Azita, and all It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little > > easier to understand myself in those terms. I don't know if that is > > because of more attachement to Naomi, or better understanding of > > myself. A bit of both, I guess. > Azita: Recently, I was sitting in a crowded place and it was also > very noisy. I began to think about seeing, hearing, likes, dislikes > and it occurred to me, that when thinking about 'me' as nama and rupa > was a whole lot easier than thinking about 'all those others' as nama > and rupa. I could somehow relate it more to 'my experience of..' > rather than accepting that all the others 'out there' were just > arising and falling away. They all seemed more 'solid' than me. > Of course, its just a whole lot of thinking going on, but it was > an interesting exercise. Its great the way, in the most unexpected > situations, some thought of dhamma will arise. Ph: It makees life ever so interesting, doeesn' it. As one friend put it, any moment can become so instructive, so perfect. As long as we don't try to have it that way, of course. Re other people, I remember last year seeing a rush of people heading to the station and seeing them in a momentary and helpful way as moved along by nama and rupa. And then that feeling was gone, and they were people again. But I think these moments really stick with us (accumulate, I guess) in a lasting way. It hasn't happened since then, it seems to me the insight is developing more toward myself, but who knows, just thinking as you say. BTW, Azita, as I was tidying up I was listening to the India talks. You were asking about the rupa of motion, for some tips about how to recognize it. Of course, none were forthcoming! I think they could have been. If someone has had a moment of direct understanding of a rupa or nama, couldn't they tell us about it? "I was walking down the street and a leaf landed on my nose and I had a direct understanding of motion" or something like that. If they were a trusted dhamma friend, that could condition awareness of such moments when they arose, even if we weren't clinging to expecting them. Is it verbotten or impossible to talk about one's moments of direct understanding? Would that mean there was clinging to the experience? If it helped condition a friend's moment of awareness, wouldn't the clinging to the experience be worth it? Yes, there would be mana, but there's always mana. Is it impossible to identify moments of direct understanding so explicitly? Well, that's an interesting question that just popped out. Also BTW and this *is* verbotten but may I say Azita that I think you have a very lovely voice? Something beguiling about it, a kind of good-humoured sheepishness. It is causing me lobha. Lovha? Could I ask you to speak in a less pleasant way in future recorded talks, like ....Sarah for example? Sarah, just joking!!!! There are so many lovely women's voices in these talks....sigh... Metta, Phil p.s We're off for a few days to Naomi's hometown. I won't be able to respond to threads for a few days. 45041 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, I continue. For various reasons Anapanasati is now promoted among Buddhists worldwide. I wonder if this is a fairly new phenomenon in Theravada as the commentaries are clear that this is the hardest of the objects of samatha. This is not to say that there are not people today who have the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to promote it to all. The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus on an object - including breath - it is normally done with attachment. But the development of samatha must be with refined panna, with detachment. Not easy at all to focus on an object with detachment, and to choose the hardest object of all is increasing the likelihood of going wrong..(unless one has genuine accumulations for this object). At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the difficulty, not making it seem easy. Also vipassana, so profound. In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right conditions, not by trying to force them up. I was at a beach, thinking about anatta. I looked at the horizon and visible object became clear - just for few brief moments, . I remember looking around at other poeople and thinking how can they be so unconcerned , can't they see it, that the world is not how it seems at all. I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we want it too. And I wonder why everyyone is so keen to have insight- it is the opposite of everything we could ever hope for, the erasing of self. It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on the minor conditons we miss the main. Someone might read about a nun who tried to hang herself and became sotapanna, or Vakkali who cut his throat but attained arahatship after that and think that mighht help. Or the monk who said fish was a suitable food and once he ate that attined arahantship, or the uncountalbe number of monks in Sri lanka in the old days who attained while eating morning congee. It is true that the situation is a (minor) condition, and being alone and free to contemplate can help. But what needs to be streesed is understanding, because that is the leader and the foundation. If we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm, then by the time it reaches the target 100m away it will be very far offindeed. And this path of Dhamma is very much further than 100m, if we slightly off at the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it hard to come back and resight. So meditation centers etc have their good points, people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- and that is not right. Robertk 45042 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/2/05 12:02:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: > Dear Howard - > > > >Howard: It would be a great blessing to master the jhanas sufficiently > to sail through the death process with clarity and calm. May we all have > the fortitude to practice adequately and the kusala supportive > accumulations to attain such a level! > > > > Yes indeed! I am glad that you have not changed (brainwashed?) -------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) -------------------------------- no > > matter how many times others rejected jhana "mastery" as nonsense. > > You are lucky to have attained at least the second jhana -- if my > memory did not fail me, I remembered reading and congratulating you > on your jhana experience (you were talking about it in a few posts at > the Triplegem Website). > --------------------------------- Howard: Once - only once - I "stumbled" into the 2nd jhana and apparently then shuttled back and forth between it and the 5th jhana, but this was just for a few minutes and it lacked the stability (or "lock-in") sufficient for calling it an *attaining* of jhana; it was merely sufficient for me to see the reality of the jhanas, the genuine possibility of attaining them, and how glorious they are. Since then the "best" that I've done in terms of meditative stability seems to be attaining access concentration and momentary concentration. I do think the jhanas are very important and are well worth putting forward regular effort. Despite the the incredible bliss they provide, fortunately I have somehow avoided a craving for them or a clinging to them. ---------------------------------------- > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45043 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations nilovg Dear Tep, op 01-05-2005 17:23 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Could you please describe or define precisely what "accumulations" > means and how anusaya accumulation operates, according to the > Abhidhamma? What are the paccayas for accumulation? --------------- N: At this moment you are seeing, actually, seeing sees visible object. Even before knowing what it is, there may be javana cittas with attachment to visible object now. That attachment falls away, but it is accumulated, although we do not realize this at all. It is accumulated as the latent tendency of sense desire. Then you think of the visible object, define it, have more liking for it. Again, attachment is accumulated. Why did attachment arise? because there is the latent tendency of sense desire and a suitable object appeared. The latent tendency conditions the arising of attachment with the akusala citta. Attachment clings to the object, falls away, and then more attachment is added to the latent tendency of sense desire. Thus, it goes on and on. The latent tendency of sense desire conditions the arising of akusala citta with attachment by way of natural strong dependance-condition. There are three levels of defielements: subtle defilements which are the latent tendencies, medium defilements which are the akusala cittas that arise, and strong defilements which are the transgressions through body, speech and mind. -------------- T: The English meanings are 1. action or process of accumulating; being > accumulated (e.g. Little things grow by continual accumulation). 2. that > which is accumulated or has accumulated; mass; collection (e.g. > accumulation of snow.) McMillan Dictionary, 1984. > > Now let take the snow accumulation as an example. .... > Is this snow accumulation process similar to the accumulation of good > or bad qualities you were talking about? ----------- N: Snow melts in your hand, it is nothing. I wish it were the same with latent tendencies! We cannot imagine very well how latent tendencies operate. They do not arise, they lie dormant in the citta. Time and again a new accumulation is added on. This is possible, because it is mental. Different from materiality, such as a room that is limited to what it can contain. Ven. Nyanaponika explains them (in Abhidhamma Studies, p. 122) as dangerous microbes investing the body. You may not notice that you are sick, but any time they can condition the arising of akusala citta. Your point was actually, everything is impermanent and how can these latent tendencies stay. Each citta falls away, but at the same time we can notice that this person has a character, different from someone else's character. Each life also has a certain continuity and the reason is that cittas succeed one another without interval. Even in between processes there are still cittas, bhavangacittas that keep the continuity in one lifespan. However, accumulated tendencies can be changed. We have an inimaginable amount of ignorance, but this can gradually wear out by the development of right understanding. Evenso our accumulated lobha, dosa and moha, they can wear away. Lokuttara magga-cittas eradicate latent tendencies, but, in the process of development of the eightfold Path, latent tendencies are gradually worn away. Learning about latent tendencies makes us see the danger of akusala, we learn that the arising of akusala cittas is inpredictable, and that even strong degrees can suddenly arise. Also, that akusala is deeply rooted and very stubborn. Learning about this helps us to have a sense of urgency to develop any kind of kusala for which there is an opportunity, right now. Be it daana, siila or bhaavanaa. It is encouraging to know that in this way latent tendencies can be worn away, and eventually be eradicated. Nina 45044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] vacation impressions. nilovg Hi Howard, I join James in his greetings. I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the cittas that were the different reactions to your experiences. That is, if you have time and inclination to write about this. Nina op 02-05-2005 05:28 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...: > buddhatrue@... writes: > >> Hi Howard (and All), >> >> Nice to see you back. Hope you had a nice vacation. > ==================== > Thank you! :-) It was a wonderful family get-together, a bit hectic > but wonderful. 45045 From: "mnease" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results mlnease Hi Lisa, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 9:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Good example, thanks! mike 45046 From: "hasituppada" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Accumulations hasituppada Dear Nina, You said, "Hasituppada thinks that one should only take the Suttanta as guide for the practice, not the Abhidhamma. By Abhidhamma I do not mean the book, thus, it is not helpful to practise book in hand and try to catch all dhammas one learnt about." I think, that way for the following reason, please correct me if I am wrong. At the 1st Council, Venerable Ananda did not read out the Abhidhamma. Probably because he did not know it. Among the disciples of the Buddha it was only Venerable Sariputta, who pre- deceased the Buddha, who knew it. At the preparation of the Council, the Senior Arahats may have discussed an Agenda, and decided that Venerable Upali recite the Vinaya Pitaka first and then Venerable Ananda recite the Sutta Pitaka, what to be included , what not etc. Venerable Mahakassapa, who presided the First Council at Rajagaha, for some reason, may have perhaps considered it inappropriate to include Abhidhamma as a Pitaka. Therefore only the Sutta Pitaka was accepted as the true teachings of the Buddha and recited at the first Council. Even at the second council which was held 100 years after, Abhidhamma was excluded. It was only at the third council which was held 200 years after the parinibbana of the Buddha, that Abhidhamma was included as the third Pitaka. Therefore for well over 200 years, Sutta Pitaka was the only teachings of the Buddha his followers studied and used in practice. Dear Nina, isn't there therefore, reason to believe that Suttanta, takes first place in the Thi Pitaka, and that which the ancient Arahats read and re- read and practiced for 200 years should be the basis of our practice to-day. It has proved satisfactory among a large number of practicing meditators. I quite agree that Abhidhamma is a very interesting reading material for all Buddhists , but it has to be studied in addition to the Suttas, as a guide to understand the Sutta Pitaka, to know better the differences in rupa, citta, cetasika, and Nibbana, the four paramatta Dhamma. Not vice versa. What do you think about it Nina ? I am awaiting to read you with great interest, as I know that this is a subject very close to your heart, and more so because, I respect your great knowledge of Abhidhamma. with metta, Hasituppada ____________________________________________________________________ Dear Tep, Hasituppada and all, Hasituppada thinks that one should only take the Suttanta as guide .... 45047 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 4:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] vacation impressions. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/2/05 10:06:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I join James in his greetings. > I take an interest in an account of your different vipaakacittas, and the > cittas that were the different reactions to your experiences. That is, if > you have time and inclination to write about this. > Nina > ===================== Thanks for the greetings! :-) There's really very little to report. The main happiness arising during the trip related to the entire immediate family (both sons, the wife and daughter of one, and the girlfriend and eventual wife of the other) all being together, and overly rare circumstance. Just doing things together was a pleasure. There was really little opportunity for much in the way of reflection, study, and formal meditation, but I did maintain mindfulness of internal (mental) states and bodily sensations much of the time. As to reactions, I did note some (quite manageable) anxiety arising in me at times, a not-infrequent occurrence when I am far from "home base". That is a form of clinging in me that I'm well aware of. I'm rather consistently in touch with it and with other akusala (and kusala) mindstates in "me". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45048 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:40am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing Dear Rob K, So clear are your messages. I am just enjoying reading letter by letter, word by word, phrase by phrase, sentence by sentence on your whole message. Here is just a simple reply and it will be just nodding agreeing what you said. I appreciate your good will and I do hope that all those who have not had such clearing understanding become to understand. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Dear Htoo, I continue. For various reasons Anapanasati is now promoted among Buddhists worldwide. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Maybe because people just learn suttas and not the whole teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I wonder if this is a fairly new phenomenon in Theravada as the commentaries are clear that this is the hardest of the objects of samatha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I also believe that aanaapaanassati is the hardest. Because it is so subtle that not all practitioners obtain in the right way and there are deviations from the right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: This is not to say that there are not people today who have the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to promote it to all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would not say 'it is unwise'. But I would say those who promote should master aanaapaanassati and teach accordingly. Otherwise, wrong way may be stepped. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus on an object - including breath - it is normally done with attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very right. Because we all, 'human beings & non-human beings in these 31 realms' have been here in this samsara for along time bound by attachment. While even higher beings like brahmas do not rightly see that they have attachment, it is more difficult for those lower beings to be detached from attachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But the development of samatha must be with refined panna, with detachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. After kaamaavacara cittas there are mahaggata cittas, which are also called majjhima cittas and the highest cittas, which are lokuttara cittas. All these cittas arise without attachment. So panna with detachment is ESSENTIAL. ESSENTIAL means it is totally impossible to arise so mentioned cittas without panna with detachment. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Not easy at all to focus on an object with detachment, and to choose the hardest object of all is increasing the likelihood of going wrong..(unless one has genuine accumulations for this object). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are right. No one has ability to see their accumulatoins. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the difficulty, not making it seem easy. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati is easy'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Also vipassana, so profound. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ***** Htoo: Pardon. Could you rephrase all these writing in another way so that I can understand. I am not good at language. ***** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right conditions, not by trying to force them up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am considering who is forcing or who are forcing. Is that 'me'? Are those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I was at a beach, thinking about anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Anatta can be contemplated at home, at monastry, in forest, on mountain, in plain, at cemetry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I looked at the horizon and visible object became clear - just for few brief moments, . I remember looking around at other poeople and thinking how can they be so unconcerned , can't they see it, that the world is not how it seems at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just remember The Buddha words. 'Ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddha vaa ajjhatta.mbahiddha vaa..' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we want it too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: And I wonder why everyyone is so keen to have insight- it is the opposite of everything we could ever hope for, the erasing of self. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Self-eraser is satipatthaana. If it is not genuine, 'self' will never be erased. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on the minor conditons we miss the main. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What are minor conditions? And What are the main? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Someone might read about a nun who tried to hang herself and became sotapanna, or Vakkali who cut his throat but attained arahatship after that and think that mighht help. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are reason why these stories are included in teachings. These are teachings and not for self-infliction. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Or the monk who said fish was a suitable food and once he ate that attined arahantship, or the uncountalbe number of monks in Sri lanka in the old days who attained while eating morning congee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana at brothels? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It is true that the situation is a (minor) condition, and being alone and free to contemplate can help. But what needs to be streesed is understanding, because that is the leader and the foundation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is right. That is why only 'Tihetukas are the only potential beings who can attain jhaana or magga & phala'. Otherwise, however hard one is practising he or she will never attain even appanaa samaadhi. Understanding is important. Yes. Understanding is the first. Understanding goes first. Understanding is the leader. Understanding sites at the top. Understanding leads the whole lot. Understanding is crucial. Understanding is essential. The Buddha preached Dhammacakkappavavattana to His first 5 disciples and in that sutta what comes first is samma-ditthi. The essence of samma-ditthi is panna or pannindriya cetasika. So why is understanding not important? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: If we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm, then by the time it reaches the target 100m away it will be very far offindeed. And this path of Dhamma is very much further than 100m, if we slightly off at the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it hard to come back and resight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So 'Sine theta' has to be zero-log? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: So meditation centers etc have their good points, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good things always have good points. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- and that is not right. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to seeing your responses and answers to my questions. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45049 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:02am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Hi Tep, (Htoo*) =================================== *Htoo: I am going to be occupied with something the next few days. I am not sure when or if I will have the time to respond to your post. So please be patient. Metta, Sukinder -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: That is fine, Sukin. I myself will be busy in the coming days, weeks, months as I have no control over time. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45050 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:31am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding, Walking Meditation htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Htoo, KenH, and Sukinder - I thought I did not have to explain why walking meditation was important, or explain about the object of walking meditation. But since KenH and other members have kept on ridiculing it , I have no choice but to respond. I might have been a little careless about what is the "object of satipatthana" and what is not. "As yogis carry on the practice, they will observe much more. When they lift their foot, they will experience the lightness of the foot. When they push the foot forward, they will notice the movement from one place to another. When they put the foot down, they will feel the heaviness of the foot, because the foot becomes heavier and heavier as it descends. When they put the foot on the ground, they will feel the touch of the heel of the foot on the ground. Therefore, along with observing lifting, moving forward, putting down, and pressing the ground, yogis will also perceive the lightness of the rising foot, the motion of the foot, the heaviness of the descending foot, and then the touching of the foot, which is the hardness or softness of the foot on the ground. When yogis perceive these processes, they are perceiving the four essential elements (in Pali, dhatu)." From: The Benefits of Walking Meditation by Sayadaw U Silananda. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl137.html Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Ken H, Sukin and all, Brilliant! I could not find any ritual when Tep describes 'walking meditation'. I DO KNOW that UNDERSTANDING is very important. We all should know cittas. We all should know kusala and akusala. The Buddha teased Pothila when Pothila came near to The Buddha. 'Tuccha tuccha'. Pothila did know all the teachings of The Buddha. Pothila did have UNDERSTANDING. I believe Pothila would be much much more deeply understand Dhamma than any of DSG members. Because Pothila did speak the same language that The Buddha used and Pothila received first-hand teachings unlike DSG members. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45051 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:53am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, here is the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43650 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will have a look. But after appearing of this reply post at DSG. And after finishing reading, I may write something. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I think it is not so much a matter of whether Mahasi is right or wrong but the fact that students now take his method as being authoritative. They then think they are having sati by concentrating on a body part or foot while walking, or element or abdomen. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the matter of teachers to check their students. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The same with Goenka's methods, what was once controversial is now taken as right. It is not hard to experience subtle sensations but people mistake this for the stage of insight into anicca. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So what are 'the stage of insight into anicca'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But this path has been laid out by the Buddha, not by later teachers, we have to be so true to what is real, not assume any unusual experience is something deep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Did anyone say that there has been another path discovered by later teachers? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not good at language. Please re-write above paragraph with other way or other words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Let's just say the editor wasn't convinced the results were right. Again who is right here is not the main point, it is the uncritical attachment to the teachers or to strange experiences from concentrating that is the problem. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Better than before. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 'Mahaasi saranam gacchaami' > > 'Dhammam saranam gacchaami' > > 'Sangham saranam gacchaami' > > Shocking? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Yes, not right attitude.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That was written by Mahaasi-hater/s. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > > > I know viriya or effort is one of 6 pakinnaka cetasika or 6 > > particular mental factors and can accompany akusala cittas, kusala > > cittas, abyakata cittas. There are 73 cittas that viriya can > > accompany. So just viriya or effort means nothing from view point > of > > whether akusala or kusala. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Yes, so if we know this we should be VERY careful when trying to understand satipatthana which is the most profound path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Once I was told that my face is like 'glowing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: But - at least in my case- not a milestone. Only the result of wrong concentration ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You skilfully avoided. And it is also not my case. What I described to you is 10 hindrances. What I told you that my face grow is cittaja-rupa kaayavinatti. This means my face glow as my mind glow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > I agree with you. I take my own refuge. :-) But when I said this I > > was severely attacked that 'this is not from tipitaka'. You know > who > > is who, :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K ::)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I talked to Upasaka Howard, he mouthed 'he he he ..'. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I do know that no one can hurry and no dhamma can be hurried. But > we > do need to encourage learning. This invloves practical matters. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Yes, but only in the right way. Not a blanket praise for anyone who sits down and tries to concentrate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will take a note in my note book. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I'll try to write some more tommorow. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already replied your 'tomorrow post'. I just find this post at a later time. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45052 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death in a non-lucid or sedated state ... how does it affect rebirth? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Chris, Howard and Htoo - Did you hear similar stories about the Burmese Sayadaws, Htoo? Respectfully, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Christine, Howard and All, Madaya Sayadaw died with a wound infested with lice. He did not allow anyone to treat his wound as there were lives. He died in peace and he was saluted for his 'Khanti' or endurance. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45053 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. buddhistmedi... Hello Htoo and RobK - Thank you both for your entertaining dialogue. But I am wondering if reading such a dialogue is conducive to my practice of satipatthana. Please advise! Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob K, > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Dear Htoo, > > I continue. For various reasons Anapanasati is now promoted among > Buddhists worldwide. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Maybe because people just learn suttas and not the whole teachings. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I wonder if this is a fairly new phenomenon in Theravada as the > commentaries are clear that this is the hardest of the objects of > samatha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I also believe that aanaapaanassati is the hardest. Because it is so > subtle that not all practitioners obtain in the right way and there > are deviations from the right. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > This is not to say that there are not people today who have > the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to > promote it to all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I would not say 'it is unwise'. But I would say those who promote > should master aanaapaanassati and teach accordingly. Otherwise, wrong > way may be stepped. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus > on an object - including breath - it is normally done with > attachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is very right. Because we all, 'human beings & non-human beings > in these 31 realms' have been here in this samsara for along time > bound by attachment. While even higher beings like brahmas do not > rightly see that they have attachment, it is more difficult for those > lower beings to be detached from attachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > But the development of samatha must be with refined panna, with > detachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > True. After kaamaavacara cittas there are mahaggata cittas, which are > also called majjhima cittas and the highest cittas, which are > lokuttara cittas. All these cittas arise without attachment. So panna > with detachment is ESSENTIAL. ESSENTIAL means it is totally > impossible to arise so mentioned cittas without panna with detachment. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Not easy at all to focus on an object with detachment, and to choose > the hardest object of all is increasing the likelihood of going > wrong..(unless one has genuine accumulations for this object). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > You are right. No one has ability to see their accumulatoins. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the > difficulty, not making it seem easy. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati > is easy'? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Also vipassana, so profound. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I agree. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every > moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are > the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, > lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ***** Htoo: > > Pardon. Could you rephrase all these writing in another way so that I > can understand. I am not good at language. > ***** > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right > conditions, not by trying to force them up. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I am considering who is forcing or who are forcing. Is that 'me'? Are > those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- > Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I was at a beach, thinking about anatta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Anatta can be contemplated at home, at monastry, in forest, on > mountain, in plain, at cemetry. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I looked at the horizon and visible object became clear - just for > few brief moments, . I remember looking around at other poeople and > thinking how can they be so unconcerned , can't they see it, that the > world is not how it seems at all. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I just remember The Buddha words. > > 'Ajjhatta.m vaa bahiddha vaa ajjhatta.mbahiddha vaa..' > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we > want it too. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer > accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve > nibbana. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > And I wonder why everyyone is so keen to have insight- it is the > opposite of everything we could ever hope for, the erasing of self. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Self-eraser is satipatthaana. If it is not genuine, 'self' will never > be erased. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on > the minor conditons we miss the main. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > What are minor conditions? And > What are the main? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Someone might read about a nun who tried to hang herself and became > sotapanna, or Vakkali who cut his throat but attained arahatship > after that and think that mighht help. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There are reason why these stories are included in teachings. These > are teachings and not for self-infliction. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > Or the monk who said fish was a suitable food and once he ate that > attined arahantship, or the uncountalbe number of monks in Sri > lanka in the old days who attained while eating morning congee. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana at > brothels? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > It is true that the situation is a (minor) condition, and being > alone and free to contemplate can help. But what needs to be > streesed is understanding, because that is the leader and the > foundation. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > That is right. That is why only 'Tihetukas are the only potential > beings who can attain jhaana or magga & phala'. > > Otherwise, however hard one is practising he or she will never attain > even appanaa samaadhi. > > Understanding is important. Yes. Understanding is the first. > Understanding goes first. Understanding is the leader. Understanding > sites at the top. Understanding leads the whole lot. Understanding is > crucial. Understanding is essential. The Buddha preached > Dhammacakkappavavattana to His first 5 disciples and in that sutta > what comes first is samma-ditthi. The essence of samma-ditthi is > panna or pannindriya cetasika. > > So why is understanding not important? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > If we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm, then by the time it > reaches the target 100m away it will be very far offindeed. And this > path of Dhamma is very much further than 100m, if we slightly off at > the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it > hard to come back and resight. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So 'Sine theta' has to be zero-log? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > So meditation centers etc have their good points, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Good things always have good points. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K: > > people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and > concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- > and that is not right. > > Robertk > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45054 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:13am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Htoo: I am not aware of that. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Dear Htoo, here is the post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/43650 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I read it. ''Then the Tipitakadhara Sayadaw continued with the following points which puzzled and troubled me further. A recently published book contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed in the Tipitaka, the Buddhist Canon. The book, by a well known sayadaw, was no less than an attempt to set a new direction and a new agenda for vipassana meditation in Myanmar..."" RobertK'' Before this paragraph seem to be good. That is U Sumangala admitted that Mahaasii Sayadaw's writing were in accord with Tipitaka, The Buddha Cannon. But I am not sure 'what you are talking on ''recently published book contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed in the tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon,''? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I'll try to write some more tommorow. > > RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks for your link to your old message. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45055 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread (341) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' I repeat these frequently so that these kamma will be familiar with. Garuka kamma are heavy kamma. So heavy that they give rise to their result as rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta in the next life. Garuka kamma are like 'jhaana kusala kamma'. When dying if being is developing jhaana and if marana-asanna-javana arises with jhaana-kusala cittas, this kamma becomes garuka kamma and no other kamma can hinder that garuka kamma or heavy kamma. As soon as jhaana-javana ends, cuti citta follows and when this cuti citta passes away, a patisandhi citta which is the result of jhaana- kusala citta arises in the next life as a brahma. Garuka kamma are heavy and no other kamma can overstep him if there is garuka kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1 Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. PS: 2 Currently Dhamma Thread is Dhamma Thread (373). According to Mods' advice, I restrict. Actually I wish to write 2000 in a day in a group and then leave the internet while giving someone my password and let him or her to copy and post to other groups. 45056 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <> > But I am not sure 'what you are talking on ''recently published book > contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana > meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed > in the tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon,''? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =========== Dear Htoo, It is a quote from the article published by the Mahasi people referring to a book by Pa Auk sayadaw. Pa Auk is critical of Mahasi method and his books are now banned in burma. Robertk 45057 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - Training of Perception [DN 9] buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina, Lisa, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) - Phil, you were talking about sanna (perception): >Ph: It has a function to assist citta in marking objects, but it comes >and goes so quickly that I don't know how we can use it >for training kusala. T: O.K. Let me go back one more time to the [DN 9: Potthapada Sutta] quote I used twice before . I'll use it here as basis to explain how one may use sanna "for training kusala" dhammas as well as eradicating akusalas. With concentration and seclusion(viveka) as the supporting conditions, the yogi enters the 1st jhana and two cetasikas, piti and sukha, arise. Developing the 1st jhana is the training for the perception of "refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion", cause it to arise and replace the "earlier perception of sensuality" (that existed prior the attainment of the 1st jhana). Next, the yogi trains (citta-sikkha) further to enter the 2nd jhana with a higher concentration and without vitakka and vicara. Because of such training the perception of "a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of concentration" now arises, and "his earlier perception of a refined truth of rapture & pleasure born of seclusion" ceases. So we can see that an inferior perception gets replaced by a superior perception during a training (there are 3 kinds of training in sila, citta and panna). In the same token, a perception of a given akusala could be replaced by a perception of the opposite kusala dhamma through the right kind of training. An example, niccasanna is replaced by aniccasanna through aniccanupassana. This is my understanding, please feel free to correct me if I was wrong. I will come back to discuss the first half of your message in the next message. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Tep > (snipped) > As for sanna, I have learned that it is a universal cetasika that > arises with every citta, and that we misunderstand it if we think of > it as perception in the conventional sense. It has a function to > assist citta in marking objects, but it comes and goes so quickly > that I don't know how we can use it for training kusala. You may > have a different approach, and that's fine. Who knows - we both may > be right! The Buddha's wisdom is so ineffably deep that it may > allow for more than one Right Way. > > Metta, > Phil 45058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: saññaa. nilovg Dear Tep, You remember I gave some examples about meanings of saññaa? That it sometimes stands for citta, or for vipassana? That is how we came to talk about the Maha-nidaana sutta. There is no specific training of saññaa, but saññaa accompanies citta, in this case jhanacitta. Nina. op 02-05-2005 06:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a > wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as > Adhicitta-sikkha means. 45059 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: saññaa. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Please read my message # 45057 (the one just came a few minutes earlier) and tell me if the idea in that message makes sense, after replacing "perception" by "jhanacitta" as you have suggested. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > You remember I gave some examples about meanings of saññaa? That it > sometimes stands for citta, or for vipassana? That is how we came to talk > about the Maha-nidaana sutta. There is no specific training of saññaa, but > saññaa accompanies citta, in this case jhanacitta. > Nina. > op 02-05-2005 06:43 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > The sutta DN 9 explains clearly that sanna must be trained so that a > > wrong one is replaced by the opposite. This is what meditation as > > Adhicitta-sikkha means. 45060 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <> > > But I am not sure 'what you are talking on ''recently published book > > contends that many of Mahasi Sayadaw's instructions for vipassana > > meditation are not in accord with the Buddha's teaching as expressed > > in the tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon,''? > > ---------------------------------------------- ---------------------- -- > > > > =========== > Dear Htoo, > It is a quote from the article published by the Mahasi people referring > to a book by Pa Auk sayadaw. Pa Auk is critical of Mahasi method and > his books are now banned in burma. > Robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Rob K, I am not clear. I am lost on the way between our exchange as we just cut some pieces. So do you means 1. Pa Auk wrote ''Mahasi's wrote wrong things'' or do you mean 2. Mahasi's Sayadaw's writings are not in accord with Tipitaka, the Buddha Cannon? With respect, Htoo Naing 45061 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > ---------------------- > Dear Rob K, > > I am not clear. I am lost on the way between our exchange as we just > cut some pieces. > > So > > do you means > > 1. Pa Auk wrote ''Mahasi's wrote wrong things'' > > or do you mean > > 2. Mahasi's Sayadaw's writings are not in accord with Tipitaka, the > Buddha Cannon? > > ====== Dear Htoo, The main point was that you and other members have mentioned both Pa Auk and Mahasi. But a problem with deciding to take a modern teacher as our authority is if they disagree on some aspect of Dhamma. See this web article that was also published in a small book http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita5.htm I wasn't taking sides on the debate between the Mahasi and Pa Auk camp (although I am probably closer to Mahasi than Pa Auk). Just pointing out this problem. If you say both are right.... Or like the debate between the Acharn Mun school and Nyanaponika, who is right? It was all related to my point of attaching to teachers, versus finding out the way so that the dhammas themselves teach. Robertk 45062 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Hasituppada, Rob K and Sarah have written many thorough posts on the historical side of the Abhidhamma, as belonging to the oldest tradition. It is in U.P. under Abhidhamma. As far as I understood, the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries were recited from the first Council on. I do not think it to be a later tradition, but most important to me: how does it relate to our life? And, the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. In the U.P. of our list also sutta texts are mentioned that refer to Abhidhamma, especially where the suttas are explained under the aspect of angas. I am preparing to go out of town the whole day tomorrow, so I cannot go deeper into this now. I can repost what I wrote today to the Pali list where a discussion was going on. It is an old post of mine. < I hope that very gradually people will relate Abhihamma to their personal life. I am always impressed when reading the very beginning of the Dhammasangani, the first Book of the Abhidhamma. I read about all the sobhana cetasikas that come to assist the first type of mahaa-kusala citta accompanied by paññaa. This clarifies how many conditions are necessary for just one moment of kusala citta that falls away immediately. The text is very direct, straight to the point, and I find that it goes straight to the heart. But the Abhidhamma is not supposed to be book study, it is to be lived and practised. Then one will discover many, many defilements, coarse and subtle, one had never thought of before. One comes to see that lobha arises in a day more often than one could dream of. Lobha can take any object through the six doorways. And see the suttas: here we also find the teaching of kusala and akusala. How lobha lures us all the time. Through the Abhidhamma we come to know the deep underlying motives of our actions, speech and thoughts. We often deceive ourselves as to the motives of our actions, speech and thoughts that seem to be wholesome. In reality they are mostly directed towards our own gain, they are motivated by selfish desire. With a growing understanding of the latent tendencies that are powerful conditions for all akusala cittas in our life, we will be urged to be mindful of all realities, akusala included. By reflecting and being aware of whatever reality appears we can learn to become more sincere and truthful with regard to the cittas that arise. Learning about the latent tendencies helps us to understand why we again and again make the same mistakes in life. We learn more details about conceit and come to know that it can arise with regard to any object we experience. See the Book of Analysis, Small Matters. We should study the Abhidhamma together with Suttanta and Vinaya. Through the Vinaya we learn about many shades and degrees of defilements, to see danger in the smallest faults. Through the Abhidhamma we come to understand more the Buddha's message contained in the suttas and the Vinaya. The Abhidhamma is closely connected with satipatthana.> I also learn from the Abhidhamma that the source of all problems in life is our defilements, not other people, not the situations we are in. The above matters are more important to me than historical arguments althout these may help people to have more confidence. Just some personal thoughts. Nina. ---------- op 02-05-2005 17:43 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: > > Therefore only the Sutta Pitaka was accepted as the true teachings > of the Buddha and recited at the first Council. Even at the second > council which was held 100 years after, Abhidhamma was excluded. It > was only at the third council which was held 200 years after the > parinibbana of the Buddha, that Abhidhamma was included as the > third Pitaka. 45063 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vacation impressions. nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for your report. You did not forget the Dhamma also when away from homebase. It shows that listening, considering, discussing are indeed conditions for remembering the Dhamma. There is dhamma everywhere, and I am glad, I have muditaa about your happiness of being together with the whole family. Even the anxiety is dhamma, it is real, it is conditioned. Nina. op 02-05-2005 17:51 schreef upasaka@... op upasaka@...:>> > ===================== > Thanks for the greetings! :-) > There's really very little to report. The main happiness arising > during the trip related to the entire immediate family (both sons, the wife > and > daughter of one, and the girlfriend and eventual wife of the other) all being > together, and overly rare circumstance. Just doing things together was a > pleasure. 45064 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 2, 2005 0:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: saññaa. nilovg Dear Tep, I go to sleep now, a trip tomorrow, sorry. Yes, it sounds good what you did, but I cannot look it up now. Nina. op 02-05-2005 21:25 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > Please read my message # 45057 (the one just came a few minutes > earlier) and tell me if the idea in that message makes sense, after > replacing "perception" by "jhanacitta" as you have suggested. 45065 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) buddhistmedi... Hello Phil (Nina, Lisa, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) - Now, as I promised, I am back to discuss your idea of conditioning states. Remember you said the following? Ph: >I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would >condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition >(pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel > I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough > investigation of this all important condition! T: I'd like have you help me formulate how we might cause a rapid succession of kusala moments by means of pakatuupanissaaya. But I don't know such a "natural decisive support condition" operates. Please give an example that shows how this supporting condition is the causal factor for another " shame kusala" to arise, following the previous one in the previous moment. Playing first with the basic concepts is a key to gain clear understanding of how the factors work together, I believe. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Tep > > (snipped) > "Conditions", of course, refers to paccayadhamma (conditioning > states) and paccayuppannadhamma (conditioned states) which are > linked together in a very precise way. I throw around the > word "conditions" quite loosely because I don't yet understand > their working well enough to be more specific - but I am studying, > and reflecting on conditions in daily life. > > (snipped) > Metta, > Phil 45066 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 2:14pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Dear Robert K, Thanks for your linking. I have read it straight away. Now I am happy. Please see below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, The main point was that you and other members have mentioned both Pa Auk and Mahasi. But a problem with deciding to take a modern teacher as our authority is if they disagree on some aspect of Dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To be honest, to be very honest, I do not appoint anyone as a modern teacher. I will repeat that again. To be honest, to be very honest, I do not appoint anyone as a modern teacher. My teacher is The Buddha Gotama. Satipatthana is taught by The Buddha Gotama. Vipassana is taught by The Buddha Gotama. Meditation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. The way for liberation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. I appreciate The Sangha, including Venerable Moggallaana, Venerable Sariputta, Venerable Upaali, Venerable Kassapa. I appreciate all those who traditionally handed over the teachings down to today and I salute them. I did not find anything wrong in Mahaasii' writings. I will talk on another thread about this. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: See this web article that was also published in a small book http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/pandita5.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks Rob K. I read it. After reading that (../pandita5.htm ), I feel deeper respect to Mahaasii Sayadaw than I did. Because Mahaasii Sayadaw was right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: I wasn't taking sides on the debate between the Mahasi and Pa Auk camp (although I am probably closer to Mahasi than Pa Auk). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have already said above. I do not appoint anyone as a modern teacher. This also include Mahaasii Sayadaw. That is I do not appoint Mahaasii Sayadaw as a modern teacher. I am not audience of such matter. I am just an audience of my own path and my journey. That is I am the audience to what arises as nama and what arises as rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Just pointing out this problem. If you say both are right.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would say The Buddha is right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Or like the debate between the Acharn Mun school and Nyanaponika, who is right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In my mind, there is no debate. What is in my mind is to do the audience of nama and rupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It was all related to my point of attaching to teachers, versus finding out the way so that the dhammas themselves teach. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Attachment is for all those who want it and who do not want to release it. Grasp a cobra. As soon as, one knows that it is a cobra, he or she has to throw it away. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45067 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Like and colours lbidd2 Hi Phil, The "intrinsically desirable or undesirable" category of 5-door objects is rather broad and general. The examples given in CMA are the Buddha and a beautiful woman for for inherently desirable visible objects and a rotting corpse for an inherently undesirable visible object. I don't think this category would apply on a microscopic, paramattha dhamma level. So I don't think it is a factor in the analysis of a single colour or a taste, for example. However, for your own information, the experience of an inherently desirable object is considered kusala kamma vipaka (wholesome kamma result), meaning that it is the result of a wholesome javana citta such as nondesire, nonaversion, or wisdom. So if you see a pretty girl it means you did something right in the (possibly distant) past. Regarding understanding blue, one way to work with 5-door objects on an experiential level is to take an object you like a lot and look at it carefully. I like a particular kind of cookie. First I look at it and notice the colours. If it has just the right colour I could notice that consciousness of the bare colour arises with a neutral feeling but also there is something "right" about this colour. This rightness is a perception conditioned by an accumulation of previous cookie experiences. And this conditions a liking of the colour. Along with the liking comes a pleasant feeling. So in association with the subtle perfect colour of the cookie are two feelings, neutral and pleasant, a liking, and a history of cookie experiences. All of this is likely to be combined and misunderstood as the colour of the cookie. In reality the colour is just the colour, not any feeling, not liking, not a history, and not even a correct understanding. You could work the same out for texture, temperature, smell and taste. Consciousness of taste and smell is also accompanied by neutral feeling but consciousness of texture and temperature would be accompanied by pleasant feeling if it was really a good cookie. Larry 45068 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Vism.XIV,157 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 157. (9)-(13) All those stated in the first instance, except the three abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), come into association with the first of the fine-material profitable [kinds of consciousness] (9). With the second (10) applied thought (iii) is also lacking. With the third (11) sustained thought (iv) is also lacking. With the fourth (12) happiness (v) is also lacking. With the fifth (13) compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii), among the inconstant, are also lacking. (14)-(17) In the case of the four kinds of immaterial [profitable consciousness] these are the same as the last-mentioned, for it is only the immaterialness that is the difference here. 45069 From: naresh gurwani Date: Mon May 2, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Self & No Self nar_gurwani Hi Nina Since long time iam not in to this discussion board, i have a question what is the difference between a Monk & layperson, is it that Monk is one who stays in seclusion and practices & learns And Layperson is one who follows dhamma but is also a householder ? Another query why is it so difficult to accept tht there is no self, iam trying to understand , but it is quite difficult to accept the fact of No -self but on the other hand iam very much keen on knowing only Truth, So self & no self is a big battle field inside me this 2 clashes & make my living worse. awaiting your reply Naresh --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 30-04-2005 21:11 schreef Larry op > LBIDD@...: > > > Can you give an example of prompted insight? > N: It is hard to know whether the first type of > mahaa-kusala citta arises > which is unprompted, or the second type, which is > prompted. Being unprompted > tells us actually something about the quality and > power of kusala. > The second one is less powerful, it need not be > induced by someone else. > An example of the sod type could be: the Buddha > says: Bhikkhus, do not be > neglectful. Be aware. > His words can be a condition to be aware at this > moment. > Nina. > > > > 45070 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 8:53pm Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) foamflowers Hello Tep (Nina, Phil, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) As you all know I am new to this kind of study and as I was going through words I don't know mentioned in the emails I get from DSG I looked up this word,pakatuupanissaaya and found this word "paticca-samuppáda or Paticcasamuppada." The law of depedent orgination. Seems that is what the Abhidhamma is all about plus anatta what is impersonal. The doctrine of dependent origination, flows like a stream by showing that all these things (phenomena) are in one way or another conditionally related with each other. While anatta takes things apart to their smallest part and shows they are empty of self. That is what the Abhidhamma seems to point to that is not self and the dependent nature of things, that is phenomena, physical/mental objects. by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw taken from a a larger article. Those persons who wish to attain the Paths and the Fruits thereof in this very life must fulfil the first eleven carana-dhamma, i.e. sila, indriya-samvara, bhojanemattannuta, jagariyanuyoga, and the seven saddhamma. Herein, sila means ajivatthamaka-nicca-sila (permanent practice of morality ending with right livelihood); indriya-samvara means guarding the six sense-doors--eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind; bhojanemattanuta means taking just sufficient food to preserve the balance of the corporeality group in the body and being satisfied therewith; jagariyanuyogo means not sleeping during the day, and sleeping only during one period (of the three periods) of the night, practising bhavana (mental concentration) during the other two periods. Saddhamma means: 1. saddha (faith) 2. sati (mindfulness) 3. hiri (moral shame) 4. ottappa (moral dread) 5. bahusacca (great learning) 6. viriya (energy; diligence) 7. panna (wisdom). Lack of moral shame is called ahirika. [Lisa] I have read here on DSG that to put for effort to attain paramis is a wasted effort...tightly sitting cross legged with eyes squeezed shut and forcing wisdom, insight and the virtues like dana, metta, kaurna, ect., toarise. These things should arise naturally and one cannot force them this is the message I get, and also it is almost impossible in this age for a common person to know wisdom, insight and virtues beyond just pretending. With the idea of dependent orgination and the impersonal or indifference of anatta I see you can condition these things to arise through practice and effort. Maybe not squeezing the eyes shut tightly while sitting cross legged for hours. But remembering through the day how behavior is conditioned and if it is it can be changed through effort and discipline. Through remembering sati, all through the day the flow of dependent orgination, that is the body mind is in flux I can change and develop the virtues through exchanging negative habits for postive habits. More from this lovely man Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw Dhammantaraya By miccha-dhamma that are likely to cause dhammantaraya is meant such views, practices and limitations as the inability to see the dangers of samsara, the belief that these are times when the Paths and the Fruits can no longer be attained, the tendency to defer effort until the parami ripen, the belief that persons of the present day are dvi-hetuka,[38] the belief that the great teachers of the past were nonexistent, etc. Even though it does not reach the ultimate, no kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is ever rendered futile. If effort be made, a kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is instrumental in producing parami in those who do not possess parami. If no effort be made, the opportunity to acquire parami is lost. If those whose parami are immature put forth effort, their parami become ripe and mature. Such persons can attain the Paths and Fruits in their next existence within the present Sasana. If no effort be made, the opportunity for the parami to riper, is lost. If those whose parami is ripe and mature put forth effort, the Paths and the Fruits can be attained within this life. If no effort be made the opportunity to attain the Paths and the Fruits is lost. If persons who are dvi-hetuka put forth effort, they can become tihetuka[39] in their next existence. If they do not put forth effort, they cannot ascend from the stage of dvi-hetuka and will slide down to the stage of ahetuka.[40] In this world, there is a certain person who plans to become a bhikkhu. If another person says to him, 'entertain the intention only if you can remain a bhikkhu all your life. Otherwise, do not entertain the idea', it amounts to dhammantaraya. 'Cittuppadamattam pi kusalesu dhammesu bahupakaram vadami.' (I declare that the mere arising of intention for the performance of meritorious deeds is productive of great benefits).[41] Thus did the Buddha preach. With Metta, Lisa In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hello Phil (Nina, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) - > > Now, as I promised, I am back to discuss your idea of conditioning > states. Remember you said the following? > > Ph: >I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would > >condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition > >(pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel > > I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough > > investigation of this all important condition! > > T: I'd like have you help me formulate how we might cause a rapid > succession of kusala moments by means of pakatuupanissaaya. But I > don't know such a "natural decisive support condition" operates. > Please give an example that shows how this supporting condition is > the causal factor for another " shame kusala" to arise, following >the previous one in the previous moment. Playing first with the basic > concepts is a key to gain clear understanding of how the factors >work together, I believe. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > 45071 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Htoo: > > To be honest, to be very honest, I do not appoint anyone as a modern > teacher. > > I will repeat that again. To be honest, to be very honest, I do not > appoint anyone as a modern teacher. > > My teacher is The Buddha Gotama. > > Satipatthana is taught by The Buddha Gotama. Vipassana is taught by > The Buddha Gotama. Meditation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. The way > for liberation is taught by The Buddha Gotama. > > I appreciate The Sangha, including Venerable Moggallaana, Venerable > Sariputta, Venerable Upaali, Venerable Kassapa. I appreciate all > those who traditionally handed over the teachings down to today and I > salute them. > > I did not find anything wrong in Mahaasii' writings. I will talk on > another thread about this. > =============== Dear Htoo, I am glad you follow the Buddha raher than a modern teacher. But twice recently you mention Mahasi and Pa Auk in the same sentence This is one case: ""Are those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar?"" I only recognize Ledi , Pa Auk and Mahasi. Since Mahasi school and Pa Auk are now writing books criticising each others methods we might assume at least one of them has something wrong. I look forward to your comments on Mahasi. robertk 45072 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:12pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 Dear Htoo, Thanks for the nice message. WE agree on most points so I snip most of your reply and comment only on a few points: In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Htoo: > > I also believe that aanaapaanassati is the hardest. Because it is so > subtle that not all practitioners obtain in the right way and there > are deviations from the right. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > This is not to say that there are not people today who have > the accumulations to develop anapanasati - but it seems unwise to > promote it to all. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > I would not say 'it is unwise'. But I would say those who promote > should master aanaapaanassati and teach accordingly. Otherwise, wrong > way may be stepped. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > The natural tendency of wordlings is to attach and so when we focus > on an object - including breath - it is normally done with > attachment. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > This is very right. Because we all, 'human beings & non-human beings > in these 31 realms' have been here in this samsara for along time > bound by attachment. While even higher beings like brahmas do not > rightly see that they have attachment, it is more difficult for those > lower beings to be detached from attachment. > -------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > At least the teachers of anapanasati should be stressing the > difficulty, not making it seem easy. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati > is easy'? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Well I have read many books by modern teachers explaining breath but not one quotes the Visuddhimagga where it says Anapanasati is "difficult, difficult" and suitable only for Buddhas and Buddha's sons. Go to many Buddhist centers in this age and even if you are a raw beginner they will instruct you to concentrate on breath. > Rob K: > > In each moment so many conditions for a citta to arise, and yet every > moment citta arises. And the cittas that are conditioned to arise are > the same types that have arisen a trillion, trillon times before, > lobha and moha and sometimes dosa. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > ***** Htoo: > > Pardon. Could you rephrase all these writing in another way so that I > can understand. I am not good at language. > ***** > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, it is like an amazing miracle that citta can arise. For just one citta the extraordinary complexity of paccaya that have to come together - and it is all happening so, so fast. Impossible that anyone could ever arrange any of these to happen. So the ones that continually arise are those rooted in lobha, dosa and moha. Why? Becuase they are the ones that have arisen so often in every life, in trillions of lives. And each life has trillions of these arising every day. So we have to know this, otherwise we will think some unusual or refined type of lobha is panna. Because lobha has many tricks to make it look attractive. --- > Rob K: > > The ones with real panna are not so common, they depend on the right > conditions, not by trying to force them up. > > Rob K: > > > Rob K: > > I could understand why we can't just make insight arises because we > want it too. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer > accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve > nibbana. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - You will have to explain this reference. ================ > > Rob K: > > It is true there are many supporting conditions. But if we focus on > the minor conditons we miss the main. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > What are minor conditions? And > What are the main? > -------------------------- The main conditions are hearing the Dhamma, considering it correctly and deeply and applying it correctly. The minor are things like food, health, cleanliness, bodily seclusion etc.. -------------------------------------------- >> Htoo: > > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana at > brothels? > ---------- Anytime. Many prostitutes became sotapanna. There were those who became sotapanna while trying to kill the Buddha even. > Rob K: > > people are taught Dhamma. But if they stress on situation and > concentrating then that is what the students wil think is crucial- > and that is not right. > > Robertk > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. >=============== Dear Htoo, This is the age where insight alone is the path. If we try to make a hybrid samatha/vipassana path then difficulties occur. Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be held onto and studied. So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by concentrating. RobertK 45073 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 10:53pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 182- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Answers, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Right Effort of the eightfold Path contd.] Questions i What can obstruct right effort? ii When we are thinking of the goal with discouragement, what can be done to persevere? iii How can signs of foulness and decay in the body be reminders of awareness of the present reality? iv Why is listening to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right person helpful for the arising of sati? ***** [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 45074 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 154, 155, and Tiika. sarahprocter... Hi Phil (& Nina, Lisa & Azita), You questioned before why K.Sujin referred to conceit and anger, for example, as being harsh and I suggested there was no gentleness at such times. I was reminded of your question when I just (a little behind)read Nina's comments here from the Vism Tiika: --- nina wrote: > The Tiika explains that the three virati cetasikas draw back from evil > because of gentleness (soracca). When the the citta is gentle and kind, > one > will not cause any harm to others; one will respect another being¹s > life, > one will not take away his property and one will not commit adultery > since > that causes sorrow to someone else. > One may abstain from evil conduct, not because one thinks that one has > to > follow rules, but because one has loving-kindness and gentleness towards > other beings. One takes their welfare to heart. .... S: So when we speak or act out of conceit, other kinds of attachment or anger, the cittas are harsh - no gentleness or concern for the others' welfare at all. .... > N:> We may be inclined to take abstention from evil for self, but we should > remember that virati is a sobhana cetasika that arises with kusala citta > when there are the right conditions. It arises just for a moment and > then > falls away immediately. It does not belong to amyone. .... S: So, changing gentle and harsh cittas all the time....and as Nina, says, we tend to take these qualities for self - for 'me' or the 'other', but they are mere conditioned dhammas. Lisa gave a good reminder in her helpful post on '~nana and interesting word'. She gave the Pali which referred to the 'sure conviction that where there is no cause there is no consequence'. The second stage of insight is this knowledge (~nana) about conditioned dhammas. No 'self' involved at all. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil - while I have your 'ear', you mentioned that when Azita asked about 'motion' (vayo), saying she found it difficult I think, that she didn't get a reply. Actually, I'd like to say, she addressed her qu to K.Sujin and K.Sujin did reply. It may not have been the kind of reply you (or she) expected and I forget the brief words (you can remind me), but it left an impression on me. I understood it to be along the lines of: Don't try to pinpoint or 'work out' what a reality is because then there won't be any awareness. In other words, it'll be attachment and self trying to find the reality which doesn't appear now by thinking, rather than just being aware of whatever does appear right now. As I say, If forget the words, but thought it was a good reply at the time. Another time, the reply might be quite different. Metta, Sarah ========= 45075 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 11:47pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > >. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > I think it is not so much a matter of whether Mahasi is right or > wrong but the fact that students now take his method as being > authoritative. They then think they are having sati by concentrating > on a body part or foot while walking, or element or abdomen. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > This is the matter of teachers to check their students. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > It is not hard to experience subtle sensations but > people mistake this for the stage of insight into anicca. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > So what are 'the stage of insight into anicca'? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Dear Htoo, When I was at a temple in thailand in the late 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous) home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of pilgrimage and having heard about this temple came to stay. He had been there for about 6 weeks when I arrived and I was interested to meet him because I was thinking about visiting his center in the following year. He told me that when he first met the teacher where we now were, he was asked about his understanding and experiences; when it became clear that the monk thought he had experienced nibbana the teacher told him he was simply fooling himself, (self-hypnosis he called it). Anyway over the next few weeks the monk came to see that he was indeed fooling himself and he was able to let go of the idea of being sotapanna or sakadagami or whatever he had thought. I got to know him well (apart from the teacher he and another long term resident were the only people I was permitted to talk to - a very strict temple). Anyway over the next month he had some more struggles-because the teacher insisted that not only had he not not attained nibbana, but he had not reached any stage of vipassana- including the first- namarupaparichedda. Eventually he accepted that and could start again, he saw how profound it is even to have a moment when the difference between nama and rupa is seen. The monk had had miccha nana and miccha vimutti (wrong knowledge and wrong release ). This monk led a rigorous life and kept the vinaya strictly, but he had been going the wrong way. Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness "From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; .. .. from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......" Micchatta.m, bhikkhave, aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa. Katha~nca, bhikkhave, micchatta.m aagamma viraadhanaa hoti, no aaraadhanaa? Micchaadi.t.thikassa, bhikkhave, , micchaavaayaa..... massa micchaasati pahoti, micchaasatissa micchaasamaadhi pahoti, micchaasamaadhissa micchaa~naa.na.m pahoti, micchaa~naa.nissa ?E4 micchaavimutti pahoti This monk knew pali, studied Abhidhamma but still had wrong view conditioning wrong practice. Because wrong view is deep, it isn't just because someone knows abhidhamma they don't have wrong view. They may believe in control just as much as any non-buddhist unless they have really striven with right effort to understand. Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. This matter of teachers to check their students that you mention. It is whether a tecaher can explain the anattaness of all dhammas so that the student can understand and let go of his wrong ideas that is important. Instead this monk had been indicated by his teachers that he was at this and that stage of insight. He in turn had told (or hinted) to his students they were at this or that stage of insight: but now he found out he was taking unusual experiences that happen due to strong concentration as stages of insight. On anicca. Now I can feel subtle sensations in my body when I focus on tha area- but it is merely citta and sanna knowing them. Khun sujin explained to me that even at the first stage of insight where nama is distingushed from rupa the whole world is turned over. The mind door - which is now hidden by the sense doors is understood. And that is still far from insight into the ti-lakkhana. Robertk 45076 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Like and colours sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Larry, Hope you don't mind my butting in here - --- Philip wrote: > I get confused because I have learned that visible objects are > classified as pleasant or unpleasant, that there is something > intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant about them. Is that simply > because they are kussala or akusala vipaka, the result of kusala or > akusala kamma, so we must say there is something intrinsically > pleasant or unpleasant about them? .... S: It depends on kamma what visible object will be experienced (or not experienced) at this moment - pleasant or unpleasant. .... > > I have leared that visible object and colour are more or less the > same thing, if I understood correctly. Is a colour like blue > intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant? That seems hard to understand > for me. .... S: Visible object is just that which is seen. Period. We can refer to it as colour, because colour is an important aspect of it, but there is also light and so on -- just what is seen now. Sometimes people are confused and think they suddenly should start seeing a blue haze or something:-).* So, it's not the colour like blue which is inherently pleasant or unpleasant, but the visible object which is seen. Perhaps it's easier to understand (theoretically) with sound -- some like when we hear thunder are inherently unpleasant. but don't get hung up on this point -- it's impossible to know when vipaka is pleasant/unpleasant and it would be quite wrong to try and find out, like trying to be aware of motion or any other aspect. .... > On the other hand, we know that visible objects do not give rise > to pleasant or unpleasant feeling - feeling arising from eye door > objects is always neutral. So this is all confusing for me...Before > I took seeing for granted. Now I know how subtle it is. .... S: The feeling accompanying seeing is neutral, but the subsequent cittas in the sense and mind doors can be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. As soon as visible object is seen, there's likely to be attachment or aversion or ignorance. Hence the reminders about 'guarding' with awareness. .... S: Yes, Larry gave excellent passages from the commentaries. "It is non-self on account of the mode of insusceptibility to the exercise of power.." On the passage he quoted on impermanence, my summary is that the impermanence of dhammas is not seen because of a)the idea of continuity b)the idea of postures and c) the idea of a mass When dhammas are seen as having their own discrete characteristics, are not concealed by an idea of posture and are distinguished from each other, they can be known as namas and rupas. "But when they are seen after resolving them by means of knowledge into these elements, they disintegrate like froth subjected to compression by the hand. They are mere states (dhamma) occurring due to conditions and void. In this way the characteristic of not-self becomes more evident." (Pm 824). Metta, Sarah *Dhammasangani 616 (U Kyaw Khine transl): "Visible Object What is the Corporeality which is visible object that causes the arising of Eye-consciousness? Dependent on the four Primary Elements, there is the Corporeality which is visible, which arises with impingement, and is of various colours: dark blue, pale yellow...........light greeen; long, short, small, large, shperical, circular....; low, high; shade, sunshine; light, darkness; cloud, snow, smoke, mist; moonlight, sunlight, starlight, light from a looking glass; colour of a precious stone (such as a ruby), a conch, a pearl, an emerald; colour of gold and silver. Apart and different from the above visible objects and depending on the Primary Elements, there are also other visible objects which are visible and which arise with impingement. With the Eye-sensitivity which is not visible and which arises with impingement, one saw, sees, will see, and may see this visible object which is visible and which arises with impingement. This Corporeality is also known as visible object, also as the visible object that causes the arising of Eye-consciousness, ans also as the Element of visible object. This is the Corporeality which is a visible object that causes the arising of Eye-consciousness." ================================= 45077 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reality and the Mind sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, --- robmoult wrote: > You are correct that the material in my post comes from a number of > sources; some of the material originates from the Suttas, some from > the commentaries, some from the Abhidhammatthasangaha and some from > Ledi Sayadaw. > > If I want to break out the Ledi Sayadaw stuff, I should probably > also break out the Abhidhammatthasangaha stuff as well. The citta > process is only broadly mentioned in the commentaries and virtually > non-existent in the Suttas. ... S: Perhaps it would just be better to say 'according to Ledi Sayadaw' if it is referring to his writing and not found in the commentaries. For the 'Abhidhammatthasangaha stuff', you could also refer to this source. As you know, however, I read it as a 'Summary' of the Abhidhamma and commentaries and believe that all the details included, such as the citta process details, can be found in these texts. For example, the Visuddhimagga and its Tiika along with the commentaries to the first two books of the Abhidhamma include all the 'citta process stuff':-). If you find any aspect that you believe is new to the Abhidhammatthasangaha, I'll gladly try to chase down an earlier source:-). As I say, I haven't been able to do this for some of the details Ledi Sayadaw gives, which is why I asked you. ..... > In spite of this, I have heard a number of Dhamma speakers reference > the 17 step citta process as "the word of the Buddha". ... S: As it says in the Atthasalini, that which is in conformity with the Buddha's teaching and spoken by the great arahants came to be known as 'the word of the Buddha' with his authority. This would include the entire Abhidhamma Pitaka and ancient commentaries as I understand. .... >During my > class, I usually comment on the original source of each idea (Sutta, > commentary, Abhidhammatthasangaha, Ledi Sayadaw or even modern > writers such as Ajahn Brahm, Buddhadasa, etc.). ... S: I think this is the best way. <...> Snipped all agreed parts as Htoo would say with smiles:-):-) .... > When I presented this paper in my class, I was asked why the mind > would identify one a particular thing from a visual field. This led > to a very interesting discussion of natural decisive support > condition. ... S: Yes natural decisive support condition is v.important. Accumulated sanna which marks and remembers is the key here, I think. ... Metta, Sarah p.s Phil asked you a qu in his post #44989 which you may have missed. =============== 45078 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 - Right Effort of the eightfold Path (h) sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: <...> > > T: So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? > ... > S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – <..> > T: You're right ! I have asked you to select one of the three choices. > > So, of course, there is a view of " *us*, *doing* and *something*". But > > how can you avoid that? ... S: I was probably just being 'difficult' for which I apologise. My point was just the one that was made recently in one of the extracts from 'Cetasikas': "We are so used to thinking of effort as effort exerted by a self that we can hardly imagine how there can be effort arising because of its own condtions." S: The same applies, I think, to making choices, decisions and so on. We think that if there is more understanding of conditioned dhammas we'll no longer be able to function normally or make decisions, but of course this is quite wrong and you weren't suggesting it. Perhaps I should have simply asked you in your question what you meant when you wrote the following: 'what do you think we the worldling followers should do?'. Did you mean: a) There really is something *we* can do? b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated c) This is just conventional talk - a short-hand representing conditioned dhammas which are anatta and no in anyone's command or controlled by any decision-making. .... <...> > You have to make a selection of what to do. Then there are more > selection/ decision makings thereafter. How can anyone stop making > a choice? .... S: So now by thinking, there may be a choice/decision to go right. By conditions we may then go right, or maybe left or maybe stand still. In other words, the thinking about choices is conditioned, the following actions are conditioned, the results are conditioned and nowhere is any self involved. Do we agree here? ... > ------------------- > > T: the reason I asked you to select one of the 3 alternative practices > great Arahants did ...b) Learn and know all dhammas (the > bodhipakkheya dhammas) that are needed ...c) a combination of a) > and b)> was due to your quote : "Gladly would I have my skin and > sinews and bones wither and my body's flesh and blood dry up, if only > I may hold out until I win ...". ... S: I know:-) This is why I preferred to look at how we read these phrases -- with or without an idea of Self involved. .... > T: <..> "By my earnest > endeavour, monks, I won enlightenment, I won the unrivalled freedom > from the bond". The interpretation of 'there is a self' to 'control' > something, to make something happen, are your own. I don't think any > well-educated Buddhist, or even Tep, gets mixed up that way. Striving > is one thing, understanding the anatta principle is another. ... S: OK, I'm glad there's no disagreement and again I sincerely apologise if I misinterpreted your comments, Tep. so we both agree that any such striving or endeavour are conditioned dhammas and that there never has been any self and there never will be, however much ignorance and wrong view there may be. When it comes to the practice, from the very beginning, the understanding and effort have to be 'right' without any idea of a self making decisions or striving. .... > > T: Those monks who listened to the Buddha and did not waste their > time and energy wondering what the Blessed One meant; they too > made earnest endeavor and won "the unrivalled freedom from the > bond". Such earnest endeavor, the striving earnestly, is viriya bala, > one of the 37 factors in the bodhipakkhiya dhamma. ... S: Yes, with the understanding that such endeavour follows right understanding 'the forerunner' and without any idea that there really was any monk to do anything. ... > T: The anatta principle should not be mixed up with striving. > What is anatta? Anatta is one of the three "characteristics of > existence" > (ti-lakkhana). The anatta principle is given Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59, > Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, as follows: > > Any form (rupa), feeling, perception, mental fabrications and > consciousness whatsoever that are past, future, or present; internal or > external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: each of > them is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is > not > mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.' ... S: Good. As we discussed before, striving refers to atapi (endeavour), a synonym for effort. So here, striving or effort is included in sankhara khandha which refers to the 50 cetasikas apart from feeling and perception. So striving or endeavour is anatta too, just like all other conditioned dhammas (and also nibbana of course). .... > > T: The striving that is guided by right views (samma-ditthi) is a path > factor. Understanding very clearly (penetration) the anatta principle > establishes samma-ditthi, the first path factor. In order to attain the > right > view both right mindfulness and right effort (striving) are required .... S: I think this is true, but they have to develop together, not so much understanding 'the anatta principle', so much as understanding presently arising dhammas that 'appear' such as seeing or visible object for what they are. When there is right awareness and right understanding, right effort is there already. ... > < MN 117: "One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: > This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to > enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus > these > three qualities -- right view, right effort, & right mindfulness -- run > & circle > around right view.> Hence anybody who understands the Buddha's > Teaching would not mix up striving with anatta. ... S: yes, exactyly - they 'run and circle around right view'. Without right view, there cannot be any right striving. I think, with respect, that there's a big difference between theoretically understanding 'the Buddha's Teaching' and precisely and directly understanding present namas and rupas. Until such understanding develops, I think we're bound to often take all sorts of daily strivings for being 'self', sometimes in subtle ways as I just mentioned to Phil, such as when we try to be aware of particular dhammas. .... <..> ***** > T: I appreciate your kind attention on the going-on anapanasati > discussion. I think it would be great if we have a famous meditator > among us to answer all the practical questions that have come up. .... S: Ah, but we have the Buddha's teachings -- all we need now is to consider, reflect, 'strive':-))and develop more understanding together... Thanks for all your other great posts which certainly help raise many important aspects of the teachings. Please don't mind if some of us seem particularly stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere and everyone will appreciate it. Metta, Sarah ======= 45079 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Sarah - > > Thank you for being patient with me. Most people would have already > given up because of my stubborness. But I want to assure you that the > stubborness is not because of miccha ditthi. ::->) ... S: Not at all -- I think we're very fortunate to have your very well considered (and practised) reflections here ::->) ... > T: Yes, Sarah, I agree with you that each moment of satipatthana > (given that it arises) is so tiny. Yet, that when all three are > "right" (1. > view, 2 mindfulness. 3. effort), one will be free from lobha, dosa and > moha in that tiny moment. > > S: > I agree that the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi is there until > it is > > eradicated, but we *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any > > development of right view in the meantime. > > > > T: Indeed, because of anusaya we will continue to have "the lurking > tendency to sakkaya-ditthi.. until it is eradicated". Further, based on > the > Paramattha dhamma principles, one cannot predict, "make" > or "maintain" these precious moments. It sounds like a hopeless > practice to me when you cannot be sure when sati may arise, or > whether it may arise -- not unlike a casino game. So do you keep on > playing this 'random game' until you win or die? .... S: Right, 'you' cannot predict, make, maintain or be sure of anything. However, it's not hopeless or random or resembling a casino game at all:-). I think that beginning to shed the coat of wrong view of self is enormous and when it becomes more and more apparent that there really are just these conditioned elements, the path really becomes very simple and straight forward -- the opposite of the casino game. There is less and less doubt about 'what has to be done', what the path really is, what is nama and what is rupa now. There is less and less inclination to follow any kinds of rituals in this regard (Lisa: rituals do NOT include having a special spot for putting door keys LOL), and more and more inclination to see the value in listening/reading/considering good reminders, no matter how busy we are in life. We can test out that awareness really can develop anytime, any place without any restrictions at all -- even if sedated by medicines or swimming in the sea (Htoo:-)). .... S: In other posts you refer to adhisila sikkha, adhicitta sikkha and adhipanna sikkha and quote from the Vism. I hope you don't mind me reflecting a little more out loud. These refer to the training in higher sila (perfected by the sotapanna), higher concentration (perfected by the anagami) and higher wisdom (perfected by the arahant). In other words, even adhisila and adhicitta when developing have to be accompanied by right understanding and either refer to the path factors. The same applies to the visuddhis. They refer to the development of satipatthana. This is the development of the Path, always with panna. So adhicitta-sikkha doesn't refer to 'meditation' as often used, but to the development of concentration and calm which accompanies vipassana insight. It cannot be developed through samatha/jhana development. We need the development of all these aspects or constituents of the path, but right view is the precursor, like the dawn. Just my comments. I look forward to more of yours, Sukin's or anyone else's. Metta, Sarah =========== 45080 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 3, 2005 3:01am Subject: the 44's are up :-/ sarahprocter... Connie once gave me permission to f/w any of her off-list puzzles at my discretion -- so here's one in need of decoding, with my efforts interspersed ====================================================== Connie: >hi, you two, ... S: I guess Jon is included .... Connie: >the 44's are up and I owe you an apology. ... S: that must mean that Connie has patiently and very diligently backed up all the posts 44,000 - 44,999 and put them on the back-up site which just she and Jon hold the keys to: www.dhammastudygroup.org What a really great help and what on earth can she be apologising about? .... Connie:> A flaming keyboard did show up my island the other day when I'd taken vol 1 of Dispeller over to my friend's place to read, but instead of writing you, I used the fire as an excuse to pay more attention to trying to control my breathing and other elements. Had to laugh when the smoke cleared out and the book was still lying open to birthday reminders: .... S: Did she have a birthday too?:-/, did her computer catch fire?:-/ Dispeller of Delusion, the commentary to the Vibhanga (2nd Abhidhamma text) which we sent her to thank and encourage her:-). So what's the apology for....the computer fire, trying to control her breathing or, I know, sending us the following reminders a few days after the smoke cleared!! .... Connie:> "With leadenness in all one's limbs, with all one's faculties declining, With vanishing of youthfulness, with undermining of one's strength, With loss of memory, and so on, with growing unattractiveness To one's own wife and family, and then with dotage coming on, The pain that mortals undergo, alike of body and of mind - Since ageing causes all of this, old age is thus called suffering". .... S: That sounds like us....:-). Thanks, Connie girl. .... Connie:> peace, connie anyway, the 44's are up now and I'm .... S: And that's it... lost in mid-sentence and maybe we'll never know what was going to follow 'I'm....' - maybe the loss of memory is contagious. Metta, Sarah ========== 45081 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 2, 2005 9:11pm Subject: Clever Investment ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Cause & Effect: Action & Reward: Giving Food, one gives and later gets Strength! Giving Clothes, one gives and later gets Beauty! Giving Medicine, one gives and later gets Health! Giving Shelter, one gives and later gets Protection! Giving Transport, one gives & later gets Swift Ease! Giving Lamps, one gives & later gets Light and Sight! Giving Learning, one gives and later gets Intelligence! Giving True Dhamma, one gives & later gets Deathlessness! Thus this gift of True Dhamma exceeds all other gifts... Generosity, combining goodwill & letting go, is 1st perfection! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45082 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 3:50am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Dear Htoo, I am glad you follow the Buddha raher than a modern teacher. But twice recently you mention Mahasi and Pa Auk in the same sentence This is one case: ""Are those 'rituals-teachers'? Are they Mahaasii, Paa-Auk, Moegoke, Shwe- Kyin, Sunlun, Ledii, Thai-In-Kuu, Kyaung-Pann, Shwe-Hin-Thar?"" I only recognize Ledi , Pa Auk and Mahasi. Since Mahasi school and Pa Auk are now writing books criticising each others methods we might assume at least one of them has something wrong. I look forward to your comments on Mahasi. robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Rob K, Thanks for your reply. I just mentioned these names as they are teaching to their disciples. I do not need to attach to any of these names. I do not say there are 2 methods and if one is right, the other must be wrong. But as far as I know, I could not find any fault or flaw in Mahaasii Sayadaw's writing. May I ask you a question? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air'? With Metta, Htoo Naing 45083 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, Thanks for the nice message. WE agree on most points so I snip most of your reply and comment only on a few points: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is fine. Sarah will be happy as we both snip. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati > is easy'? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Well I have read many books by modern teachers explaining breath but not one quotes the Visuddhimagga where it says Anapanasati is "difficult, difficult" and suitable only for Buddhas and Buddha's sons. Go to many Buddhist centers in this age and even if you are a raw beginner they will instruct you to concentrate on breath. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Again, I remember an essay. It was written by a westerner. The writer > accused The Buddha and arahats that they all had tanhaa to achieve > nibbana. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: You will have to explain this reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am lazy to read it again as it is not fruitful. The discussions are at TeachingsOfBuddha and messages are round about 1500. In a message, there is a link to that site. I think the title is 'Three Cheers of Tanha'. The westerner writer accused that Theravadii invent a word called chanda. He seems to believe that it is the same with tanha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What are minor conditions? And > What are the main? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The main conditions are hearing the Dhamma, considering it correctly and deeply and applying it correctly. The minor are things like food, health, cleanliness, bodily seclusion etc.. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will take a note on that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana > at brothels? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Anytime. Many prostitutes became sotapanna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You do not answer directly my question. It is not a right place. I was not asking whether prostitute can or cannot become sotapanna. They become prostitutes because of kamma. But while performing their prostitute functions, I think there is no one who became a sotapanna. Would you say 'Ambhapaalii became a sotapanna while she was having sex with a man'? Or would you say 'Ambhapaalii became a sotapanna because she had heard Dhamma from The Buddha'? I do know that satipatthaana can arise at any time, and anywhere. But do not just show very very rare occasions. Otherwise many will practise as prostitutes, hunters, etc etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: There were those who became sotapanna while trying to kill the Buddha even. Rob K: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just one case and he was Angulimaala. Killing areas are not the right place for satipatthaana even though satipatthaana may arise according to conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. =============== Rob K: Dear Htoo, This is the age where insight alone is the path. If we try to make a hybrid samatha/vipassana path then difficulties occur. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This depends. Some even did not know who is who. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be held onto and studied. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do not understand. Do you mean dhaatus, khandaas, aayaanatas cannot be studied? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by concentrating. RobertK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon. Not very clear. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45084 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 6:25am Subject: Lisa: Some DSG Messages[ was Re: Understanding realities - nobody ...] buddhistmedi... Dear Lisa, Hasituppada, KenH, KenO, Sukinder, Larry, Phil, Mike, Htoo, Howard, Sarah, RobertK, etc. I really like your message # 45070, Lisa. The presentation of the famous Sayadaw is very good, but I like your remarks even more. Thank you, Lisa, for saying the same thing in my mind about some of the messages at DSG (especially those written by KenH, KenO, RobertK and Sukinder). Thank you, Lisa, for saying it all just right -- it was a right speech. It is important to notice that defilements cannot go away by themselves: you gradually wear them down when you earnestly "change and develop the virtues through exchanging negative habits for postive habits". [Lisa] : "I have read here on DSG that to put for effort to attain paramis is a wasted effort...tightly sitting cross legged with eyes squeezed shut and forcing wisdom, insight and the virtues like dana, metta, kaurna, ect., to arise. These things should arise naturally and one cannot force them this is the message I get, and also it is almost impossible in this age for a common person to know wisdom, insight and virtues beyond just pretending. "With the idea of dependent orgination and the impersonal or indifference of anatta I see you can condition these things to arise through practice and effort. Maybe not squeezing the eyes shut tightly while sitting cross legged for hours. But remembering through the day how behavior is conditioned and if it is it can be changed through effort and discipline. "Through remembering sati, all through the day the flow of dependent orgination, that is the body mind is in flux I can change and develop the virtues through exchanging negative habits for postive habits. [endquote] Respectfully yours, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Hello Tep (Nina, Phil, Howard, Mike, Htoo, etc.) > > ...... ..... > by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw taken from a a larger article. > > Those persons who wish to attain the Paths and the Fruits thereof in > this very life must fulfil the first eleven carana-dhamma, i.e. sila, > indriya-samvara, bhojanemattannuta, jagariyanuyoga, and the seven > saddhamma. Herein, sila means ajivatthamaka-nicca-sila (permanent> practice of morality ending with right livelihood); indriya- samvara means guarding the six sense-doors--eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind; bhojanemattanuta means taking just sufficient food to preserve the balance of the corporeality group in the body and being satisfied therewith; jagariyanuyogo means not sleeping during the day, and sleeping only during one period (of the three periods) of the night, practising bhavana (mental concentration) during the other two periods. > > Saddhamma means: 1. saddha (faith) 2. sati (mindfulness) 3. hiri (moral shame) 4. ottappa (moral dread) 5. bahusacca (great learning) > 6. viriya (energy; diligence) 7. panna (wisdom). > > Lack of moral shame is called ahirika. > > By miccha-dhamma that are likely to cause dhammantaraya is meant such views, practices and limitations as the inability to see the dangers of samsara, the belief that these are times when the Paths and the Fruits can no longer be attained, the tendency to defer effort until the parami ripen, the belief that persons of the present day are > dvi-hetuka,[38] the belief that the great teachers of the past were > nonexistent, etc. > > Even though it does not reach the ultimate, no kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is ever rendered futile. If effort be made, a kusala kamma (wholesome volitional action) is instrumental in > producing parami in those who do not possess parami. If no effort be > made, the opportunity to acquire parami is lost. If those whose parami > are immature put forth effort, their parami become ripe and mature. > Such persons can attain the Paths and Fruits in their next existence > within the present Sasana. If no effort be made, the opportunity for > the parami to riper, is lost. If those whose parami is ripe and mature > put forth effort, the Paths and the Fruits can be attained within this > life. If no effort be made the opportunity to attain the Paths and the > Fruits is lost. > . .... ..... ..... > > With Metta, > Lisa > 45085 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 6:52am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Dear Wise Sarah {Attn: Nina, Sukinder, KenH, KenO, RobertK, Htoo, Phil, Lisa, etc.} Another valuable discussion on atta/anatta, I believe. Sarah :Did you mean: a) There really is something *we* can do? b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated c) This is just conventional talk - a short-hand representing conditioned dhammas which are anatta and no in anyone's command or controlled by any decision-making. S: So now by thinking, there may be a choice/decision to go right. By conditions we may then go right, or maybe left or maybe stand still. In other words, the thinking about choices is conditioned, the following actions are conditioned, the results are conditioned and nowhere is any self involved. Do we agree here? ... Tep: Yes, Sarah, we do. And by agreeing here, it means my answer to your multiple-choice question above is b). This must be your answer too. S: OK, I'm glad there's no disagreement and again I sincerely apologise if I misinterpreted your comments, Tep. so we both agree that any such striving or endeavour are conditioned dhammas and that there never has been any self and there never will be, however much ignorance and wrong view there may be. When it comes to the practice, from the very beginning, the understanding and effort have to be 'right' without any idea of a self making decisions or striving. T: I admire the way you elaborated about atta/anatta very clearly, Sarah. This dialogue should be helpful for anyone who used to have doubts on the ' not self', 'no self' idea. S: Thanks for all your other great posts which certainly help raise many important aspects of the teachings. Please don't mind if some of us seem particularly stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere and everyone will appreciate it. T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " Respectfully and sincerely yours, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > <...> > > > T: So, what do you think we the worldling followers should do ? > > ... > > S: With respect, I think there is already a problem with the question – > <..> > > T: You're right ! I have asked you to select one of the three choices. > > > > So, of course, there is a view of " *us*, *doing* and *something*". But > > > > how can you avoid that? > ... > S: I was probably just being 'difficult' for which I apologise. My point > was just the one that was made recently in one of the extracts from > 'Cetasikas': > > "We are so used to thinking of effort as effort exerted by a self that we > can hardly imagine how there can be effort arising because of its own > condtions." > > S: The same applies, I think, to making choices, decisions and so on. We > think that if there is more understanding of conditioned dhammas we'll no > longer be able to function normally or make decisions, but of course this > is quite wrong and you weren't suggesting it. > > Perhaps I should have simply asked you in your question what you meant > when you wrote the following: 'what do you think we the worldling > followers should do?'. (... ... ... ... ... ...) > > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 45086 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 7:13am Subject: Well said, Sarah! [was Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self,..] buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah - The more I read your posts these days, the more I like them. Your elaboration of the Dhamma and writing skills are fast approaching Nina's !! It may take me several more lifetimes to be able to do that, Sarah. S: > These refer to the training in higher sila (perfected by the sotapanna), higher concentration (perfected by the anagami) and higher wisdom (perfected by the arahant). In other words, even adhisila and adhicitta when developing have to be accompanied by right understanding and either refer to the path factors. The same applies to the visuddhis. They refer to the development of satipatthana. This is the development of the Path, always with panna. > > So adhicitta-sikkha doesn't refer to 'meditation' as often used, but to > the development of concentration and calm which accompanies vipassana insight. It cannot be developed through samatha/jhana development. > > We need the development of all these aspects or constituents of the path, but right view is the precursor, like the dawn. > T: Very well said, Sarah, very well said! Your effort of earnestly studying and penetrating the Suttas is paying you dividends now! Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > [ snipped ] > > S: > I agree that the lurking tendency to sakkaya-ditthi is there until > > it is eradicated, but we *shouldn't* take this to imply there cannot be any development of right view in the meantime. > > > > > > .... > S: In other posts you refer to adhisila sikkha, adhicitta sikkha and > adhipanna sikkha and quote from the Vism. I hope you don't mind me > reflecting a little more out loud. > > These refer to the training in higher sila (perfected by the sotapanna), > higher concentration (perfected by the anagami) and higher wisdom > (perfected by the arahant). In other words, even adhisila and adhicitta > when developing have to be accompanied by right understanding and either > refer to the path factors. The same applies to the visuddhis. They refer to the development of satipatthana. This is the development of the Path, always with panna. > > So adhicitta-sikkha doesn't refer to 'meditation' as often used, but to > the development of concentration and calm which accompanies vipassana insight. It cannot be developed through samatha/jhana development. > > We need the development of all these aspects or constituents of the path, but right view is the precursor, like the dawn. > > Just my comments. I look forward to more of yours, Sukin's or anyone > else's. > > Metta, > > Sarah > =========== 45087 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Dear Robert K, I did not find this. Apology for delay. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert K wrote: Dear Htoo, When I was at a temple in thailand in the late 1980s I met a monk from another Asian country who was a vipassana instructor at his (famous)home temple. He had come to Thailand for a year on a sort of > pilgrimage and having heard about ... snip ... snip ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have read the whole lot of this post when you wrote to other member. I may be wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert K: Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So because of this should anyone not do patipatti? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert K: This matter of teachers to check their students that you mention. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry, I do not understand. I could not find a verb. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: It is whether a tecaher can explain the anattaness of all dhammas so that the student can understand and let go of his wrong ideas that is important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean 'anatta' is to be taught and not to be realized through bhaavanaa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Instead this monk had been indicated by his teachers that he was at this and that stage of insight. He in turn had told (or hinted) to his students they were at this or that stage of insight: but now he found out he was taking unusual experiences that happen due to strong concentration as stages of insight. On anicca. Now I can feel subtle sensations in my body when I focus on tha area- but it is merely citta and sanna knowing them. Khun sujin explained to me that even at the first stage of insight where nama is distingushed from rupa the whole world is turned over. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is just a flickering of light. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: The mind door - which is now hidden by the sense doors is understood. And that is still far from insight into the ti-lakkhana. Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Seeing of tilakkhana will depend on individual's perfection. When it is the right time, tilakkhana is seen instantaneously. With respect, Htoo Naing 45088 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (342) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma depending on their regenerative power. 1. janaka kamma ( regenerative kamma, or reproductive kamma ) 2. upatthambhaka kamma( supportive kamma, or reinforcing kamma ) 3. upapiilaka kamma ( weakening kamma, or diminishing kamma ) 4. upaghataka kamma ( cutting kamma, or destructive kamma ) There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' I repeat these frequently so that these kamma will be familiar with. Garuka kamma are heavy kamma. There are bad kamma which are also garuka kamma. These bad kamma are so heavy that other good kamma cannot overwhelm it. Example kamma are anantaariya kamma. Killing of own father, killing of own mother, killing of arahats, division of sangha, brusing to The Live Buddha are all heavy kamma and they are called anantaariya kamma. All these kamma are garuka kamma. Example being in The Buddha time is 'Devadattha'. He first attained all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas. And he also obtained many of jhana power like 'iddhividdha' or 'creation of beings as he wishes'. But later in his life, he did several irreversible kamma like bruising to The Live Buddha while he tried to kill The Buddha so that he thought he might become the chief in the sangha. And he did division of the sangha just before he died. As these kamma are anantaariya kamma, all his jhaana powers disappeared. And he had to die in despair without ever seeing The Buddha again when he regreted all his sin. That bad garuka kamma drew him down to avici- niraya or hell realm, where there is no pause of suffering pain. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. DT reaches number 376. 45089 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 10:09am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Robert K: > > Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when > conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > So because of this > > should anyone not do patipatti? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, Why do you ask that? Or do you mean that patipatti is only when someone is siting down crosslegged or trying to concentrate, or walking slowly? Do you understand that patipatti is any moment of direct insight into a dhamma? It can't be known by looking at someone whether they have patipatti or not. --- > Robert K: > > This matter of teachers to check their students that you mention. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Sorry, I do not understand. I could not find a verb. > --------------------------------------------------------- You said in the post: Htoo: > > This is the matter of teachers to check their students ------------- > Rob K: > > It is whether a tecaher can explain the anattaness of all dhammas so > that the student can understand and let go of his wrong ideas that > is important. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Do you mean 'anatta' is to be taught and not to be realized through > bhaavanaa? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- You seem to to be implying that bhavana is some special activity, different from normal life. Or that while listening to a profound talk on anatta one is not doing patipatti? But true bhavana and patipatti is whenever a genuine moment of insight into a paramattha dhamma occurs. How is insight (or higher stages) developed: From the digha nikaya Sangiti sutta "The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: "Here a monk teaches a monk Dhamma and as he gains agrasp of the teaaching joy arises..and at this his mind established" (he attains nibbana). Is this monk doing bhavana or patipatti while he listens? > > On anicca. Now I can feel subtle sensations in my body when I focus > on tha area- but it is merely citta and sanna knowing them. > > > The mind door - which is now hidden by the sense doors is > understood. And that is still far from insight into the ti- lakkhana. > > Robertk > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Seeing of tilakkhana will depend on individual's perfection. When it > is the right time, tilakkhana is seen instantaneously. Dear Htoo: you asked > > So what are 'the stage of insight into anicca'? ================================== So are we agreed that feeling sensations in the body not the stage of insight into anicca? Robertk 45090 From: connie Date: Tue May 3, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: 44's up nichiconn dear Sarah, Jon, All, there was nothing cryptic intended... just that the archives are updated & birthday greetings. I remembered saying I'd take my nose out of the book long enough to write when a keyboard washed up on my desert island as I was dropping a wet rag onto the burning one & that struck me as being rather funny at the time. So did my friend's screaming and running out of the house, but considering she wouldn't even be buying this one if her old one hadn't burnt to the ground, perhaps all those people who've suggested that my sense of humour isn't quite what it should be have a point. Anyway, seems whatever I'd been trying to fight off the few days before that took advantage of the situation and I've been sicker than a dog since, so fever is my excuse for any more than usual lack of sense. peace, connie on the way back to bed 45091 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 7:40pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. buddhistmedi... Dear Friends Robert K and Htoo - I can understand why breathing medition is said to be "easy" by some, and would like to give a brief comment. > Htoo: > If I may, may I ask you who is or who are teaching 'aanaapaanassati is easy'? ------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: Well I have read many books by modern teachers explaining breath but not one quotes the Visuddhimagga where it says Anapanasati is "difficult, difficult" and suitable only for Buddhas and Buddha's sons. Go to many Buddhist centers in this age and even if you are a raw beginner they will instruct you to concentrate on breath. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: May I remind you both that there are 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati discourse (MN 118)? The first tetrad, ending at 'He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication (the breath), and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication', is known as "breathing meditation" for some people (who, perhaps, did not carefully study MN 118). Moreover, breathing alone is very useful for calming mind from fear (for example, stage fright), anger (slowly breathing in and out can significantly reduce one's anger), and for reducing wandering thoughts (e.g. when taking a test, or when you want concentration on a job at hand). This latter application of breathing "meditation" is indeed easy. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Rob K wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > Thanks for the nice message. WE agree on most points so I snip most > of your reply and comment only on a few points: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is fine. Sarah will be happy as we both snip. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45092 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Htoo, > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Rob K, > > Thanks for your reply. I just mentioned these names as they are > teaching to their disciples. I do not need to attach to any of these > names. > > I do not say there are 2 methods and if one is right, the other must > be > wrong. But as far as I know, I could not find any fault or flaw in > Mahaasii Sayadaw's writing. > > May I ask you a question? > > Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air'? > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo, I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? Robertk 45093 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 9:58pm Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" < > > Htoo: > > > I can sense. But is that the right place to practise satipatthana > > at brothels? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > Anytime. Many prostitutes became sotapanna. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > You do not answer directly my question. ============ Dear Htoo, I wrote 'Anytime' and that includes while at a brothel. . ============================= > > It is not a right place. > > I was not asking whether prostitute can or cannot become sotapanna. > > > > satipatthaana can arise at any time, and anywhere. But do not just > show very very rare occasions. Otherwise many will practise as > prostitutes, hunters, etc etc. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ We do a disservice to the Dhamma, if we tell prostitutes and hunters that they can't develop satipatthana.-Indeed they should be given every encouragement and as much help as possible so that they learn what satipatthan is, and how to develop it. I was looking for links to my website (abhidhamma.org) and put Ninas name into a search engine a few years ago. One site was an interview with a European porno star who said his current favourite book was Nina's Buddhism in daily life. I just looked now but couldn't find teh link. If he keeps contemplating Dhamma, and develops more he might find that relections and insights on Dhamma come up at inconvenient times . Because if it becomes a habit no one can stop it arising. > Rob K: > > There were those who became sotapanna while trying to kill the > Buddha even. > > Rob K: > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > This is just one case and he was Angulimaala. Killing areas are not > the right place for satipatthaana even though satipatthaana may arise > according to conditions. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- There was also several skilled archers who were hired to kill the Buddha but when they aimed their bows became frozen. The Buddha taught Dhamma and they attained. =============== > > Htoo: > > Pardon. So students must not concentrate at all? > > While I am longing for the part 3, I will be looking forward to > > seeing your responses and answers to my questions. > =============== > Rob K: > > Dear Htoo, > > This is the age where insight alone is the path. If we try to make a > hybrid samatha/vipassana path then difficulties occur. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: This depends. Some even did not know who is who. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Rob K: > > Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas > or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be > held onto and studied. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Do not understand. Do you mean dhaatus, khandaas, aayaanatas > cannot be studied? > ----------------------------------------------------------------- I mean in a split second millions of khandhas have arisen and passed away. When we try to focus on one it is long gone. Thus the type of samadhi that comes with insight is subtle and not like usual ideas of concentraing. ----- > Rob K: > > So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with > detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path > gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but > rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by > concentrating. > RobertK > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: Pardon. Not very clear. > This special concentration comes with detachment, it comes with panna. Robertk 45094 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 10:26pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply buddhistmedi... Dear Sukinder and other interested DSG members - Sukinder: >Why would you call this panna? Even Einstein's coming upon the >Theory of Relativity and formulating e=mc2 does not >involve panna. I think panna is specific in knowing at least >in theory, the law of kamma, the nature of nama and rupa. >And through experience the undesirability of akusala and >the good in kusala and the need to develop this. In other words, >panna must be accompanied by sati, saddha and many other >wholesome cetasikas. Tep: Thank you for correcting me about the Abhidhamma definition of panna. Now that I have studied more, I would like to make a few comments. Tep: My understanding of "panna" was connected to the deep Thai root, it was not built upon the Abhidhamma definition. You know, the word panna is a common word in Thai. To the non-Abhidhammikas in Thailand panna means the capability to know, learn and understand anything, while vinnana or citta is the nature that knows, or the "knower". So criminals can have "panna" in that sense. -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all kusala dhammas. --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of the total 89 cittas. -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] Let me continue the discussion of your message # 45039 in my next post, soon. Thanks. Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Tep, (Htoo*) > > ============================= > Tep: > Now, let me make up two lists of items in your message # 44929; the > first one consists of your agreeable remarks, and the second list is for > the disageeable remarks. Then my response follows. > (snipped) > Panna (understanding) knows, while sila and samadhi support panna all the way from the puthujjana level until the lokuttara level. We need panna to guide all activities (talking, writing, etc.) even for babies, and there are several levels of panna. For example, a criminal uses his panna to steal, rob, cheat, and kill others (for money). But we don't want that panna, do we? > 45095 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 10:26pm Subject: Lisa: Some DSG Messages[ was Re: Understanding realities - nobody ...] kelvin_lwin Hi Lisa and Tep, Lisa, you're stealing my favorite quotation source :P Just remember he's a controversial figure :) Tep, I'm following everything and keeping up with the reading. But I did scrap a few posts due to time and lack of proper mindset. - kel 45096 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 3, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Climax of Calm ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Quenched Dimension: Peaceful, smokeless, wishless, tamed, and harmless, unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled, unconcerned with both past and future, clean, aloof, imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident, directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being enters the final state: The cooling of all craving, The stilling of all construction, The releasing of all the clinging, The relinquishing of all acquisition, Detachment, disillusion, ceasing, Formless, senseless & deathless, Silent, free, blissful, pure peace, Nibbâna... Yeah !!! Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45097 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) gazita2002 Hello Sarah and other friends, I understand birthday greetings are in order - but I'm unsure whether its you or Jon - anyway, I'll send wishes to both of you and then that covers it for this year :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > Even though we are only starting to develop the Path events in > our life can remind us to be aware now, just as they reminded the > Buddha's disciples. At times we may have doubts about the benefit > of sati, or it may happen that we are absorbed by our work or our > circle of friends, or we may be infatuated by all the pleasant > things of life, without mindfulness of such moments. > > Although we know in theory that any reality can be object of mindfulness, > there may be a long period of sluggishness in our life. However, a > painful event such as the loss of someone who is dear to us may > remind us of the true nature of reality; this can become our > "goad" which stirs us. > > If we truly see that even one moment of right understanding is beneficial > we will have courage to continue with the development of satipaììhåna and > then there is right effort which arises because of its own conditions. We > can come to understand that life without the development of right > understanding is utterly meaningless. > ***** > [Ch.10 Right Effort of the eightfold Path to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: its amazing how quickly clinging comes in and wants more when there is a moment of understanding, no matter how weak that understanding may be; and there can be another moment of U. to see lobha for what it really is, however in my case that generally doesn't happen and - so what? its all outa control anyway. BTW. I have a list of the naanas. the first one being namarupapariccedanana. A list is all I have and I would like to know where I can read more on these nanas, any suggestions please, Sarah, would be greatly appreciated. I remember asking a question about them in the Jetavanna Grove in India, but at that stage I really didn't know why I was asking, as I knew nothing about them. I know they are stages of development and now want to know more. Thanks, Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 45098 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:28am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder sukinderpal Dear Htoo and all, I have little time, but if I don't respond now, I may have to wait till next week. I intended to do a bit of research into the section you quoted and the `anapana pabba', but being really very bad at doing such things, I have simply chosen to cut and paste the section from some website and will read it and respond when I come to that part in my post. I also tried to look up the U.P. to locate any past discussions, but could not find it. So I apologize if to some extent I am throwing the ball back to you to do the work of translating the pali, my own pali being almost nil. I will snip away the less relevant sections. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There are people who go to retreats of different traditions and > some did not satisfy. I had an example case. Once one approached a > teacher and learned from the teacher. That one said, 'the results > were good' but later said again that 'the results are not the same > when compared with the teachings in the text in the form of sutta. > And finally the one left the teacher. Why I said 'all are good' is > that there does exist 'goodness'. I do know that there are many > conditions. But the goodness does exist and does reside in each > tradition. I said this because I looked under the microscope of > abhidhamma and each tradition does have goodness. //Sukinder> Even you have on occasions directly pointed out what you believe to be wrong view in other's idea of practice. I believe there is good even in the Christian teachings and Mahayana, but I wouldn't praise them, because they lead people more into samsara than away. In the same way, even if some Buddhist teachers refer to the Tipitaka, if their understanding is wrong and consequently they mislead others, then I may acknowledge some good, but I wouldn't approve of them. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: My source is in > the 'writing of K. Sujin'. When I found that I was pleased that she > simply explained on dhamma. I agreed with her in my mind. But the > followers' interpretation of her points is not that right, I think. > But I read it long time ago. But when I re-discover it, I will let > you know and bring it here up. //Sukinder> You mean all of us interpret her wrongly and you don't? Or in fact this is your indirect and polite way of saying that you think she is wrong ;-). But never mind, we can leave K. Sujin out, after all in the end we all have to rely on our own panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > > No I mean patipatti, as in satipatthana. I think for most of us, most > of the time, any understanding is only on the `thinking' level. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There are 3 panna. Sutaamaya, cintaamaya and bhavanaamaya > panna. Without bhaavanaa there is no way to realize Dhamma. Without > bhaavana, all understanding will be just memories of what other > taught and own logical thinking and the results of thinking. //Sukinder> No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, and this has already conditioned as sankhara. Sanna is sanna, and yes, with the loss of memory, one has to hear the Teachings again. However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. Still I think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound. And yes, logical thinking and reasoning is unavoidable, and this is done often with lobha. However, even here it does not necessarily follow that because it is still on the conceptual level, that it can't be interspersed with genuine understanding. ---------------------------------------- Htoo continued: > But the problem is that what is bhaavana. Again this will lead > to 'rituals'. //Sukinder> When the pariyatti is right, then correct patipatti must follow. The problem is that because the theory is not understood properly, that the choice seems to be between "doing" patipatti and not doing it. One refers to `intention' and `activity' rather than to citta and cetasikas arisen from complex set of conditions. This to me indicates a strong attachment to self and the need for `control'. :-/ ------------------------------------ Htoo: > That is why I said 'which is first chick or egg?'. I just > say 'cyclicity' and not saying pariyatta first, patipatti first or > anything like that. //Sukinder> Yes, and agreed. But still there can be pariyatti without patipatti, but not the other way round. Do you get my hint ;-)? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > And here you are saying that those who meditate, that they experience > patipatti? In other words you are certain that these `conventional > entities' involved in `conventional activities' are experiencing > the `dhamma' patipatti? You judged this simply by virtue of what they > say they do, i.e. meditate? Or do you understand this from what they > have written about dhamma? > Do they ever write about the dhammas arising and falling in the > moment? Or do they mostly talk about what they "do"? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Some may say they did not run. But there are footprint of > kickstart. //Sukinder> Please explain. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > There are definitely 3 sasana. Pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. > > Sukinder: > And these are simply `conditioned dhammas', do you agree? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Just names and label. Pariyatti is learning, giving facts, > taking facts. Patipatti is going over the fact. Pativedha is > absorption of facts. The three words are not the same heading. Please > note 'pari' and 'pati'. Pari here is related to parikamma or > preparatory actions. Teachings-wise there is no such distinction. But > implication-wise they are labeled separately. So all 3 words are just > names. Teachings is teachings. //Sukinder> Are you saying that behind the convention and labels there is no specific dhamma which these refer to? Hope I have not misunderstood you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > If on identifying the thin line it causes us to agree on this > important point of `study and practice', then I will rejoice :-). But > I don't picture myself `sitting down to meditate. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Good to discuss. But again there arises a thin layer again. I > say this because you said you don't picture yourself `sitting down to > meditate. ;-) //Sukinder> :-)) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. > Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That time is after arahatta magga kaala. We do not need to > say 'you study' to arahats. So yes. There is a time. ;-) //Sukinder> I know that the arahat is Asekha, but my question is not if he `needs' to learn any more, but whether he would say "no" to it. All the arahats still listened to the Buddha and each other, no? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So I would say that you all are saying to the lowest level of > satipatthana as rituals. //Sukinder> No, I am saying that what is passed on as the development of satipatthana is not, but a ritual. Satipatthana is a mind moment where there is no person doing anything, so no reference to activity, hence not ritual. To be clear, even reading and listening can and often be a ritual, this is when there is identification with the activity and an idea that this is "what one should do". However, pariyatti, i.e. at the moment when there is *understanding* of the Teachings, that in fact is a movement away from ritualistic behaviour. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing > the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise > by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a > conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to > experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I sensed was that this is just over logification by using > abhidhamma knowledge. > 1. Sarah denied. > 2. Amara bitterly denied > 3. You denied > that someone is sitting under the tree and forcing sati and panna to > arise. I will explain this below and my 'will' to reply was to the > final portion which are parts of mahasatipatthana sutta. //Sukinder> ?? Are you saying that this theoretical understanding is wrong? I agree that logic can be used to give weight to one's position. But you seem to be saying that we are all using only logic. Anyway, please point out if the theory is wrong and how it does not match with reality. ---------------------------------------- Htoo continued: > You all can deny that someone should not force sati and panna to > arise. Because sati can never be develop by will. I do know that. > Hasituppada does know that. Tep does know that. They are talking > about training. //Sukinder> And here you are so "sure" that both of them "understand" and Sarah, Amara and I use only reason and logic? Are you basing this on what they say they `do' and what we say we `don't' do? ;-) Let us talk about `training', what is this according to your understanding? --------------------------------------- Htoo: > In the Buddha time when lent time approached, bhikkhus approached The > Buddha and asked for the meditation suited for them. The Buddha > compassionately gave them and they all went to forest and sat under > the trees and developed sati and panna. ;-) //Sukinder> To those who did have the accumulations and habit to sit down and meditate. To them the Buddha gave the meditation subject best suited to their accumulations which only he could have known. Obviously the Buddha knew them better than that knew themselves, so no surprise here. But even if he knew your, Tep's or my accumulations, do you think that would be enough? I think this condition is only a small fraction compared to the main deciding one, i.e. one's own accumulated panna. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukin continued: > And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever > level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would assing cittas with different colours. Before the fully > matured stage, there will have some weak moments when there is no > sati and panna. Then SHOULD THE WHOLE LOT BE ACCUSED AS RITUAL? //Sukinder> Not only weak moments of sati and panna, but no sati and panna at all most of the time, is what we will experience for countless lives to come. As I hinted above, only the correct intellectual understanding will lead to the correct practice. If indeed the pariyatti is wrong, then there can't be patipatti at all. So the question is not that I don't allow for beginning stages of development and in the process label `matured stage' as also being ritualistic. What I object to is "wrong view", and this is in the very idea of "doing". So to be blunt, I don't think there can be any development of panna at all, so any so called `matured stage' is just a product of imagination. As Robert has said about the arrow being slightly out of angle, I think it becomes harder and harder to correct if we become more and more attached to any idea of formalized practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Sukinder: > As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an > idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is > ritual. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I see here is 'The Buddha just said natually and in conventional > sense for his bhikkhus disciples in the forest.' 'Self' here is > extracted by DSG people. //Sukinder> Not from there, but here, the understanding of modern 20th /21st century Buddhists. From those who do not realize that all dhamma is in this very moment and who therefore don't see wrong view for what it is. They then wrongly see the practice as `doing what the Buddha's disciples did'. Or they theorize about `concentration', `calm', `effort' and so on, and with the full force of sakya ditthi picture themselves as doing this or that to in order that such abstracted ideas will actualized in experience into yet another idea of `enlightenment'. This is living in the head. So in my opinion, even some famous so called meditators are in fact only `theorists' and `abstract thinkers', even though they label themselves as `practitioners'. I think one advantage some of us here have who are said to be `theoretical', is that we acknowledge it and to a good extent know the difference between `theory and practice'. Those who don't in experience know this, are driven instead by an idea and don't realize that they then fall prey to this idea. But actually at the root of this is Ditthi. This is really hard to see. I will send this off now and will respond to the rest of your post later. Sorry to have been somewhat strong today. Metta, Sukinder 45099 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:31am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing Dear Rob K, Thanks for your kind reply and thorough explanation on Dhamma. Tep thinks our dialogue is entertaining. I mean Dhamma-entertainment. In this reply, I agree with all you said. Just a question, below. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rob K: There was also several skilled archers who were hired to kill the Buddha but when they aimed their bows became frozen. The Buddha taught Dhamma and they attained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My question is 'which sutta say this story?'. When I wrote on 'metta' and 'The Buddha', Christine said that she did not know this story. The story was that 'Devadattha hired skilled archers. 1st archer was to kill The Buddha. 2nd and 3rd archers were to kill the 1st. And then 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th were hired to kill 2nd and 3rd and this went up to a total of 31 archers. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =============== > > Rob K: > > > > So the concentrsation of khanika samadhi is fluid and with > > detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path > > gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but > > rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean > by > > concentrating. > > RobertK > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > Htoo: Pardon. Not very clear. > > > This special concentration comes with detachment, it comes with > panna. > Robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. With respect, Htoo Naing 45100 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Htoo, May I ask you a question? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air'? With Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? Robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Rob K, I do have a very special reason for asking this question. The Buddha just said 'when bhikkhu breathes in long, he knows he breathes in long'. May I ask another time? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air' 'note nose, mouth, lip' etc in mahaasatipatthaana sutta? With respect, Htoo Naing 45101 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:45am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Robert K: > > Insight is merely a dhamma that arises because it must arise when > > conditions are right, it is not self, not under control, anatta. So are we agreed that feeling sensations in the body not the stage of insight into anicca? RobertK -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Robert K, Thanks for your reply. I think we agree. ;-) With respect, Htoo Naing 45102 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:54am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Rob K, > > Thanks for your kind reply and thorough explanation on Dhamma. Tep > thinks our dialogue is entertaining. I mean Dhamma-entertainment. > > In this reply, I agree with all you said. Just a question, below. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > Rob K: > > There was also several skilled archers who were hired to kill the > Buddha but when they aimed their bows became frozen. The Buddha > taught Dhamma and they attained. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > My question is 'which sutta say this story?'. > > When I wrote on 'metta' and 'The Buddha', Christine said that she did > not know this story. > > The story was that 'Devadattha hired skilled archers. 1st archer was > to kill The Buddha. 2nd and 3rd archers were to kill the 1st. And > then 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th were hired to kill 2nd and 3rd and this > went up to a total of 31 archers. > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing >Dear Htoo, A good thing to clarify references so I appreciate your question. This story is authentic and told several times . Once in the Vinaya pitaka but I couldn't find the reference yet. The other in the Dhammapada commentary to verse 17. I also think it is in the jataka Commentary where there is a story about the wild elpehant Nalgiri. I found a quote supporting my earlier comment:"We do a disservice if we tell prostitutes and hunters that they can't develop satipatthana.-Indeed they should be given every encouragement and as much help as possible so that they learn what satipatthan is, and how to develop it" Ledi Sayadaw "in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya (danger to the dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the liability of oneself and all creatures to death.""http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm robertk 45103 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo and all, > Htoo: > My source is in > > the 'writing of K. Sujin'. When I found that I was pleased that she > > simply explained on dhamma. I agreed with her in my mind. But the > > followers' interpretation of her points is not that right, I think. > > But I read it long time ago. But when I re-discover it, I will let > > you know and bring it here up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: You mean all of us interpret her wrongly and you don't? Or in fact this is your indirect and polite way of saying that you think she is wrong ;-). But never mind, we can leave K. Sujin out, after all in the end we all have to rely on our own panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not say K Sujin is wrong or was wrong. And I do not say you all interpret her message in the wrong way. As I said, when I re-discover the message, I will post it here. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I say not all, there are some. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45104 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 3:54am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 183 - Enthusiasm/piiti (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm( piiti] Píti, translated as enthusiasm, zest or rapture, is another cetasika among the six “particulars” which arise with cittas of the four jåtis but not with every citta. Píti can be kusala, akusala, vipåka or kiriya. When we think of enthusiasm we presume that it is always kusala. We praise people who are enthusiastic. However, when we study the Abhidhamma we learn that enthusiasm is not always kusala, that it arises also with akusala cittas. There are many more akusala cittas in our life than kusala cittas and thus, when there is enthusiasm it is more often akusala than kusala. Don’t we often take for kusala what is in fact akusala ? Through the study of the Abhidhamma we will have more understanding of kusala and akusala and of the different conditions for their arising. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) gives the following definition of píti: * "…It refreshes (píùayati, gladdens, satisfies), thus it is happiness (píti)(1). It has the characteristic of satisfaction(2)(sampiyåyana). Its function is to refresh the body and the mind; or its function is to pervade (thrill with rapture). It is manifested as elation…" * The Atthasåliní ( I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 115) gives a similar definition of píti(3). *** 1) Píùayati is the causative of píùeti which means: to gladden, please, satisfy or invigorate. 2) The English translation uses here: endearment. 3) See also Dhammasangaùi §9. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti]to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45105 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:03am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder htootintnaing Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo and all, I have little time, but if I don't respond now, I may have to wait till next week. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I also do not have much time. I may be off for months. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I intended to do a bit of research into the section you quoted and the `anapana pabba', but being really very bad at doing such things, I have simply chosen to cut and paste the section from some website and will read it and respond when I come to that part in my post. I also tried to look up the U.P. to locate any past discussions, but could not find it. So I apologize if to some extent I am throwing the ball back to you to do the work of translating the pali, my own pali being almost nil. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The same applies to me. I am not good at Paali. I am still learning. I had been kicked as I seemed not know mettena and metta. Smile to Christine,:-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin:I will snip away the less relevant sections. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This has to be done. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukinder: Even you have on occasions directly pointed out what you believe to be wrong view in other's idea of practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I think you misinterpreted what I said. What I said was not 'other's idea was wrong but he or she did not go to the end of the world'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I believe there is good even in the Christian teachings and Mahayana, but I wouldn't praise them, because they lead people more into samsara than away. In the same way, even if some Buddhist teachers refer to the Tipitaka, if their understanding is wrong and consequently they mislead others, then I may acknowledge some good, but I wouldn't approve of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I can sense as you sensed, I think. OK. I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So, you divide there are very weak and strong. Pariyatti is very weak according to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: and this has already conditioned as sankhara. Sanna is sanna, and yes, with the loss of memory, one has to hear the Teachings again. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is the point where I would like to stress. If there is not real panna, just knowledge is not panna. They are just memories and when these memories are gone, everything will be gone. One may say, 'right now there is light and form and panna and sati know directly etc etc'. But when the memories are lost then the stored knowledge of that 'right now there is light and form and panna and sati know directly etc etc' will also be lost. At that time, as you said, one will have to re-learn again. But as the brain is severely attacked by disease new learning may not be possible. Knowledge is knowledge. Panna is panna. As long as one does not have panna, other's discoveries are not his or her own. Because he or she has not yet seen with his or her own wisdom. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. Still I think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound. And yes, logical thinking and reasoning is unavoidable, and this is done often with lobha. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now that you see, I will leave this part. Extra facts. We need to differentiate between 1. piti 2. mudita 3. lobha 4. chanda ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo continued: > But the problem is that what is bhaavana. Again this will lead > to 'rituals'. Sukinder: When the pariyatti is right, then correct patipatti must follow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you divide there are 2 parts. What I believe is that there is only 'one and a single teachings'. 3 things are just different forms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The problem is that because the theory is not understood properly, that the choice seems to be between "doing" patipatti and not doing it. One refers to `intention' and `activity' rather than to citta and cetasikas arisen from complex set of conditions. This to me indicates a strong attachment to self and the need for `control'. :-/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think that Tep will agree this. From the paramattha-language there is no control. But one has to refrain from bad things and has to develop sati and panna. Just read and think it over and waiting for the right time is not that good idea. Otherwise, if I have to say with paramattha-language, there may arise detering conditions and then one may be drawn down to unhappy destinations. Before this might happen, one has to strive to attain at least sotapanship. Whether you say it 'control' or not, one should strive diligently. The Buddha said 'Meditate Ananda, meditate, meditate. Otherwise, you will regret.' Meditate Cunda, meditate, meditate. Otherwise, you will regret. Once one goes to unhappy destination, he or she will not be able to control as in this current life situation. I do know that there is no control at all. But ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > That is why I said 'which is first chick or egg?'. I just > > say 'cyclicity' and not saying pariyatta first, patipatti first or > > anything like that. Sukinder: Yes, and agreed. But still there can be pariyatti without patipatti, but not the other way round. Do you get my hint ;-)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Some may say they did not run. But there are footprint of > > kickstart. Sukinder: Please explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Explain like a 6-year-old kid? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Teachings is teachings. Sukinder: Are you saying that behind the convention and labels there is no specific dhamma which these refer to? Hope I have not misunderstood you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This will depend how one deep understand them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > Yes, not an equation. However one question I would like to ask you. > Is there a time when study should not be encouraged? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That time is after arahatta magga kaala. We do not need to > say 'you study' to arahats. So yes. There is a time. ;-) Sukinder: I know that the arahat is Asekha, but my question is not if he `needs' to learn any more, but whether he would say "no" to it. All the arahats still listened to the Buddha and each other, no? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pannatti and paramattha. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukinder: > There are many degrees and levels of satipatthana, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: So I would say that you all are saying to the lowest level of > satipatthana as rituals. Sukinder: No, I am saying that what is passed on as the development of satipatthana is not, but a ritual. Satipatthana is a mind moment where there is no person doing anything, so no reference to activity, hence not ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will take a note on it. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: To be clear, even reading and listening can and often be a ritual, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Further up. First practice. Now learning. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: this is when there is identification with the activity and an idea that this is "what one should do". However, pariyatti, i.e. at the moment when there is *understanding* of the Teachings, that in fact is a movement away from ritualistic behaviour. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I seem to understand. :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin continued: > from a fleeting experience of the visesa lakkhana up to experiencing > the Tilakkhana with full knowledge. None of this however, can arise > by the dictate of `self' trying to catch realities, or by following a > conventional practice with the idea that this is what leads to > experiencing dhammas with sati and panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I sensed was that this is just over logification by using > abhidhamma knowledge. > 1. Sarah denied. > 2. Amara bitterly denied > 3. You denied > that someone is sitting under the tree and forcing sati and panna to > > arise. I will explain this below and my 'will' to reply was to the > > final portion which are parts of mahasatipatthana sutta. Sukinder: ?? Are you saying that this theoretical understanding is wrong? I agree that logic can be used to give weight to one's position. But you seem to be saying that we are all using only logic. Anyway, please point out if the theory is wrong and how it does not match with reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I am a beginner I do not know much. But mahaasatipatthaana sutta, which is The Buddha's teaching definitely say that 'go to a forest or sit under a tree or sit in an unoccupied place and sit in with straight body'. But what I frequently hear is that 'this is ritual'. So is the teaching of The Buddha ritual? I do know citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatti as described in abhidhammatthasangaha. No one can create sati. No one can create panna. But what I frequently hear is 'ritual' 'ritual' ritual'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo continued: > You all can deny that someone should not force sati and panna to > arise. Because sati can never be develop by will. I do know that. > Hasituppada does know that. Tep does know that. They are talking > about training. Sukinder: And here you are so "sure" that both of them "understand" and Sarah, Amara and I use only reason and logic? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The answer will be in the answer of the above question. Tep does love The Buddha's teachings. He learned many suttas. I do not know whether you all (3) are using logic. But I would like to ask you here (2). Dis The Buddha teach ritual? Mahaasatipatthaana does say, 'go to forest or sit under a tree or sit in an unoccupied place with straight upper body..' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Htoo: > In the Buddha time when lent time approached, bhikkhus approached > The > Buddha and asked for the meditation suited for them. The Buddha > compassionately gave them and they all went to forest and sat under > the trees and developed sati and panna. ;-) Sukinder: To those who did have the accumulations and habit to sit down and meditate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: To them the Buddha gave the meditation subject best suited to their accumulations which only he could have known. Obviously the Buddha knew them better than that knew themselves, so no surprise here. But even if he knew your, Tep's or my accumulations, do you think that would be enough? I think this condition is only a small fraction compared to the main deciding one, i.e. one's own accumulated panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin continued: > And those moments when the sati does arise at whatever > level, does not involve any ritual but is `pakati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Accumulations? Level? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would assing cittas with different colours. Before the fully > matured stage, there will have some weak moments when there is no > sati and panna. Then SHOULD THE WHOLE LOT BE ACCUSED AS RITUAL? Sukinder: Not only weak moments of sati and panna, but no sati and panna at all most of the time, is what we will experience for countless lives to come. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am asking 'should it be accused as ritual?' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As I hinted above, only the correct intellectual understanding will lead to the correct practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So intelligent people like you, Amara, and Sarah can rightly know and lead to the correct practice? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If indeed the pariyatti is wrong, then there can't be patipatti at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is only one and a single 'teachings of The Buddha'. 3 are just forms. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So the question is not that I don't allow for beginning stages of development and in the process label `matured stage' as also being ritualistic. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: What I object to is "wrong view", and this is in the very idea of "doing". So to be blunt, I don't think there can be any development of panna at all, so any so called `matured stage' is just a product of imagination. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As Robert has said about the arrow being slightly out of angle, I think it becomes harder and harder to correct if we become more and more attached to any idea of formalized practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So 'Sine theta has to be zero-log'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sukinder: > As indicated above, if the practice is not pakati, but instead an > idea about what it should be and a `self' doing it, then it is > ritual. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Chick and egg again. Is 'bhikkhu' the word in The Buddha's teaching in mahaasatipatthaana is a self doing ritual? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > What I see here is 'The Buddha just said natually and in conventional > sense for his bhikkhus disciples in the forest.' 'Self' here is > extracted by DSG people. Sukinder: Not from there, but here, the understanding of modern 20th /21st century Buddhists. From those who do not realize that all dhamma is in this very moment and who therefore don't see wrong view for what it is. They then wrongly see the practice as `doing what the Buddha's disciples did'. Or they theorize about `concentration', `calm', `effort' and so on, and with the full force of sakya ditthi picture themselves as doing this or that to in order that such abstracted ideas will actualized in experience into yet another idea of `enlightenment'. This is living in the head. So in my opinion, even some famous so called meditators are in fact only `theorists' and `abstract thinkers', even though they label themselves as `practitioners'. I think one advantage some of us here have who are said to be `theoretical', is that we acknowledge it ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Now you acknowledge it that you all are theoretical. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: and to a good extent know the difference between `theory and practice'. Those who don't in experience know this, are driven instead by an idea and don't realize that they then fall prey to this idea. But actually at the root of this is Ditthi. This is really hard to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was sorry when I reminded that 'sakkaaya tiger is approaching', some accepted that tiger and even invited into their house and let it to eat them. Hmmm... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I will send this off now and will respond to the rest of your post later. Sorry to have been somewhat strong today. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) No need to apologise, Sukin. Even I might have been very strong in our discussions. But I do not have any personnel memory. The only thing that we should care is 'to understand Dhamma'. With much much respect, Htoo Naing 45106 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:14am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 2. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Htoo, A good thing to clarify references so I appreciate your question. This story is authentic and told several times . Once in the Vinaya pitaka but I couldn't find the reference yet. The other in the Dhammapada commentary to verse 17. I also think it is in the jataka Commentary where there is a story about the wild elpehant Nalgiri. I found a quote supporting my earlier comment:"We do a disservice if we tell prostitutes and hunters that they can't develop satipatthana.- Indeed they should be given every encouragement and as much help as possible so that they learn what satipatthan is, and how to develop it" Ledi Sayadaw "in the case of hunters and fishermen, it should not be said that they should not practise samatha vipassana (calm and insight) manasikara (advertence of mind towards calm and insight) unless they discard their avocations. One who says so causes dhammantaraya (danger to the dhamma). Hunters and fishermen should, on the other hand, be encouraged to contemplate the noble qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. They should be induced to contemplate, as is in their power, the characteristic of loathsomeness in one's body. They should be urged to contemplate the liability of oneself and all creatures to death.""http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6a.htm robertk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob K, Thanks for your reference. Christine will be happy. It is in Dhammapada verse 17, is it? When I said about metta, I talked on archers, Naahlaagiiri, Nandamaataa Uttaraa & Siirimaa, who was a sister of Jiivaka. There is a story. I do not know is it a make-up or from jaataka. There are 2 brother fishermen. Once they decided to do meritorious deed. But for livelihood they could not miss a day. So elder went to a monastry and did good deed while younger brother did fishing. Their mindfulness were not in the straight way. The elder was developing akusala while the younger brother was developing kusala while fishing. I just mean 'moment of kusala'. So I do agree that satipatthaana can arise at any time, anywhere. Dhamma is for everyone. The Buddha did preach Dhamma to king Ajaatasattu. With respect, Htoo Naing 45107 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread (343) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 kinds of kamma concerned with seniority or serialness of all the existing kamma. They are 1. garuka kamma or 'heavy kamma' 2. asanna kamma or 'repeatedly-perceiving kamma' 3. acinna kamma or 'practised kamma or chronic kamma' 4. katattaa kamma or 'olden kamma' If there is no garuka kamma in a life, then the dying being will have other kamma when they are racing near death. Among the existing kamma, if there are asanna kamma, one of those asanna kamma succeeds other kamma and it will give rise to next life rebirth as its result. Asanna kamma are kamma that have been done near death or when being approaches his final days. Because these kamma are easily recognizable for them as they were done in the period of their memory. If there is no such kamma in the final days, then there will be many of kamma in the current life which deserve giving rise to next life rebirth. As there are no garuka kamma and no asanna kamma, then the existing kamma in the current life, which are regularly practised come out near death. Among them one of kamma wins the others and it gives rise to next life rebirth consciousness. Sometimes, there are no specific kamma that may give rise to rebirth consciousness or patisandhi citta. At that time there will arise katattaa kamma. These are olden kamma that were not committed in the current life but in other past lives of many in the whole samsara. This is about seniority of kamma. All katattaa kamma are burnt at arahatta magga kala or at the time when arahatta magga nana arises. As soon as arahatta magga citta arises, it is followed by arahatta phala cittas 2 or 3 moments. Since then all javana cittas become kiriya javana cittas in those beings who become arahats. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45108 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 kenhowardau Hi Charles, ----------------------- C: > In the first paragraph, what do you mean by "the physical bases of contact"? do you mean the sense organs? ----------------------- Sense organs (eyes, ears, tongues, etc.) are not paramattha dhammas: they are concepts. Concepts are creations of the thinking mind. Sense bases are paramattha dhammas that perform the functions we conventionally attribute to sense organs. They arise and fall away in just one moment of consciousness (less than a billionth of a second). ------------------------------- C: > What are the twenty-eight kinds of rupa? ------------------------------- I couldn't name them all. You might find them in Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" or in DSG's Useful Posts file. -------------------------------------------- C: > So, what are non absolute realties, and what is not real? -------------------------------------------- Anything that is not a paramattha dhamma is not real - it is just a concept. You can have a concept of something that is real (e.g., the actual words "paramattha-dhamma" "nama" "rupa" "citta" are concepts) or you can have a concept of something that is not absolutely real (e.g., man, woman, tree, table, flying purple elephant). --------------- KH: > > At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. ......................................... C: > How is knowing one of the namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment, a way to lose attachment and infatuation for it? ----------------- Because you see that it is just a mental or physical phenomenon that is dependent on conditions, that is extremely short lived and that is devoid of any self or entity. In that way, you know from your own direct experience that attachment to such an unsatisfactory thing would be pointless and could only lead to suffering. ---------------------------------- C: > I can see that I am getting old, it is too easy for me to get lost in trying to remember all the definitions so that I could understand what is being said. ----------------------------------- I am a good deal older than you, and I can tell you that it is not age that makes it hard to remember Abhidhamma terminology: it is simply that we don't appreciate the difference between concepts and realities. When we really appreciate that there are only dhammas we become genuinely interested in them, and remembering their names and definitions becomes second nature. --------------------------------------------------------- KH: > An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of every- day life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. ........................................... C: > It is interesting, after reading this post I am starting to realize that the Abidharma focuses on trying to the reader a view (i.e., wisdom) of the world, and from this view, the rest should fall into place. --------------------------------------------------------- Yes, indeed. The world is just the small number of namas and rupas that have arisen in the present moment. Anything else is concept. Concepts can seem to be very, very real, but they are just illusions created by realities. -------------------------- C: > For this view to work, morality and concentration would have to be inherent to the wisdom, or they would have to be preconditions/prerequisites. ------------------------- Exactly! The paramattha dhamma known as wisdom has the inherent quality of being morally wholesome (kusala). It relies on (and arises with) the right kind of concentration, and the right kind of concentration relies on it. But, of the two, wisdom (right understanding) is the forerunner. ------------------------------------------ KH: > > As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. ....................... C: > I hope you realize that this is just one of the paths to enlightenment? ------------------------------------------- There we disagree. I am sure that satipatthana - right understanding of conditioned dhammas - is the only way taught by the Buddha. Ken H 45109 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:19am Subject: Lisa: Some DSG Messages[ was Re: Understanding realities - nobody ...] buddhistmedi... Dear Kel - It was great to hear from you again. Lately the discussion on Anapanasati has expanded to several fronts. I need your keen obervation and knowledge to appropriately respond to these issues. You know, two heads are better than one. Respectfully, Tep. ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Lisa and Tep, > > Lisa, you're stealing my favorite quotation source :P Just remember > he's a controversial figure :) > > Tep, I'm following everything and keeping up with the reading. But > I did scrap a few posts due to time and lack of proper mindset. > > - kel 45110 From: "AlanLam" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: Climax of Calm ... !!! pubbarama Dear Bhante', Hhmmmm......... These are the Piti. DANGER....Its best to be mindful, mindful of its rapid arising and disolution/ceasing (also perceived and ceased and cognized and ceased too), which is anicca, nature of Samsara that leads to Dukha. Realizing this Sangkharakanda, do stay in equanimity and dwell in Upheka, will bring phala and magga nana insight. Release, forego and let go of it, it is void and empty, that which is void and empty of a self, ego and soul, is Anatta. Who sees, who hears, who smell, who taste, who sense, who feel and who think ??? If it is all void and empty, then it is sunyata...............This is the ultimate Nibanna. May all wishes fullfilled and with Metta Karuna. Pubharama. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Quenched Dimension: > > Peaceful, smokeless, wishless, tamed, and harmless, > unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled, > unconcerned with both past and future, clean, aloof, > imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident, > directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being > enters the final state: > > The cooling of all craving, > The stilling of all construction, > The releasing of all the clinging, > The relinquishing of all acquisition, > Detachment, disillusion, ceasing, > Formless, senseless & deathless, > Silent, free, blissful, pure peace, > > Nibbâna... > <...> 45111 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:42am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hi Sukinder and Htoo - I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? In message #45105 : ---------------------------- Sukin: No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. ------------------------------------------- Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about panna are as follows: -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all kusala dhammas. --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of the total 89 cittas. -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Sukin : > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So, you divide there are very weak and strong. Pariyatti is very weak > according to you. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... ... > Htoo: > > This is the point where I would like to stress. If there is not real > panna, just knowledge is not panna. They are just memories and when these memories are gone, everything will be gone. > > One may say, 'right now there is light and form and panna and sati > know directly etc etc'. But when the memories are lost then the > stored knowledge of that 'right now there is light and form and panna > and sati know directly etc etc' will also be lost. > > At that time, as you said, one will have to re-learn again. But as > the brain is severely attacked by disease new learning may not be > possible. > > Knowledge is knowledge. Panna is panna. > > As long as one does not have panna, other's discoveries are not his > or her own. Because he or she has not yet seen with his or her own > wisdom. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. Still I > think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the > accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound. And > yes, logical thinking and reasoning is unavoidable, and this is done > often with lobha. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg]closing off Email. nilovg Dear Tep, Please be stubborn, you are this in a nice way. I keep on thinking of your questions, very useful. I shall reply more on accumulations. I got another thought. I only have a problem with my eyes when reading until late (for me) many, many long mails. I cannot manage very well these days. So, sometimes I have to be short, or leave the answer. Typing is no problem. Another thing. We are vacationing in Belgium, and I close off all Email from May 7-until May 15. I can never hope to catch this up, I have to let it go. The coming days I do my best but may not do much. Nina. op 03-05-2005 15:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the > same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly > stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " 45113 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg]closing off Email. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina (Attn: Sarah, Hasituppada, Lisa, Kel and other friends)- It was an honor and like a classical music to my ears at the same time, when you said that the questions I had asked so far were "very useful". Lately I have been a lot more active just because I think I might be able to contribute something to this very exceptional group. I also am aware and grateful that I have learned a great deal from you and several other DSG members, even when we were disagreeing. So it has been a good two-way street. I still plan to continue posting messages here for quite a while. I read with great sympathy about your deteriorating vision. But I have heard of the latest advancements in vision correction and do hope that you may find a good ophthalmologist to help you out soon. Have a great vacation time, Nina. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Please be stubborn, you are this in a nice way. I keep on thinking of your > questions, very useful. I shall reply more on accumulations. I got another > thought. > I only have a problem with my eyes when reading until late (for me) many, > many long mails. I cannot manage very well these days. So, sometimes I have > to be short, or leave the answer. Typing is no problem. > Another thing. We are vacationing in Belgium, and I close off all Email from > May 7-until May 15. > I can never hope to catch this up, I have to let it go. > The coming days I do my best but may not do much. > Nina. > op 03-05-2005 15:52 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > > T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the > > same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly > > stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " 45114 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 4, 2005 2:59am Subject: Computer Trouble upasaka_howard Hi - I can only be online for a couple seconds. May need to repace computer. I will likely have an absence from posting. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45115 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 7:27am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Sukinder and Htoo - I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? In message #45105 : ---------------------------- > Sukin: > > > > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > > ------------------------------------------- > > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti > and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my > research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about > panna are as follows: > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this > definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. > -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really > are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha > (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have > panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing > as "miccha-panna". > -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very > important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, > according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all > kusala dhammas. > --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of > the total 89 cittas. -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, :-). I sensed it is like a boxer. 1st I thought he who changes was me. But at the end of your post who was on the floor was not me. You addressed Sukin and Htoo. So I considered that included me who changes. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45116 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 7:30am Subject: Re: Computer Trouble htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi - > > I can only be online for a couple seconds. May need to repace computer. I > will likely have an absence from posting. > > With metta, > Howard -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Howard, So...., one...two...! disappear!!! :-)) Take time when you are off. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45117 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 7:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (344) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. The first 2 sets have been discussed in recent posts. There is 3rd set of 4-kamma. They are 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma 4. ahosi kamma These are kamma classified acording to their time of giving rise to their result. In Pali it is called 'Paaka Kaala'. Paaka means 'vipaka' or 'result' and kaala means 'time' 'era'. The 1st kamma is called dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma. Dittha means 'visible'. So dittha-dhamma means 'visible dhamma'. Vedaniiya means 'things felt' 'things used'. This kamma gives rise to its result visibly in the current life. When kamma are committed, there arise 7 successive javana cittas. Javana cittas or mental impulsive consciounsess are 55 in numbers. 29 cittas are kama javana cittas and 26 cittas are appana javana cittas. Appana means absorption and they are jhana, magga, phala cittas. When javana cittas arise at kama object, there are 7 successive javana cittas. If these cittas are not of arahats that is if these javana cittas are not kiriya cittas, then there always are kamma whenever these javana cittas arise. The 1st kamma dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma or 'kamma that has to be consumed by the current life' derives from the 1st javana citta out of 7 successive javana cittas. These matters will be continued in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45118 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 8:58am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - I am sorry that it confused you when you first saw your name being included in the message. Well, you were included as a participant in a discussion, not as the third boxer in a strange threesome boxing event. By the way, do you agree with the panna definition as given by my research (from the Abhidhamma book written by Dr. Mon)? Any comments/additional findings to give? Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > Hi Sukinder and Htoo - > > I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? > >(snipped) > Dear Tep, > > :-). > > I sensed it is like a boxer. 1st I thought he who changes was me. But > at the end of your post who was on the floor was not me. You > addressed Sukin and Htoo. So I considered that included me who > changes. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45119 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 10:35am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition htootintnaing Dear Tep, Sukin, and interested members, Tep, you wrote: Dear Htoo - I am sorry that it confused you when you first saw your name being included in the message. Well, you were included as a participant in a discussion, not as the third boxer in a strange threesome boxing event. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Relieve. So as I am not the 3rd boxer, I do not hit or fall, :-)). But as you said, I am a participant. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: By the way, do you agree with the panna definition as given by my research (from the Abhidhamma book written by Dr. Mon)? Any comments/additional findings to give? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I like your research. Definitions are good and I think they seem to be right. As you request for comments and additional findings, I will discuss on your definitions. ====================================================================== Tep's definition of panna as researched: -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo's comments: This is, I think, about vipassanaa pannaa rather than panna in general. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Research point 2: -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha(non-delusion or wisdom). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not control over. Panna has the faculty of understanding. When there is panna in a citta, there is no moha and vice versa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's 2nd point continued: So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Conclusion is right. There is no micchaa-panna. But reasoning is wrong. Worldlings do have panna as cetasikas. But what worldlings do not have is vipassanaa-pannaa of release or liberation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's point 3: -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all kusala dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have to agree because it seem to be right. But I am not as good at Dhamma as Nina and Rob M, who write on such matters like characteristics, functions, manifestations and approximate causes. Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about 1. characterstic 2. function 3. manifestation 4. approximate cause of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that person. Rob M, if you have time, I would like to have a copy of dry message mentioning these 4 features of 83 matters ( 1 citta + 52 cetasikas + 28 rupas + 1 nibbana + 1 pannatti = 83 ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's point 4: --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of the total 89 cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. Cetasika-wise it is exactly 47 cittas that have panna and they all are called tihetuka cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's point 5: -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: With Metta, Htoo Naing 45120 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self & No Self nilovg Hi Naresh, nice to see you back here. I like your questions. op 03-05-2005 02:27 schreef naresh gurwani op nar_gurwani@... > > what is the difference between a Monk & layperson, is > it that Monk is one who stays in seclusion and > practices & learns > And Layperson is one who follows dhamma but is also a > householder ? ---------- Nina: We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Tens, Ch IV, § 1 (X,31) that Upali asked the Buddha what the aim was of the Patimokkha: We cannot compare the status of monk and that of a layman. You see from the text how important the Sangha is: to preserve the teachings up to this day, to help laypeople to have more confidence in dhamma. The monk's life should be like the life of an arahat. The goal of monkhood is reaching arahatship. That is why he went forth, abandoning pleasures of the senses. He sees danger in the slightest faults, he strives after perfection. ----------- Naresh: Another query why is it so difficult to accept tht > there is no self, iam trying to understand , but it is > quite difficult to accept the fact of No -self > but on the other hand iam very much keen on knowing > only Truth, > So self & no self is a big battle field inside me this > 2 clashes & make my living worse. --------- Nina: Moments of pleasure and sorrow alternate in our life. They are there for a very short time and then they go. We are not master of them, they arise because of their own conditions and they cannot stay. A moment of pleasure is not mine, it is not me, how can it be me when it falls away immediately? There are seeing, hearing and thinking in a day, they arise only for a moment and are then gone. Can we say that the seeing is me, the hearing is me, that thinking is me? We can learn that life exists only in one moment, and that moment is never the same, it arises and then disappears, it is beyond control. At first we learn this in theory, but then, in being aware of different moments of our life we become more convinced that there is not one moment of reality that belongs to us. It takes a long time to learn this, we can learn more by discussing and asking questions. We all cling to the idea of self so long as we have not attained enlightenment. We are ignorant and like the self. But there can also be moments of realizing that this is foolish. Your life does not have to become worse. When you learn what the Buddha taught there are conditions for a little more understanding of the truth. Even theoretical understanding helps. Nina. 45121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause nilovg Dear Htoo, See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I did in my Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied to nibbaana, this is a special case. Paññatti do not have these four. Nina. op 04-05-2005 19:35 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about > > 1. characterstic > 2. function > 3. manifestation > 4. approximate cause > > of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was > thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that > person. 45122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 4, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause. again. nilovg Dear Htoo, If this is easier for you, you could get from the archives all the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV and Tiika studies, beginning with rupakkhandha, and all these four items are dealt with. Then cittas, and now we are going to start with akusala cetasikas. We are all the time dealing with 1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause Nina. op 04-05-2005 19:35 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about > > 1. characterstic > 2. function > 3. manifestation > 4. approximate cause > > of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was > thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that > person. 45123 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 3:25pm Subject: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG Members - The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. There are 10 sections in the Treatise on Breathing; the first three (i, ii, iii) give a general survey before the detailed "analysis of the actual practice" in iv (quoted words of A.K. Warder, who wrote the introduction of the book). Section iv is the main body of the Treatise. The last six sections, v to x, describe the following: stages of knowledge of attainment of concentration (v); initial insight (vi); the subsequent kinds of insight leading up to emergence of the Path (vii to ix); Fruition of the Path (x). It should be noted that Chapter VIII of the Visuddhimagga explains the principal parts of this Treatise of Breathing. My plan is to present about two pages of the Treatise per week. Given that one week (on average) is enough for us to discuss the material, the Treatise review should be complete in 22 weeks. Let's start with the Summary, paragraph # 1, as shown below. [Note : 1 tetrad = 4 grounds] [TREATISE III -- ON BREATHING] [Summary] 1. When anyone develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds, over two hundred kinds of knowledge arise in him: I. eight kinds of knowledge of obstracles and eight kinds of knowledge of aids, II. eighteen kinds of knowledge of imperfections, III. thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing, IV. thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, V. twenty-four kinds of knowledge through concentration, VI. seventy-two kinds of knowledge through insight, VII. eight kinds of knowledge of dispassion, VIII. eight kinds of knowledge of what is in conformity with dispassion, IX. eight kinds of knowledge as tranquillization of dispassion, X. twenty-one kinds of knowledge of pleasure of deliverance. The next post will begin Section i which explains the 10 kinds of knowledges that can be attained by the Anapanasati bhavana. Thank you for your attention. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45124 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:03pm Subject: Instructions ..by the buddha? matheesha333 Samatha and vipassana has been likened to two wheels on the chariot of the dhamma. The buddha said that he would teach samatha to those who knew vipassana and vice versa. The current theravada world seems to be in the grip of sathipatthana and seems to have forgotten that it is not that simple. To reject everything else is simply to blinkered and sometimes just be trying to run on one wheel. If a teacher was teaching his students to meditate on golden lotuses would you say this is sathipattana? If a teacher was teaching his students to meditate by rubbing on a white cloth, is this sathipattana? Yet both these methods are instructions by the buddha. Is there only so much you can know by a 'one size fits all' attitude towards the dhamma? When carefully built up castles of concepts start crumbling what is left? What is left to investigate in ones own mind? metta Matheesha 45125 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Trouble sarahprocter... Hi All, Just to mention that Jon and I are having a lot of computer probs at the moment too:-( Jon's had trouble getting any connection from his home computer for the last couple of weeks and spent a lot of time running round trying to get things fixed to no avail....and now for the few days I've started to have a very intermittent connection too...more technical support coming today, so we'll see.... Howard, hope you get yours fixed soon and Htoo, it would be a great loss to the list if you have to disappear for such a long period....I really hope it isn't so long. I've particularly enjoyed all your good humoured responses. Keep us posted. Nina, have a good trip. I hope no one else disappears....Tep and all, keep up the excellent discussions meantime. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ============= --- htootintnaing wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi - > > > > I can only be online for a couple seconds. May need to repace > computer. I > > will likely have an absence from posting. > > > > With metta, > > Howard > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Howard, > > So...., one...two...! disappear!!! :-)) > .... 45126 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, all interested DSG Members - The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. ========================== You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thanl you. :-) With metta, Howard P.S. For the moment, with the help of AOL Tech Support, my computer is semi-functional! (Part of the problem was with the AOL software settings.) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45127 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 4, 2005 1:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Computer Trouble upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/4/05 7:37:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi All, Just to mention that Jon and I are having a lot of computer probs at the moment too:-( Jon's had trouble getting any connection from his home computer for the last couple of weeks and spent a lot of time running round trying to get things fixed to no avail....and now for the few days I've started to have a very intermittent connection too...more technical support coming today, so we'll see.... Howard, hope you get yours fixed soon and Htoo, it would be a great loss to the list if you have to disappear for such a long period....I really hope it isn't so long. I've particularly enjoyed all your good humoured responses. Keep us posted. Nina, have a good trip. I hope no one else disappears....Tep and all, keep up the excellent discussions meantime. Metta, Sarah (& Jon) =========================== Must be a worldwide "conection virus"! Losing internet access while "on" AOL has been a major part of my problem. There are other problems too, but I've been able to work my way around them. For the moment, things are tolerable. If they worsen, well, fortunately, our local library offers decent internet access. Good luck to you and Jon with this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45128 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:23pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding/ Tep's Reply buddhistmedi... Dear Sukinder - Let's continue the unfinished symphony! (There are several parts as usual, and we'll continue to discuss/debate them till one of us drops...) >Tep: 'Here training of higher virtue is known by virtue; the training >>of higher consciousness by concentration (samadhi); >> and the >training of higher understanding by understanding. ' VisM I,10. >>Adhisila sikkha = training of higher virtue. Adhicitta sikkha >>= training of higher consciousness. Adhipanna sikkha = training of >>higher understanding. >Sukinder: Every moment of satipatthana involves the development >of sila, samadhi and panna. Five or six factors during mundane >moments, and all eight, during the supra mundane. Why introduce >anything extra? Why must you see them separately? Is it because >you identify something you "do" with the idea that one or more of >these is being developed? Tep: Are you trying to find fault with the Visuddhimagga? I hope you did not mean Ven. Buddhaghosa was wrong, did you? Where in the Visuddhimagga did he say the three sikkhas were "extra" things, or did he say they were different from Sila-Samadhi-Panna development? Besides, how do you "practice" (patipatti) without you doing something? How can "nothing" practice "nothing"? How would you remove the practitioner, or the "monk", from the development of Sila- Samadhi-Panna? The Buddha always addressed his monks and then gave out a discourse for them to follow. Please prove your "principles" or "theory" above by showing a sutta that supports it. Now it is your turn to quote the Buddha's Teachings directly to prove your point! Respectfully yours, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Tep, (Htoo*) > > > More Tep's Comments on (I): > > Do you remember the following quote from the Visuddhimagga? > > 'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a Bhikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. VisM I, 7. > > =Sukinder: > I have never read the Vis. Beyond what is quote here, but I do > remember another quote which goes to the effect: > > "There is Suffering, but no person who suffers. > There is a Path, but none who walks it". > ============================ > 45129 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard - Thank you for your support of the Treatise on Breathing. As you well know, this documentary film is for a special audience only (i.e. inclining toward samatha-vipassana and feeling comfortable with "concepts") . I hope you will give a feedback often to turn the presentation in the direction of improvement, whenever it starts to go wrong. | :->) Kind regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > ========================== > You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thank you. :-) > > With metta, > Howard > 45131 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 6:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction jonoabb Hi Tep A quick note (from my office) to say what a great idea. Please feel free to include as much detail as you wish ;-)). I believe the translations of many of the Pali terms are somewhat quirky. If it's not too much trouble, you may wish to give the Pali alongside the English in these cases. Also, if you have access to the Thai version of the text or its commentary, you may be able to add some further useful explanation. Just a thought, but never mind if it's too much. Looking forward to the series. Jon --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated from > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is the > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to this > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > > There are 10 sections in the Treatise on Breathing; the first three (i, > ii, iii) > give a general survey before the detailed "analysis of the actual > practice" in iv (quoted words of A.K. Warder, who wrote the introduction > > of the book). Section iv is the main body of the Treatise. The last six > sections, v to x, describe the following: stages of knowledge of > attainment of concentration (v); initial insight (vi); the subsequent > kinds > of insight leading up to emergence of the Path (vii to ix); Fruition of > the > Path (x). > > It should be noted that Chapter VIII of the Visuddhimagga explains the > principal parts of this Treatise of Breathing. > > My plan is to present about two pages of the Treatise per week. Given > that one week (on average) is enough for us to discuss the material, > the Treatise review should be complete in 22 weeks. > > Let's start with the Summary, paragraph # 1, as shown below. [Note : 1 > tetrad = 4 grounds] > > [TREATISE III -- ON BREATHING] > > [Summary] > > 1. When anyone develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing > with sixteen grounds, over two hundred kinds of knowledge arise in him: > I. eight kinds of knowledge of obstracles and eight kinds of > knowledge of aids, > II. eighteen kinds of knowledge of imperfections, > III. thirteen kinds of knowledge of cleansing, > IV. thirty-two kinds of knowledge in mindful workers, > V. twenty-four kinds of knowledge through concentration, > VI. seventy-two kinds of knowledge through insight, > VII. eight kinds of knowledge of dispassion, > VIII. eight kinds of knowledge of what is in conformity with > dispassion, > IX. eight kinds of knowledge as tranquillization of > dispassion, > X. twenty-one kinds of knowledge of pleasure of > deliverance. > > The next post will begin Section i which explains the 10 kinds of > knowledges that can be attained by the Anapanasati bhavana. > > Thank you for your attention. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ========== 45132 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction foamflowers I will throw my 2 bits in too....Thank you very much Tep. I'm really looking foward to your research and presentation! Also I'm going to do some research on ritual, wooden bowls, house keys, initiation, and remembering where to put my mindfulness! Sarah and Connie hi! Love the humor and warm spirit. Nina thank you for your life works online I downloaded the whole site! Excellent study tool and much love to you and your family. Waves at Htoo....lol Kelvin_lwin, Ledi Sayadaw is conterversial? Are you talking about the Paramattha Dipini? He corrected certain mistakes in the widely accepted commentary I've read on a site I googled on this subjet. I've read that it was common to correct doctrine or add to it way back when. I had no idea his work was an issue, well I can pick them I guess..lol I can't remember where I read that though...hmmm, more then likely I'm wrong. Wait I remember! "Studies in the Origins of Buddhism" by Govind Chandra Pande, one of my first serious reads in Buddhism besides the Pali Canon. More things to research? Anyway Ledi's work, it moves my heart and I feel very close to him like he is sitting right next to me when I'm reading it. I am speaking in the conventional sense of "I" ....That is conceptual and I know it! With Metta, Lisa > > > > In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > tepsastri@y... writes: > > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated > from > > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is >>the > > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to >>this > > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > > ========================== > > You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thank >>you. :-) > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > 45133 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 9:09pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau Dear Hasituppada (and Tep), You wrote: ----------------------- > I see Tep answering your querries. I have not read it as yet. In the mean time let me see how I could reply your querries;> ----------------------- Thank you. I apologise for the delay in replying to your message. My first post to this thread caused a bit too much damage, so I kept a low profile for a while. -------------------------------------- H: > The part of the first paragraph of you post that deems a reply necessary is: > KenH says: The practice described by Hasituppada and Tep is not the practice described in the Pali Canon and the ancient commentaries. > _________________________________ Hasituppada's reply, You need not include the whole Pali Cannon. However, we can take the Pali Cannon which was prepared at the First Sangayana, at which ---------------------------------------- This is as I thought, but Tep took exception to my saying so. The practice you and Tep (and Htoo and many, many others) follow is not the practice described in the ancient Pali texts *when those texts are considered in their entirety.* I wasn't begrudging you the right to practise whatever you like, I just wanted to make that point. ------------------------------------------------------ H: > Venerable Ananda read out the Sutta as he heard them directly from the Buddha or when the Buddha made the discourses when he was present. And Venerable Upali read out the Vinaya Pitaka. Thereafter the Pali Canon consisted of the Vinaya Pitaka and the Sutta Pita. They were the most ancient teachings. That is the teachings of the Buddha for the Order of the Sangha and his disciples. Tep,I, Htoo and millions of the followers of the Buddha take meditation instructions from this Sutta Pitaka. ------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure Htoo would agree with you. He has said (if I understand him correctly) that the instructions for formal vipassana meditation are missing from the Tipitaka, even though (he says) they were handed down by the Buddha. I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation too much, but I will briefly tell you that it is not just the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries that contradict your practice. There are suttas that do the same thing. When this has been pointed out in previous DSG threads, the usual answer has been, "Some suttas are late additions to the pitaka and they are less authoritative than early suttas." It is good to be clear about which texts are being relied upon for which practices. ----------------------------- H: > KenH says, Hasituppada and Tep seem to think the practice of satipatthana has concepts (walking, talking, eating etc.) as its objects. The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two. ----------------------------- My language could have been more diplomatic, but let's look at what I said. Firstly, consider the nature of walking, talking and eating when they are done in a normal, sensible way (by a person who might never have heard of meditation). Secondly, consider insight into conditioned dhammas (i.e., the momentary arising of panna to take another conditioned nama or rupa as its object). Thirdly, consider the practice of walking while concentrating on walking; "Foot is lifting, lifting, lifting . . . Foot is moving, moving, moving, . . . Foot is placing [down], placing, placing . . . Other foot is lifting, lifting, . . ." (I know this is how it is taught: I learnt it and tried to practise it over a period of 26 years.) Consider mindfulness of eating in the same way. ("Chewing, chewing, chewing . . Putting more food on fork, putting, putting, putting. . .") They are not normal, sensible, forms of behaviour, and they are impracticable for every-day life. You can't walk or eat (and certainly not talk) properly while your mind is engaged in that sort of behaviour. More to the point, that way of concentrating has nothing to do with the absolute reality taught by the Buddha. While there is thinking about the human body in the act of walking etc., there is no awareness of rupa (or nama). --------------------- H: > Hasituppada's reply: "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. (Mahasatipatthana Sutta.) ------------------- Again, I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation, but have you noticed the wording, "There is the case where a monk remains focussed"? It is not, "Perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness": it is simply a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness. Enough of that digression: I want to suggest that you and Tep might be ignoring the whole of the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. You are saying the above lines should be understood in the conventional way (that is, in same way that they would be understood by a person who had not already been taught the Dhamma). That is a serious error. I don't want to be overly dramatic, but the suttas say it defames the Buddha. I have no reference at hand, but there is one that says, "He who says, of a discourse that needs further explanation, "This discourse needs no further explanation," defames the Buddha: He who says, of a discourse that needs no further explanation, "This discourse needs further explanation," defames the Buddha." It's very easy to defame the Buddha: his teaching is deeper in meaning and far more profound than any other teaching, so we should be careful before saying it is easy to learn and practise. ----------------------- H: > So Dear Ken H, when you say: "The practice they describe is a hybrid. It is not normal, sensible, conventional behaviour; nor is it insight into conditioned dhammas. It is a pointless, ineffectual cross between the two." You speak, thus, about the teachings of the Buddha KenH. If that is what you say, is the teachings of the Buddha, we, Tep,I and Htoo and millions of others follow that "which you describe". ---------------------- There is another sutta (I can find it if you want me to, but you probably know it better than I do) where the Buddha explained he used conventional language (I, you, he, she, they) without getting caught up in it. When he used those terms, he was *always* referring to the five khandhas. When you or I use conventional language, we nearly always do get caught up in it. We take those terms to mean an abiding entity that moves from point A to point B and that persists from the past to the present to the future. We need to be reminded, time and time again, that there are only the five khandhas - momentary nama and rupa. When we read the Satipatthana Sutta, we might think it describes an entity that lives for seventy-plus years, or that lifts one foot up and lives long enough to put it down again, or that persists from one tiny fraction of a second to the next tiny fraction of a second. But no such entity is implied. In fact the reverse (anatta) is always implied. That makes the sutta hard to understand and even harder to put into practice, but the Buddha never said it was easy. --------------------------- H: > Enlightenment is one thing, Wisdom is another. You should not confuse the two. You should read some of Htoo's posts they are informative. However, it is good to read as much as possible, what ever Dhamma you learn is not lost. May you be happy. -------------------------- Thank you, and thanks for not taking offence. I always (or almost always) read Htoo's posts, but I am not sure how enlightenment is different from wisdom. Ken H 45134 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 4, 2005 11:53pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 184 - Enthusiasm/piiti (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm(piiti)contd] Píti takes an interest in the object which citta cognizes and which is also experienced by the accompanying cetasikas. It is satisfied, delighted with the object and it “refreshes” citta and the accompanying cetasikas. In the case of the kåmåvacara cittas (cittas of the sense-sphere) píti arises with the cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling (somanassa). Thus, whenever there is somanassa, there is also píti. Píti is not the same as pleasant feeling, its characteristic and function are different. Píti is not feeling, vedanåkkhandha, but saòkhårakkhandha (the khandha which includes all cetasikas except vedanå and saññå). Pleasant feeling experiences the flavour of the object, its function is to exploit in one way or other the desirable aspect of the object (Vis. XIV, 128). Píti does not feel, its characteristic is, as we have seen, satisfaction and its function is refreshing or invigorating body and mind, or to pervade them with rapture. Píti takes an interest in the object and is delighted with it, it has its own specific function while it assists the citta; its function is different from the function of feeling. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm(piiti]to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45135 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Hello Sarah and other friends, > I understand birthday greetings are in order - but I'm unsure > whether its you or Jon - anyway, I'll send wishes to both of you and > then that covers it for this year :-) .... S: :-) .... > > Azita: its amazing how quickly clinging comes in and wants more > when there is a moment of understanding, no matter how weak that > understanding may be; and there can be another moment of U. to see > lobha for what it really is, however in my case that generally > doesn't happen and - so what? its all outa control anyway. .... S: :-) .... > > BTW. I have a list of the naanas. the first one being > namarupapariccedanana. A list is all I have and I would like to know > where I can read more on these nanas, any suggestions please, Sarah, > would be greatly appreciated. .... S: Suggestions: a) most detailed by far is the Visuddhimagga, ch XV111 on, I believe. Do you have a copy of Vism? Did Betty give you a copy of the last chapters on Panna? If so, it'll be in that. b) briefer details in CMA, p349 onwards. The purification of view refers here to the first stage of nama-rupa pariccheda nana. The 3 tender insights and then the principal insights are summarised on p.353. (some differences in the numbers and counting systems, depending on whether they start with tender or prinicpal insights and others I forget.) c) best detailed summary I can think of is A.Sujin's in 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf on-line p.195 onwards(just key in the page no at the bottom of the pdf) If you have a pink hard copy that Betty gave some of us, it's p.194 onwards. d) Some helpful posts in U.P. under 'Stages of Insight 1', but I just took a look and see there are some posts there in error. You might find #22710 of Nina's helpful because I think you also asked about the parinnas in Bkk. Also see #19752. .... > I remember asking a question about them in the Jetavanna Grove in > India, but at that stage I really didn't know why I was asking, as I > knew nothing about them. I know they are stages of development and > now want to know more. Thanks, ... S: When you start reading the sections in Vism, you'll get an idea about why you didn't get a one or two sentence answer (there's so much detail) and insead it was left that you'd do a little research first if I recall:-). Maybe next India you'll be well prepared in this regard. And yes, K.Sujin usually brings any questions about stages of insight back to the present moment and the present concerns and motives...Is there any understanding of seeing now? Of visible object now? And so on... Hope this helps, Metta, Sarah ========== 45136 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Charles P (Hasituppada), It's always good to see your active participation here. Thank you for joining Tep's and other threads. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Hasituppada, > Rob K and Sarah have written many thorough posts on the historical side > of > the Abhidhamma, as belonging to the oldest tradition. It is in U.P. > under > Abhidhamma. ... S: See Abhidhamma3 - its origins. Here's one with some of Nina's comments too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29638 .... N:> As far as I understood, the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries were recited > from the first Council on. .... S: I'm curious to know what your sources are for believing that the Abhidhamma only dates from the 3rd Council? If I recall, you're from Sri Lanka originally and I know you're well read. Do you not have any confidence in what is stated so clearly in the ancient commentaries brought to Sri Lanka by the arahant Mahinda and passed down in Sinhalese before being recorded and annotated in Pali by Buddhagosa? Do you not give the early section of the Mahavamsa any credence in this regard? I'd really be interested in any sources you have which show these ones are wrong, so we might discuss them further. ... N:> I do not think it to be a later tradition, but most important to me: how > does it relate to our life? > And, the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. > In the U.P. of our list also sutta texts are mentioned that refer to > Abhidhamma, especially where the suttas are explained under the aspect > of > angas. ... S: The Dhamma-Vinaya consists of nine divisions or angas referred to in suttas. These are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyakarana, Gatha, Udana, Itivuttaka, Jataka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. Here, Veyyakarana (Exposition)includes suttas without verses, the Abhidhamma and any other teachings of the Buddha not included in the other angas. More detail in Nina's comments I linked above. I think as Nina says, the most important thing is how the teachings related to our lives now. In this regard, I don't find any discrepancies in the teachings although there is plenty that I cannot begin to understand even theoretically. I just leave those aspects aside for now. As I say, I'll be glad to hear more about why you don't trust these Theravada commentaries, especially as you have a high regard for the Abhidhamma as you've said. Like you, I believe it enriches the Suttanta. Metta, Sarah ========= 45137 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Another valuable discussion on atta/anatta, I believe. ... S: Thanks Tep. I think we’re all bound to agree and disagree at times here and that’s healthy for our further reflections. .... > > Sarah :Did you mean: > a) There really is something *we* can do? > b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated > c) This is just conventional talk - a short-hand representing > conditioned > dhammas which are anatta and no in anyone's command or controlled > by any decision-making. > > S: So now by thinking, there may be a choice/decision to go right. By > conditions we may then go right, or maybe left or maybe stand still. In > other words, the thinking about choices is conditioned, the following > actions are conditioned, the results are conditioned and nowhere is > any self involved. Do we agree here? > ... > > Tep: Yes, Sarah, we do. And by agreeing here, it means my answer to > your multiple-choice question above is b). This must be your answer > too. .... S: Hmmm... Let me break b) down a bit further to be sure we’re on the same page with this one (I’m getting into quiz mode like you and Htoo here – perhaps Htoo’ll even join in): > b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated By selecting b), do you mean: a) There really is a Self that can make choices until sotappati magga cittas arise? b) Self is an illusion, but there’s still an underlying self or me that can make choices c) There’s no Self or self really, but choices can still be directed by us and need to be until we’re sotapannas to avoid the hopeless and random ‘roulette game’. d) Self here indicates the wrong view of Self held so dearly and which gives the illusion of needing to make choices e) other – please specifiy ..... > T: I admire the way you elaborated about atta/anatta very clearly, > Sarah. This dialogue should be helpful for anyone who used to have > doubts on the ' not self', 'no self' idea. ... S: Thankyou again. Let’s be really sure we’re speaking the same language here first. You may not feel the same if we find any differences:-). .... > T: I also do hope that you, Nina and everybody else here will feel the > same toward me, i.e. please "don't mind if " Tep seems " particularly > stubborn or contrary.. Just persevere! " ... S: :-) I think we all just learn to get used to each other –we’re all just doing our best here and given the subject matter, I think we’re bound to react or be stubborn or contrary at times. No one minds at all. Metta, Sarah ======= 45138 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 2:09am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition sukinderpal Hi Tep and Htoo, Allow me to respond to this post first. Htoo has already clearly explained about panna to you Tep. I expect that you now have a better understanding of this. But there are other things that I would like to express to you both. --------------------------------------------- Tep: > I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? > In message #45105 : > ---------------------------- > Sukin: > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, //Sukinder: No my understanding has not changed in this respect. I think Tep, you probably understand `pariyatti' to be the conventional act of reading and listening to Dhamma, and the knowledge acquired, right? Here on DSG, pariyatti is used to refer to a particular level of understanding, though I admit that often out of convenience I do use this word in a way that it overlaps with the conventional meaning. Htoo, I am not clear about your own understanding of pariyatti, patipatti and pativedha. You say that they are different forms of the same thing, could you explain this more clearly, since at other times the meaning seem to refer to conventional acts? If indeed these are "conditions", one supporting the other, then how can they then be merely concept? Let me explain to you both my own understanding of this. Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. The object of the citta at that moment is `concept', different from when it is patipatti, where the object is a characteristic of a reality appearing through one of the six doorways. Obviously the same concept can be wrongly understood, so in this case, even though accumulated data as knowledge may be the same, there is no panna involved, so this would *not* be called pariyatti. One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in the present moment. Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly. When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity. To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately. Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti and what it is really about. Otherwise doubt and other unwholesome dhammas will lead us the wrong way, because we think that theory is just that, and involving only thinking and sanna. In other words we "seek to practice" precisely because we don't have the correct intellectual understanding and hence real appreciation for it. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Sukin: > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > ------------------------------------------- > > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti > and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my > research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about > panna are as follows: > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this > definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. > -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they really > are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha > (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have > panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing > as "miccha-panna". > -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very > important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time because, > according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all > kusala dhammas. > --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of > the total 89 cittas. > -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with > attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha I,viii] > > Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? //Sukinder: I hope you now view the matter differently? ;-) Metta, Sukinderpal 45139 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 44's up sarahprocter... Hi Connie,(Lisa, Azita & Chris) --- connie wrote: >.....I remembered saying I'd take my nose out of the > book long enough to write when a keyboard washed up on my desert island > as > I was dropping a wet rag onto the burning one & that struck me as being > > rather funny at the time. So did my friend's screaming and running out > of > the house, but considering she wouldn't even be buying this one if her > old > one hadn't burnt to the ground, ... S: To be honest, I think Howard's and our connection troubles seem rather mild compared to these washed up and burned out ones:-/ Is it a)an island refuge or b) taking Dispeller to a desert island or c)the island among all those concepts, I wonder? (Actually, I think a) and c) come down to the same). I really hope that you, Howard, Htoo and ourselves get all these glitches fixed.....meanwhile, courage, patience and good cheer as Azita reminds us. ... > perhaps all those people who've > suggested > that my sense of humour isn't quite what it should be have a point. ... S: Perhaps Lisa can add the quirky humour of the DSG women to her research project.....(Lisa, just wait til Azita and Chris get going in this regard:-). Oh, and add to that research: 'How come I always lose my house-keys in spite of following all those rituals:-/'? Is this related to a)old age and memory loss, b)wrong understanding of rituals, c)lack of awareness, d)too busy with DSG and computer problems, e)other...) ... C:> Anyway, seems whatever I'd been trying to fight off the few days before > that took advantage of the situation and I've been sicker than a dog > since, so fever is my excuse for any more than usual lack of sense. > peace, > connie on the way back to bed ... S: Hope you feel better soon and have the odd delusion dispelled in bed in the meantime. Hope it wasn't the 44's that knocked you out. Metta, Sarah ======= 45140 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 4:12am Subject: Re: Understanding realities - nobody can do that!( from recorded talk) philofillet Hi Tep > Ph: >I would guess that the shame of kusala that arises would > >condition the one to come by natural decisive support condition > >(pakatuupanissaaya) but that is just my guess. I feel > > I am on the verge of setting out on a much more thorough > > investigation of this all important condition! > > T: I'd like have you help me formulate how we might cause a rapid > succession of kusala moments by means of pakatuupanissaaya. But I > don't know such a "natural decisive support condition" operates. > Please give an example that shows how this supporting condition is > the causal factor for another " shame kusala" to arise, following the > previous one in the previous moment. Ph: Please note the tentative tone of my post - two "I guesses." I am just beginning to learn about this matter so sorry, I can't help you there. And "we" don't cause the succession of kusala moments. It is due to conditions. There is no self that can cause kusala to arise. See the anatta sutta (SN 22:59 - "but because volitional formations are nonself, it is not possible to have it of volitional formations: 'Let my volitional formations be thus; let my volitional formations not be thus." This sutta makes me wonder how on earth it can be believed that we can access metta, for example, just by sitting down and thinking about it.) I will be starting a discussion thread/corner on conditional relations (patthananaya) at some point in the future, hopefully. In the meantime, here is a paragraph by Bhikkhu Bodhi from Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma about pakutuupanissaya (natural decisive support condition.): "Natural decisive support conditon is a wide relation that includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent cittas and cetasikas. Foe example, prior lust may be a natural decisive support condition for the volitions of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, etc; prior faith for thevolitions of giving alm, undertaking precepts and practicing meditation; the gaining of health for happiness and energy, the onset of sickness for sorrow and torpor." I suppose a kusala citta such is hiri or ottapa could condition the arising of more of the same through the condition described above - or it could be another condition. (There are 24, I think, in the teaching of conditional relations.) I suppose. I guess. I recommend Nina's book "Conditions", available online. I won't be able to respond on this topic any further than I have, for now. Metta, Phil 45141 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 5:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Dear Jon - Your encouragement was timely! I will need your feedback from time to time too. Jon: > > I believe the translations of many of the Pali terms are somewhat quirky. If it's not too much trouble, you may wish to give the Pali alongside the English in these cases. Also, if you have access to the Thai version >of the text or its commentary, you may be able to add some further useful explanation. Just a thought, but never mind if it's too much. > Great suggestion, Jon! I do have the Thai version and it will not be any trouble for me to incorporate nice things from it into the presentation. But the Pali supplement is beyond my reach (like trying to pick a fruit from a tall tree?)-- maybe I can make an attempt at it, but I do need help to correct inevitable errors! Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > A quick note (from my office) to say what a great idea. Please feel free > to include as much detail as you wish ;-)). (snipped) > Looking forward to the series. > > Jon > > 45142 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 5:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction buddhistmedi... Hi Lisa - I appreciate the kind words. It is true that research and writing about its findings take time, and the mind is wandering far from its base. Yes, we must "remember where to put mindfulness" ! Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > I will throw my 2 bits in too....Thank you very much Tep. I'm really > looking foward to your research and presentation! Also I'm going to > do some research on ritual, wooden bowls, house keys, initiation, and > remembering where to put my mindfulness! Sarah and Connie hi! Love > the humor and warm spirit. Nina thank you for your life works online I > downloaded the whole site! Excellent study tool and much love to you > and your family. Waves at Htoo....lol > > Kelvin_lwin, Ledi Sayadaw is conterversial? Are you talking about the > Paramattha Dipini? He corrected certain mistakes in the widely > accepted commentary I've read on a site I googled on this subjet. > > I've read that it was common to correct doctrine or add to it way back > when. I had no idea his work was an issue, well I can pick them I > guess..lol I can't remember where I read that though...hmmm, more > then likely I'm wrong. > > Wait I remember! "Studies in the Origins of Buddhism" by Govind > Chandra Pande, one of my first serious reads in Buddhism besides the > Pali Canon. More things to research? Anyway Ledi's work, it moves my > heart and I feel very close to him like he is sitting right next to me > when I'm reading it. I am speaking in the conventional sense of "I" > ....That is conceptual and I know it! > > With Metta, > Lisa > > > > > > In a message dated 5/4/05 6:29:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > tepsastri@y... writes: > > > Hi, all interested DSG Members - > > > > > > The Path of Discrimination (Patisambhidamagga) was translated > > from > > > the Pali by Bhikkhu Nanamoli (Osbert Moore) in 1955. There are 30 > > > treatises in this 405-page book, and the Treatise on Breathing is > >>the > > > third (pages 162 - 205). My presentation will be limited only to > >>this > > > Treatise, but it will not cover all the details. > > > ========================== > > > You're performing a wonderful service in doing this! Thank > >>you. :-) > > > > > > With metta, > > > Howard > > > 45143 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 4, 2005 8:30pm Subject: The Noble Way ... !! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Noble 8-fold Way : From right View comes right Motivation. From right Motivation comes right Speech. From right Speech comes right Action. From right Action comes right Livelihood. From right Livelihood comes right Effort. From right Effort comes right Awareness. From right Awareness comes right Concentration. From right Concentration comes right Understanding. From right Understanding comes right mental Release. From right Release comes Freedom, Bliss, and Peace. Thus opened are the doors to the Deathless State...!!! Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 18 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45144 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 6:16am Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Dear Darah (Sukinder, Htoo ..etc.) - Your new, creative multiple-choice quiz has been a real challenge. It is tough not only because the atta/anatta principles are very deep, but also because of the interference from my own waves of misinterpretation having been accumulated over time. I selected b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated, and you asked : Sarah: By selecting b), do you mean: > a) There really is a Self that can make choices until sotappati magga cittas arise? > b) Self is an illusion, but there's still an underlying self or me that can make choices > c) There's no Self or self really, but choices can still be directed by us and need to be until we're sotapannas to avoid the hopeless and random `roulette game'. >d) Self here indicates the wrong view of Self held so dearly and which gives the illusion of needing to make choices > e) other – please specifiy T: My choice is e) "other", to be specified below. Of course, because of my worldling's understanding of atta/anatta there is again some impurity of view unaviodably being nested in my answer. This is one reason, I guess, why most people fail to make a clear-cut answer, when asked to elaborate on the 'self ' issue, and they ususally entangle themselves up in another confusion, another series of questions and answers. According to the Anattalakkhana sutta, the Buddha said, for example, about the consciousness aggregate : "...If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' " [Same for the other four aggregates..] T: Clearly, the Buddha only gave a logical deduction on the self view of the pancakkhandha that says such a view is wrong and why. The self view, 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self', is a consequence of the existence of pancakkhandha in the present moment. Such a self view reflects a wrong attitude - a miccha ditthi, because 'self ' is real only to people who have upadana on the aggregates. Because of the anicca and dukkha characteristics, it does not make sense for anyone to take the pancakkhandha as me, mine or my self -- therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion. With or without the wrong attitude about self or the miccha ditthi self view, the pancakkhandha exists (they are not illusion at all, despite the Truth that they are impermanent and so on) and decisions are being made all the time (the decisions are not illusion either. For example, President Bush was elected and his decision to invade Iraq was real.) >S: :-) I think we all just learn to get used to each other –we're all >just doing our best here and given the subject matter, I think > we're bound to react or be stubborn or contrary at times. > No one minds at all. T: I agree completely. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > > Another valuable discussion on atta/anatta, I believe. > ... > S: Thanks Tep. I think we're all bound to agree and disagree at times here > and that's healthy for our further reflections. > .... 45145 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 6:26am Subject: Re: Like and colours philofillet Hi Larry and Sarah and all First of all, thanks, Larry, for the suggested method of approaching/understanding like and colour. To be honest, I couldn't quite follow it, which I'm sure is due to my lack of range and lack of effort rather than any deficency in your thinking. (It did feel like an awful lot of thinking for something that happens so momentarily!) I guess I'm still wanting to learn the more orthodox Abhidhamma teaching on the topic. Thanks for your explanation as well, Sarah. > > I have leared that visible object and colour are more or less the > > same thing, if I understood correctly. Is a colour like blue > > intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant? That seems hard to understand > > for me. > .... >> So, it's not the colour like blue which is inherently pleasant or > unpleasant, but the visible object which is seen. > > Perhaps it's easier to understand (theoretically) with sound -- some like > when we hear thunder are inherently unpleasant. but don't get hung up on > this point -- it's impossible to know when vipaka is pleasant/unpleasant > and it would be quite wrong to try and find out, like trying to be aware > of motion or any other aspect. Ph: Yes, there's a lot to get hung up on. Vipaka is in the wink of an eye - it is what arises in response to vipaka that we should think about (for now) and develop a more direct understanding of. Oops I used the "sh" word! I thought it was this post that had other comments from you, Sarah, re my comment about not getting "tips" as I put it about how to understand motion, etc. A moment of impatience on my part, that's all. Moments of impatience come and go in a conditioned way. It's interesting when listening to recorded talks how every time certain talks come around, my response to them is different. For example, when the Thai man is talking about his dying mother in the hospital, and Kh Sujin's response. Sometimes I find it encouraging, sometimes irritating, sometimes I don't even hear it because my mind is on my own mother or on baseball or whatever other recycled crud is being pumped through my brain beyond my control! Understanding, even shallow intellectual understanding, comes and goes due to conditions. Metta, Phil p.s still interesting (but I won't now) to consider to what degree, if any, moments of insight noted by and related to us by trusted dhamma friends can help to condition shallower but still helpful moments of our own. I think of Nina's shattered oven door. I am kind of hoping that our oven door will shatter so I can have a moment of insight conditioned by hers! (I don't know if she would call that series of experiences contained within one incident insight or not) Daily life is so full of these mundane moments when we experience a momentary deepening of our intellectual understanding of cittas, of conditions. 45146 From: nina Date: Thu May 5, 2005 7:24am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 157 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch. XIV, 157 Intro: Here, the Visuddhimagga deals with the sobhana cetasikas that accompany the five types of ruupaavacara kusala cittas (of fine material jhaana) and the four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas (of immaterial jhaana). Not all of them accompany each of the jhaanacittas and the reasons for this are indicated. We read in Vis. XIV,86 about the classification of the ruupaavacara cittas as fivefold, according to the fivefold system of jhaana. At each higher stage of jhaana, jhaana factors are abandoned as calm develops and does not need the more coarse jhaana-factors. Some people have abandoned both applied thought and sustained thought at the second stage of jhaana, and thus for them the stages of jhaana are reckoned as fourfold. We read about the jhaanacittas classified according to the fivefold system of jhaana: < (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness(piiti or rapture), bliss (happy feeling), and concentration, (10), the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness(fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. The aruupaavacara cittas are the same type of citta as the fifth ruupa-jhaanacitta. ******** Text Vis.157: (9)-(13) All those stated in the first instance, except the three abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), come into association with the first of the fine-material profitable [kinds of consciousness] (9). ------------- N: The Tiika explains that for someone who has a thoroughly purified conduct through body and speech, kusala of the level of ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana occurs by way of concentration of mind (cittasamaadhaana), not by way of purifying kamma through body and speech, nor by way of eradication and allaying misconduct and wrong livelihood. He said Œexcept the three abstinences¹, because when the mahaggata cittas (jhaanacittas) arise, the abstinences are not made to occur. Jhaanacitta is removed from all sense objects and the clinging that is bound up with them. At such a moment there is no opportunity for wrong conduct and thus not for the abstentions. Jhaana is a high degree of kusla, but it does not eradicate wrong action, speech and livelihood. ------------------ Text Vis.: With the second(10) applied thought (iii) is also lacking. With the third (11)sustained thought (iv) is also lacking. With the fourth (12) happiness (piiti or rapture)(v) is also lacking. With the fifth (13) compassion (xxxii) and gladness(xxxiii), among the inconstant, are also lacking. ----------------- N: The cetasikas that are the jhaanafactors are abandoned as higher stages are reached. compassion (xxxii) and gladness(sympathetic joy, xxxiii), are among the inconstant cetasikas, they do not accompany each sobhana citta. They can become subjects of jhaanacitta and with these subjects, only four stages of ruupa-jhaana can be attained, not the fifth stage of jhaanacitta since that is accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Vis. (Ch IX, 111) explains that they are not dissociated from joy, because Œthey are the escape from ill will etc., which are originated by grief¹. The Divine Abiding of Equanimity can be the subject of the fifth jhaanacitta, since this is accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Tiika refers to opinions of teachers about the feelings that can accompany compassion and sympathetic joy. When they previously were developed, before the attainment of jhaana, they could be accompanied by indifferent feeling. However, when jhaana has been attained compassion and sympathetic joy are not accompanied by indifferent feeling. This question is also dealt with in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 74, 75). ------------- Text Vis.: (14)-(17) In the case of the four kinds of immaterial [profitable consciousness] these are the same as the last-mentioned, for it is only the immaterialness that is the difference here. ---------------- N: The aruupa-jhaanacittas are of the same type of citta as the fifth type of ruupa-jhaanacitta, and thus it is accompanied by the same cetasikas. ---------------- Conclusion: the cetasikas that accompany jhaana-citta support this citta, while they each perform their own function. Alobha, detachment, is essential. The aim of jhaana is subduing attachment to sense objects. When there is attachment to the bliss of jhana, the citta is akusala and jhana cannot be further developed. Adosa, non-aversion, is a condition for patience in the development of jhaana. Adosa prevents boredom or annoyance when there is no immediate result of one¹s development. Jhaana is a high degree of kusala but its development is most difficult. It is not suitable for everybody. Amoha or paññaa that dispels the darkness of delusion is necessary, lest one takes for wholesome calm what is in reality a subtle form of lobha. The six pairs of calm, lightness and so on are necessary conditions for jhaana-citta to be smooth, gentle and alert, to have skill and competence in the attainment of jhaana and its development to higher stages. Equanimity, tatramajjhattataa, prevents deficiency and excess, it is necessary for the attainment of jhaana. Thus we see that not only concentration is a necessary condition for jhana, but that also other sobhana cetasikas that support the jhaanacitta are essential. ******** Nina. 45147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:accumulations. nilovg Dear Tep, Phil and all, As Phil explains, and quotes from B.B., natural decisive support condition includes the condition of kusala and akusala of the past that have fallen away and condition the arising again of kusala and akusala. I should mention another aspect. Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are accumulating. They are javana cittas and the first javanacitta conditions the following one by repetition condition. There are usually seven in all. Some people find the number seven hard to accept, but, it is a fact that for instance when there is seeing, it is only one moment. Whereas the kusala cittas or akusala cittas that follow are more moments, succeeding one another. This condition is called repetition-condition, asevana-paccaya. In our life we accumulate both kusala and akusala, even now. When we are thinking, often this is done with cittas rooted in lobha. When we are just looking at something and this seems harmless, we may be accumulating more lobha. Whenever the object of citta is not dana, sila or mental development, which also includes the study of Dhamma, we think with akusala citta. This gives us a sense of urgency. As I mentioned before, the javana cittas fall away, but kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural decisive support condition. In the Great Discourse on Causation, p. 71, we read that the subco states: I think that this is a good exhortation to continue with perseverance developing understanding of whatever dhamma appears now. On p. 69, the subco about the danger of underlying tendencies (anusayas): Thus, anusayas are called subtle defilements since they do not arise with the citta, but they are strong, they are only abandoned by magga-citta at the moment of enlightenment. Nina. ------------- Phil wrote: Here is a paragraph by Bhikkhu Bodhi from > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma about pakutuupanissaya (natural > decisive support condition.): > > "Natural decisive support conditon is a wide relation that > includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material > phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a > subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent > cittas and cetasikas. 45148 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 8:21am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, Thankyou for your message. You remember Sarah, you asked me not to leave but be arround. Therefore I am there, but hope I am not disturbing the prevailing quiet studious atmosphere from my occasional interruptions. I know you all have patience. My information is that the Abhidhamma was not recited at the first Council except for the the Vinaya which was read first by Venerable Upali and next the Suttapitaka by Venerable Ananda. At that council Venerable Ananda also mentioned about the minor rules the Buddha spoke of before Parinibbana. Which I think was the issue at the Second Council. Parts of the Abhidhamma may have been included at the second council but Abhidhamma was included as the third Pitaka at the 3rd Council. I am unable now to search for sourse material. Abhidhamma was certainly there during Buddha's time as Venerable Sariputta received it from the Buddha, and he gave it to 500 of his disciples. I do not think that I mentioned any where about my disagreement with the Buddhist Commentaries or not having any confidence in them. I have deep respect for the word of the Buddha- Dhamma and Sangha. I am a Buddhist of the Theravada tradition , but I have great respect for the followers of the Buddha's Dhamma in all other traditions as well. When it comes to meditation , what ever different methods are used the final stages of Meditation, concentration , and panna is the same. The Mahayana tradition which has a Bodhisatva concept, and with its Bodhisatta Vow- which is a great expression of Buddhist Karuna, is different but their meditation does not differ from other traditions. My understanding is that there is no where in the Buddhist Countries a tradition of Meditation based on the Abhidhamma. I started reading Abhidhamma quite recently and find that most of what I wanted to read in Abhidhamma is in the Sutta Pitaka , but the Abhidhamma gives the details of some of the terms found in the Suttas which are undoubtedly important. Before you misinterpret, I should say that we of Sri Lanka have a great respect to Abhidhamma, and we believe the Sutta discourses the Buddha made were for his followers in this world. I am a Meditator and I have the Buddha's Suttas from Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta to Maha Satipattana to guide me along in my meditation. However, I admit, I have not read many Suttas. But even without them when one meditates under the guidance of a teacher, all instructions( kamatahan) are provided to understand the dhamma, and a meditator experiences the Dhamma in meditation. I believe that Samatha Bhavana along with the four Jhana absorptions are an essential pre-requisite for Vipassana meditation. I believe in sitting meditation and take Anapanasati as my object of meditation. I also believe in the Iriyapata meditation to support sitting meditation. For me the" reality of the instance" is Sati. Sati or being Mindful is some thing that can be practiced and developed, which helps in the development of concentration……..etc. With metta, Hasituppada. 45149 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 8:46am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada hasituppada Dear Ken H, Thankyou Ken, for your message. There is no need to get offended. We merely exchange our points of view. I read your Post No.45108 to Charles. It was very interesting to read and you have certainly grasped well the teachings in the Abhidhamma. But I cannot say the same when you speak of meditation practiced by those following the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. There you are completely confused.Please excuse me for saying so. I have no doubt you had meditated for a long period of time, but you have not understood the fundamentals of Buddhist Meditation. That was,( an still is) because you are trying to look at Satipatthana Sutta from the Abhidhamma angle. Abhidhamma explains the four paramattha dhammas, rupa, citta, cetasika and Nibbana. And explains the five aggregates and their components. These are bereft of concepts. Meditation by human beings cannot be done without concepts, as they live in a world of concepts. Therefore it is said of Buddhism a pragmatic teaching. You begin from what is known and go to the unknown. It is not so easy the otherway round. If you want to understand Suttas better, you should stop reading Abhdhamma for a while, and begin to read the Suttas with what is called a " don't know" mind. Then you will get the meanings better. Forget about the reality of the instant, and be mindful of all your activities. That will help you to understand that there is a different depth in being mindful and then in meditation. with metta, Hasituppada 45150 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 8:51am Subject: Re: The Noble Way ... !! hasituppada Dear Bhante, This is great. I really liked the way the eight fold path is presented. Thankyou, with metta, Hasituppada --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Noble 8-fold Way : > > From right View comes right Motivation. > From right Motivation comes right Speech. > From right Speech comes right Action. > From right Action comes right Livelihood. > From right Livelihood comes right Effort. > From right Effort comes right Awareness. > From right Awareness comes right Concentration. > From right Concentration comes right Understanding. > From right Understanding comes right mental Release. > From right Release comes Freedom, Bliss, and Peace. > > Thus opened are the doors to the Deathless State...!!! > > Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 18 > http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html > > Friendship is the Greatest ! > and the entire Noble Life... > > Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45151 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re:accumulations. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina and Phil (Sarah, Htoo, Howard etc.) - Thank you, Phil, for pointing to the important "natural decisive support condition" that triggers the renewal of kusala and akusala ("the arising again of kusala and akusala"). Thank you Nina, again and again, for putting together the necessary background information that helps ring the bell loud and clear to my ears. Yes, you have successfully transmitted the message on accumulations. In addition to learning the Abhidhamma principles, I am also learning from you how to communicate more effectively. Questions: 1. What is the significance, if any, of the number 7? Can it be 6 or 8? 2. Are javana cittas the only kind of cittas that repeat themselves? Is such repeating characteristic a necessary condition for the accumulation phenomenon? 3. When you say, "Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are accumulating", do you mean the two cittas are acumulating kusala and akusala kammas, respectively? 4. You wrote, "kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural decisive support condition". Where are the accumulated kusala or akusala kamma stored, if they don't fall away? Or, do the accumulated kammas get passed on to the subsequent cittas? Does memory or perception play a role in the accumulations at all? 5. Since anusayas do not arise with the cittas and they don't get eradicated until the moment of Enlightenment, where are they hiding all the time ? Below is a summary of the main points on accumulations with my own deductions. Please give me a feedback as to the accuracy of the deductions. 1. Subsequent cittas and cetasikas ("conditioned states") arise because "all past mental or material phenomena" act as the "conditioning states", and because of the natural decisive support condition(pakutuupanissaya). Without the pakutuupanissaya there will be no arising of future cittas and cetasikas. 2. The conditioning states are sankhara dhamma, while the subsequent cittas and cetasikas are the sankhata dhamma. 3. The first javana citta conditions ("fires") the following one to arise, and the following one conditions the third one, and so on, for the total of 7 jhavana cittas. Only javana cittas can accumulate kamma because of the unique repetition condition only accompanies jhavana cittas. 4. The recurrent arising of knowledge and understanding accompanies javana cittas because such recurrent phenomenon is supported by the repetition condition (asevana-paccaya). I tried to keep this post as short as I could!I promise to make it shorter next time. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, Phil and all, > (snipped) > developing understanding of whatever dhamma appears now. > On p. 69, the subco about the danger of underlying tendencies > (anusayas): Thus, anusayas are called subtle defilements since they do not arise with the citta, but they are strong, they are only abandoned by magga- citta at the moment of enlightenment. > Nina. > ------------- > Phil wrote: > Here is a paragraph by Bhikkhu Bodhi from > > Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma about pakutuupanissaya (natural > > decisive support condition.): > > > > "Natural decisive support conditon is a wide relation that > > includes as the conditioning states all past mental or material > > phenomena that become strongly efficacious for the arising, at a > > subsequent time, of the conditioned states, which are subsequent > > cittas and cetasikas. 45152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pariyatti. nilovg Hi Sukin, The way you explain this I find very helpful. It is a good reminder and clearly shows that we should be passive, thinking: just see what happens. I shall type it out for Lodewijk, taking it along on our vacation. Good for discussion! Nina. op 05-05-2005 11:09 schreef Sukinder op sukinder@...: > When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that > this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very > phenomena. The level of understanding may not be such that the > characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However, > there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and > with some confidence. At such beginning level, there is already a > planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of > satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood > through direct experience. > > The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more > and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can > reach the level of saccannana. The theory has been verified through > experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied > and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other > time, place or activity. > > To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of > wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently > arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends > the mind to the present moment. In the beginning the understanding is > weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, > that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by > the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience > arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to > greater understanding of the six worlds separately. 45153 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Like and colours nilovg Hi Phil, It is actually as Sukin explained so well in his post about pariyatti. Nina. op 05-05-2005 15:26 schreef Philip op philco777@...: > I think of Nina's shattered oven door. I am kind > of hoping that our oven door will shatter so I can have a moment of > insight conditioned by hers! (I don't know if she would call that > series of experiences contained within one incident insight or not) > Daily life is so full of these mundane moments when we experience a > momentary deepening of our intellectual understanding of cittas, of > conditions. 45154 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada nilovg Dear Haistuppada, you make an interesting remark, but perhaps I apply it differently from you. It does not matter. I think of the satipatthana sutta: the Buddha used concepts common to our daily life: breathing, parts of the body, corpses. Why? To bring us back to paramattha dhamma now. As you formulate (which I like): go to the unknown. Yes, the elements, khandhas, nama and rupa are new to us. We never heard about them before. The Buddha reminds us: all those body parts we are attached to, they are only elements. Nina. op 05-05-2005 17:46 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: > Meditation by human beings cannot be done without concepts, as they > live in a world of concepts. Therefore it is said of Buddhism a > pragmatic teaching. You begin from what is known and go to the > unknown. 45155 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 5, 2005 0:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:accumulations. nilovg Dear Tep, op 05-05-2005 19:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: > 1. What is the significance, if any, of the number 7? Can it be 6 or 8? ------------ N: Just before death javana cittas are five, they are weak. They are usually seven, but here I do not speak of jhanacittas. ---------- T: 2. Are javana cittas the only kind of cittas that repeat themselves? Is > such repeating characteristic a necessary condition for the > accumulation phenomenon? ------------------ N: Javanacittas of non arahats are kusala or akusala. Only javanacittas are repetition-condition, except the last one. There may be two types of retention but these are not repetition condition. --------------- T: 3. When you say, "Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are > accumulating", do you mean the two cittas are acumulating kusala and > akusala kammas, respectively? --------------- N: It depends on the intensity. When they have the intensity of kamma patha , kamma is accumulated and will produce vipaka. Also, the inclination to kusala and akusala is accumulated. This is intricate. When a deed is performed such as giving, there are many different cittas at such moments. There may also be stinginess, and this causes the vipaka to be less abundant. It has influence. ----------- T: 4. You wrote, "kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition > the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural > decisive support condition". Where are the accumulated kusala or > akusala kamma stored, if they don't fall away? ----- N: They cannot be stored, but they are passed on from one citta to the next, and they are in constant change since new accumulations are added. ----------- T: Or, do the accumulated > kammas get passed on to the subsequent cittas? Does memory or > perception play a role in the accumulations at all? --------- N: Yes, also the kammas are passed on. That is, those that are capable of producing result. Not the very weak lobha such as putting butter on your bread, But this weak lobha is accumulated as an inclination. Lodewijk says that he realizes that taking a drink is accumulated little by little. He knows this. I answered: that is why Kh. Sujin said: just be aware, and would not critizise. She would not say: do not drink. He answered: that is it. By sati one will know. Sati will stop it. (Ken H will like this). As to saññaa: this remembers experiences, events, so that you can recall them. It is saññaa, not you who remembers. Saññaa remembers: this wine tastes good. Another example. Lodewijk reads on tape Kh. Sujin's Perfections on her request. He accumulates a lot of kusala with this work. He speaks so convincingly about determination perfection, how important it is, that it works as a good reminder for me. Not because he is my husband (I should not be partial), but I am so impressed. I think it can help others to have more confidence in the accumulation of perfections when they hear him speak with such confidence. ------- T: 5. Since anusayas do not arise with the cittas and they don't get > eradicated until the moment of Enlightenment, where are they hiding all > the time ? N: In each citta. Then in the next one, then in the next one. Isn't that tricky? _______ > T: 1. Subsequent cittas and cetasikas ("conditioned states") arise > because "all past mental or material phenomena" act as > the "conditioning states", and because of the natural decisive support > condition(pakutuupanissaya). Without the pakutuupanissaya there will > be no arising of future cittas and cetasikas. ------ N: I would not call this a condition for their arising. Ignorance is the first link! The natural decisive support condition and all the conditions belong to our life in samsara. Cannot be helped. ------------- T: 2. The conditioning states are sankhara dhamma, while the > subsequent cittas and cetasikas are the sankhata dhamma. --------- N: I would not make this differentiation. sankhara dhamma and sankhata dhamma refer to the same dhammas. They show a different aspect of the same dhammas. sankhata dhamma: stresses:what has arisen because of conditions has to fall away. ----------- T: 3. The first javana citta conditions ("fires") the following one to arise, > and the following one conditions the third one, and so on, for the total of > 7 jhavana cittas. Only javana cittas can accumulate kamma ----- N: Javana cittas accumulate kamma and kilesa as the Expositor explains. ------- T: because > of the unique repetition condition only accompanies jhavana cittas. ---------- N: I would not say: because. They happen to be repetition-condition for the following one, but also anantara condition, contiguity condition, operates. ----------- T: 4. The recurrent arising of knowledge and understanding > accompanies javana cittas because such recurrent phenomenon is > supported by the repetition condition (asevana-paccaya). ----------- N: this recurrence *is* repetition condition. During those moments. But they are accumulated and condition the arising again of paññaa. The accumulation and natural dependence condition are important here. ***** Nina. 45156 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:20pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hi Sunkinder, Htoo, Nina, RobertK - In the previous message (#45111 ) I presented the description of panna from the Abhidhamma book by Dr. Mon . > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about panna are as follows: > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. (snipped) T: The panna as "knowing things as they really are" is clearly beyond the worldlings' level that is implied in your post to Htoo earlier, "However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again". Also you wrote, "Still I think, patipatti does happen sometime, and this reinforces the accumulated panna making it not as weak as you make it sound." All these show that you did not know that panna belongs to ariya puggalas only. Htoo responded in the message #45119 to my request that he comment on Dr. Mon's definition. T: > ....Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things >according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. ------------------------------------ Htoo's comments: This is, I think, about vipassanaa pannaa rather than panna in general. ------------------------------------- Tep's 2nd point continued: So it is clear that worldings do not have panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing as "miccha-panna". ------------------------------------- Htoo: Conclusion is right. There is no micchaa-panna. But reasoning is wrong. Worldlings do have panna as cetasikas. But what worldlings do not have is vipassanaa-pannaa of release or liberation. ------------------------------------ T: I think Htoo's opinion that "Worldlings do have panna as cetasikas" contradicts to Dr. Mon and to Htoo's earlier statement, i.e. when he agreed that panna was the same as yathabhuta-nana. So I am not sure what you meant as you wrote in your message #45138, "Htoo has already clearly explained about panna to you Tep. I expect that you now have a better understanding of this". No, Sukinder, Htoo has not been clear. Now he should explain his contradicting statements before I continue the discussion. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > Hi Tep and Htoo, > > Allow me to respond to this post first. > > Htoo has already clearly explained about panna to you Tep. I expect that > you now have a better understanding of this. But there are other things > that I would like to express to you both. > --------------------------------------------- > > Tep: > > I was surprised that your understanding of panna seemed to change!? > > In message #45105 : > > ---------------------------- > > Sukin: > > No, I don't agree. Pariyatti is still panna, though very weak, > (snipped) > > Sukin: > > However the accumulated panna still has the chance to bear fruit, but > > because this level of panna is mostly dependent on `words', it needs > > a good dhamma friend to bring back on track again and again. > > ------------------------------------------- > > > > Tep: I think you were completely off track! Panna is beyond pariyatti > > and only ariya puggalas (not worldings) have panna. According to my > > research which I reported in message # 45094 , the key ideas about > > panna are as follows: > > > > -- The Abhidhamma doctrine defines panna as "knowing things as > > they really are". Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things > > according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda). By this > > definition panna is the same as yathabhuta-nana. > > -- Panna has the control over the understanding of things as they > really > > are, because it overcomes ignorance (avijja), it is called amoha > > (non-delusion or wisdom). So it is clear that worldings do not have > > panna, only ariya puggalas do. Therefore, there is no such thing > > as "miccha-panna". > > -- Its proximate cause is wise attention (yoniso manasikara). It is very > > important that we keep this understanding in mind all the time > because, > > according to our Greatest Teacher, wise attention is the mula of all > > kusala dhammas. > > --Panna is one of the cetasikas and it is associated only with 47 out of > > the total 89 cittas. > > -- One who is devoted to mental training takes hold of the mind with > > attention and cuts off the defilements with wisdom. [Milindapanha > I,viii] > > > > Now, what do you have to say, Sukinder? > > //Sukinder: > I hope you now view the matter differently? ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukinderpal 45157 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 1:49pm Subject: Re:accumulations. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Thank you so very much for the detailed answers to my questions. There are several points that still are not clear yet, and so I will need to come back to study them again. All the time I am aware of your weaken eyes and the pains that are resulted from readings long emails. I remember one of your recent emails saying that you are going to stop answering emails soon. I hope that may not happen at all. By the way, do you plan to see an eye specialist soon? There are some pros and cons. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > > op 05-05-2005 19:38 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@y...: > > 1. What is the significance, if any, of the number 7? Can it be 6 or 8? > ------------ > N: Just before death javana cittas are five, they are weak. They are usually > seven, but here I do not speak of jhanacittas. > ---------- > T: 2. Are javana cittas the only kind of cittas that repeat themselves? Is > > such repeating characteristic a necessary condition for the > > accumulation phenomenon? > ------------------ > N: Javanacittas of non arahats are kusala or akusala. Only javanacittas are > repetition-condition, except the last one. There may be two types of > retention but these are not repetition condition. > --------------- > T: 3. When you say, "Kusala citta and akusala citta at this moment are > > accumulating", do you mean the two cittas are acumulating kusala and > > akusala kammas, respectively? > --------------- > N: It depends on the intensity. When they have the intensity of kamma patha > , kamma is accumulated and will produce vipaka. Also, the inclination to > kusala and akusala is accumulated. > This is intricate. When a deed is performed such as giving, there are many > different cittas at such moments. There may also be stinginess, and this > causes the vipaka to be less abundant. It has influence. > ----------- > T: 4. You wrote, "kusala and akusala are accumulated and can condition > > the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta again by way of natural > > decisive support condition". Where are the accumulated kusala or > > akusala kamma stored, if they don't fall away? > ----- > N: They cannot be stored, but they are passed on from one citta to the next, > and they are in constant change since new accumulations are added. > ----------- > T: Or, do the accumulated > > kammas get passed on to the subsequent cittas? Does memory or > > perception play a role in the accumulations at all? > --------- > N: Yes, also the kammas are passed on. That is, those that are capable of > producing result. Not the very weak lobha such as putting butter on your > bread, But this weak lobha is accumulated as an inclination. > Lodewijk says that he realizes that taking a drink is accumulated little by > little. He knows this. I answered: that is why Kh. Sujin said: just be > aware, and would not critizise. She would not say: do not drink. He > answered: that is it. By sati one will know. Sati will stop it. (Ken H will > like this). > As to saññaa: this remembers experiences, events, so that you can recall > them. It is saññaa, not you who remembers. Saññaa remembers: this wine > tastes good. > Another example. Lodewijk reads on tape Kh. Sujin's Perfections on her > request. He accumulates a lot of kusala with this work. He speaks so > convincingly about determination perfection, how important it is, that it > works as a good reminder for me. Not because he is my husband (I should not > be partial), but I am so impressed. I think it can help others to have more > confidence in the accumulation of perfections when they hear him speak with > such confidence. > ------- > T: 5. Since anusayas do not arise with the cittas and they don't get > > eradicated until the moment of Enlightenment, where are they hiding all > > the time ? > N: In each citta. Then in the next one, then in the next one. Isn't that > tricky? > _______ > > T: 1. Subsequent cittas and cetasikas ("conditioned states") arise > > because "all past mental or material phenomena" act as > > the "conditioning states", and because of the natural decisive support > > condition(pakutuupanissaya). Without the pakutuupanissaya there will > > be no arising of future cittas and cetasikas. > ------ > N: I would not call this a condition for their arising. Ignorance is the > first link! The natural decisive support condition and all the conditions > belong to our life in samsara. Cannot be helped. > ------------- > T: 2. The conditioning states are sankhara dhamma, while the > > subsequent cittas and cetasikas are the sankhata dhamma. > --------- > N: I would not make this differentiation. sankhara dhamma and sankhata > dhamma refer to the same dhammas. They show a different aspect of the same > dhammas. sankhata dhamma: stresses:what has arisen because of conditions has > to fall away. > ----------- > T: 3. The first javana citta conditions ("fires") the following one to > arise, > > and the following one conditions the third one, and so on, for the total of > > 7 jhavana cittas. Only javana cittas can accumulate kamma > ----- > N: Javana cittas accumulate kamma and kilesa as the Expositor explains. > ------- > T: because > > of the unique repetition condition only accompanies jhavana cittas. > ---------- > N: I would not say: because. They happen to be repetition-condition for the > following one, but also anantara condition, contiguity condition, operates. > ----------- > T: 4. The recurrent arising of knowledge and understanding > > accompanies javana cittas because such recurrent phenomenon is > > supported by the repetition condition (asevana-paccaya). > ----------- > N: this recurrence *is* repetition condition. During those moments. But they > are accumulated and condition the arising again of paññaa. The accumulation > and natural dependence condition are important here. > ***** > Nina. 45158 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 4:18pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). Pannindriya is normally called 'panna cetasika'. In abhidhamma, panna, nana and amoha are synonyms. Amoha is one of the three moral roots. As one of the four means of accomplishing one's ends (iddhipada), panna takes the name of vimansa (analytical wisdom). When purified and cultivated by samadhi, panna assumes the powerful role of abhinna (supernormal knowledge). When highly developed, panna becomes a factor of enlightenment (bojjhanga) under the name of dhamma-vicaya (investigation of the truth), and also a component of the Noble Eightfold Path under the name of samma-ditthi (right view). The culmination of panna is the omniscience of Buddha. *** kel: Sorry to say but you reached the wrong conclusion. All eight kusala cittas have no moha but 4 have amoha. That's the difference between dvihetuka and tihektuka people. All jhana cittas also have amoha/panna. nana is also a general word and even vipassana nanas are still loki panna, only magga/phala nanas are lokuttara. Even for the same kusala citta with amoha, the quality of the panna isn't necessarily the same. His last comment is saying the highest panna is that of a Buddha and even then we know not all Buddhas achieved the same power/qualities. - kel 45159 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 4:47pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hello Kel (Htoo, Sukinder and Nina) - I am glad you had time to write a post. Kel : Sorry to say but you reached the wrong conclusion. All eight > kusala cittas have no moha but 4 have amoha. That's the difference > between dvihetuka and tihektuka people. All jhana cittas also have > amoha/panna. nana is also a general word and even vipassana nanas are still loki panna, only magga/phala nanas are lokuttara. Even for the same kusala citta with amoha, the quality of the panna isn't > necessarily the same. T: You mean I was wrong in using Dr. Mon's statement ["Panna has the characteristic of penetrating things according to their intrinsic nature (yatha-sabhava-pativeda)"] to make the conclusion that panna was the same as yathabhuta-nana ? But your quote from Dr. Mon book seems to indicate that panna is beyond the ordinary people : > Kel : I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? > > Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or > wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). > Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi Tep, > 45160 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 5:16pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, You're taking momentary unveiling of the cloud to mean destruction of the cloud. Ordinary people have to accumulate these moments and gain momentum toward destruction. Without this mechanism 3rd and 4th noble truths wouldn't exist. You're defining panna as the one which can cause the final destruction of the veil which is certainly one of the functions but it's not the only one. The definition of panna cetasika in Abhidhamma just isn't so strict unless you want to call it lokuttara panna. You can look at the charts in the back of Dr. Mon's book if you want to see what cittas and cetasikas exist together. - kel > But your quote from Dr. Mon book seems to indicate that panna is > beyond the ordinary people : > > > Kel : I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? > > > > Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non-delusion or > > wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding > man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha > (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). 45161 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 7:54pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhistmedi... Hi Kel - You've made a great point, and it is convincing. Thank you much. Kel: > You're taking momentary unveiling of the cloud to mean destruction of the cloud. Ordinary people have to accumulate these moments and gain momentum toward destruction. Without this mechanism 3rd and 4th noble truths wouldn't exist. You're defining panna as the one which can cause the final destruction of the veil which is certainly one of the functions but it's not the only one. The definition of panna cetasika in Abhidhamma just isn't so strict unless you want to call it lokuttara panna. You can look at the charts in the back of Dr. Mon's book if you want to see what cittas and cetasikas exist together. > T: I don't have Dr. Mon's book, neither do I have any Abhidhamma book on my shelf. But it seems that if I keep on discussing the Abhidhamma with you, Nina or Sukinder, soon I will need to buy a good one. Thanks. Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > > T: But your quote from Dr. Mon book seems to indicate that panna is > > beyond the ordinary people : > > > > > Kel : I think you're referring to this part in Dr Mon's book? > > > > > > Because it overcomes ignorance, it is called amoha (non- delusion or > > > wisdom). Because it can remove the veil of moha from clouding > > man's mental eyes and throws away the darkness cast by moha > > (avijja), it is called vijja (higher knowledge). 45162 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 9:06pm Subject: Keys go in the Bowl by the Door Sarah! foamflowers Sarah, I can't remember where I got this, maybe off of DSG? Or maybe off the net, darn it I didn't leave a citation like I usually do. Golly gosh, I guess sometimes I do forget to put the keys in the bowl when I get him...lol... if I can keep an eye open for sati when it comes and goes my memory will become stronger? 1) The Visuddhimagga, XIV, 141 describes sati as follows: 'Its function is not to forget...its approximate cause is strong perception, or its approximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness.' 2) Perception is also subtly related to themes of Mindfulness Immersed in the Body [Kayagatasati]: "There is the case where a monk maintains a favorable theme of concentration -- the skeleton perception, the worm-eaten perception, the livid perception, the festering perception, the falling-apart perception, the bloated perception. This is called the exertion to maintain". [AN IV.14 § 50 in Part II: The Seven Sets, C. The Four Right Exertions, Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu.] With Metta,....Connie--praying you heal quickly! Lisa 45163 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 9:31pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, There's an online version though http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhaultsci.pdf - kel 45164 From: "Lisa" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 10:19pm Subject: Re: Keys go in the Bowl by the Door Sarah! foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > Sarah, > > I can't remember where I got this, maybe off of DSG? Or maybe off the > net, darn it I didn't leave a citation like I usually do. Golly gosh, > I guess sometimes I do forget to put the keys in the bowl when I get > him...lol... if I can keep an eye open for sati when it comes and > goes my memory will become stronger? > him=home...I shouldn't post so late at night writing powers are weak at best and when I'm sleepy they are nil. I found some more of my notes along with the passage from the Visuddhimagga, XIV, 141 describes sati as follows: 'Its function is not to forget...its approximate cause is strong perception, or its approximate cause is the foundations of mindfulness.' This was written when I was reflecting on the on going argument about anapana-sati and how difficult it is to do and how most people force it or can't do it because it is so subtle most moderns can't get it because of their life style. I found you can't force the mind to do anything, plus I get a headache and frustrated trying to force the mind, I like to word to lay the mind on object or softly bend it. I softly touch the breath (not concept) from the gross sensation around the nostrils to the most subtle sensations of breath as it brings life to the body through the lungs to the blood, which shares its burden of oxygen with the individual cells, which in turn burn brightly with this energy...Some more of my ponderings.... paritta citta (a very small part of the mind) sanna (perception) is a requisite for sati (mindfulness) and that good sanna (e.g. anicca-sanna, anatta-sanna, viraga-sanna) must be trained (sikkha). concentration and effort can you force wisdom? What does sitting and watching sensation come and go have to do with force? The breath comes and goes there is no control in this method. I mentioned control of breath in relation to other actions in daily life. In meditation the breath is left to it's own actions and I just watch the rise and fall of sensation and also watch my reactions to this rise and fall as it can be pleasant or not pleasant. The watching and not controlling just letting breath come and go naturally introduced me to the impermanent nature of the body. Also just watching the natural rise and fall of breath and sensation from the gross to the subtle trains the mind to stay focused no matter what happens in daily life. I want to be like Nina and Sarah someday, now there are some powerful writers! Well there is no 'I' but there are conditions and Nina and Sarah are very powerful and postive writing conditions--kusala--kusala kamma--kusala citta--no doer of these deeds, but still it is very skillful conditions! With Metta, Lisa 45165 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 185 - Enthusiasm/piiti (c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] The Visuddhimagga (IV, 100) explains in the section on the first jhåna the difference between pleasant feeling (sukha, translated here as “bliss”) and píti (translated here as “happiness”) which are both jhåna-factors. We read: * "And whenever the two are associated, happiness (píti) is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss (sukha) is the actual experience of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss; but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness (1). Happiness is included in the saòkhårakkhandha; bliss is included in the vedanåkkhandha. If a man exhausted in a desert saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; if he went into the wood’s shade and used the water, he would have bliss…" * The different words which are used to describe pleasant feeling and enthusiasm and also the above-quoted simile can help us to have theoretical knowledge of these two realities. If there is mindfulness of realities when they appear, a more precise understanding of their characteristics can be developed. However, we should not try to “catch” particular realities, it depends on conditions of which reality sati is aware. *** 1) This is in the case of the rúpåvacara cittas of the fourth stage of jhåna (of the five-fold system), which are accompanied by happy feeling, sukha, but not by píti. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti]to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45166 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 5, 2005 11:41pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna Definition buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Kel - > > You've made a great point, and it is convincing. Thank you much. > > Kel: > You're taking momentary unveiling of the cloud to mean > destruction of the cloud. Ordinary people have to accumulate these > moments and gain momentum toward destruction. Without this > mechanism 3rd and 4th noble truths wouldn't exist. You're defining > panna as the one which can cause the final destruction of the veil which > is certainly one of the functions but it's not the only one. The definition > of panna cetasika in Abhidhamma just isn't so strict unless you want to > call it lokuttara panna. You can look at the charts in the back of Dr. > Mon's book if you want to see what cittas and cetasikas exist together. > > > > T: I don't have Dr. Mon's book, neither do I have any Abhidhamma > book on my shelf. But it seems that if I keep on discussing the > Abhidhamma with you, Nina or Sukinder, soon I will need to buy a > good one. > > > Thanks. > > > Tep > > ====== Hi Tep and Kel, I find your dialogue about panna (wisdom) quite interesting. I don't claim to understand everything you both are talking about because it is an Abhidhamma-based discussion; however, I thought I might offer some material which I find informative about the definition of panna. The following are selected (by myself) excerpts from "The Debate of King Milinda", the debate between a Greek King (Milinda) and an Arahant Bhikkhu (Nagasena). It was a dialogue which occurred 500 years after the parinibbina of the Buddha. Nagasena was well versed in the Vinaya, Suttana, and Abhidhamma (an earlier version) before he achieved nibbana: Panna as "Remover" of Defilements: The king said: "Is it through wise attention that people become exempt from further rebirth?" "Yes, that is due to wise attention, and also to wisdom, and the other wholesome dharmas." "But is not wise attention the same as wisdom?" "No, Your Majesty! Attention is one thing, and wisdom another. Sheep and goats, oxen and buffaloes, camels and asses have attention, but wisdom they have not." "Well put, Venerable Nagasena!" The king asked: "What is the mark of attention, and what is the mark of wisdom?" "Consideration is the mark of attention, cutting off that of wisdom." "How is that? Give me a simile!" "You know barley-reapers, I suppose?" "Yes, I do." "How then do they reap the barley?" "With the left hand they seize a bunch of barley, in the right hand they hold a sickle, and they cut off the barley with that sickle." "Just so, Your Majesty, the yogin seizes his mental processes with his attention, and by his wisdom he cuts off the defilements." Panna as "Illumination": The king then asked: "Then, what is the mark of wisdom?" "Cutting off is, as I said before, one mark of wisdom. In addition, it illuminates." "And how does wisdom illuminate?" "When wisdom arises, it dispels the darkness of ignorance, generates the illumination of knowledge, sheds the light of cognition, and makes the holy truths stand out clearly. Thereafter the yogin, with his correct wisdom, can see impermanence, ill, and not self." "Give me a comparison!" "It is like a lamp which a man would take into a dark house. It would dispel the darkness, would illuminate, shed light, and make the forms in the house stand out clearly." Panna as "Temporary": The king said: 'He who has knowledge, Nâgasena, has he also wisdom?' 'Yes, great king.' 'What; are they both the same?' 'Yes.' 'Then would he, with his knowledge--which, you say, is the same as wisdom--be still in bewilderment or not?' 'In regard to some things, yes; in regard to others, no.' 'What would he be in bewilderment about?' 'He would still be in bewilderment as to those parts of learning he had not learnt, as to those countries he had not seen, and as to those names or terms he had not heard.' 'And wherein would he not be in bewilderment?' 'As regards that which has been accomplished by insight--(the perception, that is,) of the impermanence of all beings, of the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the non-existence of any soul' 'Then what would have become of his delusions on those points.' 'When knowledge has once arisen, that moment delusion has died away.' 'Give me an illustration.' 'It is like the lamp, which when a man has brought into a darkened room, then the darkness would vanish away, and light would appear.' 'And what, Nâgasena, on the other hand, has then become of his wisdom?' 'When the wisdom has affected that which it has to do, then the wisdom ceases to go on. But that which has been acquired by means of it remains--the knowledge of the impermanence of every being, of the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the absence of any soul.' 'Give me an illustration, reverend Sir, of what you have last said.' 'It is as when a man wants, during the night, to send a letter, and after having his clerk called, has a lamp lit, and gets the letter written. Then, when that has been done, he extinguishes the lamp. But though the lamp had been put out the writing would still be there.' Metta, James 45167 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 0:59am Subject: Re: Letter from B.Bodhi - SN 35:24 Abandonment & Ayatanas sarahprocter... All, I just sent the following letter to Bhikkhu Bodhi in reply to his letter: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44485 Any comments welcome, of course. ***** Dear Ven Bodhi, I have considered your comments on the ayatanas carefully and I'm very grateful to you for sharing them. It's a difficult area. I hope you don't mind if I make a few further tentative comments in response. 1. I have just re-read your introduction to the Sa.laayatanavagga in your SN translation as it's relevant to our discussion and I think it's excellent. Not surprisingly, I agree with almost all the comments. I say not surprisingly, because I believe you have accurately and clearly conveyed `the Theravada exegetical tradition' here*. 2. The only comment in this part of the introduction I would question at all is the one about dhamma in this context referring to `nonsensuous objects of consciousness apprehended by introspection, imagination, and reflection.' Certainly, I think it's clear in the Sabba sutta that dhamma refers to dhammayatana, part of the `all' (aayatanasabba) to be known, as the commentary makes clear . As you've said earlier in the introduction, this refers to cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana only. Without the coming together or meeting of the ayatanas, no dhammas could arise and no dhammas could be understood. Like with the knowing of the khandhas, concepts are not included. Many suttas in the khandha vagga make it clear, I believe, that nothing *exists* or can be known apart from the khandhas. I think you would agree with this. 3. With regard to your recent letter, I fully agree with you that the teachings are not concerned with theory and that the suttas are "concerned primarily with *the training of a monk* intent on winning liberation" and should be understood as such. As you say, the `first five external sense bases signify the objects of their respective classes of consciousness'. You then, in your letter, go on to suggest that `dhammayatana, as conceived in Nikaaya Buddhism, can only signify the objects of manovinnana....'. However, I don't believe this follows at all. (Also, where would it leave the cetasikas in terms of ayatanas?) The ayatanas are pointing to the `meeting of various dhammas. Without eye-base, seeing consciousness, visible object, contact and other mental factors, there could be no `coming together' or meeting- place of ayatanas. When it comes to the `meeting' in the mind-door process, there is the meeting of the manayatana (the citta) and the dhammayatana (cetasikas) and sometimes the subtle rupas or nibbana, also dhammayatana, if experienced. So the meaning of ayatanas is to show how dhammas can only arise now because of such a `birth-place' or meeting, not to indicate what is experienced, although in the sense- doors, the object that is experienced is also an ayatana. 4. You point out passages in Salaayatana-sa.myutta and elsewhere which state `Having seen a form with the eye....having cognized a dhamma with mano.....' where dhamma clearly refers to the *object* of manovinnana. In this case, dhamma would be referring to dhammarammana which includes all objects of experience, I believe. As you indicate in so many translations, dhamma can have different meanings in different contexts and I certainly don't agree that to differentiate between dhammayatana and `the objects of manovinnana' is to `move in a direction different from, perhaps even contrary to that of Nikaya Buddhism'. There is a clear distinction between dhammas which arise and can be known directly and all objects experienced, which include those mentally construed and imagined. The entire teachings, as I understand, are concerned with satipatthana and the understanding of the `All' and I don't see any discrepancy here between the Nikayas, Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries in this regard, though there are bound to be many aspects that we cannot fully comprehend, I believe. I respect that you see this matter differently. 5a. With regard to the Pahana sutta (SN 35:24),(`Abandonment 1') and its commentary, I understand the `Abandonment' refers to the abandoning of kilesa (defilements) on account of the ayatanas (or concepts about them). In the following sutta (Abandonment 2) it is stressed that it is abandoning all through direct knowledge and full understanding (sabba.m abhi~n~na pari~n~naa pahaanaaya), a reference to the third parinna when the defilements are eradicated by the path. Attachments and other kilesa not only arise with the paramattha dhammas as objects, eg seeing, visible object and so on, but also with concepts about these as objects. However, all that can ever be directly known are the `actualities' or `realities' themselves, e.g seeing, visible object, attachment, thinking (the citta or cetasika) etc. 5b.Usually we attach a lot of importance to the feelings which arise on account of the coming together of the various ayatanas. Hence, by way of clarification, I read the comy as stressing the need for the understanding and abandoning of the kilesa on account of the various feelings arising with the different cittas in the process after seeing etc. 5c.Without the dvara (door)of eye-base and so on, there could be no `coming together' of seeing and visible object etc. In the case of the mind door cittas, the dvara is the bhavanga citta preceding the process. Hence the reference to mano (here bhavanga citta) as I understand. Without the preceding bhavanga citta, no coming together of manayatana and dhammayatana in the mind-door process (i.e. cittas and cetasikas, if we exclude subtle rupas for now). Understanding about the dvaras, helps to understand the ayatanas as elements, I think. 5d.Mind consciousness, mano-vinnana refers here to the javana cittas (according to the commentary) and the feelings refer to those accompanying these javana cittas in the mind-door process. So here it is the kilesa on account of any of these feelings, along with the cittas, cetasikas and other objects which should be abandoned. I'm not sure whether dhamma(translated by you as mental phenomena refers here to dhammayatana (as in the previous sutta, but excluding nibbana) or to all objects of consciousness. In any case, as we both agree the comment in the note suggesting that the objects of mind consciousness (dhammaaramma.na) are included in dhammayatana is not correct. Dhammayatana, according to the `Theravada exegetical tradition' does not refer to objects of mind consciousness. I apologise for the length and any repetition in this letter and also for using simplified Pali spelling. I also appreciate that you are too busy to comment further. With respect, Sarah *As you rightly say, it (the Theravada tradition) `understands the six pairs of bases as a complete scheme of classification capable of accommodating all the factors of existence mentioned in the Nikayas.' As you also say, they `offer an alternative to the five aggregates as a scheme of phenomenological classification.' Later, `As with the aggregates, so with the sense bases, concern with their classification and interactions is governed not by an interest in theoretical completeness but by the practical exigencies of the Buddha's path aimed at liberation from suffering.' ================================= 45168 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:36am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Charles P (Hasituppada), --- hasituppada wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thankyou for your message. You remember Sarah, you asked me not to > leave but be arround. Therefore I am there, but hope I am not > disturbing the prevailing quiet studious atmosphere from my > occasional interruptions. I know you all have patience. ... S: Thank you very much. Quite the opposite -- rather than disturbing us, you encourage us with your reflections! We're not here to be quiet:-). .... > I do not think that I mentioned any where about my disagreement with > the Buddhist Commentaries or not having any confidence in them. I > have deep respect for the word of the Buddha- Dhamma and Sangha. ... S: The reason I mentioned it is that the Pali commentaries clearly indicate that the Abhidhamma was included at the First Council under the Khuddakanikaya. I wrote a series of posts with regard to this based on the commentary to the Vinaya introduction, the Bahiranidana. See 'Vinaya - intro' in U.P. We find similar accounts in the Atthasalini (comy to the Dhammasangani), the Mahavamsa and other sutta commentaries, such as the commentary to the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta. They all refer to 3 Pitakas. For example, at the end of the account of the First Council in the Bahiranidana, it explains how the 84,000 units of dhamma are comprised and these include the Abhidhamma units. Then: "Thus, this word of the Buddha which is uniform in sentiment taken as a whole (without division), and consists of such divisions as the Dhamma and the Vinaya in the divisions such as those into two and so forth, has been laid down as, 'this is the Dhamma and this is the Vinaya, these are the first, intermediate, and final sayings of the Buddha, these are the Vinaya, Sutta, and Abhidhamma Pitakas, these are the Nikayas from Diigha to Khuddaka, these are the nine Angas commencing with Sutta and these are the eighty-four thousand Units of the Dhamma,' was rehearsed together by the assembly of self-controlled monks with Mahakassapa as their leader verily observing this distinction." At the conclusion of the rehearsal, the earth trembled and quaked.... There's so much excellent detail and it's all consistent with what we read in suttas too, such as the 84,000 units, the ninefold division etc. "The whole of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, suttas which contain no stanzas and any other (sayings from the) word of the Buddha not included in the other eight Angas should be known as Veyyakarana (Expositions)." ... >I > am a Buddhist of the Theravada tradition , but I have great respect > for the followers of the Buddha's Dhamma in all other traditions as > well. When it comes to meditation , what ever different methods are > used the final stages of Meditation, concentration , and panna is > the same. > The Mahayana tradition which has a Bodhisatva concept, and with its > Bodhisatta Vow- which is a great expression of Buddhist Karuna, is > different but their meditation does not differ from other traditions. > > My understanding is that there is no where in the Buddhist Countries > a tradition of Meditation based on the Abhidhamma. .... S: Can we say that Meditation is a translation of bhavana and that the Abhidhamma is only concerned with bhavana? Can there be meditation or bhavana now? ..... >I started > reading Abhidhamma quite recently and find that most of what I > wanted to read in Abhidhamma is in the Sutta Pitaka , but the > Abhidhamma gives the details of some of the terms found in the > Suttas which are undoubtedly important. ... S: I agree with this. .... > > Before you misinterpret, I should say that we of Sri Lanka have a > great respect to Abhidhamma, and we believe the Sutta discourses the > Buddha made were for his followers in this world. .... S: I know. That's why I was surprised by your comments about the Councils and origins of the Abhidhamma which are clearly in conflict with the ancient commentaries so carefully preserved in your great country. .... > > I am a Meditator and I have the Buddha's Suttas from > Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta to Maha Satipattana to guide me along in > my meditation. However, I admit, I have not read many Suttas. But > even without them when one meditates under the guidance of a > teacher, all instructions( kamatahan) are provided to understand > the dhamma, and a meditator experiences the Dhamma in meditation. .... S: I understand this. I can only say that for myself, the further considering and questioning of what I read in various parts of the Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries, helps a lot. .... > > I believe that Samatha Bhavana along with the four Jhana absorptions > are an essential pre-requisite for Vipassana meditation. I believe > in sitting meditation and take Anapanasati as my object of > meditation. I also believe in the Iriyapata meditation to support > sitting meditation. For me the" reality of the instance" is Sati. > Sati or being Mindful is some thing that can be practiced and > developed, which helps in the development of concentration……..etc. ... S: Thank you for elaborating further. Again the commentaries make it very clear, I think, that jhana absorptions are not 'an essential pre-requisite' for vipassana meditation, but I understand that many people don't agree. In any case, I'll look forward to your futher comments on any of the threads and to Tep's anapanasati corner discussions. Please continue to comment, question, disagree and 'disturb' any quiet:-). Thanks again, Charles. Metta, Sarah p.s you mentioned before that we could call you Charles P here, but pls let me know if this has changed:-). =================================== 45169 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Nina, Thank you very much, Nina, for taking your valuable time to reply to my post. As you said, the history could be left alone as the Dhamma is more important, I will leave history at that. I delayed my reply on seeing your post about the problems of your eyesight. I can understand as I suffer from a Glaucoma. Hope you are taking treatment, and wish you,that you soon be well. Please take care. Abhidhamma is undoubtedly a very intellectually stimulating teaching for research on the various moments of citta and their interplay, to understand the no-self nature of a being, which is fundamental to the teachings of the Buddha. With all my respect to you,Nina, my problem stems when it is said that Abhidhamma is the book to be lived and practiced. There are these moments of Lobha, Dosa, Moha, and their opposites and Kusala, akusala cittas, arising and falling away. They are very minutely described in the Abhidhamma teaching, but all that is complementary to Suttas. Suttas also explain, in a more "easy to follow" way all these arising and falling away citta in their "essential" details. Abhidhamma teaches the conditions for the arising of citta. And also the underlying motives for action. Knowledge of this will help us to keep in check our action by body, word and thought, and that is "being mindful". But the Sutta too makes it possible to understand these very same underlying motives for action, and meditation according to Sutta makes one experience the dhamma in a more subtle way, and at a deeper level. A study of the four noble truths and the eight fold path in its detail and practicing it at the three stages of Sila, Samadhi, Panna, provides a meditator necessary elements of dhamma for his practice. Venerable Bikkhu Bodhi's The Noble Eight Fold Path, describes how the moral discipline, the pattern of human behavior in relation to his social environment (silakkhandha), coulbe seen as a preparation for the higher practice for wisdom( paññakkhandha). Sīla, Samādhi,and Pañña, are a gradual preparation for freedom from Samsara and attaining Nibbana. Meditating according to the instructions in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, a meditator, following the precepts, practicing a disciplined simple life style of a yogi, is able to reduce the arising of waves of citta, and thereby the defilements, and silently sit for long hours of meditation to further purify the mind through absorptions. Then the insight meditation may gradually eliminate ignorance (avijja) and through arising of panna take the "mind" away from the bonds of suffering. This is a much quicker way of achieving the results set out in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta, than seeing the "reality of the instance". Those instances of reality, a meditator knows as bare attention- when seeing, only the seeing, when hearing only the hearing, when eating,only the eating etc. That is to say Dear Nina,that to an ordinary earth bound follower of the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha has given in the language of the ordinary "earth bound follower" simple instructions that will lead him to the final goal of Nibbana. May you be well and Happy, With metta, Hasituppada 45170 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 2:33am Subject: Musings12 – More on Prescribing and Strategies sarahprocter... (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) ========== Dear Howard, Nina, Jon, KenH (Vince) & All, As we’ve discussed here many times, sometimes we read suttas which seem to be prescribing courses of particular action or behaviour such as in ‘Prescribed by the Wise, AN111,45 (Nyanaponika & Bodhi transl): *** “These three things, O monks, are prescribed by the wise, prescribed by superior people. What three? Giving is prescribed, the going forth into homelessness is prescribed, and service to one’s parents is prescribed....” *** However, again it was stressed how these suttas describe the behaviour of the ariyans. They are not telling us what we should do. Instead they indicate how wise one must be to observe the prescribed actions. In other words, they are descriptions of the ‘wise one’ and how the wise one behaves and what he recommends: *** “The wise prescribe giving, Harmlessness, self-control and taming, Service to one’s dear parents And to those who live the holy life. These are the kinds of deeds To which the wise person resorts. The noble one, possessed of vision, Passes to an auspicious world.” *** We discussed how when there isn’t any development of satipatthana now, we keep thinking about what actions to take, how to cope or what to do in various situations. However, the thinking is always about the future or past. At the same time, the development of understanding is being postponed by thinking and yet more thinking at these times. A friend also raised other examples of suttas which seem to be suggesting strategies to follow at times of strong akusala (unwholesome states), such as those included in the Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta, MN20 which we've discussed here. Just to repeat from the end of the sutta, we read (Nanamoli, Bodhi transl): *** “When he examines the danger in those thoughts [i.e. ‘evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them.....When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts....When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him....and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.” *** It was stressed that we can listen to or read about the advantages of all kinds of kusala with panna(right understanding) and this is ‘suta mayaa pa~n~naa'. There can be further considering and wise reflection with panna and this is ‘cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa’. Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst describing and giving examples such as these. However,the panna knows that in fact, ‘we’ do whatever conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand whatever the dhamma (reality) is at any given time so that insight can develop. This is ‘bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa’ – the real development of satipatthana. In other words, satipatthana follows the conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana understands and is aware of the present nama or rupa appearing, not making it happen by one’s will. What happens is done by our accumulated tendencies for good and bad. We don’t need to think of particular words or terms in this regard, because when there is awareness, just that characteristic of reality appears, nothing else. Panna has to develop with detachment, not with an idea of self that is following strategies or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It has to also develop with patience to know what isn’t known, not with attachment to having awareness arise often. We’ve accumulated ignorance for aeons, so we shouldn’t expect any quick development now. The most important thing is that it should be the right path at this moment. Metta, Sarah ======= 45171 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 3:44am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, Thank you for your always warm welcome messages. _____________________________________________________________________ S: Thank you very much. Quite the opposite -- rather than disturbing us,you encourage us with your reflections! We're not here to be quietS: The reason I mentioned it is that the Pali commentaries clearly indicate that the Abhidhamma was included at the First Council under the Khuddakanikaya…………….. ___________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: I thought Kuddhakanikaya was a later addition to Tipitaka. I have read in many place and even in the Internet that only the Suttapitaka and the Vinayapitaka were recited at the Council by the Venerbla Ananda and Venerable Upali. Who read the Abhidhamma Pitaka at the first Council ? However, I do not wish to have polmics with you on this question. If you say so I will accept it on the face value. ____________________________________________________________________ S: Can we say that Meditation is a translation of bhavana and that the Abhidhamma is only concerned with bhavana? Can there be meditation or bhavana now? _________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: Meditation is I think the English translation of the word Bhavana. "Bhavana" is defined as the cultivation of the mind (mental cultivation, if you like). Abhidhamma is concerned with the Paramatta Dhamma, explaining the beings( satta) as a conditioned reality, a pancakkhandha. In reality there is no identifiable being. Bhavana, is what the Buddha taught, and instructed through the Mahasatipattana Sutta for the human beings to practice to allow the purification of mind to attain Nibbana. It could be done now as it was done before, and could be done in the future. __________________________________________________________________ S: I understand this. I can only say that for myself, the further considering and questioning of what I read in various parts of the Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma and commentaries, helps a lot. _____________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: An advice given to a meditator or if you like a Yogi, at the outset is to stop reading during or in between meditation sessions. This is to avoid confusion and mental disturbance. There are periods set aside for reading or discussion of Dhamma. _______________________________________________________________ S: Thank you for elaborating further. Again the commentaries make it very clear, I think, that jhana absorptions are not 'an essential pre-requisite' for vipassana meditation, but I understand that many people don't agree. In any case, I'll look forward to your futher comments on any of the threads and to Tep's anapanasati corner discussions. Please continue to comment, question, disagree and 'disturb' any quiet:-). _____________________________________________________________ Hasituppada says: There is no where in the Sutta where the Buddha spoke about a dry Vipassana. The word "Bhavana" is an all inclusive term that takes in both Samatha and Vipassana. I think that mind without Samatha is not purified enough to have insight or penetrate into the anicca dukkha anatma and open it self to panna. _____________________________________________________________________ p.s you mentioned before that we could call you Charles P here, but pls let me know if this has changed:-). ____________________________________________________________________ Hasituppada Says: What is in a name after all, but this is a moment of Lobha, I love to be called Hasituppada, what more could you wish to be, more than a smile of an Arahat !!! Thank you dear Sarah, for this occasion for a Dhamma discussion with some one intelligent,serene and kind like you. With metta, Hasituppada. 45172 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 4:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) gazita2002 Hello Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Azita, .....snip.... > > BTW. I have a list of the naanas. the first one being > > namarupapariccedanana. A list is all I have and I would like to know > > where I can read more on these nanas, any suggestions please, Sarah, > > would be greatly appreciated. > .... > S: Suggestions: > > a) most detailed by far is the Visuddhimagga, ch XV111 on, I believe. Do > you have a copy of Vism? ...... Azita: I do have a copy, given by Chittapala. > b) briefer details in CMA, p349 onwards. The purification of view refers > here to the first stage of nama-rupa pariccheda nana. ........ > c) best detailed summary I can think of is A.Sujin's in 'Survey of > Paramattha Dhammas' > http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf > on-line p.195 onwards(just key in the page no at the bottom of the pdf) > If you have a pink hard copy that Betty gave some of us, it's p.194 > onwards. Azita: I have a copy of this too. > d) Some helpful posts in U.P. under 'Stages of Insight 1', but I just took > a look and see there are some posts there in error. You might find #22710 > of Nina's helpful because I think you also asked about the parinnas and instead it was left that you'd do a little research first if I > recall:-). Azita: yes, I was expecting a quick answer, and realised later that there is no quick answer to any of the dhamma really. It has to happen stage by stage, as the understanding grows little by little. > And yes, K.Sujin usually brings any questions about stages of insight back > to the present moment and the present concerns and motives...Is there any > understanding of seeing now? Of visible object now? And so on... > > Hope this helps, > > Metta, > > Sarah Azita: yes, this is plenty of info. thank you patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 45173 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 0:55am Subject: Forest Bliss ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Ease of Serene Calm : A radiant deity once asked the Buddha: Those who dwell deep in the forest, Peacefully living the Noble life, Eating but a single meal a day, Why is their appearance so serene ? Buddha responded: They do not sorrow over the past, Nor do they hanker for the future, They live by, just with what is present, Therefore is their appearance so serene ! By urging towards the unreal future, By longing back into the lost past, Fools verily dry up and wither away, Like a green creeper all cut down... _______________________________________ Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 5 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45174 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 – More on Prescribing and Strategi es upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - With much respect, I must tell you that I am 95% in disagreement with you on the following. Some comments follow in context below. In a message dated 5/6/05 5:34:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) ========== Dear Howard, Nina, Jon, KenH (Vince) & All, As we’ve discussed here many times, sometimes we read suttas which seem to be prescribing courses of particular action or behaviour such as in ‘Prescribed by the Wise, AN111,45 (Nyanaponika & Bodhi transl): *** “These three things, O monks, are prescribed by the wise, prescribed by superior people. What three? Giving is prescribed, the going forth into homelessness is prescribed, and service to one’s parents is prescribed....â€? *** However, again it was stressed how these suttas describe the behaviour of the ariyans. They are not telling us what we should do. Instead they indicate how wise one must be to observe the prescribed actions. In other words, they are descriptions of the ‘wise one’ and how the wise one behaves and what he recommends: ---------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. The meaning is plain, and there is not the slightest suggestion of what you get out of this. ---------------------------------- *** “The wise prescribe giving, Harmlessness, self-control and taming, Service to one’s dear parents And to those who live the holy life. These are the kinds of deeds To which the wise person resorts. The noble one, possessed of vision, Passes to an auspicious world.â€? *** We discussed how when there isn’t any development of satipatthana now, we keep thinking about what actions to take, how to cope or what to do in various situations. However, the thinking is always about the future or past. At the same time, the development of understanding is being postponed by thinking and yet more thinking at these times. -------------------------------- Howard: I don't get what you are pointing out here. -------------------------------- A friend also raised other examples of suttas which seem to be suggesting strategies to follow at times of strong akusala (unwholesome states), such as those included in the Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta, MN20 which we've discussed here. Just to repeat from the end of the sutta, we read (Nanamoli, Bodhi transl): *** “When he examines the danger in those thoughts [i.e. ‘evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them.....When he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts....When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him....and his mind becomes steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated. This bhikkhu is then called a master of the courses of thought. He will think whatever thought he wishes to think and he will not think any thought that he does not wish to think. He has severed craving, flung off the fetters, and with the complete penetration of conceit he has made an end of suffering.â€? *** ----------------------------------- Howard: What is your point here, Sarah? ----------------------------------- It was stressed that we can listen to or read about the advantages of all kinds of kusala with panna(right understanding) and this is ‘suta mayaa pa~n~naa'. There can be further considering and wise reflection with panna and this is ‘cintaa mayaa pa~n~naa’. Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst describing and giving examples such as these. However,the panna knows that in fact, ‘we’ do whatever conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand whatever the dhamma (reality) is at any given time so that insight can develop. This is ‘bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa’ – the real development of satipatthana. In other words, satipatthana follows the conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana understands and is aware of the present nama or rupa appearing, not making it happen by one’s will. What happens is done by our accumulated tendencies for good and bad. We don’t need to think of particular words or terms in this regard, because when there is awareness, just that characteristic of reality appears, nothing else. ---------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha repeatedly gave instructions for practice, and he urged their carrying out. Thius is so eminently clear that it boggles my mind how some folks strain to see the matter otherwise. ---------------------------------- Panna has to develop with detachment, not with an idea of self that is following strategies or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It has to also develop with patience to know what isn’t known, not with attachment to having awareness arise often. --------------------------------- Howard: All development has to start from where we are, and not from where we hope to be. One who is without idea of self has already made considerable progress. The process doesn't begin at that stage, for that stage has to first be attained. We start, in fact, in the midst of ignorance, and we must engage in the practice taught by the Buddha to get oneself off ground zero. -------------------------------------- We’ve accumulated ignorance for aeons, so we shouldn’t expect any quick development now. --------------------------------------- Howard: True. And without practice we can expect *no* development, not even slow. -------------------------------------- The most important thing is that it should be the right path at this moment. -------------------------------------- Howard: To be the *right* path, it must be *some* path. With no path, one just does what feels good and remains enmeshed in craving and ignorance forever. -------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45176 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 – More on Prescribing and Strategi es sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > With much respect, I must tell you that I am 95% in disagreement > with you > on the following. .... S: At least there's the 5% and we both have computers operating right now:-). Actually, I'm grateful for your quick response and may say more, but it won't be until after the weekend now. Hope others commnet/discuss further in the meantime. Metta, Sarah p.s I think we got our computer probs fixed yesterday afternoon after a long of hassle(some configuration things)-- thx for your concern. I really hope you get yours sorted out too, Howard. Glad you had a good trip too. ============== 45177 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:accumulations. nilovg Dear Tep, Don't worry, it is a matter of the right spectacles, just the optician who changed them. I take care of control etc. don't worry. It is just old age. Perhaps a few others also get tired eyes from many long Emails, I do not know. No, I do not stop, only this coming week we are off on vacation. When back, do continue with accumulations. When you review accumulations in your own words I can see whether something should be added. Thank you for the offer (off line) to frwd to me texts. Anumodana, Nina. op 05-05-2005 22:49 schreef Tep Sastri op tepsastri@...: >> All the time I am aware of your weaken eyes and the pains that are > resulted from readings long emails. I remember one of your recent > emails saying that you are going to stop answering emails soon. 45178 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 More on Prescribing and Strategies buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and Howard (Attn: Sukinder, Nina and Ken H) - I read through the message #45170 (Musings12 - More on Prescribing and Strategies) with great interest because all "the points" that have been repeated over and over again by Nina, Sarah and Sukinder in all the DSG posts are faithfully recited by Sarah here. >Sarah: Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst >describing and giving examples such as these. >However,the panna knows that in fact, we do whatever >conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, > is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand >whatever the dhamma(reality) is at any given time so that >insight can develop. This is bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa >" the real development of satipatthana. In other words, > satipatthana follows the conditioned dhammas. Satipatthana >understands and is aware of the present nama or rupa >appearing, not making it happen by one will. What happens >is done by our accumulated tendencies for good and bad. >We don't need to think of particular words or terms in this regard, >because when there is awareness, just that characteristic of >reality appears, nothing else. Panna has to develop with >detachment, not with an idea of self that is following strategies > or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It has to also >develop with patience to know what isn't known, not with >attachment to having awareness arise often. >Howard: To be the *right* path, it must be *some* path. >With no path, one just does what feels good and remains >enmeshed in craving and ignorance forever. T: Sarah, I agree with every nice thing you have mentioned concerning Satipatthana and understanding with sampajanna. The Satipatthana Sutta is a major discourse, it was not meant to be for beginners to follow and ignore everything else of the Teachings. It is not the only discourse the Buddha taught. So your "points" are only a part of what the Buddha taught. Maybe they are too advanced. Frankly, how often can you be "aware of the present nama or rupa appearing" in the present moment? How well does your Satipatthana scheme work when the mind is attacked by hindrances? What do you do in order to clear your mind from hindrances? Does the Satipatthana in the present moment work when you have wandering mind, that is not steadied internally and quieted? Even Nina has acknowledged several times that she is a beginner, a worldling too, like the rest of us. Probably, a much more advanced worldling! Is it possible that these "points" you have made are ideal, suitable for advanced practitioners only? And, is it possible that there are other practical aspects of the Teachings that have been overlooked, or rejected by Nina, Sarah and Sukinder? I believe the answers are "yes" for both questions. Thank you, Howard, for explaining clearly (in message # 45174) that there are other aspects of the Buddha's Teachings that were designed for practitioners to become ariyans -- to be followed methodically. don't be confused about "self" directing the effort and "lobha" or tanha being involved, you've gotta do what you've gotta do. These other practical aspects of the Teachings are very effective when the "Satipatthana in the present moment" fails to work because the mental defilements are numerous and strong. Forget about "self" and "lobha" for a moment, your hair and dress are on fire now! Apparently, Sarah is having trouble believing the major suttas that give "instructions" to the monks for the practice that leads to abandonment (pahana) of mental defilements, e.g. MN 20 (Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta) <"When he examines the danger in those thoughts [i.e. `evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and does not give attention to them.....when he gives attention to stilling the thought-formation of those thoughts....When, with his teeth clenched and his tongue pressed against the roof of his mouth, he beats down, constrains, and crushes mind with mind, any such evil unwholesome thoughts are abandoned in him.> Indeed there are several other suttas that give instructions for dealing with kilesas, to abandon them, and to practice such that the mind is "steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and concentrated". How can panna work effectively otherwise? Of course, once the mind is calm because of viveka (free from sensuous things, akusala vitakka, and karmically unwholesome things) then the Stipatthana in the present moment will have the strong support needed for it to work well. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, > > > Actually, I'm grateful for your quick response and may say more, but it > won't be until after the weekend now. > > Hope others commnet/discuss further in the meantime. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I think we got our computer probs fixed yesterday afternoon after a > long of hassle(some configuration things)-- thx for your concern. I really > hope you get yours sorted out too, Howard. Glad you had a good trip too. > ============== 45179 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:38am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I did in my > Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied to > nibbaana, this is a special case. > Paññatti do not have these four. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks. Now I am clear. Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, I think. Nibbana is a special case. But I would like to ask you. Does pannatti not have a function? With respect, Htoo Naing 45180 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:41am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause. again. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo, If this is easier for you, you could get from the archives all the Visuddhimagga Ch XIV and Tiika studies, beginning with rupakkhandha, and all these four items are dealt with. Then cittas, and now we are going to start with akusala cetasikas. We are all the time dealing with 1. characteristic 2. function 3. manifestation 4. proximate cause Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thank you very much. With respect, Htoo Naing 45181 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:43am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing Rob K wrote: Dear Htoo, I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? Robertk -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Rob K, I do have a very special reason for asking this question. The Buddha just said 'when bhikkhu breathes in long, he knows he breathes in long'. May I ask another time? Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air' 'note nose, mouth, lip' etc in mahaasatipatthaana sutta? With respect, Htoo Naing 45182 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread (345) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. The first 2 sets have been discussed in recent posts. There is 3rd set of 4-kamma. They are 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma 4. ahosi kamma The 2nd kamma in this 3rd set of 4-kamma is called upapajja-vedaniiya kamma. This kamma gives rise to its effect in the immediate next life or the second life when the current life is assumed as the 1st life. This kamma derives from 7th javana citta when kamma are being committed. The third kamma in this set is aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma. Aparaa means 'further away' or 'second'. This kamma gives rise to its effect or results in the 2nd next life or 3rd life if the current life is assumed as the 1st life. This kamma derives from the middle 5 javana cittas out of 7 total successive javana cittas. This kamma is so strong that its effects are there starts from the 2nd next life or 3rd life till cuti citta of arahats. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45183 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (346) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. The first 2 sets have been discussed in recent posts. There is 3rd set of 4-kamma. They are 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma 4. ahosi kamma Kamma is always there behind us. Kamma is our shade. We cannot see kamma. But we can see the results that kamma gives. Kamma is our shade. Kamma is our properties. Kamma is our wealth. The first 3 kamma in this 3rd set of 4-kamma have been discussed in the previous posts. Among them aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma is so strong that their potentials never go anywhere and they always always follow as like our shade. This happens. Because we did. Is it fair? It is. But we cannot see how many lives that we lived in our past and how many kamma were done when we were in those respective life. And actualy sense, we do not need to worry these past kamma. Our duty is to clean kamma as clean as possible till kamma is completely clean. When this happens, or when beings become arahats, there will not be any more kamma that will give rise to new rebirth. But old kamma do not go away. Old kamma follow us like money-lenders. As long as we are living in the samsara or rounds of birth-rebirth they will be following. Even when beings become arahats and become completely pure, kamma will be following them as long as they are there in existence. This is true down to cuti citta or arahats. Once cuti citta arises, there is no way to follow for these kamma and then all these kamma become ahosi kamma or fruitless kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45184 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:53am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo - In your reply to Nina you wrote Htoo: Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, I think. >Nibbana is a special case. > T: They say the 32 body parts and breaths are also pannatti. But aren't they real? If they are not, then rupa is not real either? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I > did > in my > > Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied > to > > nibbaana, this is a special case. > > Paññatti do not have these four. > > Nina. > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Nina, > > Thanks. Now I am clear. Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any > of 4 features, I think. Nibbana is a special case. > > But I would like to ask you. > > Does pannatti not have a function? > > With respect, > > Htoo Naing 45185 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 9:33am Subject: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing Dear All, The Buddha said to his disciples bhikkhus at kammaasadhamma village in kuru country, which is close to Deli in India that '...gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.' This means that 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going 'in detail'. Here 'in detail' is very very important and crucial. Without inclusion of this, there always arise confusion. The confusion is that those people who are good at abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not satipatthana and so on. But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. Jaananti means 'to know'. Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45186 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 9:36am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo - > > In your reply to Nina you wrote > > Htoo: Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, I think. > >Nibbana is a special case. > > > > T: They say the 32 body parts and breaths are also pannatti. But aren't > they real? If they are not, then rupa is not real either? > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are not first-hand object. And never can they be. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45187 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 10:28am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo: I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your answer was as follows: Htoo: > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > not first-hand object. And never can they be. > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? Are any of then "first-hand" object? Why? Specifically, what about perception? Is perception real? Do you discover perception as perception? How? Respectfully and with kind regards, Tep Your Dhamma friend =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Dear Htoo - > > > > In your reply to Nina you wrote > > > > Htoo: Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any of 4 features, > I think. Nibbana is a special case. > > > > > > > T: They say the 32 body parts and breaths are also pannatti. But > aren't > > they real? If they are not, then rupa is not real either? > > 45188 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada buddhistmedi... Dear Ken H (and Hasituppada) - [A reply to KenH message # 45133] Hasituppada's reply to your earlier message that "caused a bit too much damage" is along the same line of thought with me. But there are a few issues remaining for which I would like to make a happy ending. KenH: More to the point, that way of concentrating has nothing to do with the absolute reality taught by the Buddha. While there is thinking about the human body in the act of walking etc., there is no awareness of rupa (or nama). T: In this message you mentioned "insight into conditioned dhammas" and said it was the "momentary arising of panna to take another conditioned nama or rupa as its object". Honestly speaking, have you ever had such experience without using a samatha meditation as described in the Kayagatasati Sutta? I have often had such "awareness of rupa and nama" while I do walking meditation slowly or breathing meditation. > Hasituppada's reply: "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. (Mahasatipatthana Sutta.) ------------------- KenH : Again, I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation, but have you noticed the wording, "There is the case where a monk remains focussed"? It is not, "Perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness": it is simply a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness. T: This issue is not a sidetrack one for me. So please allow me to say a few words here. Whether that is "a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness" or "perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness", the effect on me is the same. To me the sutta elaborates on the detailed activity of a prototype meditator (call him a "monk" or a "bhikkhu") that I can use as my model. I don't waste time worrying too much about the wordings and their interpretation the way you do, because that does not benefit me as a meditator. I am not a language expert. I am not a philosopher. It is not my concern whether this or that object of meditation is a concept (pannatti) or a reality (paramattha) as long as the Buddha recommended it; it must work for me too. I am not a debater either. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Hasituppada (and Tep), > > 45189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Charles P, (Hasituppada), Thank you for your kind letter and I understand your views. I agree that the suttas explain all, but personally, I could not understand the deep message without Abhidhamma and Commentaries. I understand that people have different opinions on this. The Abhidhamma helps me to understand the characteristic of what appears now: any phenomenon of our daily life, kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. Or just plain seeing and hearing. Understanding those is important because in their train defilements often follow, even very subtle lobha. I am so grateful to have more understanding of my defilements. Where would I be without the Abhidhamma. I cannot be without the suttas, the Buddha exhorts us in such a personal way with great compassion. The words of the Buddha make a deep impression, not to be forgetful of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. Time and again he speaks about the six doors, sometimes in a longer discourse, sometimes in a shorter one. Thus, ideal for us are the whole of the Tipitaka. Also Vinaya helps us laypeople, reminds us of our vices. I just have to close down my Email now for a week because of vacation. Nina. op 06-05-2005 10:49 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: > Thank you very much, Nina, for taking your valuable time to reply to > my post. As you said, the history could be left alone as the > Dhamma is more important, I will leave history at that. 45190 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause nilovg Dear Htoo, I am on the verge of closing Email. Of course paññatti has a function, it helps us to understand realities. But it is not classified with characteristic, function etc. since it is not a reality. Nina. op 06-05-2005 17:38 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > But I would like to ask you. > > Does pannatti not have a function? 45191 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 1:35pm Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo and all who are "good at the Abhidhamma" - Htoo : >The Buddha said to his disciples bhikkhus at kammaasadhamma village in kuru country, which is close to Deli in India that '...gacchanto > vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.' > > This means that 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going 'in detail'. > > Here 'in detail' is very very important and crucial. Without > inclusion of this, there always arise confusion. > T: How much knowing is considered "detailed"? Knowing going, and what else? What is the purpose of knowing the "going" in detail? Is it the same as being aware of the walking in the present moment? H: > The confusion is that those people who are good at > abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not > satipatthana and so on. > T: Supposed that they were right, then why did the Buddha include this 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going in detail' in Kayanupassana section of the Satipatthana Sutta ? Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > The confusion is that those people who are good at abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not satipatthana and so on. > > But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. > > Jaananti means 'to know'. > > Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45192 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 2:48pm Subject: James' Contribution [was Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna...] buddhistmedi... Hi James and Kel - In message # 45166, James wrote : J: I don't claim to understand everything you both are talking about because it is an Abhidhamma-based discussion; however, I thought I might offer some material which I find informative about the definition of panna. The following are selected (by myself) excerpts from "The Debate of King Milinda", the debate between a Greek King (Milinda) and an Arahant Bhikkhu (Nagasena). T: I must admit that my knowledge of the Abhidhamma is only at the lowest rung of the "sutamaya panna" level. Yet, there has been just little reading done so far. Thank you for the quotes about panna you have provided from the Milinda Panha - a great source of knowledge. . The following list of key points in the Milinda Panha will go to my notebook: Panna = wisdom = knowledge. -- Due to wise attention, wisdom and kusala dhammas, "people become exempt from further rebirth ". -- "The yogin seizes his mental processes with his attention, and by his wisdom he cuts off the defilements." -- "When wisdom arises, it dispels the darkness of ignorance, generates the illumination of knowledge, sheds the light of cognition, and makes the holy truths stand out clearly. Thereafter the yogin, with his correct wisdom, can see impermanence, ill, and not self." -- 'When knowledge has once arisen, that moment delusion has died away.' -- 'When the wisdom has affected that which it has to do, then the wisdom ceases to go on. But that which has been acquired by means of it remains--the knowledge of the impermanence of every being, of the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the absence of any soul.' The last item is most interesting. Maybe it has something to do with accumulations. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep and Kel, > > I find your dialogue about panna (wisdom) quite interesting. I don't > claim to understand everything you both are talking about because it > is an Abhidhamma-based discussion; however, I thought I might offer > some material which I find informative about the definition of panna. > The following are selected (by myself) excerpts from "The Debate of > King Milinda", the debate between a Greek King (Milinda) and an > Arahant Bhikkhu (Nagasena). It was a dialogue which occurred 500 > years after the parinibbina of the Buddha. Nagasena was well versed > in the Vinaya, Suttana, and Abhidhamma (an earlier version) before he > achieved nibbana: > 45193 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Does abhidhamma have anything to say about groups such as rupa kalapas or the mental body with respect to these four features? Are groups of realities (khandhas) considered to be real? Larry 45194 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities-Phil gazita2002 Hello Phil and other friends, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Azita, and all > > It is much harder to see Naomi as rupa and nama, and a little > > > easier to understand myself in those terms. ......... BTW, Azita, as I was tidying up I was listening to the India > talks. You were asking about the rupa of motion, for some tips about > how to recognize it. Of course, none were forthcoming! I think they > could have been. If someone has had a moment of direct understanding > of a rupa or nama, couldn't they tell us about it? "I was walking > down the street and a leaf landed on my nose and I had a direct > understanding of motion" or something like that. If they were a > trusted dhamma friend, that could condition awareness of such > moments when they arose, even if we weren't clinging to expecting > them. Is it verbotten or impossible to talk about one's moments of > direct understanding? Azita: In relation to my question about motion, I gained some understanding that there is little point of someone else telling me about their experience. For 'me' to know motion as a reality, it must be experienced by Sati and Panna and then there will be knowing. Anyway, why look for a reality which may be hard to know, when there are realities arising and falling all the time eg seeing - visible object. As A. Sujin suggests 'don't go away from this present moment'. I guess if motion doesn't appear then there can be no knowing it until it does appear. Hope that makes sense. Would that mean there was clinging to the > experience? If it helped condition a friend's moment of awareness, > wouldn't the clinging to the experience be worth it? Yes, there > would be mana, but there's always mana. Azita: I don't think it would help in the ultimate sense. > Is it impossible to identify moments of direct understanding so > explicitly? > > Well, that's an interesting question that just popped out. Azita: If Sati and Panna arise and are aware of those moments of direct understanding - which is also Panna - then there is a type of identifying, but not with a self. > > Also BTW and this *is* verbotten but may I say Azita that I think > you have a very lovely voice? Something beguiling about it, a kind > of good-humoured sheepishness. Azita:-) could have something to do with my father, all his brothers and his dad being sheep shearers and we ate large amounts of lamb and mutton when I was a child, and I called my mum 'maaaaa' :-) It is causing me lobha. Lovha? Could > I ask you to speak in a less pleasant way in future recorded talks, > like ....Sarah for example? Sarah, just joking!!!! There are so many > lovely women's voices in these talks....sigh... Azita: it is just sound, arising and falling away. Maybe I should start to speak like an Aussie shearer #@%*& - > Metta, > Phil > p.s We're off for a few days to Naomi's hometown. I won't be able > to respond to threads for a few days. Azita: hope you had a pleasant time in Naomi's hometown. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 45195 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 0:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Htoo) - I'm sure that Htoo will be replying to your post and with a far more definitive Abhidhammic perspective than I, but I would like to give my understanding on this matter also, if I may butt in. In a message dated 5/6/05 1:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Dear Htoo: I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your answer was as follows: Htoo: > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > not first-hand object. And never can they be. > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? Are any of then "first-hand" object? Why? --------------------------------------------- Howard: My understanding is that when the mind is engaged in thinking, which is something that goes on "all" the time(!), it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas such as hair, skin, organs, trees and telescopes, but those "things" are not actually occurring things at all any more than a unicorn is, but are merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed, if you will, on those phenomena that actually do occur. However, we may legitimately accord to "them" a degree of reality that is greater than that attributable to a "unicorn" in that they are well founded, being based on patterned collections of interrelated experiential realities which are not, themselves, imagined products of thought processes, but are, instead, directly arising as actual objects of consciousness. So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc that are not, themselves, thought-process-produced but which serve as the basis for our perceiving of "a gingko tree". That so-called perceiving of a gingko tree is really a process more akin to imagining than actual perceiving, for there is no tree except as a mental construct. ------------------------------------------------ Specifically, what about perception? Is perception real? Do you discover perception as perception? How? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur, and they are among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur, they are "real". (Thinking processes actually occur too, but not much of "what is thought about" actually occurs.) As to awareness of perceptions, we are, of course, aware all the time that we recognize things, that, for example, we are able to distinguish between hardness, say, and redness. (We also *think* that we perceive trees, but closer examination shows that to be illusory I believe.) So recognitions really occur and we are aware of them, and in that sense they are real. Of course, if 'real' should mean "self-existent", however, then certainly sa~n~na, as is the case with all khandhic phenomena, is quite unreal. ----------------------------------------------- Respectfully and with kind regards, Tep Your Dhamma friend ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45196 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 5:27pm Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities-Phil philofillet Hi Azita > Azita: In relation to my question about motion, I gained some > understanding that there is little point of someone else telling me > about their experience. For 'me' to know motion as a reality, it > must be experienced by Sati and Panna and then there will be knowing. Ph: Yes, of course you're right. It is enough, as another friend put it, to have our attention bent toward the experience, subtly, without clinging to expectation of results. Thus repeated listening to Kh Sujin and others on the importance of directly understanding these realities, experiencing their characteristics is more than enough. The similes that are often given re cetasikas by commentaries to clarify their characteristics (e.g initial thinking the bee hovering over the flower, applied thinking the bee diving into the flower) do help - but that's different from someone trying to share an ephemeral experience. I can understand that now - moments of impatience come and go. I also liked when you - I think it was you - asked Kh Sujin *why* annica is dukkha. I had been thinking the same thing, as it happens. And then Kh Sujin asked "what is the greatest dukkha?" and there was discussion about that. I am really enjoying listening to the talks. As for your voice being "sheepish" that wasn't quite the right word. I didn't mean it in a negative way. Something gentle, I guess. Only sound, as you say, but we do know that the rupa of voice is conditioned by the citta behind it. These days when I listen I often feel lobha for Jon's voice, and his warm laugh, and that of another man, a New Zealender, I guess (not Rob K, unless he had a cold) who speaks with great enthusiasm about Abhidhamma. It is silly to think about people's voices, but we are so accustomed to making tiny little passing judgements based in mana. On the list, I might look at someone's choice of words, and judge them, and when listening, judge their voice. Absolutely meaningless, in ultimate terms, but we spend so much time thinking about ultimately meaningless things, stories etc. At least I know I'm doing it. There is so much mana, all the time. Mana is a good example of a word that is better left in Pali (there aren't that many of them, in my opinion) because it is much wider and deeper in meaning than what we think of by "conceit" Thanks, we had a nice time during our little "Golden Week" (as they call it here in Japan) early summer vacation. Metta, Phil 45197 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Nina, I know you are not there to receive this message. But you may read it on your return. I write this at 2.41 a.m. on the 7th May. I had gone to bed with an unbearable pain in my tooth. I had gone to the Dentist yesterday evening to have a tooth in the upper jaw filled. I told her about the pain in the tooth in the lower jaw. She said she had to attend to it on another day and gave me an appointment for the 23rd. The pain was bearable therefore I did not mind. On coming home the pain on that tooth became increasingly painful. I thought I had fever. I took an Asparine and went to bed at about 9 p.m. Little by little the pain was getting worse, I was wandering how I could persuade the Dentist to take me urgently to treat my tooth. I was between short spells of sleep and waking up in pain . I could not sleep any longer and the pain was overwhelming. I looked at the time. It was 1. 58 a.m. Then I sat on the bed as comfortably as I could and began to watch the pain. Then I see that the pain is in the mind, even though the problem is with the tooth in the lower jaw. Both the jaw and the tooth are rupa. And rupa cannot feel the pain. It is the mind that feels the pain. But the pain itself is rupa. Therefore, the source of the pain, cause of the pain and the pain it-self are rupas. Mind in reality has no pain, but it only gets involved with the rupas and gets related to it in pain. If that involvement is understood, the pain should disappear or subside. That is exactly what happened. The pain is there but very much more bearable. Then I thought of your message to me. I thought I have a reply to it, and knew that you will not be there to receive it. But I did not want to forget this instance of easing of pain, by being aware of the pain, not by intellectually understanding what caused the pain, but experiencing the inter play between nama-rupa, and cause and effect. Now I am seeing the mind with no more an acute pain, but a mind with a bearable pain. I see in that mind calmness and satisfaction (sukha) as against what it was about one hour and eighteen minutes ago ( the time now is 3.06 am). This what you write in your message: "The Abhidhamma helps me to understand the characteristic of what Appears now: any phenomenon of our daily life, kusala, akusala, pleasant or unpleasant. Or just plain seeing and hearing. Understanding those is important because in their train defilements often follow, even very subtle lobha. I am so grateful to have more understanding of my defilements. " And you finish your message: "Thus, ideal for us are the whole of the Tipitaka. Also Vinaya helps us laypeople, reminds us of our vices.I just have to close down my Email now for a week because of vacation." You say that Abhidhamma helps you to understand the characteristics of what appears now: any phenomena of our daily life…….. That is so, but what you don't see is the MIND WITHOUT THE CHARACTERISTIC OF WHAT HAD APPEARS. That is what happens in Bhavana (meditation) when you become aware of the arising of a thought , that thought passes away and the MIND is SILENT until the arising of the next thought. It is that silent mind between the two thoughts moments which is the reality of the instance, not the phenomena that existed before and your understanding it as kusala or akusala or pleasant or unpleasant- any phenomena of daily life. A prisoner in his prison cell suffers being secluded, kept away from his family the comfort of his warm bed etc. But when he is released from the prison; His mind is released from the sorrow and is happy and joyful. A man carrying a valuable treasure along a path which is surrounded by a forest and known to be frequented by way side bandits, is gripped with fear, but when he has traversed the path and arrives at the protected area his fear disappears, he is safe and is happy and joyful. So is the man suffering from an illness. He is in pain and discomfort. Once he is cured of his illness, the pain and discomfort passes away and he is happy and joyful. In seeing the reality of the instance, you see only the fear of the man carrying the treasure. In seeing the reality of the instance, you see only the sadness of the prisoner. In seeing the reality of the instance, you see only the pain and discomfort of the man who was ill. But in meditation you see the mind without the "reality of the instance", that is a state of a mind released from sorrow , a state of a mind released from fear, a state of a mind released from pain and discomfort. (4am). My tooth is very much less painful. I will try to sneak into the bed hoping to catch a little sleep. Pardon me if you consider this unnecessary ranting, With metta, Hasituppada 45198 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 7:45pm Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhistmedi... Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - Thank you very much for taking time to write me about the "concepts" and "realities". Let me list some highlights of your explanation: -- "when the mind is engaged in thinking, .. it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas that are not actually occurring things at all". The concepts are "merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed on those phenomena that actually do occur". -- Realities are "directly arising" actual "objects of onsciousness". "So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc." -- "Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur". They are "among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur", they are "real". T: I really like your way with words, Howard! Now, just for the sake of expanding my understanding further, let me refer to Acharn Sujin's definitions of Pannatti and Paramattha in her e-book "Summary of Paramatthadhamma", 2000, in the following 2 paragraphs: "The paramattha-dhamma are realities that truly exist but not entities, persons or the self. The paramattha-dhamma are only citta, cetasika and rupa of distinct characteristics and signs that arise because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away. Whenever one does not know the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rupa as paramattha- dhamma that arise and fall away in very rapid sequence, then there is knowledge of pannatti (concept/signification/name) or taking signs of rupa and nama, which arise and fall away in very rapid continuation as something. Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms as something real. "Each day pannatti hides the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind so that one does not know realities as they truly are: that the reality appearing through the eyes, is not an entity, a person or the self, but only colors and features that appear when in contact with the cakkhuppasada [eye-sense]. Only when panna has developed until it knows the truth when seeing could it attenuates attachment to the reality as a self, an entity or a person, and know the differences between paramattha- arammana and pannatti-arammana. The same applies to the ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. [endquote] May I ask you and all other DSG members a question? According to the above definition, the paramattha-dhamma "arise because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away", then is it correct to say that you and I (assuming that we don't have yathabhuta- nana-dassana) only know and see pannatti (or concepts) in every moment, because the true realities are too fast for us to catch them the moment they arise or fall away? My doubt is supported by A. Sujin's own words : "Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms as something real". Since everything appears as a "concept" to us (the worldlings), then why do some worldling DSG members try so hard to make me feel that it is wrong to take "concepts" as the objects of my meditation, eventhough they themselves don't know or see the realities? Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using concepts as the objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat meditation, for now, until one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? After that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as realities, and no more concepts would apprear anymore. Respectfully, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Htoo) - > > I'm sure that Htoo will be replying to your post and with a far more > definitive Abhidhammic perspective than I, but I would like to give my > understanding on this matter also, if I may butt in. > > In a message dated 5/6/05 1:32:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Dear Htoo: > > I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your > answer was as follows: > > Htoo: > > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > > not first-hand object. And never can they be. > > > > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? Are any > of then "first-hand" object? Why? > --------------------------------------------- 45199 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 9:14pm Subject: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism foamflowers Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and ritual sacrifices of animals. He did, integrate some rituals of his own into his teachings. The Buddha set up rituals that could act as aids or vehicles in the inner journey towards the discovery of one's own true nature, a raft to carry us to the other shore so to speak. I really do think that meditation, the study of sutra and learning the Abhidhamma are aids to help me break free of suffering but I don't want to go blindly into the study of Abhidhamma. Plus categorical denial of ritual in Buddhism got me thinking; what is all that chanting, meditation, instruction, and study all about if not part of a system of teachings to unbind us from suffering? How does ritual play a part in understanding and transcendence? Here are some of my questions about religion and religious study that I've asked myself over the years and still question all the time. And now I question why I want to study the Abhidhamma. Why do I want to learn Abhidhamma and what is my motivation and why am I asking about ritual right now as I get into the study of Abhidhamma? Rituals and Religious Activities are they aids to breaking the fetters that bind us to suffering? What is ritual? What does it look like in a Buddhist context? Relic worships, chanting, reading of doctrine and sutra, meditation; what are the main components of ritual in general and in context to Dhamma and Buddhism? Entering the Temple Shrine room, the ritualized leaving daily life in reverence of the sacredness of ritual space, triple prostration of honor before the Buddha image. Kneeling with palms pressed together before the heart and head, bowing full body to the floor head on the ground. Monks and lay folk both do this depending on traditions. Lay folk also give reverence to monks and nuns in this manor. Chanting in Pali an ancient religious language of Gotama Buddha by both lay people and monks, blessings are given, discourses of the Buddha are listened too as the lay people sit lower than the Monks, usually on the floor with feet turned away from the Teacher Monk. Special housing, clothing, social rights to distance religious body from lay community…ritual plays a part in establishing authority? Merit for both oneself and others through ritual acts and daily giving for a better life in the next rebirth are a large part of daily life for most native Buddhist. Theravada monks study and chant the Buddhist scriptures and perform ritual ceremonies for the lay public. The monks go on daily rounds of silent begging for alms, and the householders practice generosity by offering them food. Practice: Meditation, visualization, liturgy (collection of formulas and other texts), mantra and text recitation, image veneration, and initiation. Structure, elements and methods of the Abhidhamma, investigation into why it was established as important part of Buddhist doctrine. Theravada monks study and chant the Buddhist scriptures and perform ritual ceremonies for the lay public. The monks go on daily rounds of silent begging for alms, and the householders practice generosity by offering them food. Theravada ritual begins with three particular Pali chants. Buddha vandana, or Homage to the Buddha, is known also by its first two Pali words: Namo tassa. Ritual is work? Can we look without bias at tradition and ritual outside of our own culture? When establishing a new religion in our life how does bias affect our understanding of doctrine, practice and rituals? Aversion to creator gods, thoughtless ritual and ceremony, blind faith; does that color the way we see our new adopted religion or philosophy? I'm I wearing rose-colored glasses? What is the origin of our/my belief on ritual? Has the meaning of ritual changed over time? How do people who come to Buddhism and Abhidhamma let go of their old belief system of ritual so it will not color the long established ritual of the religious study of the Abhidhamma text and Buddhism? Can we really look at another religion outside of our own belief system without bias and use it for a tool to unbind from suffering? Rituals and privileged status, scholars and practitioners, how does intellectual powers give status to the study of Abhidhamma and Buddhism in general? How does tradition of those who are part of Buddhism and study Abhidhamma play a part in their actions and performance? Where is wisdom located? Can the body know? Is ritual empirically based? Does the body have to be involved for immediate, non-conceptual wisdom? Does my use and understanding of the Pali language help or hinder letting go of conceptual grasping and ignorance of self? Is there self-aggrandizing power in knowing what few know? What are the goals of understanding Nama and Rupa? What theoretical strategies, conceptual tools and analytical categories are used in the Abhidhamma and is this study ritualized reading? What is the internal logic, teaching aid to be taken seriously or lightly? How is Abhidhamma structured, what are it's basic components; metaphysical, phenomenal, political, psychological, status quo, what else? What is the difference between reading religious text and reading daily text? Is reading doctrine like the sutra and Abhidhamma a way to transform or reveal, uncover what is sacred, a ritual act of transformation through understanding? Can reading not be reading and text not be text? What is the difference between ritualized reading and casual reading? The Five Precepts and taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is this an initiation ritual? Taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, a transformation, a initiation, taking and following the precepts and recitation of precepts, formative and transformative. Initiation and ritual an aid in letting go of old hurtful habits and conditioning and a tool to aid memory in establishing more healthful habit patterns for building a stable foundation to make that leap into the unknown? With Metta, Lisa 45200 From: "nichiconn" Date: Fri May 6, 2005 8:47pm Subject: thank you / dsg nichiconn i think thanks for the thoughts of well-being and still can't help wishing things a bit perversely: May every day be a good day to die. halleluya. ;) Every breath the last. Steam on the mirror, or glass on the screen door here today. Inhale as it fades/shrinks. Does dying happy count? who cares? It's done and gone on. What's that word? tathA agata ?? 4 things are always gone to some description/mark of : manifestation (manifest destiny!) tilakkhana, goes w/out saying. uniqueness? relentlessness? Lisa is my mother's name. rambling, c. 45201 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 6, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/6/05 11:42:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - Thank you very much for taking time to write me about the "concepts" and "realities". Let me list some highlights of your explanation: -- "when the mind is engaged in thinking, .. it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas that are not actually occurring things at all". The concepts are "merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed on those phenomena that actually do occur". -- Realities are "directly arising" actual "objects of onsciousness". "So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc." -- "Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur". They are "among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur", they are "real". T: I really like your way with words, Howard! Now, just for the sake of expanding my understanding further, let me refer to Acharn Sujin's definitions of Pannatti and Paramattha in her e-book "Summary of Paramatthadhamma", 2000, in the following 2 paragraphs: "The paramattha-dhamma are realities that truly exist but not entities, persons or the self. The paramattha-dhamma are only citta, cetasika and rupa of distinct characteristics and signs that arise because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away. Whenever one does not know the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rupa as paramattha- dhamma that arise and fall away in very rapid sequence, then there is knowledge of pannatti (concept/signification/name) or taking signs of rupa and nama, which arise and fall away in very rapid continuation as something. Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms as something real. "Each day pannatti hides the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind so that one does not know realities as they truly are: that the reality appearing through the eyes, is not an entity, a person or the self, but only colors and features that appear when in contact with the cakkhuppasada [eye-sense]. Only when panna has developed until it knows the truth when seeing could it attenuates attachment to the reality as a self, an entity or a person, and know the differences between paramattha- arammana and pannatti-arammana. The same applies to the ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. [endquote] May I ask you and all other DSG members a question? According to the above definition, the paramattha-dhamma "arise because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away", then is it correct to say that you and I (assuming that we don't have yathabhuta- nana-dassana) only know and see pannatti (or concepts) in every moment, because the true realities are too fast for us to catch them the moment they arise or fall away? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think so. I have not been persuaded by the speed argument. After all, what is observed is observed in the very mindstates that are "so quickly moving". It is not as if there is a "watcher" standing back and observing a rapid stream of mindstates; the mindstates themselves are the observational states! I believe we are taken in by the magician-mind's creation of a world of concept due to fundamental avijja. ------------------------------------------------ My doubt is supported by A. Sujin's own words : "Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms as something real". Since everything appears as a "concept" to us (the worldlings), then why do some worldling DSG members try so hard to make me feel that it is wrong to take "concepts" as the objects of my meditation, eventhough they themselves don't know or see the realities? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: We don't experience only conceptually. When we experience hardness or warmth or a sight, we do so directly at first and the conceptualizing follows upon that. A feature of "mindfulness meditation" according to Nyanaponika Thera is to prolong the direct observational phase of observing. Whether that is so or not, cerrtainly Buddhist practice enables one to begin to see through concepts to the actual phenomena on which they are superimposed. In any case, I do not think it is wrong to take pa~n~natti as objects of meditation. THAT IS WHERE THE DHAMMAS ARE! When the Buddha taught the Anapanasati Sutta, he directed us to put our attention on the breath, not on the experiential realities of touch sensation, warmth, coolness, moisture, etc that we actually experience when "attending to the breath". Attending to the breath puts our attention where the action is. As we do so, eventually "breath" disappears, and what remains are dhammas.The seeing through the breath to the dhammas is a form of insight. And then we see that these dhammas themselves are *radically* impermanent, without substance, and without own-being: dependent, inseparable, momentary waves in an experiential stream that makes the wildest sci-fi scenarios seem ordinary by comparison. ---------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using concepts as the objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat meditation, for now, until one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? After that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as realities, and no more concepts would apprear anymore. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say that is correct. We begin where we are, not where we would hope to be. BTW, I have long thought that the 4th foundation of mindfulness, dhammanupassana, is the stage of real mindfulness meditation and represents the advanced point at which concepts have been seen through and we are looking directly at realities, "face to face, and not as through a glass darkly". ---------------------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45202 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 6, 2005 11:17pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 186 - Enthusiasm/piiti (d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] As we have seen, in the case of the kåmåvacara cittas, píti arises with the cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling. Whenever there is interest in the object and delight with it there is also pleasant feeling; in such cases there cannot be indifferent feeling or unpleasant feeling. In the case of akusala cittas, píti arises with the types of lobha múla-cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling1. When the lobha-múla-citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling, the lobha is more intense than when it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Píti which arises together with lobha-múla-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling takes an interest in the desirable object, it is delighted, thrilled with it. For example, when we have thoroughly enjoyed listening to beautiful music we may applaud with great enthusiasm. When we admire a musician, a painter or a famous sportsman, there may be many moments of lobha-múla-citta with píti. Whenever we are attached to an object with pleasant feeling, there is also píti. The object may be a pleasant sight, a beautiful sound, a fragrant odour, a delicious flavour, a pleasant tangible object or an agreeable object experienced through the mind-door. There are many moments of akusala píti we are not aware of. *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 4. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45203 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:20am Subject: Re: thank you / dsg foamflowers Dear Connie, In many mahayana teachings to remember that we all have at one time or another been each others mother is a way of unbinding from clinging to self, fear, hatred and loathing of other. I found a word you used, 'tilakkhana' and I remembered something. This article is very much like what I was taught in vipassana meditation. Part of a larger article I read a while back because I happen to like the word 'Naana' http://www.palikanon.com/english/practice_insight/direction.htm From the 4th ñána onwards one enters the stages of vipassaná-ñána and meditates in order to gain a clear comprehension of the three characteristics anicca, dukkha, anattá. One cannot go searching for the tilakkhana; but if one notes the presently existing rúpa-náma perceiving the arising and vanishing, then the tilakkhana, which are the uggaha-nimitta (acquired sign) of vipassaná, will become more evident. It is the function of anuloma to concentrate on this uggaha-nimitta which is the nature of the 5 rúpa-náma-kkhandha. In every consciousness-process, that is in every act of noticing, there arises then: parikamma-upacára-anuloma-patiloma (preparation, access, thrusting forward, receding again), because the strength of anuloma is not sufficient to yield or turn into absorption. In the development of patipadá-ñána-dassana or vipassaná-ñána, understanding and perception of the three characteristics gain power and thus anuloma becomes stronger. It is said, when the meditator has reached sankhárupekkhá-ñána and makes an effort to contemplate persistently so as to increase and make much of sankhárupekkhá, then saddhá (confidence and faith) of the meditator will become intrepid, his energy will be supported well, sati becomes firmly established, the mind is very concentrated, and sankhárupekkhá becomes unshakable. Then sankhárupekkhá-ñána of that meditator will become aware that the maggañána is about to arise now. Therefore it considers all sankhára as either anicca or dukkha or anattá --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nichiconn" wrote: > i think thanks for the thoughts of well-being and still can't help > wishing things a bit perversely: May every day be a good day to die. > halleluya. ;) > Every breath the last. Steam on the mirror, or glass on the screen > door here today. Inhale as it fades/shrinks. Does dying happy > count? who cares? It's done and gone on. What's that word? tathA > agata ?? > > 4 things are always gone to some description/mark of : > manifestation (manifest destiny!) > tilakkhana, goes w/out saying. > uniqueness? relentlessness? > > Lisa is my mother's name. > rambling, > c. 45204 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:25am Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - Hi Tep, You offered for anyone to butt in so I am going to take you up on your offer. Really, I have debated these items many times in this group but now I feel energetic and well-rested (having gotten my needed medication for my sleeping disorder- and am back to meditating), and I feel that maybe these issues are important to discuss again and again: Tep: Since everything appears as a "concept" to us (the worldlings), then why do some worldling DSG members try so hard to make me feel that it is wrong to take "concepts" as the objects of my meditation, James: You are quite correct in your assertion that they try to make you *feel* as if you are doing something wrong. This approach of theirs has, in the past, been the condition for me to write some very scathing and hot retorts. I really don't like it when someone tries to make me feel like I am doing something wrong when I know that I am not. However, it is important to keep your dignity and your wits about you and to remember that they are the ones with the problem. If they didn't feel some deep insecurity about their own Buddhist practice or wisdom, they wouldn't try so hard to make others feel bad or wrong. Tep: even though they themselves don't know or see the realities? James: Yes, it is hypocritical. They preach something that they are not able to do (perhaps therein lies the insecurity I mention above). Also, I don't like the term `realities', it is very misleading. It is better to use the terminology the Abhidhamma uses, "dhammas". The human mind defines reality, either correctly or incorrectly, and dhammas are those constituents which lie outside of this definition of `reality'. Actually, true `realities' are concepts. Tep: Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using concepts as the objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat meditation, for now, until one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? James: Of course we have no choice but to use `concepts' as the objects of Satipatthana- BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE BUDDHA TAUGHT! The Buddha taught in the Satipatthana Sutta that we should use the breath and the 32 parts of the body as objects of contemplation. These things are not `dhammas', but so what? Now, the other camp (K. Sujinians, for want of a better term) are starting to come up with a new argument: Suttas don't really mean what they say if the whole Tipitaka is taken into account (the Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries- they always conveniently leave out the Vinaya since the Vinaya blows their theory out of the water immediately ;). First of all, those who make this argument don't know the `Whole Tipitaka' to make such a ludicrous assertion. Bhikkhu Bodhi, who would probably be the only one posting to this group who is qualified as knowing the `Whole Tipitaka', doesn't agree with their half-baked theories (that should tell you and them something!). Additionally, it should be remembered that the audience during the Buddha's time didn't know the `Whole Tipitaka' because it wasn't even completely formed yet or they had heard but only parts! The K. Sujinians seem to think that the sons of the Buddha had a large stack of books in front of each of them so that they could check and cross-reference everything the Buddha spoke. Obviously, that wasn't the case. Tep: After that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as realities, and no more concepts would apprear anymore. James: Here I don't agree with you. It seems to me that you are trying to reach a `compromise' with the K. Sujinians, and that isn't necessary. Arahants and the Buddha still saw `reality' in terms of concepts, or they wouldn't have been able to function in the world. Of course, they were able to see past the surface appearance of concepts because they were no longer attached to them. Metta, James 45205 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:29am Subject: James' Contribution [was Re: Breathing. - Htoo/Sukinder's Panna...] buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James and Kel - > > In message # 45166, James wrote : Very nice summary, Tep. > -- 'When the wisdom has affected that which it has to do, then the > wisdom ceases to go on. But that which has been acquired by means > of it remains--the knowledge of the impermanence of every being, of > the suffering inherent in individuality, and of the absence of any soul.' > > The last item is most interesting. Maybe it has something to do with > accumulations. I'm not sure what it has to do with, but I think it is important to remember. 'Wisdom' rises for a purpose and then it goes away. It would be wrong to call the Buddha or Arahnts 'wise' because they have gone past wisdom. > > > Respectfully yours, > > > Tep > Metta, James 45206 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing. jonoabb Hi Nina (and Tep), and All To my great relief, my internet connection problems seem to be resolved (fingers crossed). Nina, hope this reaches you before you go away for the week. Nina van Gorkom wrote: >Hi Jon and Tep, >I looked again at the text. Kh Sujin was explaining how Mindfulness of >in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great >benefit. >Her answer was: through satipatthana, by using it as an object of insight. >Nina. > > Thanks for these remarks. Yes, I need to correct what I said in my earlier post, when I suggested that the first tetrad of the Anapanasati Sutta was to be distinguished from the remaining 3 by being limited to samatha. As you point out, all 4 tetrads relate to satipatthana. Jon PS Nina and Lodewijk, hope you enjoy your trip. 45207 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 jonoabb Hi Tep I hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) You have quoted a number of suttas that refer to concentration and/or jhana. I'd like to make some general comments about concentration. Where a sutta refers to 'concentration' in the context of the development of the path, it is of course only kusala concentration that is meant. While this may seem obvious, it is important to note, because concentration can be kusala or akusala, depending on the citta it accompanies. When is concentration kusala? Concentration is kusala if (and only if) it accompanies kusala consciousness. That is to say, there can only be kusala concentration if there is kusala of one kind or another arising. As you know, there are different kinds of kusala, and one way of classifying kusala is as dana, sila and bhavana. Bhavana encompasses both samatha ('tranquillity) and vipassana ('insight'). So when we read in a sutta reference to concentration, we need to ask ourselves whether the reference is to the concentration that accompanies samatha bhavana or the concentration that accompanies vipassana bhavana. If it is samatha bhavana that is referred to, we need to further ask whether this is mentioned for the reason that, for example, the listeners are monks who are already skilled in samatha, and thus have the potential for attaining enlightenment with jhana as basis. A classic example of the latter (i.e., a reference to samatha in a teaching given to monks who are already skilled in samatha) would be the Anapanasati Sutta, which you are considering in another thread. It is clear from the introductory part of that sutta that the monks are already developing anapanasati. In such cases, we should be careful about taking the sutta to mean that anyone who wishes to develop insight (from the beginning), should start with the development of anapanasati. In summary, 'samadhi' sometimes refers to the concentration that accompanies samatha, and sometimes to the concentration that accompanies insight. We need to find out from the context or from the commentaries which of these is intended in the particular case. A similar thing applies as regards references to jhana. Sometimes it refers to the jhana that is the outcome of the development of samatha, and sometimes to the momentary concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness. The concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness is said to be of the intensity of jhana. I hope you find this useful. I'll try to make some comments on your specific sutta quotes (trimmed for the purpose of this reply) in a separate post. Jon Tep Sastri wrote: >Dear Nina and Sukinder - > >Intellectual understanding is necessary at the beginning when we >study the Dhamma (pariyatti). However, it is a mistake to believe that >intellectual understanding alone is strong enough as the supporting >condition for knowledge and vision of realities: it is concentration >(samadhi) that is the supporting condition for knowledge and vision of >realities. I have at least three evidences from the suttas plus some >advice from Bhikkhu Bodhi's book to prove my point. Please read the >following excerpts with an open mind. > >(I) Concentration supports discernment (panna). > "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things >as they actually are present." SN XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta. ... > > 45208 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self & No Self jonoabb Hi, Naresh Just a short comment to supplement Nina's response. naresh gurwani wrote: >Another query why is it so difficult to accept tht >there is no self, iam trying to understand , but it is >quite difficult to accept the fact of No -self > >but on the other hand iam very much keen on knowing >only Truth, >So self & no self is a big battle field inside me this >2 clashes & make my living worse. > > The teaching on 'no-self' is the deepest, most difficult part of the entire teachings to properly grasp. It is something that can only be appreciated step by step, as the understanding of dhammas is gradually developed. We should not worry too much about not seeing this in the beginning. As you have commented, this only makes things more difficult, not less difficult. Jon 45209 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 44's up jonoabb Hi Connie I enjoyed your original post, especially the great verses from Dispeller about ageing as suffering. Some of the descriptions there were me to a tee! Thanks for the thoughts. Hope you're feeling better by now. Jon connie wrote: > dear Sarah, Jon, All, >there was nothing cryptic intended... just that the archives are updated >& birthday greetings. I remembered saying I'd take my nose out of the >book long enough to write when a keyboard washed up on my desert island as >I was dropping a wet rag onto the burning one & that struck me as being >rather funny at the time. So did my friend's screaming and running out of >the house, but considering she wouldn't even be buying this one if her old >one hadn't burnt to the ground, perhaps all those people who've suggested >that my sense of humour isn't quite what it should be have a point. >Anyway, seems whatever I'd been trying to fight off the few days before >that took advantage of the situation and I've been sicker than a dog >since, so fever is my excuse for any more than usual lack of sense. >peace, >connie on the way back to bed > > 45210 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 181- Right Effort of the eightfold Path (l) jonoabb Hi Azita gazita2002 wrote: > Hello Sarah and other friends, > I understand birthday greetings are in order - but I'm unsure >whether its you or Jon - anyway, I'll send wishes to both of you and >then that covers it for this year :-) > > Yep, it is (or was) both of us. Thanks a lot! Jon 45211 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Instructions ..by the buddha? jonoabb Hi Mateesha I would certainly agree that there are suttas in which the Buddha encouraged the development of samatha (and I think no-one on this list has ever suggested otherwise). And similarly he taught the development of insight with jhana consciousness as basis. The more important (and, apparently, controversial) question is whether he always taught samatha when teaching insight. Do you have any thoughts to share on this? Jon matheesha wrote: >Samatha and vipassana has been likened to two wheels on the chariot >of the dhamma. The buddha said that he would teach samatha to those >who knew vipassana and vice versa. > >The current theravada world seems to be in the grip of sathipatthana >and seems to have forgotten that it is not that simple. To reject >everything else is simply to blinkered and sometimes just be trying >to run on one wheel. > >If a teacher was teaching his students to meditate on golden lotuses >would you say this is sathipattana? > >If a teacher was teaching his students to meditate by rubbing on a >white cloth, is this sathipattana? > >Yet both these methods are instructions by the buddha. > >Is there only so much you can know by a 'one size fits all' attitude >towards the dhamma? When carefully built up castles of concepts >start crumbling what is left? What is left to investigate in ones >own mind? > >metta > >Matheesha > > 45212 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:54am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing Tep wrote: Dear Htoo: I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your answer was as follows: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Tep. I think there seems to remain unsettled question. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover anything > > that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are > > not first-hand object. And never can they be. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha dhamma can come to you in both ways. One way is in the form of paramattha dhamma. Another way is in the form of pannatti. When they come to you in the form of pannatti, they are not of your first-hand object. If still not clear further explanations are ready for you and anyone else. So rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana are found in my mind. They may be first-hand object or they may be later object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Are any of then "first-hand" object? Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 7 ruupa that are 1st hand object. 1. sight 2. sound 3. smell 4. taste 5. hardness 6. temperature 7. pressure Citta can also be 1st hand object only after thorough and repeated learning. So do cetasikas. Nibbana is only first hand object only when lokuttara cittas arise. All pannatti are constructions. Why? because 7 ruupas do serving as objects. As they are objects and ruupa they are 1st hand object. Citta can also be 1st hand through manodvarika cittas. Why because, it can serve as dhamma-arammana. So do cetasikas and nibbana. Pannatti is not first-hand object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Specifically, what about perception? Is perception real? Do you discover perception as perception? How? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Perception (Sanna) is cetasika. If you are talking about 'perception' that appears in conventional books, it may have different meanings. But sanna is real. So if you referred to sanna as perception, it is real. You asked 'Do you discover perception as perception?' This is I think asking personal opinion. I do not need to answer this question. But to generalize, anyone can discover perception (sanna) as perception (sanna). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Respectfully and with kind regards, Tep Your Dhamma friend ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Friends Always, Htoo Naing 45213 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:56am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Does abhidhamma have anything to say about groups such as rupa kalapas > or the mental body with respect to these four features? Are groups of > realities (khandhas) considered to be real? > > Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, Kalapas are working units. So they are real and can be experienced. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45214 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Introduction jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Great suggestion, Jon! I do have the Thai version and it will not be any >trouble for me to incorporate nice things from it into the presentation. >But the Pali supplement is beyond my reach (like trying to pick a fruit >from a tall tree?)-- maybe I can make an attempt at it, but I do need help >to correct inevitable errors! > > I'm afraid I would be no help in correcting errors in Pali translation, due to my own lamentable lack of Pali skills. ;-)) Looking forward to your extracts from the Thai. Jon 45215 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Rob K wrote: > > Dear Htoo, > > I don't know that phrase, what is the pali? Why do you ask? > Robertk > -------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Rob K, > > I do have a very special reason for asking this question. > > The Buddha just said 'when bhikkhu breathes in long, he knows he > breathes in long'. > > May I ask another time? > > Did The Buddha say 'note incoming air and outgoing air' 'note nose, > mouth, lip' etc in mahaasatipatthaana sutta? > > ======== Dear Htoo, I don't remember that section of the satipatthana sutta, I don't think he did. Robertk 45216 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 3:13am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau Hi Tep, --------------------------------------- T: > In this message you mentioned "insight into conditioned dhammas" and said it was the "momentary arising of panna to take another conditioned nama or rupa as its object". Honestly speaking, have you ever had such experience ----------------------------------------- Do I want to have such experience? When panna takes a paramattha dhamma as its object there are only dhammas. Am I ready to know there is no Ken H? I don't know. But I think, when I am ready, I will know. :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ T: > without using a samatha meditation as described in the Kayagatasati Sutta? ------------------------------------------------------------- Please refer to previous DSG threads on the nature of samatha meditation. Please refer also to the many suttas that describe vipassana being developed at any time and in any situation. ----------------------------------- H: > I have often had such "awareness of rupa and nama" while I do walking meditation slowly or breathing meditation. ---------------------------------- No matter how slowly you walk or breathe, you cannot directly know nama and rupa. Only panna and sati can do that. Panna and sati are paramattha dhammas, not self. ------------------------------- KenH : > > Again, I shouldn't sidetrack our conversation, but have you noticed the wording, "There is the case where a monk remains focussed"? It is not, "Perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness": it is simply a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness. ........... T: > This issue is not a sidetrack one for me. So please allow me to say a few words here. Whether that is "a description of a case where monk is already practising right mindfulness" or "perform the following exercises in order to create right mindfulness", the effect on me is the same. To me the sutta elaborates on the detailed activity of a prototype meditator (call him a "monk" or a "bhikkhu") that I can use as my model. -------------------------------- Well, I would urge you to reconsider. By all means understand, to the best of your ability, what the bhikkhus in that sutta are doing, but do not imitate them. ------------------------------------------ T: > I don't waste time worrying too much about the wordings and their interpretation the way you do, because that does not benefit me as a meditator. I am not a language expert. I am not a philosopher. It is not my concern whether this or that object of meditation is a concept (pannatti) or a reality (paramattha) as long as the Buddha recommended it; it must work for me too. I am not a debater either. ------------------------------------------ You can practise the Buddha's teaching only to the extent that you have heard and understood it. If there is ignorance, then know there is ignorance because the only way to have respect for the Buddha is to understand the present reality, whatever it is. Ken H 45217 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 3:40am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada hasituppada DearKenH, You say in a reply to Tep, ".......then know thereis ignorance because the only way to have respect for the Buddha isto understand the present reality, whatever it is." I have neither the lower panna nor the higher panna. Could you please, explain to me what is "the PRESENT REALITY" ? with metta, Hasituppada 45218 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:28am Subject: Nibbana - right here & now - in this very life or Non-return ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to Cut the Five Minor Mental Chains : Friends, how do one cut the 5 minor mental chains of: a.. Identity and personality belief. b.. Sceptical doubt in the Buddha. c.. Superstitious clinging to rule & ritual. d.. Greed, desire, lust and attraction. e.. Hate, anger, irritation, & aversion. In whatever situation or mental state one enters, whether high or low, whether fine or foul, whether subtle or gross, whether far or near, one knows, notes, reflects and remembers the facts exactly like this: 'Whatsoever herein is form, feeling, experience, mental construction, & bare consciousness, all this is impermanent, transient, passing, unstable, decaying, and vanishing; all this is miserable, painful, ill, a thorn, a tumour, a disaster, a torture, and a burning pit; all this is remote, alien, impersonal, ownerless, void of stable substance & keepable entity, completely empty of any self-ego-me-I-mine-identity-or-personality...' One thereby directs mind away from those unsafe phenomena and turns it towards the freedom of the Deathless Dimension: Nibbâna like this: 'But this is peace, the supreme stilling of all construction, the relinquishing of all acquisition, the sublime release of all clinging, the calming of all craving, disgust, disillusion, ceasing of all noise, perception & sensation, Nibbâna...' Firmly established in this safe mode of reflection, one either eliminates the mental fermentations completely and thus attains Nibbâna - here and now - in this very life, or if not that, then one is reborn spontaneously in the pure abodes, the pure lands, the pure realms, the pure spheres, of light matter, where one clears the 5 lower fetters - the 5 minor mental chains - & attains Nibbâna from there, without ever returning to this world from that level... The Moderated Speeches by the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 64 [I 435-7] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html PS: The 'Pure Land' (SukhaVati) Buddhism of today may thus have begun from what the Buddha early & originally called 'The Pure Abodes' (SuddhaVasa): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/loka.html#rupa Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45219 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, I just read this and wanted to respond immediately. ---------------------------------- You said: The Buddha said to his disciples bhikkhus at kammaasadhamma village in kuru country, which is close to Deli in India that '...gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.' This means that 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going 'in detail'. Sukinder: Well, what *really* are the details Htoo? There is vinnana, sankhara, vedana, sanna, earth, fire, wind elements and there is kayavinnatti. Do you think the Buddha would ask us, or rather the disciples who were his audience, to observe non-existent body, left/right feet, bending, and so on belonging to non-existent selves? Does not this amount to `misleading'? When there is all the time Paramattha Dhammas, why would the Buddha ask us to observe concepts, especially the particular audience of the Satipatthana Sutta? Before hearing the Teachings and long after that, this body, this hand, feet, head, face, etc. and other bodies, faces etc. have been misperceived and misconceived. When the Sutta refer to the different postures and the parts of the body, the objective is to draw the attention to what *really* are the elements of experience. All that were wrongly conceived, we now have the chance to correct. Thanks to the Buddha! This is the objective of the Sutta. But instead you and most of the Buddhist world encourage the same kind of misperception in the name of `patipatti'. You see the efficacy in it where there is none, obviously fed by the illusion of result, some of which have lead so far as to thinking that nama-rupa parichedannana or even the tilakkhana have being experienced. ------------------------------------------ Htoo: Here 'in detail' is very very important and crucial. Without inclusion of this, there always arise confusion. Sukinder: Yes, if there is correct understanding and the level of accumulated panna corresponds, no, if there is not ;-). The latter is part of that which drives certain worldlings to arouse "wrong effort". ------------------------------------------ Htoo: The confusion is that those people who are good at abhidhamma argue that 'to know going as going' is not satipatthana and so on. Sukinder: Are you saying that there are other ways to patipatti than first acquiring pariyatti? What is the paccaya leading to satipatthana from knowing bodily postures, such as sitting, standing, walking and lying down, the way you and most `meditators' seek to know it? ----------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. Jaananti means 'to know'. Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. Sukinder: Again, detail of what? Realities, or unrealities? ---------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukinder 45220 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 6:02am Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... buddhistmedi... Hi, Friend Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - I am happy to respond to your message. We are, in general, in agreement with respect to the main issue. T: ... is it correct to say that you and I (assuming that we don't have >yathabhuta-nana-dassana) only know and see pannatti (or concepts) >in every moment, because the true realities are too fast for us to catch >them the moment they arise or fall away? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think so. I have not been persuaded by the speed argument. After all, what is observed is observed in the very mindstates that are "so quickly moving". It is not as if there is a "watcher" standing back and observing a rapid stream of mindstates; the mindstates themselves are the observational states! I believe we are taken in by the magician-mind's creation of a world of concept due to fundamental avijja. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: In any case, I do not think it is wrong to take pa~n~natti as objects of meditation. THAT IS WHERE THE DHAMMAS ARE! When the Buddha taught the Anapanasati Sutta, he directed us to put our attention on the breath, not on the experiential realities of touch sensation, warmth, coolness, moisture, etc that we actually experience when "attending to the breath". Attending to the breath puts our attention where the action is. As we do so, eventually "breath" disappears, and what remains are dhammas.The seeing through the breath to the dhammas is a form of insight. And then we see that these dhammas themselves are *radically* impermanent, without substance, and without own-being: dependent, inseparable, momentary waves in an experiential stream that makes the wildest sci-fi scenarios seem ordinary by comparison. ---------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using >concepts as the objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat >meditation, for now, until one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? After >that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as realities, and no >more concepts would apprear anymore. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would say that is correct. We begin where we are, not where we would hope to be. BTW, I have long thought that the 4th foundation of mindfulness, dhammanupassana, is the stage of real mindfulness meditation and represents the advanced point at which concepts have been seen through and we are looking directly at realities, "face to face, and not as through a glass darkly". ---------------------------------------------------- Tep: I think you're right - this dhammanupassana stage of anapanasati is based on the four anupassanas: aniccanupassana, viraganupassana, nirodhanupassana, and patinissagganupassana. The power of the anupassana of this stage is supported by the strength of concentration that has been achieved throught the third stage (cittanupassana), when the yogi's mind is associated with "purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain". And such mind state supports arising of the lokuttara panna that can look at the realities "face to face, and not as through a glass darkly" -- as you put it. Thank you very much, Howard. Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 5/6/05 11:42:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - > > Thank you very much for taking time to write me about the "concepts" > and "realities". > > Let me list some highlights of your explanation: > > -- "when the mind is engaged in thinking, .. it does so largely in terms of > conventional ideas that are not actually occurring things at all". The > concepts are "merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed on > those phenomena that actually do occur". > > -- Realities are "directly arising" actual "objects of onsciousness". "So, > for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights > etc." > > -- "Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental > operations that actually occur". They are "among the khandhic > elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and > to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the > sense that they actually occur", they are "real". > > T: I really like your way with words, Howard! Now, just for the sake of > expanding my understanding further, let me refer to Acharn Sujin's > definitions of Pannatti and Paramattha in her e-book "Summary of > Paramatthadhamma", 2000, in the following 2 paragraphs: > > "The paramattha-dhamma are realities that truly exist but not entities, > persons or the self. The paramattha-dhamma are only citta, cetasika > and rupa of distinct characteristics and signs that arise because of > causes and conditions and fall rapidly away. Whenever one does not > know the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rupa as paramattha- > dhamma that arise and fall away in very rapid sequence, then there is > knowledge of pannatti (concept/signification/name) or taking signs of > rupa and nama, which arise and fall away in very rapid continuation as > something. Therefore those who do not know the characteristics of > paramattha-dhamma are in the world of sammati-sacca (conventional > truth) because they take realities that appear by their signs and forms > as something real. > > "Each day pannatti hides the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma > through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind so that one > does not know realities as they truly are: that the reality appearing > through the eyes, is not an entity, a person or the self, but only colors > and features that appear when in contact with the cakkhuppasada > [eye-sense]. Only when panna has developed until it knows the truth > when seeing could it attenuates attachment to the reality as a self, an > entity or a person, and know the differences between paramattha- > arammana and pannatti-arammana. The same applies to the ears, > nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. [endquote] > > May I ask you and all other DSG members a question? > > According to the above definition, the paramattha-dhamma "arise > because of causes and conditions and fall rapidly away", then is it > correct to say that you and I (assuming that we don't have yathabhuta- > nana-dassana) only know and see pannatti (or concepts) in every > moment, because the true realities are too fast for us to catch them the > moment they arise or fall away? > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't think so. I have not been persuaded by the speed argument. After > all, what is observed is observed in the very mindstates that are "so quickly > moving". It is not as if there is a "watcher" standing back and observing a > rapid stream of mindstates; the mindstates themselves are the observational > states! > I believe we are taken in by the magician-mind's creation of a world of > concept due to fundamental avijja. > ------------------------------------------------ > > > My doubt is supported by A. Sujin's own words : "Therefore those who > do not know the characteristics of paramattha-dhamma are in the world > of sammati-sacca (conventional truth) because they take realities that > appear by their signs and forms as something real". > > Since everything appears as a "concept" to us (the worldlings), then > why do some worldling DSG members try so hard to make me feel that > it is wrong to take "concepts" as the objects of my meditation, > eventhough they themselves don't know or see the realities? > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We don't experience only conceptually. When we experience hardness or > warmth or a sight, we do so directly at first and the conceptualizing follows > upon that. A feature of "mindfulness meditation" according to Nyanaponika Thera > is to prolong the direct observational phase of observing. Whether that is so > or not, cerrtainly Buddhist practice enables one to begin to see through > concepts to the actual phenomena on which they are superimposed. In any case, I do > not think it is wrong to take pa~n~natti as objects of meditation. THAT IS > WHERE THE DHAMMAS ARE! When the Buddha taught the Anapanasati Sutta, he directed > us to put our attention on the breath, not on the experiential realities of > touch sensation, warmth, coolness, moisture, etc that we actually experience when > "attending to the breath". Attending to the breath puts our attention where > the action is. As we do so, eventually "breath" disappears, and what remains > are dhammas.The seeing through the breath to the dhammas is a form of insight. > And then we see that these dhammas themselves are *radically* impermanent, > without substance, and without own-being: dependent, inseparable, momentary waves > in an experiential stream that makes the wildest sci-fi scenarios seem > ordinary by comparison. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using concepts as > the > objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat meditation, for now, until > one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? After that moment, of course, > all realities will be seen as realities, and no more concepts would > apprear anymore. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I would say that is correct. We begin where we are, not where we would > hope to be. BTW, I have long thought that the 4th foundation of mindfulness, > dhammanupassana, is the stage of real mindfulness meditation and represents the > advanced point at which concepts have been seen through and we are looking > directly at realities, "face to face, and not as through a glass darkly". > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Respectfully, > > > > Tep > =========================== > With metta, > Howard > 45222 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 6:41am Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhistmedi... Hi James - It is nice to know that your health is improving. James: You are quite correct in your assertion that they try to make you *feel* as if you are doing something wrong. This approach of theirs has, in the past, been the condition for me to write some very scathing and hot retorts. I really don't like it when someone tries to make me feel like I am doing something wrong when I know that I am not. Tep: I understand how you feel, James. But "hot retorts" are not effective for two-way communication. James: Of course we have no choice but to use `concepts' as the objects of Satipatthana- BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE BUDDHA TAUGHT! The Buddha taught in the Satipatthana Sutta that we should use the breath and the 32 parts of the body as objects of contemplation. These things are not `dhammas', but so what? Now, the other camp (K. Sujinians, for want of a better term) are starting to come up with a new argument: Suttas don't really mean what they say if the whole Tipitaka is taken into account (the Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries- they always conveniently leave out the Vinaya since the Vinaya blows their theory out of the water immediately ;). Tep : Yes, James, you're right that our Great Buddha used concepts all the time, but the 4 "realities" (rupa, citta, cetasikas, Nibbana) are also found everywhere in the suttas. Of course, when someone can't deny the Teachings they have to come up with another way to interpret the Buddha's words: "Oh, I don't think that was what He meant....You have to read His Teachings more carefully ... Yeah, I know it was confusing, but ..." . James: ...Additionally, it should be remembered that the audience during the Buddha's time didn't know the `Whole Tipitaka' because it wasn't even completely formed yet or they had heard but only parts! Tep : I believe we can get to know everything about the key Dhammas the Buddha taught (the Bodhipakkhiya) by using a subset of less than 10 suttas. >Tep: After that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as >realities, and no more concepts would apprear anymore. James: Here I don't agree with you. It seems to me that you are trying to reach a `compromise' with the K. Sujinians, and that isn't necessary. Arahants and the Buddha still saw `reality' in terms of concepts, or they wouldn't have been able to function in the world. Of course, they were able to see past the surface appearance of concepts because they were no longer attached to them. Tep: Shame on me, James! I have been called "diplomatic" often and I do understand why. Of course, no diplomats can succeed without compromising. It is also very useful in any negotiation too! BUT, I did not try to reach a compromise here, James. When the Buddha said "seeing and knowing" the way the pancakkhandha or salayatana "really are", he meant truly seeing the realities through the 'Dhamma eye'. And such is the ability "to see past the surface appearance of concepts" as you put it, which was also what I meant above. [Again, it may sound like I am trying to reach a compromise with you here.] Thank you very much, James, for the discussion. I am satisfied that we are mostly in agreement. Respectfully and with warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - > > Hi Tep, > > You offered for anyone to butt in so I am going to take you up on your > offer. Really, I have debated these items many times in this group > but now I feel energetic and well-rested (having gotten my needed > medication for my sleeping disorder- and am back to meditating), and I > feel that maybe these issues are important to discuss again and again: > 45223 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 6:55am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Hope you had a good spring break, and that your ailments have eased. >> James: I often wonder what this "cloud of concepts" or "black curtain > of concepts" really means when people use it. I am guessing that this > is a term that K. Sujin originated since I heard her use it on one of > the tapes, and I have never come across it before in Buddhist > literature. What I wonder is does it relate to the tendency to mental > proliferation as taught by the Buddha, or does it relate to something > else? Ph: Actually, I think that was a mixed metaphor on my part. I've heard "ocean of concepts" and "black curtain of ignorance." Yes, I would say proliferation, at least for the first one. (It seems that ignorance is a paramattha dhamma, with its own characteristics, rather than just being the absence of understanding that I would have thought it to be.) Proliferation, this sea of concepts. Let me give you an example. The other day I walked in a park on a lovely spring day. I found myself looking at some brightly-coloured rubber balls being sold at a kiosk in the park. So I had already seen them, and liked them, before I became aware of looking at them. Fair enough. And then came the proliferation. I thought with happiness about kids' enjoying them - and then I deeply remembered how much I had loved balls like that, and that made me sad - I was getting old, etc. This brought to mind the sutta "one excellent night" (in Majhimma) in which the Buddha described the monk who gets lost in formations such as "I had form like that" or "I will have form like that" (and with the other khandas.) So just from having seen the balls, my mind was churning up pseudo-mudita, churning up sadness, churning up thinking about suttas, and maybe conditioning a little understanding as well. And that goes on all day, every minute that we're awake. So I guess we could think of this mental proliferation emerging like a cloud from our steaming noggins, forming this cloud of concepts that gets between us and realities. I think we can see soomething like that in the honeyball sutta, and in many other suttas. . >Does it mean that all concepts are bad or that just the > proliferation of concepts is bad? After all, even the Buddha used and > recognized concepts. Maybe if you explain what you mean by this > phrase and thinking I could more adequately respond? No, of course concepts are not bad. We will always live though concepts. But there is a sense of liberation when concepts are dropped. The stories are let go. Tonight I was walking home with Naomi, and we were both exhausted after long days at work. The Buddha's teaching came to mind, and in a flash I was able to intellectually understand the fatigue as nama and rupa. I let go of the story of tired Phil, and there was just nama and rupa. It was very liberating. Of course this was still thinking, still intellectual...but man, I love letting go of stories! WHen I think how I used to go through days stewing about what someone had said or done to hurt my feelings. So easy to drop now, thanks to Abhidhamma and suttas and reflection on them in daily life. > Phil: (Or, if you don't believe Abhidhamma is the Buddha's word, why > would it come to have been included in the Triple Basket? Our of the > intellectual greed of the Sangha? That sounds like a naughty view.) > > James: ;-)) Well, naughty or not, that is my view. I don't believe > the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma, to Sariputta or to the Devas of > Tusita Heaven or to anyone. All major evidence points to the > Abhidhamma being a much later development. I don't accuse the Sangha > of a conspiracy and cover-up, it think is more a matter of over- active > mental proliferations. Ph: Yes, like I said last time, I can see that there is a possibility of getting into Abhidhamma enough to increase the thinking without gaining penetrative/eradicating benefits. There is the danger. But there is danger in sitting down to meditate and not realizing it's all about lobha, comfort, self-pleasure as well. (Not that it is for you - but it was for me.) > James: I don't think that the Abhidhamma automatically leads to an > understanding of anatta. From my understanding, anatta is deeper than > just the interplay of dhammas. Understanding the Abhidhamma can lead > to a good understanding of annica (impermanence), but not necessarily > anatta. Ph: Well, again, to each his own. For me, the suttas lay out dukkha and annica quite clearly, but not anatta. I think of the common progression in SN of "Is what is impermanent suffering?" Yes my Lord" "And is it fitting to take what is impermanent and suffering as "This is mine, this I am, this is my self" "Not fitting my Lord." I never could get that last link. Nver convincing for me. To each his own. We all have different accumulated tendencies and ways of understanding. > Anatta can only be comprehended when the mind no longer > identifies anything as being "mine" or "his" or "hers" or "theirs", > etc. Phil, if you can honestly say that you no longer think in terms > of "mine", "his", "hers", "theirs", or even that you think less in > those terms, then you have a better understanding of anatta. But if > you still think in those terms, to the same extent as you thought > previously, then your understanding of anatta hasn't increased. Ph: Only sotappanas don't think in those terms, of course. But there are moments in which I see through, get a glimpse of the way things work. A quick glimpse to a shallow degree, but still enough to give me confidence. As I wrote above, I have found it so much easier to elt go of anger because I have come to sense that people are not to blame for what they do, that they are at the beck and call of conditions. > > Phil: Thanks for the warning, though. I know it comes from your > kindness. I will keep it in mind, no doubt, the way I do with many > things you say in your inimitable way! > > James: Just something to think about. I care for you and don't want > to see you suffer needlessly. Ph: James, I have some good news to report, and you to thank for it. I've started to write again, started connecting to my creative writing again. Obviously your post on that topic conditioned something to get me going. These days when I get up and have my first coffee, instead of reading suttas, I read some of my stories, some favourite stories, and this conditions some good writing for me. There is plenty of time for Dhamma study, Dhamma reflection during the day - everything is Dhamma, of course. But the stories will help people in a different way. So thanks. You're a good friend. > Phil: Well, I *was* impressed. It sounds like you have a sound > approach to Dhamma in daily life. > > James: Well, don't be too impressed. My dhamma practice isn't what it > should be lately; I don't meditate at all nowadays. I am having > medical problems which interfere with my practice: hypoglycemia and a > rare neurological disorder which disturbs my sleep (PLMD). I hope to > be getting my needed medication soon and so I will get back on track. > (How's that for personal information? ;-)) Ph: Sorry to hear that - I hope you're back on track soon. I've kept this short. I'm sleepy. And to be honest I'm loing interest in trying to convince you or anyone else about the benefits of Abhidhamma. To each his own, according to conditions. Metta, Phil p.s I was thinking it would be nice if you could visit us in Japan on some holiday. I told Naomi about the way you scolded me for being spaced ou and alienated from her, and she agreed! You will like her. 45224 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 7:29am Subject: Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 buddhistmedi... Dear Jon and all other DSG friends - Jon: > I hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) Tep: Thank you for taking time off your busy schedule to give valuable comments to my posts. You know, I have adopted the permanent "Please butt-in " policy. :-> :-> Jon: A classic example of the latter (i.e., a reference to samatha in a teaching given to monks who are already skilled in samatha) would be the Anapanasati Sutta, which you are considering in another thread. It is clear from the introductory part of that sutta that the monks are already developing anapanasati. In such cases, we should be careful about taking the sutta to mean that anyone who wishes to develop insight (from the beginning), should start with the development of anapanasati. Tep: That is an excellent point, Jon. I have an idea to propose to you: the 4-tetrad Anapanasati can bring the full benefits to those who already have the right view (samma-ditthi). I have no doubt (although I have no proof) that the monks who listened to the Anapanasati Discourse that day all had the right view. If you have time please visit the link below to find out why I think so. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/message/784 Jon: Where a sutta refers to 'concentration' in the context of the development of the path, it is of course only kusala concentration that is meant. While this may seem obvious, it is important to note, because concentration can be kusala or akusala, depending on the citta it accompanies. Tep: In DN 22 it states that in order to enter the first jhana the meditator must be "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities". All other suttas with emphasis on concentration also say the same about the 1st jhana. It follows that all the jhana states after that also must be supported by kusala too. Don't you think so? Jon: In summary, 'samadhi' sometimes refers to the concentration that accompanies samatha, and sometimes to the concentration that accompanies insight. We need to find out from the context or from the commentaries which of these is intended in the particular case. A similar thing applies as regards references to jhana. Sometimes it refers to the jhana that is the outcome of the development of samatha, and sometimes to the momentary concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness. The concentration that accompanies a moment of path consciousness is said to be of the intensity of jhana. Tep: That observation is very good --'samadhi' sometimes refers to the concentration that accompanies samatha, and sometimes to the concentration that accompanies insight. My opinion on the 4th jhana is that it was defined in 99% of the suttas with samma-ditthi and the other Path factors in mind. In MN 117 the term "noble right concentration" was used to mean exactly that <"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten".> It is always nice talking with you, Jon. Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > I hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) > > You have quoted a number of suttas that refer to concentration and/or > jhana. I'd like to make some general comments about concentration. > (snipped) > > I hope you find this useful. I'll try to make some comments on your > specific sutta quotes (trimmed for the purpose of this reply) in a > separate post. > > Jon > > Tep Sastri wrote: > > >Dear Nina and Sukinder - > > > >Intellectual understanding is necessary at the beginning when we > >study the Dhamma (pariyatti). However, it is a mistake to believe that 45225 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause buddhistmedi... Dear Friend Htoo ( Butting in is welcome!) I just asked the several questions in order to know how you precisely define concepts, real objects, etc. Thank you for answering me in full and unemotionally. I apologize for bugging you with these boring questions that have been asked over and over again. The answers you gave will go into my notebook. Respectfully yours, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Tep wrote: > > Dear Htoo: > > I asked you whether the body (32 parts + breaths) was real, and your > answer was as follows: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Tep. I think there seems to remain unsettled question. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > When you look for hair, teeth, you will not finally discover > anything that is hair. What you find as hair, teeth are in your mind. They are not first-hand object. And never can they be. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > > Are rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana not found in your mind? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Paramattha dhamma can come to you in both ways. One way is in the form of paramattha dhamma. Another way is in the form of pannatti. > When they come to you in the form of pannatti, they are not of your > first-hand object. > > If still not clear further explanations are ready for you and anyone > else. > > So rupa, citta, cetasikas and nibbana are found in my mind. They may be first-hand object or they may be later object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > > Are any of then "first-hand" object? Why? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > There are 7 ruupa that are 1st hand object. > > 1. sight > 2. sound > 3. smell > 4. taste > 5. hardness > 6. temperature > 7. pressure > > Citta can also be 1st hand object only after thorough and repeated > learning. So do cetasikas. > > Nibbana is only first hand object only when lokuttara cittas arise. > > All pannatti are constructions. > > Why? because 7 ruupas do serving as objects. As they are objects and ruupa they are 1st hand object. > > Citta can also be 1st hand through manodvarika cittas. Why because, it can serve as dhamma-arammana. So do cetasikas and nibbana. > > Pannatti is not first-hand object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > > Specifically, what about perception? Is perception real? Do you > discover perception as perception? How? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Perception (Sanna) is cetasika. If you are talking about 'perception' > that appears in conventional books, it may have different meanings. > > But sanna is real. So if you referred to sanna as perception, it is > real. > > You asked 'Do you discover perception as perception?' > > This is I think asking personal opinion. I do not need to answer this > question. > > But to generalize, anyone can discover perception (sanna) as > perception (sanna). > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Respectfully and with kind regards, > > Tep > > Your Dhamma friend > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Friends Always, > > Htoo Naing 45226 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 8:18am Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... htootintnaing Tep wrote: Hi, Friend Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It's a pleasure to discuss dhamma-things. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I am happy to respond to your message. We are, in general, in agreement with respect to the main issue. >T: ... is it correct to say that you and I (assuming that we don't have yathabhuta-nana-dassana) only know and see pannatti (or concepts) in every moment, because the true realities are too fast for us to catch them the moment they arise or fall away? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually we see realities. I agree with Howard. I will give comment after Howard's message. Everything is too fast to recognise. We do see realities. But we just accept concepts and the results of re- constructions or conceptualizations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: I don't think so. I have not been persuaded by the speed argument. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have agreed this above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard's: After all, what is observed is observed in the very mindstates that are "so quickly moving". It is not as if there is a "watcher" standing back and observing a rapid stream of mindstates; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If one thinks in 'that way' that someone is watching with bare attention then it is wrong idea. There is no one watching. The arisen cittas just knew what they have to know. So called 'we' do see realities. But 'we' do not recognise all realities in their virginities but what we accept are concepts and re-constructions of those data of realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard's: the mindstates themselves are the observational states! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How true!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Howard: I believe we are taken in by the magician-mind's creation of a world of concept due to fundamental avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: In any case, I do not think it is wrong to take pa~n~natti as objects of meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If vipassana, it is wrong. Because pannatti does not have any character and so there is no anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha marks on pannatti, which otherwise will help in development of vipassana panna. But if meditation is just samatha meditation, then it may well work for the meditator. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Howard: THAT IS WHERE THE DHAMMAS ARE! When the Buddha taught the Anapanasati Sutta, he directed us to put our attention on the breath, not on the experiential realities of touch sensation, warmth, coolness, moisture, etc that we actually experience when "attending to the breath". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: True. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Howard: Attending to the breath puts our attention where the action is. As we do so, eventually "breath" disappears, and what remains are dhammas.The seeing through the breath to the dhammas is a form of insight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good ideation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Howard: And then we see that these dhammas themselves are *radically* impermanent, without substance, and without own-being: dependent, inseparable, momentary waves in an experiential stream that makes the wildest sci-fi scenarios seem ordinary by comparison. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How true!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Is it fair to say that we don't have any choice except using concepts as the objects of our Satipatthana, or Anapanasat meditation, for now, until one day when yathabhuta-nana arises? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before answering fair or not, first we need to talk that satipatthaana do not take concept. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: After that moment, of course, all realities will be seen as realities, and no more concepts would apprear anymore. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Concepts are essential. Even The Buddha had been using concepts. He used concepts when He preached Dhamma. He taught Dhamma through concepts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: I would say that is correct. We begin where we are, not where we would hope to be. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Agree. We have to begin where we are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: BTW, I have long thought that the 4th foundation of mindfulness, dhammanupassana, is the stage of real mindfulness meditation and represents the advanced point at which concepts have been seen through and we are looking directly at realities, "face to face, and not as through a glass darkly". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All pabbas or all portions or all sessions (21 sessions) deal with real mindfulness. So kaayanupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa, vedanaanupassanaa, and dhammaanupassanaa all help seeing of realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I think you're right - this dhammanupassana stage of anapanasati is based on the four anupassanas: aniccanupassana, viraganupassana, nirodhanupassana, and patinissagganupassana. The power of the anupassana of this stage is supported by the strength of concentration that has been achieved throught the third stage (cittanupassana), when the yogi's mind is associated with "purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain". And such mind state supports arising of the lokuttara panna that can look at the realities "face to face, and not as through a glass darkly" -- as you put it. Thank you very much, Howard. Sincerely, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: On the contrary, concentration has to invlove in all stages. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: This is a reply post to Tep, who wrote the message. So 'Howard' is marked with '> Howard' to reveal that he is 3rd person while Tep and 'I' are discussing. 45227 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 8:28am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism htootintnaing Lisa wrote: Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and ritual sacrifices of animals. He did, integrate some rituals of his own into his teachings. The Buddha set up rituals that could act as aids or vehicles in the inner journey towards the discovery of one's own true nature, a raft to carry us to the other shore so to speak. I really do think that meditation, the study of sutra and learning the Abhidhamma are aids to help me break free of suffering but I don't want to go blindly into the study of Abhidhamma. Taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, a transformation, a initiation, taking and following the precepts and recitation of precepts, formative and transformative. Initiation and ritual an aid in letting go of old hurtful habits and conditioning and a tool to aid memory in establishing more healthful habit patterns for building a stable foundation to make that leap into the unknown? With Metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Lisa, Thanks you very much for posting this message of 'Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism'. I will reply piece by piece. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45228 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 7, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 5/7/05 11:19:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, htootintnaing@... writes: > Howard: In any case, I do not think it is wrong to take pa~n~natti as objects of meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If vipassana, it is wrong. Because pannatti does not have any character and so there is no anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha marks on pannatti, which otherwise will help in development of vipassana panna. But if meditation is just samatha meditation, then it may well work for the meditator. ======================== I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. Looking at pa~n~natti is for the purpose of looking at the right place and then seeing through concept to actualities. When we wish to observes bodily sensations, we turn attention to the body, and the body is concept-only. To examine the axle and wheels of a chariot, we attend to the chariot. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45229 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 8:44am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism htootintnaing Lisa wrote: Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and ritual sacrifices of animals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because they should have been criticized. For example, if there was a ritual that 'when a husband died, the wife had to jump into fire and die' is that ritual fair for that woman? The Buddha had great compassion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: He did, integrate some rituals of his own into his teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beautiful rituals ; beneficial rituals; profitable rituals should be integrated. But you have to define 'rituals' to clearly speak. Rituals of homage etc are in a way good thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: The Buddha set up rituals that could act as aids or vehicles in the inner journey towards the discovery of one's own true nature, a raft to carry us to the other shore so to speak. ---------- Htoo: Good writing. ---------------------------- Lisa: I really do think that meditation, the study of sutra and learning the Abhidhamma are aids to help me break free of suffering but I don't want to go blindly into the study of Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sutra is not Pali word. Sutta is a Pali word. Blindness is never good. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Plus categorical denial of ritual in Buddhism got me thinking; what is all that chanting, meditation, instruction, and study all about if not part of a system of teachings to unbind us from suffering? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These will depend on the way you understand them. Chanting? You have to define it. Citation is traditional bearing of teachings forwarded on next and next generations. Meditation? If right, it is a good thing. If instructed in wrong ways, it will not be much fruitful. Instruction? This will depend how deeply the instructors understand and realize and how the followers understand the instructions. Studying? This is requirement and it is essential. There is not a time that one should not study. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To be continued: Htoo-: 45230 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism 2 htootintnaing Part 2-: Lisa wrote: How does ritual play a part in understanding and transcendence? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This will depend on your definition of ritual. If teaching and learning are included, it plays a crucial part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Here are some of my questions about religion and religious study that I've asked myself over the years and still question all the time. And now I question why I want to study the Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Should question. It helps. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Why do I want to learn Abhidhamma and what is my motivation and why am I asking about ritual right now as I get into the study of Abhidhamma? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To understand what are right and what are wrong. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Rituals and Religious Activities are they aids to breaking the fetters that bind us to suffering? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If there are conditions, there will be break through even though one is following rituals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: What is ritual? What does it look like in a Buddhist context? Relic worships, chanting, reading of doctrine and sutra, meditation; what are the main components of ritual in general and in context to Dhamma and Buddhism? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please you define 'rituals'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Entering the Temple Shrine room, the ritualized leaving daily life in reverence of the sacredness of ritual space, triple prostration of honor before the Buddha image. Kneeling with palms pressed together before the heart and head, bowing full body to the floor head on the ground. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are conditions that help wholesome actions to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Monks and lay folk both do this depending on traditions. Lay folk also give reverence to monks and nuns in this manor. Chanting in Pali an ancient religious language of Gotama Buddha by both lay people and monks, blessings are given, discourses of the Buddha are listened too as the lay people sit lower than the Monks, usually on the floor with feet turned away from the Teacher Monk. Special housing, clothing, social rights to distance religious body from lay community…ritual plays a part in establishing authority? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They have their own rights. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Merit for both oneself and others through ritual acts and daily giving for a better life in the next rebirth are a large part of daily life for most native Buddhist. Theravada monks study and chant the Buddhist scriptures and perform ritual ceremonies for the lay public. The monks go on daily rounds of silent begging for alms, and the householders practice generosity by offering them food. Practice: Meditation, visualization, liturgy (collection of formulas and other texts), mantra and text recitation, image veneration, and initiation. Structure, elements and methods of the Abhidhamma, investigation into why it was established as important part of Buddhist doctrine. Theravada monks study and chant the Buddhist scriptures and perform ritual ceremonies for the lay public. The monks go on daily rounds of silent begging for alms, and the householders practice generosity by offering them food. Theravada ritual begins with three particular Pali chants. Buddha vandana, or Homage to the Buddha, is known also by its first two Pali words: Namo tassa. Ritual is work? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: All these that you have described will depend on how you define 'rituals'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Can we look without bias at tradition and ritual outside of our own culture? When establishing a new religion in our life how does bias affect our understanding of doctrine, practice and rituals? Aversion to creator gods, thoughtless ritual and ceremony, blind faith; does that color the way we see our new adopted religion or philosophy? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know 'learning new philosophy and religion'. But what you and others called Buddhism is not like a religion but it is solutions- providing-behaviour. Instead of searching God or other, try to search for oneself or yourself. Depending on your prefection of wisdom and other necessary elements for realization of suffering, the cause of suffering, cessation of suffrering, the way of wiping out of suffering you may see 'THE UNIVERSAL SOLUTION'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To be continued: Htoo Naing-: 45231 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism 3 htootintnaing Lisa wrote: I'm I wearing rose-colored glasses? What is the origin of our/my belief on ritual? Has the meaning of ritual changed over time? How do people who come to Buddhism and Abhidhamma let go of their old belief system of ritual so it will not color the long established ritual of the religious study of the Abhidhamma text and Buddhism? Can we really look at another religion outside of our own belief system without bias and use it for a tool to unbind from suffering? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Again, you need to define 'rituals'. As I said in the previous 2 posts, Buddhism is not like other religion, it is solutions-providing- behaviour. So it can be learned by anyone, any religion and any background. Even among Buddhists, there are a few true Buddhists. Those Buddhists who are still not true Buddhists also should learn to become true Buddhists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Rituals and privileged status, scholars and practitioners, how does intellectual powers give status to the study of Abhidhamma and Buddhism in general? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In general, the more intellectual, the more effectively people can study on Buddhism. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: How does tradition of those who are part of Buddhism and study Abhidhamma play a part in their actions and performance? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Once Abhidhamma is fully studied, one has deeper level of admiration on The Buddha, The Dhamma and The Sangha. And their actions and performances will be finer than before they study Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Where is wisdom located? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; Wisdom or panna is nama dhamma. It is not a physical matter. So it cannot be found anywhere physically. But as it is a nama dhamma, it is associated with citta or consciousness. Cittas have to depend on matters in 2 ways. One way is as their base or ground. Another way is not inevitable. Another way is by using matters as their objects. But when ruupa dhammas are not object, ruupa dhammas only involve as base or ground. So panna or wisdom is located at cittas. To be exact, panna or wisdom is located at 47 tihetuka cittas or triple-rooted consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Can the body know? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Never. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Is ritual empirically based? Does the body have to be involved for immediate,non-conceptual wisdom? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Define ritual. Meditation can be done naturally. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Does my use and understanding of the Pali language help or hinder letting go of conceptual grasping and ignorance of self? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: At least you will definitely need a language as medium. If you master that language and if insturctions, teachings etc are available in that language you do not need any Pali. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Is there self-aggrandizing power in knowing what few know? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pardon? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: What are the goals of understanding Nama and Rupa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you understand them, you will be able to trace their causes, their characteristics, manifestations, and then you will definitely lose illusion of 'identity' and this will lead to higher and higher understanding and finally till totally liberated from binding of craving and avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: What theoretical strategies, conceptual tools and analytical categories are used in the Abhidhamma and is this study ritualized reading? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Don't think so. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: What is the internal logic, teaching aid to be taken seriously or lightly? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha never said unbeneficial words. So all The Buddha words have to be taken seriously and never lightly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: How is Abhidhamma structured, what are it's basic components; metaphysical,phenomenal, political, psychological, status quo, what else? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know what you want. But abhidhamma is higher dhamma and not a simple one. But very useful one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To be continued: Htoo :- 45232 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:29am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism 4 htootintnaing Lisa wrote: What is the difference between reading religious text and reading daily text? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What is daily text? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Is reading doctrine like the sutra and Abhidhamma a way to transform or reveal, uncover what is sacred, a ritual act of transformation through understanding? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Your question is badly prepared. It is not a ritual act to read doctrine. Is it a way? It helps but not the direct way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Can reading not be reading and text not be text? What is the difference between ritualized reading and casual reading? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Define ritual reading. I never heard before. Define casual reading. I never heard before. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: The Five Precepts and taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is this an initiation ritual? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you believe these are rituals? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, a transformation, a initiation, taking and following the precepts and recitation of precepts, formative and transformative. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Unclear. I think you are asking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Initiation and ritual an aid in letting go of old hurtful habits and conditioning and a tool to aid memory in establishing more healthful habit patterns for building a stable foundation to make that leap into the unknown? With Metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think so. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45233 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:40am Subject: Re: Breathing Meditation Rob K part 1. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ======== Dear Htoo, I don't remember that section of the satipatthana sutta, I don't think he did. Robertk -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Robert K, I also do not think that The Buddha said in a specific way when he instructed in mahasatipatthaana. The Buddha did not say 'to focus on nose, mouth, lip, incoming air, outgoing air' etc etc. Equally The Buddha did not say 'to focus on rising and falling of abdomen'. What The Buddha said in aanaapaana pabba is 'Diigham vaa assasanto, diigham assassaamii'ti pajaanaami'. Idha bhikkhu_ the practitioner in The Buddha Sasana knows when he breathes in long as 'long' in detail. This is just a description. The typical bhikkhu does know that. Because he has well been instructed. If you follow the instruction, you will also know if you have practised enough. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45234 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:46am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing Htoo: But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. Jaananti means 'to know'. Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. Sukinder: Again, detail of what? Realities, or unrealities? ---------------------------------------------------- Metta, Sukinder -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Details of everything related to things that are in question. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45235 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:48am Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 5/7/05 11:19:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > Howard: In any case, I do not think it is wrong to take pa~n~natti > as objects of meditation. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > If vipassana, it is wrong. Because pannatti does not have any > character and so there is no anicca, dukkha, anatta, asubha marks on > pannatti, which otherwise will help in development of vipassana panna. > > But if meditation is just samatha meditation, then it may well work > for the meditator. > ======================== > I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. Looking at pa~n~natti is for the > purpose of looking at the right place and then seeing through concept to > actualities. When we wish to observes bodily sensations, we turn attention to the > body, and the body is concept-only. To examine the axle and wheels of a chariot, > we attend to the chariot. > > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- :-)) :-)) :-)) That is fine, Howard. Htoo Naing 45236 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread (347) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4-kamma or catu-catukka kamma. Depending on (a) their causative power or regenerative power or productive power There are 4 kamma. 1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive or abloishing kamma (b) their seniority of result-giving There are another set of 4 kamma 1. garuka kamma or heavy kamma 2. asanna kamma or frequenting kamma 3. acinna kamma or practised kamma or learned kamma 4. katattaa kamma or olden kamma (c) their timing of result-giving There are another set of 4 kamma 1. dittha-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma or visible-current-life-feeling kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma or next-life-result-giving kamma 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma or 2nd-next-life-till-end-of-samsara k 4. ahosi kamma or fruitless kamma (d) their placing of kamma-doers or depending on bhuumi or place for beings who did kamma There are another set of 4 kamma. They are 1. akusala kamma or unwholesome kamma 2. kaamaavacara kusala kamma or 'sensuous plane wholesome kamma' 3. rupaavacara kusala kamma or 'fine material plane wholesome kamma' 4. arupaavacara kusala kamma or 'non-material plane wholesome kamma'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45237 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 10:02am Subject: Gacchanto vaa gachaamiiti pajaanaati 2 htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Mahasatipatthaana sutta deals with 4 frames of reference or 4 foundations of mindfulness. 1. mindfulness on the body 2. mindfulness on feeling 3. mindfulness on consciousness 4. mindfulness on dhamma There are a total of 21 sessions. 14 sessions in kaayaanupassanaa or mindfulness on the body, 1 session in vedanaanupassanaa or mindfulness on feeling, 1 session in cittaanupassanaa or mindfulness on consciousness, 5 sessions in dhammaanupassanaa or mindfulness on dhamma. ----- 21 sessions The Buddha said, 'Idha bhikkhave bhikkhu gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati' in the 2nd part of kaayaanupassana or mindfulness on the body. 'Bhikkhave! O Monks!' 'Idha bhikkhu / In this sasana or teaching of mine, there is a bhikkhu or one who follows all my instructions' 'Gacchanto vaa / when he goes..' 'gacchaami iti / as going' 'pajaanaati / knows'. In this sasana there is a bhikkhu. When he goes he knows as he goes. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45238 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 10:04am Subject: Dhamma Thread (348) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 kamma or 'kamma catu-catukka'. Still there are other kamma. Depending on 'where kamma are done' or depending on 'door of kamma' or 'kamma-dvara' there are 3 kamma. They are 1. kaaya kamma or 'bodily actions or bodily kamma' 2. vacii kamma or 'verbal actions or verbal kamma' 3. mano kamma or 'mental actions or mental kamma' As these kamma are classified according to kamma-dvara, there is no mentioning on good or bad. If they have to be included, there will be 6 kamma. They are 1. akusala kaaya kamma 2. akusala vacii kamma 3. akusala mano kamma & 4. kusala kaaya kamma 5. kusala vacii kamma 6. kusala mano kamma May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45239 From: "Lisa" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism foamflowers > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Sutra is not Pali word. Sutta is a Pali word. Blindness is never good. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo, Thank you for dialoging with me, your questions remind me of Socrates and his dialoge with the wayward young men of Athens. Sometimes I feel like a very difficult wayward child and you are very patient and kind to me, thank you. First exploring the word Sutta and then on to ritual...Patience is needed right now, because I don't really understand ritual, that is why I wrote the paper. I would like to look at sutra or sutta first, Sanskrit and Pali; I like Pali better than Sanskrit because it's easier for me to remember the words for some reason. I do get them mixed up sometimes like Dharma and Dhamma. Sutta (Pali) Sutra (Sanskrit) Thank you for correcting me. I'm sitting at my kitchen table right now stringing beads made from Carnelian stone, lovely variegated swirls of orange colours and cool to the touch. They remind me of Monk's robes and their cool well disciplined minds, smooth to the touch. Sutta can mean string, and I use this string to bead a lovely design to wear around my neck or to give as a gift. Lovely beads of Dhamma strung on a strong red silk thread called sutta. Sutta: --pabuddha--awakened from sleep" referring to the awakening (entrance) in the deva—world.// That does sound like Jhana, entering into the deva world—nimitta's that come out to play and take me away from the sensual world of should of and should not and pretenses (this of course is pure speculation, I haven't touched Jhana in my research yet when it comes to the Abhidhamma doctrine) Sutta: a thread, string, for tanha, kala° a carpenter's measuring line, digha° with long thread.// The lovely necklace of red silk string, strung with carnelian stone flowers, a gift to the Buddha. Dana to give without conditions, just a string and some lovely beads, when I give this to you, the thread strung with beads; this thread, beads and giving are let go of and what you do with it is up to you. Sutta: the (discursive, narrational) part of the Buddhist Scriptures containing the suttas or dialogues, later called Sutta--pitaka (cp. Suttanta), an ancient verse, and quotations.// Words strung on a string of Dhamma... Sutta: A spiders thread, a woman spinner, jala a web of thread, a spider's web, bhikkha begging for thread, maya made of threads. // During a retreat I had a vision of one thread woven together over a fast expanse of dark empty space and golden beads strung out along the thread vibrating, a high pitched humming sound that never left even after the vision faded. Vibhanga classification of rules and that leads me to the word "ritual" and what I think is ritual, what I don't understand, and what I do understand when it comes to correct or right view and understanding of ritual. To be continued, I need to finish my necklace of carnelian beads and take a long walk with my boyfriend. It's a lovely spring day here in the state of Chicago, USA. With unconditioned kindness (metta), Lisa 45240 From: "Larry" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 10:46am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Does abhidhamma have anything to say about groups such as rupa > kalapas > > or the mental body with respect to these four features? Are groups > of > > realities (khandhas) considered to be real? > > > > Larry > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Larry, > > Kalapas are working units. So they are real and can be experienced. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, Is a kalapa an object of consciousness? Does it have characteristic, function manifestation and proximate cause? Larry 45241 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:00am Subject: Dhamma Thread (349) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 kamma or 'catu-catukka kamma'. 1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma are classification based on 'the power of kamma that have regenerative potentials'. 1. garuka kamma or heavy kamma 2. asanna kamma or frequenting kamma 3. acinna kamma or practised kamma or learned kamma 4. katattaa kamma or olden kamma are 2nd classification based on the seniority of kamma in terms of their weightage. 1. ditthia-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma or visible kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma or kamma fruits in the next life 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma or kamma fruits through out samsara starts from 2nd next life or 3rd life from the current one. 4. ahosi kamma or fruitless kamma are 3rd classification based on the timing of fruition of kamma. 1. akusala kamma or unwholesome kamma 2. kamavacara kusala kamma or sensuous-sphere wholesome kamma 3. rupavacara kusala kamma or fine material-sphere wholesome kamma 4. arupavacara kusala kamma or non-material-sphere wholesome kamma are 4th classification based on 'the place where kamma give as their effects. Again there are 3 kamma depending on the door where kamma are done. These 3 kamma are 1. kaaya kamma or bodily action 2. vacii kamma or verbal action 3. mano kamma or mental action But these 3 do not specify anything but just reveals where kamma are done as kamma-dvara or kamma-door. They may be akusala or kusala. So there are 3 akusala kamma. 1. akusala kaaya kamma 2. akusala vacii kamma 3. akusala mano kamma And there are 3 kusala kamma at the same kamma-dvara. They are 1. kusala kaaya kamma 2. kusala vacii kamma 3. kusala mano kamma Depending on the course of action or kamma-patha there are 10 akusala kamma and 10 kusala kamma. So there are 20 kamma. There are 3 akusala kaaya kamma & 3 kusala kaaya kamma, 4 akusala vacii kamma & 4 kusala vacii kamma and 3 akusala mano kamma & 3 kusala mano kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45242 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:12am Subject: Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: Dear Htoo, Thank you for dialoging with me, your questions remind me of Socrates Vibhanga classification of rules and that leads me to the word "ritual" and what I think is ritual, what I don't understand, and what I do understand when it comes to correct or right view and understanding of ritual. To be continued, I need to finish my necklace of carnelian beads and take a long walk with my boyfriend. It's a lovely spring day here in the state of Chicago, USA. With unconditioned kindness (metta), Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Lisa, You are a nice baby, my Mom. You have well researched for even a single Pali word. I am also not still good at Pali. I am not trying to be god at it. I just go for some basic and essential Pali words. There are about 100 words that frequently occur and if they are mastered, I think we can explore what The Buddha taught with more understanding. 500 words make more confidence. But we do not need as many as 80,000 Pali words. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45243 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:15am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Hi Htoo, Is a kalapa an object of consciousness? Does it have characteristic, function manifestation and proximate cause? Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, I think, I have said that Nina, Rob M etc are good at these 4 features of realities. They may answer your questions. What I think is that kalapa or aggregate itself has already been pannatti even though I have said it is basic working unit. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45244 From: "Larry" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:36am Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] lbidd2 Hi Tep, I would like to make a comment on concept and reality. K. Sujin writes, "Whenever one does not know the characteristics of citta, cetasika and rupa as paramattha-dhamma that arise and fall away in very rapid sequence, then there is knowledge of pannatti (concept/signification/name) or taking signs of rupa and nama, which arise and fall away in very rapid continuation as something." It seems to me that sanna simplifies experience into an abstract symbol (sign) in order to facilitate identification. In the case of visual perception the sign is most often a shape. However, whatever is signified also has a shape. The sign is a simplified shape, without much detail. The Buddha often uses the example of a cow that a man cuts into pieces as an example of satipatthana. What is happening though, is that the shape of the cow is being radically altered. A cow cannot be found among the pieces because the cow shape is gone. If there were a simple drawing with the cows parts outlined, the cow would still be there. Whether a cow is living or dead, simply a drawing, any colour or size, it is recognizable as a cow. But if someone erases the head and legs of the drawing, the cow is no more because the shape has been radically altered. So, shape is a quality of both the living cow and the sign of cow. But shape is not a reality. Why? Is the living cow not a reality because it has a shape? Larry 45245 From: "Larry" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:40am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. lbidd2 Hi Hasitupadda, I hope your tooth ache is better. I have never been able to distinguish between nama and rupa with respect to physical pain. Could you elaborate on your analysis of your experience a little more. Larry 45246 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:45am Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: It is nice to know that your health is improving. James: Thanks; I am happy about that also. But, surprisingly, I don't begrudge sickness either. The Buddha taught that we should always be mindful of how fragile the body is. Sickness is a good reminder of the fragile body. Tep: I understand how you feel, James. But "hot retorts" are not effective for two-way communication. James: LOL! Oh, Tep, how little you know about me. I am not always interested in `two-way communication'; it depends on who I am communicating with. Sometimes I know that the person I am communicating with has nothing or little to offer me. At that time, a 'hot retort' is the only way to knock some sense into their dull heads! ;-) Of course, I sense that this is antithetical to your 'diplomatic' approach. So be it. Tep: Yes, James, you're right that our Great Buddha used concepts all the time, but the 4 "realities" (rupa, citta, cetasikas, Nibbana) are also found everywhere in the suttas. James: This is a stretch. Tell me some suttas where the terms: rupa, citta, or cetasika are used and I will buy into this `compromise' position. Tep: I believe we can get to know everything about the key Dhammas the Buddha taught (the Bodhipakkhiya) by using a subset of less than 10 suttas. James: The Bodhipakkhiya has little to do with `dhammas'. You would need to explain what you mean here. From my research, there is a specific meaning to Bodhipakkhiya (see below*) which is unrelated to Abhidhamma dhammas. Tep: Shame on me, James! I have been called "diplomatic" often and I do understand why. James: LOL! What a diplomatic response!! ;-)) Tep: Of course, no diplomats can succeed without compromising. It is also very useful in any negotiation too! James: I don't wish to compromise or negotiate the dhamma. That is just the way I am. No compromise here! ;-)) Tep: BUT, I did not try to reach a compromise here, James. When the Buddha said "seeing and knowing" the way the pancakkhandha or salayatana "really are", he meant truly seeing the realities through the 'Dhamma eye'. And such is the ability "to see past the surface appearance of concepts" as you put it, which was also what I meant above. [Again, it may sound like I am trying to reach a compromise with you here.] James: Yes, you are trying to reach such a compromise that I can't even follow what you are trying to say anymore. What does Tep believe; regardless of anyone else?? Answer me that and we can have a straightforward conversation. Metta, James *bodhipakkhiya-dhammá The 37 'things pertaining to enlightenment', or 'requisites of enlightenment' comprise the entire doctrines of the Buddha. They are: • the 4 foundations of mindfulness (satipatthána, q.v.), • the 4 right efforts (s. padhána), • the 4 roads to power (iddhi-páda, q.v.), • the 5 spiritual faculties (indriya; s. bala), • the 5 spiritual powers (bala, q.v.), • the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga), • the Noble 8-fold Path (s. magga). In M.77 all the 37 bodhipakkhiya-dhammá are enumerated and explained though not called by that name. A detailed explanation of them is given in Vis.M. XXII. In S.XLVII, 51, 67, only the five spiritual faculties (indriya) are called bodhipakkhiya-dhammá; and in the Jhána-Vibhanga, only the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga). See The Requisites of Enlightenment, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 169/172). 45247 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread (350) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 kamma or 'catu-catukka kamma'. 1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma are classification based on 'the functions of kamma that have regenerative potentials'. 1. garuka kamma or heavy kamma 2. asanna kamma or frequenting kamma 3. acinna kamma or practised kamma or learned kamma 4. katattaa kamma or olden kamma are 2nd classification based on the seniority of kamma in terms of their weightage. 1. ditthia-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma or visible kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma or kamma fruits in the next life 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma or kamma fruits through out samsara starts from 2nd next life or 3rd life from the current one. 4. ahosi kamma or fruitless kamma are 3rd classification based on the timing of fruition of kamma. 1. akusala kamma or unwholesome kamma 2. kamavacara kusala kamma or sensuous-sphere wholesome kamma 3. rupavacara kusala kamma or fine material-sphere wholesome kamma 4. arupavacara kusala kamma or non-material-sphere wholesome kamma are 4th classification based on 'the place where kamma give as their effects. Again there are 3 kamma depending on the door where kamma are done. These 3 kamma are 1. kaaya kamma or bodily action 2. vacii kamma or verbal action 3. mano kamma or mental action Kaaya kamma are actions done at kaaya-dvara or acts through body. This is reflected as 'kaaya vinatti rupa'. Kaaya vinatti rupas are gesture. They are like 'behavioural actions revealing different body positions of bending or stretching arms, legs etc with weapons or poison or the offerable or robe or food etc etc. That is why kaaya kamma manifests as kaaya vinatti rupas. These vinatti rupas are cittaja rupas or 'mind-generated rupas'. These mind are 'akusala cittas accompanied by dosa cetasikas in case of killing' or 'mahakusala cittas accompanied by saddha in case of offerings etc. 3 akusala kaaya kamma are 1. killing 2. stealing 3. wrong-practising of sex May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45248 From: "Larry" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 11:59am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > Is a kalapa an object of consciousness? Does it have characteristic, > function manifestation and proximate cause? > > Larry > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > Dear Larry, > > I think, I have said that Nina, Rob M etc are good at these 4 > features > of realities. They may answer your questions. > > What I think is that kalapa or aggregate itself has already been > pannatti even though I have said it is basic working unit. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, Okay, if kalapa is a concept is contact a concept? I am talking here not of the contact cetasika but of the coming together of three realities, sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. Is consciousness cognizing an object a concept? In all of these cases we have two or more realities together. The Buddha talks about khandha a lot. "Khandha" means group. "Sankhara" can mean to form into a group. What is going on here? One dhamma is real; two dhammas is concept???? Larry 45249 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Hi Htoo, Okay, if kalapa is a concept is contact a concept? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Both. Pannatti and paramattha dhamma. If you think of word it is pannatti. If you think of characteristic it is paramattha dhamma. Contact is phassa. :-)) beforehand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: I am talking here not of the contact cetasika but of the coming together of three realities, sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That coming together of three is phassa or contact and it is a cetasika even though you are denying you are not saying cetasika contact. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Is consciousness cognizing an object a concept? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear about your question. Are you asking 'Can consciousness cognize an object which is a concept? If the question is confirmed, it can. If not confirmed what is your question? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: In all of these cases we have two or more realities together. The Buddha talks about khandha a lot. "Khandha" means group. "Sankhara" can mean to form into a group. What is going on here? One dhamma is real; two dhammas is concept???? Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1. visual object ruupa 2. sense-door ruupa eye 3. eye-consciousness 4. contact These arise together. All are not concept. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45250 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - Thank you for the initiative to open a dialogue on concepts and reality. L: So, shape is a quality of both the living cow and the sign of cow. But shape is not a reality. Why? Is the living cow not a reality because it has a shape? T: No. Both dead cow and living cow are concepts not because of their shape, but because the mind depends on sanna to "facilitates description and identification". Not just shape but also color are the characteristics for recognizing a cow - a dead cow, a living one, a picture of it, or even a drawing of it. We know from reading Acharn Sujin's e-book that a concept does not exhibit the characteristics of rapid arising and disappearing, but an ultimate reality like sanna does. How do you see a reality as a reality, not seeing and knowing concepts? Say, right now in this very moment, a cow is walking along... How are you supposed to see a rupa in the cow? If you sense a sanna of a past cow arising that moment, is that realizing the sanna "the correct way" according to Abhidhamma? Or, would you contemplate the 4 mahabhuta-dhatu making up the cow as being impermanent and anatta ? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > I would like to make a comment on concept and reality. K. Sujin > writes, "Whenever one does not know the characteristics of citta, > cetasika and rupa as paramattha-dhamma that arise and fall away in > very rapid sequence, then there is knowledge of pannatti > (concept/signification/name) or taking signs of rupa and nama, which > arise and fall away in very rapid continuation as something." > > It seems to me that sanna simplifies experience into an abstract > symbol (sign) in order to facilitate identification. In the case of > visual perception the sign is most often a shape. However, whatever > is signified also has a shape. The sign is a simplified shape, > without much detail. > > The Buddha often uses the example of a cow that a man cuts into > pieces as an example of satipatthana. What is happening though, is > that the shape of the cow is being radically altered. A cow cannot be > found among the pieces because the cow shape is gone. If there were a > simple drawing with the cows parts outlined, the cow would still be > there. Whether a cow is living or dead, simply a drawing, any colour > or size, it is recognizable as a cow. But if someone erases the head > and legs of the drawing, the cow is no more because the shape has > been radically altered. > (snipped) > Larry 45251 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:33pm Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) buddhatrue Hi Phil: Phil: Hope you had a good spring break, and that your ailments have eased. James: Yes and yes. Thanks for asking. Phil: (It seems that ignorance is a paramattha dhamma, with its own characteristics, rather than just being the absence of understanding that I would have thought it to be.) James: You would have to explain more what you mean here. Ignorance takes many forms and I don't understand how it could be seen as a paramattha dhamma. The Buddha taught that the mind is luminous and it is the defilements which block the luminosity of the mind. Phil: Proliferation, this sea of concepts. James: So, if by `sea of concepts' K. Sujin means mental proliferation, I have no disagreement with her. However, it is a rather unfortunate metaphor because it implies that the concepts somehow arise 'outside of oneself', while in actuality the proliferation of concepts is and feeds the false sense of `self'. Phil: Let me give you an example. The other day I walked in a park on a lovely spring day. I found myself looking at some brightly-coloured rubber balls being sold at a kiosk in the park. So I had already seen them, and liked them, before I became aware of looking at them. Fair enough. And then came the proliferation. I thought with happiness about kids' enjoying them - and then I deeply remembered how much I had loved balls like that, and that made me sad - I was getting old, etc. This brought to mind the sutta "one excellent night" (in Majhimma) in which the Buddha described the monk who gets lost in formations such as "I had form like that" or "I will have form like that" (and with the other khandas.) So just from having seen the balls, my mind was churning up pseudo-mudita, churning up sadness, churning up thinking about suttas, and maybe conditioning a little understanding as well. And that goes on all day, every minute that we're awake. James: Thanks for this wonderful illustration. Wow, you do get carried away with thoughts! However, the good thing is that you are able to trace the thoughts and follow them (the sign of a creative writer), which will hopefully lessen the proliferation in the future. Meditation could help in this regard. Phil: But there is danger in sitting down to meditate and not realizing it's all about lobha, comfort, self-pleasure as well. (Not that it is for you - but it was for me.) James: Then you need to examine what your motivations were at the time and readjust your practice. Meditation isn't harmful just because you approached it in a harmful way. There is no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. (And no, my meditation isn't about lobha, comfort, and self-pleasure! You make it sound like watching a porno movie! LOL! ;-)) Phil: Well, again, to each his own. For me, the suttas lay out dukkha and annica quite clearly, but not anatta. I think of the common progression in SN of "Is what is impermanent suffering?" Yes my Lord" "And is it fitting to take what is impermanent and suffering as "This is mine, this I am, this is my self" "Not fitting my Lord." I never could get that last link. Nver convincing for me. James: That is what I am telling you! You must meditate to get that last link! Phil: James, I have some good news to report, and you to thank for it. I've started to write again, started connecting to my creative writing again. Obviously your post on that topic conditioned something to get me going. These days when I get up and have my first coffee, instead of reading suttas, I read some of my stories, some favourite stories, and this conditions some good writing for me. James: Good. I would just suggest you combine the dhamma with your writing ability- in that way you will reach more people. And the dhamma isn't all about rainbows and sunshine, it is also about confronting conflicts/problems and overcoming them with wisdom. That can make some good stories! ;-) Phil: And to be honest I'm loing interest in trying to convince you or anyone else about the benefits of Abhidhamma. To each his own, according to conditions. James: That's fine. We can end this discussion if you would like. It has already somewhat reached its logical conclusion. Phil: I was thinking it would be nice if you could visit us in Japan on some holiday. I told Naomi about the way you scolded me for being spaced ou and alienated from her, and she agreed! You will like her. James: I'm sure I would like her. I can see that she has a lot of compassion and understanding. You are quite lucky. Maybe I will come to visit you both someday. I would like to see Japan. Metta, James 45252 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 0:50pm Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhistmedi... Hi, James - Boy, how rapidly we got into a hand-to-hand combat! James: Sometimes I know that the person I am communicating with has nothing or little to offer me. At that time, a 'hot retort' is the only way to knock some sense into their dull heads! ;-) James: Yes, you are trying to reach such a compromise that I can't even follow what you are trying to say anymore. What does Tep believe; regardless of anyone else?? Answer me that and we can have a straightforward conversation. Tep: Maybe it is not worth it to continue our dialogue, James. I am very afraid that my "dull head" would get knocked off! Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > 45253 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Thank you Larry? The pain is not gone. I will write when I am better. Pain is the rupa and knowing it or being aware of it the nama. That is in short. with metta, Hasituppada __________________________________________________________ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Hi Hasitupadda, > > I hope your tooth ache is better. I have never been able to distinguish > between nama and rupa with respect to physical pain. Could you > elaborate on your analysis of your experience a little more. > > Larry 45254 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 2:49pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau Hi Hasituppada, ------------------------------- H: > You say in a reply to Tep, ".......then know thereis ignorance because the only way to have respect for the Buddha isto understand the present reality, whatever it is." I have neither the lower panna nor the higher panna. Could you please, explain to me what is "the PRESENT REALITY" ? ------------------- Thanks for the question. I will do my best, but it is a big assignment: as I understand it, the whole purpose of the Dhamma was to explain the present reality, and the Buddha spent the last forty- five years of his life doing just that. Without the Dhamma, all views of ultimate reality would be wrong views, classifiable into two kinds. Firstly, there is the eternalist view, which says the doer of the deeds and the experiencer of the results of the deeds are one and the same. Secondly, there is the annihilationist view, which says death will prevent the doer from experiencing the results of his deeds. Under the influence of the first view, beings strive for release from suffering, while, under the influence of the second view, beings do nothing; believing release will come to them regardless. As we now know, the truth lies in neither of the extremes and release comes, "not from striving, and not from standing still." (Samyutta Nikaya I.1) It comes purely from understanding the present reality. There can be no other way: the past no longer exists, and the future had never existed: there is only the present moment. As I was saying, all of the Buddha's discourses were aimed at describing the realities of the present moment so that we could know them for ourselves. I think the Abhidhamma is essential knowledge right from the start. It explains how the present moment can be known. Otherwise, there would be a contradiction in terms: if the reality is that we don't know, how could we know that we don't know? Ken H 45255 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 8:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Hi Ken, ***************** C: > In the first paragraph, what do you mean by "the physical bases of contact"? do you mean the sense organs? ----------------------- K: > Sense organs (eyes, ears, tongues, etc.) are not paramattha dhammas: they are concepts. Concepts are creations of the thinking mind. Sense bases are paramattha dhammas that perform the functions we conventionally attribute to sense organs. They arise and fall away in just one moment of consciousness (less than a billionth of a second). .......................................... What do you mean by "... paramattha dhammas that perform the functions we conventionally attribute to sense organs."? 1. paramattha dhammas 2. the functions we conventionally attribute to sense organs 3. and what are you saying about the sense organs (they are not real)? ***************************************** C: > So, what are non absolute realties, and what is not real? -------------------------------------------- K: > Anything that is not a paramattha dhamma is not real - it is just a concept. You can have a concept of something that is real (e.g., the actual words "paramattha-dhamma" "nama" "rupa" "citta" are concepts) or you can have a concept of something that is not absolutely real (e.g., man, woman, tree, table, flying purple elephant). ................................................. Maybe you should define or explain what is a paramattha dhamma. *********************************************** KH: > > At any one moment in time there is one citta and a small number of cetasikas plus one or more rupas, and that is our entire world. The Buddhist practice is to directly know one of those namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment. When we do that, we know the world as it truly is and we lose our attachment and infatuation for it. ------------------------------------------------------ C: > How is knowing one of the namas or rupas, as it exists in the present moment, a way to lose attachment and infatuation for it? ---------------------------------------------------- K: > Because you see that it is just a mental or physical phenomenon that is dependent on conditions, that is extremely short lived and that is devoid of any self or entity. In that way, you know from your own direct experience that attachment to such an unsatisfactory thing would be pointless and could only lead to suffering. ..................................................... Ok. I usually try to see everything as having a nature that is complex, impermanent, and uncontrollable; and because of that, everything is a source of suffering when we crave the nature to be otherwise. It does not matter to e whether it is a nama or rupa. I know that all the objects of my desire have that nature. When desire arises and turns into clinging, and clinging to suffering, I understand the nature of my of my suffering. ***************************************** C: > I can see that I am getting old, it is too easy for me to get lost in trying to remember all the definitions so that I could understand what is being said. ----------------------------------- K:> I am a good deal older than you, and I can tell you that it is not age that makes it hard to remember Abhidhamma terminology: it is simply that we don't appreciate the difference between concepts and realities. When we really appreciate that there are only dhammas we become genuinely interested in them, and remembering their names and definitions becomes second nature. .......................................................................... May be you are right. People here tell me that I can't speak Danish because I am lazy or don't really care. I do wish there was a pill I could take because I have been trying to learn this language and culture since 1994 (over 10 years). How old are you ? ************************************ KH: > An ordinary person who is untrained in the Dhamma can know about faith, doubt, harmlessness, hatred and other aspects of everyday life, but he does not know them as they truly are. In the absolute reality taught by the Buddha, there are phenomena with the same general description as certain every-day concepts, but which have their own absolute existence - independent of any person who might think about them. ........................................... I can't seem to see the helpfulness in knowing these concepts as they truly are. ******************************************************** C: > It is interesting, after reading this post I am starting to realize that the Abidharma focuses on trying to the reader a view (i.e., wisdom) of the world, and from this view, the rest should fall into place. --------------------------------------------------------- K: > Yes, indeed. The world is just the small number of namas and rupas that have arisen in the present moment. Anything else is concept. Concepts can seem to be very, very real, but they are just illusions created by realities. -------------------------- C: > For this view to work, morality and concentration would have to be inherent to the wisdom, or they would have to be preconditions/prerequisites. ------------------------- K: > Exactly! The paramattha dhamma known as wisdom has the inherent quality of being morally wholesome (kusala). It relies on (and arises with) the right kind of concentration, and the right kind of concentration relies on it. But, of the two, wisdom (right understanding) is the forerunner. ........................................................................ My problem with this idea is that I don't think the Buddha thought that way. If he did, the 8 fold path would have just one fold -- wisdom, he would have stated wisdom alone is the way. ************************************** KH: > > As conditioned realities (conditioned paramattha dhammas), they arise, perform their functions and desist in the shortest possible period of time. And so they cannot possibly be directly known to anyone who is not extremely well trained in the Dhamma. That is why the way to enlightenment is in learning about paramattha dhammas and understanding how they exist here and now. ....................... C: > I hope you realize that this is just one of the paths to enlightenment? ------------------------------------------- K: > There we disagree. I am sure that satipatthana - right understanding of conditioned dhammas - is the only way taught by the Buddha. .................................................................. Do you believe that before the Buddha became enlightened, he knew the paramattha dhammas and understood how they exist? If so, why wasn't this the lesson of the first sermon? ----- Original Message ----- From: kenhowardau To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 04 May, 2005 13:23 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 45256 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Mike, and thanks, That is why I keep practicing even though I am not a monk and have no desire to be. However, I do live in samsara and consider it part of the scheme to bring about enlightenment -- definitely not a monks path. CharlesD PS: for me, the key is insight into Desire, not so much the things or dharmas ----- Original Message ----- From: mnease To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 02 May, 2005 05:51 Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Hi Charles, Nice to hear from you-- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2005 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > Hi mike, very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating > absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. Agreed on both counts, Charles--and when the conditions are (or were) present I think this is (or was) the ideal situation. A cursory search of 'pabbajjaa' will bear this out, I think. > And by the way, I should emphases that not > every Buddhist believes this. No indeed, the suttas tell of many laypeople attaining the various paths and some Buddhists acknowledge this. Whether either or both of these ways are available today is a matter of opinion to be sure. What is clear from all the texts, I think, is that with or without jhaana or ordination, insight into present dhammas is the key. mike 45257 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi, This sounds like a good practice to me: "...Whenever ... a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." I am sorry DSG backupers, it was worth repeating. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 02 May, 2005 01:23 Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Charles DaCosta: > very good questions; however some Buddhist believe you have to be a bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight to reach enlightenment. And by the way, I should emphases that not every Buddhist believes this. mike:> Can you cite from the discourses examples of the Buddha instructing laypeople in the same way that he instructed bhikkhus cultivating absorption as a basis for insight? If so, I think this would be very helpful to our discussion. ........................................................................................................ ... the Buddha did teach laypeople to practice the jhanas: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion": Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One.The Blessed One then said to them: "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) Thus should you train yourselves." When he heard this, the Venerable Sariputta said to the Blessed One: "It is wonderful, Lord! It is marvelous, Lord! How well spoken was that statement of the Blessed One. Whenever, Lord, a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him: (1) Whatever pain and grief there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (2) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with sensual desire does not exist on that occasion; (3) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion: (4) whatever pleasure and joy there is connected with the unwholesome does not exist on that occasion; (5) whatever pain and grief there is connected with the wholesome does not exist on that occasion. Whenever a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, on that occasion these five things come to him." "Good, good, Sariputta!" (The Buddha then repeats the Venerable Sariputta's words in full.) Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. James: I don't wish to get into an extended debate on this matter, but I thought I would offer the sutta quotation since it was requested. Metta, James 45258 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 7, 2005 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause jonoabb Hi Htoo Hope you don't mind me butting in here. htootintnaing wrote: >Thanks. Now I am clear. Pannatti is not real. So it does not have any >of 4 features, I think. Nibbana is a special case. > >But I would like to ask you. > >Does pannatti not have a function? > > Just a suggestion, but rather than saying, 'Pannatti is not real', you might find it more helpful to think in terms of, 'Whatever is not real (dhamma) can be called pannatti (a concept)'. It's not a question of 'There are dhammas and then there are pannatti', since that is to attribute a degree of reality to 'the pannatti'. (It could be for this reason that we do not find mention of 'pannatti' in the suttas. Even the 'Whatever ...' formulation could be construed as imputing a degree of reality to pannatti, if one wanted to argue that.) Jon 45259 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 7, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Htoo: 1. visual object ruupa 2. sense-door ruupa eye 3. eye-consciousness 4. contact These arise together. All are not concept. Hi Htoo, If all 4 _together_ are realities then you have 4 realities that are the object of one consciousness. Same as kalapa. How can that be? Larry 45260 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 7, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Shape of a cow/Tep lbidd2 Hi Tep, Let's look at it like this. Is the shape of the sign of a cow the object of a single consciousness? If, looking at your own experience of the sign of a cow, it takes more than one consciousness to cognize the shape, then shape is not a concept, because concept is an object of consciousness. Additionally, this sign is not a concept for the same reason. On the other hand, the shape of a living cow obviously requires many consciousnesses to cognize it. Therefore this shape is definitely neither concept nor reality. What is it? Larry 45261 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 5:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Charles and all > This sounds like a good practice to me: > > "...Whenever ... a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, If I'm not mistaken, being a "noble disciple" refers to more than being devoted to Dhamma. It refers to a certain degree of enlightenment.In Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes to Samyutta Nikaya, I'm quite sure he said as much. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. > "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, > almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of > sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. > Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we > enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) > Thus should you train yourselves." If I'm not wrong about the above, this means that people should train themselves by becoming noble disciples. Not as easy as one might assume! I have a feeling this is where we run into trouble when we are attracted to practices taught in suttas. For example, in Satippathana sutta the opening condition "having put away covetousness and grief for the world" that must be achieved, as BB puts it, "for the practice to succeed" - how can we who live in the modern world claim so easily to have "put away covetnousness and grief for the world" when we sit down and plunge into our meditation? I remember reading one of the famous introduction guides to meditation - "Mindfulness in Plain English" I think, in which it was taught that a kind of warm-up exercise should be done to deal with hindrances *before* meditating, in order to satisfy the "put away grief and covetousness" above. As though thinking about metta for 5 minutes could do that! That goes against the anatta sutta, thinking that there is a self that can choose to have the khandas in this way or that. I suspect that for laypeople who have busy lives in the sensation drenched modern world, attempting to cut that off and behave like monks is just an exercise in self-enjoyment disguised as liberation - so subtly disguised that they themselves often don't know that it's going on. Stress on I "suspect" - I have no way of knowing what is really going on in people's minds. (There may be sour grapes at work here because my living circumstances do not allow for formal meditation?) If I am wrong about "noble disciple" being more than just someone who is devoted to the Buddha's teaching, please correct me. Metta, Phil 45262 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 7, 2005 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. lbidd2 Hasituppada: "The pain is not gone. I will write when I am better. Pain is the rupa and knowing it or being aware of it the nama. That is in short." Hi Hasituppada, I'm sure you know there are medications for tooth ache that you can get at a pharmacy without a doctor. That aside, pain isn't rupa. Pain is feeling. In this case I think the rupa would be hardness or tension but it is very difficult to distinguish that from pain. Awareness is probably attention cetasika. Just a guess. Larry 45263 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 7, 2005 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... lbidd2 Howard: "I have not been persuaded by the speed argument. After all, what is observed is observed in the very mindstates that are "so quickly moving". It is not as if there is a "watcher" standing back and observing a rapid stream of mindstates; the mindstates themselves are the observational states!" Hi Howard, This raises an interesting question: what is happening when something is moving too fast to see it? Why don't we see it, or why do we see a distortion of it, like the spokes of a moving wheel? Consciousness cognizes the most minute conscious moment but "I" only see the big picture. Larry 45264 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 7, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/7/05 9:50:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, This raises an interesting question: what is happening when something is moving too fast to see it? Why don't we see it, or why do we see a distortion of it, like the spokes of a moving wheel? Consciousness cognizes the most minute conscious moment but "I" only see the big picture. Larry ========================= What sort of "something is moving too fast to see"? You are presuming some conventional object "out there" in "the external world". That is - you are talking concept, not reality. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45265 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 7, 2005 9:21pm Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: Boy, how rapidly we got into a hand-to-hand combat! James: Huh? Just because I question a few of your points it's now `hand-to-hand' combat?? Don't you think you are exaggerating a bit? Especially since this is the Internet and I haven't laid one hand on you (and never would). As a Buddhist, I don't believe in violence. Tep: Maybe it is not worth it to continue our dialogue, James. I am very afraid that my "dull head" would get knocked off! James: Oh brother! Okay, whatever, suit yourself. Metta, James 45266 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 8, 2005 0:51am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 187 - Enthusiasm/piiti (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Píti does not arise with dosa-múla-citta. When dosa-múla-citta arises, the citta dislikes the object and then there cannot be at the same time a pleasurable interest. Píti does not arise either with moha-múla-citta; at the moment of moha-múla-citta there is no enthusiasm. As regards ahetuka cittas(2), only the two types which are accompanied by pleasant feeling arise with píti: one type of santíraùa-citta which is kusala vipåka and investigates an extraordinarily pleasant object(3) and the hasituppåda-citta, the smile-producing consciousness of the arahat(4). When there is seeing, which is one of the dvi-pañcaviññåùas (sense-cognitions), there is no delight or enthusiasm about visible object, seeing merely sees it. If visible object is an extraordinarily pleasant object, the santíraùa-citta in that process which investigates visible object is accompanied by pleasant feeling and píti. The javana-cittas of that process may or may not be accompanied by píti. If they are accompanied by pleasant feeling they are also accompanied by píti. *** 2) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 8 and 9. There are eighteen types of ahetuka cittas, cittas without akusala hetus or sobhana hetus, “roots”. They are the sense-door-adverting-consciousness, the “five pairs” of sense-cognitions (seeing, hearing, etc.), two types of receiving-consciousness, three types of investigating-consciousness, the mind-door-adverting-consciousness and the smile-producing consciousness of the arahat. 3) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 13. 4) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 9. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45267 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Larry, Thank you it is very kind of you to inquire. I am taking some sort of pain killer the effect of which lasts only about four hours ! Any way it is part of sansaric suffering....... I am not conversant with Abhidhamma terminology. From what I have learnt Rupa are not necessarily hard things: all forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. Htoo may perhaps give appropriate elaboration. with metta, Hasituppada 45268 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 8, 2005 1:16am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. jonoabb Hi Hasituppada I join Larry in wishing you relief from the pain hasituppada wrote: >Thank you Larry? > >The pain is not gone. I will write when I am better. Pain is the >rupa and knowing it or being aware of it the nama. That is in short. > >with metta, >Hasituppada > > To supplement Larry's reply a little, a study of the Abhidhamma helps us to understand (at an intellectual level) that what we know conventionally as tooth-ache is likely to be, in terms of dhammas: (a) the experience through the body-door of certain unpleasant instances of hardness, heat and pressure, accompanied by painful (bodily) feeling, and (b) subsequent (akusala) mind-door moments of dosa-rooted consciousness accompanied by unpleasant feeling. We probably confuse these 2 different sets of dhammas. Are we able to distinguish the painful bodily feeling from the aversion and its accompanying unpleasant feeling? And in between the moments of 'tooth-ache', there are also other dhammas arising as usual, including the experiences through the other sense-doors and the thinking that follows that experiencing. So there is never *only toothache*, even though it may seem like that at times! Hope you're feeling better. Jon 45269 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 1:59am Subject: Asubha kammatthaana htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, What the asubha kammatthaana practitioner first sees as the object of asubha kammatthaana is visual object in front of his or her eyes. But what he or she is developing is just name or pannatti. This initial object is 'dead body of so and so form'. This is initiation of asubha kammatthaana and this object is called parikamma nimitta as it is a preparatory sign of asubha kammatthaana. When the practitioner becomes able to recognise the whole picture in his or her mind and it appears exactly as if it is seen by the eyes, that new object in the mind is called uggaha nimitta or mental image. At a time, when mature, there arise another image and it is called counter image or patibhaaga nimitta. This sign is also a form that is similar to initial object and mental object that it is something like a form of a person. But that appears in the mind as patibhaaga nimitta is free of staining, tethering, bleeding, disintegration etc. When this appears, it is said that the practitioner is said to have the stage of upacaara samadhi or proximate concentration. As this new object, patibhaaga nimitta is free of ugly markers, it is strongly advisable that the practitioners do not have to practise on the dead body of opposite sex. Otherwise, at this stage of patibhaaga nimitta, the attraction may arise and then jhaana will be destroyed. When this new sign arises and there are 5 jhana factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata there is no trace of hindrances of sensuous thinking, aversive thinking, sloth-torpored thinking, spreading-worrying thinking and suspicious thinking. This stage is upacaara samaadhi. When the mind suddenly absorbed into that object and there is complete stillness, then that stage is said to be appanaa samaadhi or appanaa jhaana or 1st ruupa jhaana. As the kammatthaana is asubha, this jhaana is said to be 1st jhaana arises from asubha kammatthaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45270 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:15am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada hasituppada Dear KenH, Thank you very much for your taking time to explain. We know that there is not the past nor the future but only the present moment. But from what I understand from the teachings in the Sutta is, that there is more to it than knowing the present reality to escape from the suffering in samsra. It is the mind that is causing all our problems, because : Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind one speaks or acts, suffering follows one like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. (Dhammapada) The mind is going a long journey, in that journey it has collected so much of habits, which are good , which are bad and which are neutral. So it is the mind that we will have to get hold of to cultivate and save it from bad habits and put it on the correct path to reach the goal of Nibbana. What is the present reality ? To me the "present reality ", is what I am doing now. When I write I write, when I see, I see. When I eat, I eat etc. We the yogis call that, bare attention. Bare attention, by itself, is not enough to purify the mind of its accumulation of bad habits, let alone unwholesome kamma. Therefore some thing more effective to get hold of the mind and see it as it is, is essential. It is not the present reality that could do that purification of the mind to reach the set target. Specially, for us human beings with multifarious activities, it is certainly an enormous assignment. Therefore, Buddha took as his disciples those who had given up their household life to follow his teachings. The Maha Satipattana Sutta consists of the instructions to his Bikkhus to do Bhavana. Bhavana is defined as mental cultivation and called in English Meditation. During the time of the Buddha, instructions were not given to lay people to Meditate. They were told of the merit of Dana Sila and Bhavana which would have been enough for a diligent human earthling to attain at least Sotapatti. Now we have the time and the means, which were not available those days, to take off to meditate. We have no other alternative but to follow those same instructions the Buddha gave to his disciples, to enter the Stream. Then we will have to follow the Sutta Pitaka. As the instructions for the Bikkhus are in them. Abhidhamma is a sacred book, but there are no instructions in it for us or his disciples to follow to purify the mind of its impurities and prepare it to the journey towards Nibbana. It is after all the mind, that reaches Nibbana, not you, me, ken or Larry. Abhidhamma explains the mechanism of the mind. How the mind works. But it does not say, HOW TO GET THE MIND TO WORK. Therefore, we will have to use the appropriate material to set about the cleaning of the mind. The appropriate material is found in the Sutta and not in the Abhidhamma. Your method of " present reality " is mere scratching the surface. That would not do Dear Ken. Set aside the scriptures and meditate, go for a retreat in a good Buddhist Meditation Centre. There are many in America now. Not necessary to go far. Then you will get an idea as to what the mind is without these " present realities". May you be happy, Ken, With metta, Hasituppada. 45271 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:24am Subject: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Jananti and pajanati are different word. The Buddha said in mahasatipatthana as 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajanati'. Jananti and pajanati are explained below. Jananti means 'know' and pa+janati means 'know in details' or 'know well'. PTS-: Pa° (p. 378) (indecl.) [Ved. pra, Idg. *pro, cp. Gr. pro/, Lat. pro, Goth. fra, Lith. pra, pro, Oir. ro--] directional prefix of forward motion, in applied sense often emphasising the action as carried on in a marked degree or even beyond its mark (cp. Ger. ver-- in its function of Goth. fra & Ger. vor). Thus the sphere of pa-- may be characterised in foll. applications: 1. forth, forward, out: papatati fall forward, i. e. down; °neti bring forth (to); °ganhati hold out; °tharati spread forth; °dhavati run out; °bajati go forth; °sareti stretch out; etc. -- 2. (intensive) in a marked degree, more than ordinarily (cp. E. up in cut up, heap up, fill up; thus often to be trsld by "up," or "out," or "about"): pakopeti up-- set; °chindati cut up; °bhanjati break up; °cinati heap up; °kinnaka scattered about; °nada shouting out; °bhati shine forth; °bhavati grow up, prevail; °duseti spoil entirely; °jahati give up entirely; ° tapeti make shine exceedingly (C. ativiya dipeti); °jalati blaze up; °janati know well. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Htoo: Pa-janati = to know well I interpreted this as 'to know detail'. Examples-: a)I saw him running in the street. b)I saw him run in the street. a) just saw that the man was running and I know he ran. b) I know all the details. I saw that he put in his shoes, stood up, learned forward and when there was a signal to run, he started to run and he ran and when he reached the destination he stopped. I saw the whole action all in details. Like this ; Bhikkhi who has been well trained by The Buddha knows when he goes as he goes. This knowing is 'pajanati' and it is not just 'jananti'. Pajanati means 'to know well' or 'to know in detail' while jananti means 'just know'. When uninstructed person goes he may or may not know that he goes. Because he is thinking other things like 'where to go, what to do next, what to do with so and so thing and so on' while he is going. Even when he knows that he goes, his knowing is not free of self- identity. So this is explained in commentary or atthakatha that such knowing is like 'knowing of dogs, foxes etc'. They may know when they go as they go. But well instructed bhikkhu knows that 'my heel starts to be lighter' 'my heel more lighter' 'my heel rises' 'my heel clears the ground' 'my knee bends' 'my thigh swings forward' 'my thigh becomes heavy' 'my leg mecomes more heavier' 'my heel drops' 'my heel touches the ground' 'my heel rests on the ground' 'my body rests on my heel' 'I stand on my heel' 'my another heel become lighter' '..and the cycle continues. He the bhikkhu does not need to cite or say these. But he knows all the detail as 'they are ruupa' and they each disappear at each stages and he sees them (ruupa) as impermanence. His knowing on these ruupa also vanishes and he also sees them (naama) as impermanence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- PTS-: continues In this meaning often with adjectives like patanu very thin; °thaddha quite stiff; °dakkhina right in pre--eminence; °bala very strong. -- 3. "onward": patthaya from . . . onward; pavattati move on; fig. "further, later": paputta a later (secondary) son, i. e. grandson. -- 4. "in front of," "before": padvara, before the door. -- 5. Sometimes in trs. (reflexive) use, like pakujin singing out to (each other, cp Ger. besingen, an--rufen).--The most frequent combination with other (modifying) prefixes is sam--ppa; its closest relatives (in meaning 2 especially) are a and pari. The double (assimilation) p is restored after short vowels, like appadhansiya (a+pa°). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ htootintnaing wrote: Dear All, The Buddha said to his disciples bhikkhus at kammaasadhamma village in kuru country, which is close to Deli in India that '...gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.' This means that 'when going, bhikkhu knows as going 'in detail'. Here 'in detail' is very very important and crucial. Without inclusion of this, there always arise confusion. that 'to know going as going' is not satipatthana and so on. But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. Jaananti means 'to know'. Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45272 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:37am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Hope you don't mind me butting in here. > Jon -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Jon, Thank you very much for your kind suggestions and saying. As I love definitions, I would define dhamma in this way. There are dhammas and they are dhammas. They are citta, cetasikas, ruupa and nibbana. If something is not from any of these mentioned things, that something is not in the castegory of dhamma. So as you said 'what is not real are all pannatti'. Thanks, Htoo Naing 45273 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:43am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: > 1. visual object ruupa > 2. sense-door ruupa eye > 3. eye-consciousness > 4. contact > These arise together. All are not concept. > > Hi Htoo, > > If all 4 _together_ are realities then you have 4 realities that are the > object of one consciousness. Same as kalapa. How can that be? > > Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, We are not in any of 4 while we are speaking on these matters. Visual objecrt ruupa is not yours, not mine but we talked about a single moment of a typical citta of cakkhu-vinnana citta'. OK. Sense-door ruupa eye is not your, not mine and only ruupa at that moment. Eye-consciousness did not arise in you, in me but at that ruupa that we talked on as a single citta. Contact is not yours, not mine, but arose at that time when a single citta arose. What that 'cakkhu-vinnana citta' took was 'visual object ruupa'. That citta did not take eye or cakkhu pasada, contact or phassa. I think you confused on 4 requisites for consciousness. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45274 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: Larry, Thank you it is very kind of you to inquire. I am taking some sort of pain killer the effect of which lasts only about four hours ! Any way it is part of sansaric suffering....... I am not conversant with Abhidhamma terminology. From what I have learnt Rupa are not necessarily hard things: all forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. Htoo may perhaps give appropriate elaboration. with metta, Hasituppada ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, Hasituppada and all, Leaving nibbana, all other dhammas that exist are naama and ruupa only. There is no other things that exist as existences. Among them only naama have the faculty of knowing. Ruupa never know thenmselves, their surroundings, naama and anything at all. The computer is seen. But the computer cannot see. Sounds can be heard but they cannot hear. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45275 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread (351) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 kamma or 'catu-catukka kamma'. 1. janaka kamma or regenerative kamma 2. upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma 3. upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma 4. upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma are classification based on 'the functions of kamma that have regenerative potentials'. 1. garuka kamma or heavy kamma 2. asanna kamma or frequenting kamma 3. acinna kamma or practised kamma or learned kamma 4. katattaa kamma or olden kamma are 2nd classification based on the seniority of kamma in terms of their weightage. 1. ditthia-dhamma-vedaniiya kamma or visible kamma 2. upapajja-vedaniiya kamma or kamma fruits in the next life 3. aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma or kamma fruits through out samsara starts from 2nd next life or 3rd life from the current one. 4. ahosi kamma or fruitless kamma are 3rd classification based on the timing of fruition of kamma. 1. akusala kamma or unwholesome kamma 2. kamavacara kusala kamma or sensuous-sphere wholesome kamma 3. rupavacara kusala kamma or fine material-sphere wholesome kamma 4. arupavacara kusala kamma or non-material-sphere wholesome kamma are 4th classification based on 'the place where kamma give as their effects. Again there are 3 kamma depending on the door where kamma are done. These 3 kamma are 1. kaaya kamma or bodily action 2. vacii kamma or verbal action 3. mano kamma or mental action Among 3 kama-dvara, there are 3 akusala kamma that are frequentlky committed at kaaya dvara or body door. These 3 akusala kaaya kamma are 1. killing 2. stealing 3. wrong-practising of sex Killing is mostly committed through kaaya dvara or through body. But there are some occasions that killing is committed through vaci-dvara or verbal-kamma-door. Examples are 'ordering of killing'. But killing is not done through mind-door alone even though mano- dvara or mind-kamma-door always invlove in any of akusala or kusala actions. By the same token, stealing is mostly done through body-kamma-door or kaaya-dvara. Again, this can also be committed through verbal action by giving orders or any other means of communication while delegating others to perform the action. Wrong-practising of sex is also committed through body-kamma-door or kaaya-dvara. Again there are many implication related to this bad kamma. Once committed, there are many potentials that these kamma are brought along through out the samsara as long as they do not receive their debt. Wrong practising of sex are having sex with married people. This invloves both parties and both male male and female beings committed the same kamma. This happens not only in human beings but in other realms like deva, peta, asura, animals etc as long as beings are in sensuous sphere. When both parties are not married ones, still there this kamma of kaamesu-micchaacara can be committed with unmarried ones. There are 8 kinds of virgins or 8 kinds of woman who are not married but they are guarded by simple owners (not sex owners but just guardians). When unmarried men have sex with any of these 8 woman, they do commit kaamesu-micchaacara akusala kaaya kamma. But these 8 women who have sex with unmarried men are not committing kaamesumicchaacara akusala kamma. Because they own their sex and they just have sex with unmarried one who do not have sex-owners. However, all male partners who have sex with these 8 women without consent of their guardians and without consent of these 8 women are said to commit kaamesumicchaacara akusala kaaya kamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45276 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:48am Subject: Fatal "I"-dentification ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Overblown Narcissism versus the Bliss of Impersonality: The subconscious notion of 'I Am' is a false assumption based on a longstanding Conceit.! The subconscious notion of 'Mine' is a false assumption based on a deep, deep Craving.! The subconscious notion of 'This is My Self' is a false assumption based on a wrong view.! The mentally constructed idea of an internally existing, invisible yet unchanging and independent entity of identity, being in full control and mastering the individual, is rooted in an inflated sense of self-importance! This fabricated 'Ego' assuming an imaginary 'Self' rapidly becomes deeply and tragically in love with itself... This 'auto romance', even though merely an hypothetical ideation, nevertheless demands to be gratified, praised and respected without end, and therefore reacts violently towards any external or internal threats against it's postulated unique magnificence... The root of all EGOISM therefore starts right where & when this conceptual notion of 'I-Me-Mine-Myself-My-Identity-My-Personality' is born...!!! The effects are well known as being catastrophic both individually & socially, locally and globally, here & now, later and much later... They assumed existence of an Ego is therefore the biggest invisible obstruction and the worst immaterial calamity for any being in any world, whether divine or human, whether high or low, whether past, present or future... Basically is 'Self'-belief based on an assumption that either is body, feelings, perceptions, mental constructions, or consciousness itself an 'embodiment' of an otherwise invisible and unobservable 'Self'. This 'representational' ego is then exalted to be the center of the universe... However, this self 'imaging' is merely a manifestation of simple identification with and clinging to internal form, social position, professional occupation, & socalled personal possessions... Such is a highly treacherous, dangerous, and tragic mental projection... The primary self-deception is "I Am...." Then comes the fermentation "I Am this & or that..." Finally is added "I Am better or worse than... & equal to..." The Buddha said: From everywhere, above as below, set free & all released, beyond the concept of 'I am this or that', one has crossed a river never crossed before... Thus freed, do one not renew any being. Udana - Inspiration: VII - 1 Blissful is solitude for one who is content, learned & who see the True Dhamma. Blissful is harmlessness towards all beings without exception. Blissful is freedom from any sensual urge whatsoever. Yet, the supreme bliss, is the elimination of the abysmal conceit "I am"!' Udana - Inspiration: II - 1 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45277 From: connie Date: Sun May 8, 2005 7:38am Subject: eka.m puggala.m piya.m manaapa.m - Tiktak* nichiconn to all the dear mothers, then, Lisa ! May we all live vyaapaadapadosa.m pahaaya - having abandoned ill will and hatred. Mettaasahagatena - accompanied by amity. Thanks, Htoo. You know, I have trouble understanding everyone - how we all talk together and misunderstanding comes up quicker than it goes away, even when we think we agree. 'Pa.n.natti has no character' - beautiful. But I think the well instructed monk knows there is no my surviving foot in all this coming and going, just things "come about merely by means of the diffusion of the air element through the action of consciousness" and such. No summer meditation group. Pali-Girl says I am to give her lessons on citta meanwhile anyway. Maybe Mary? Uhhh, can I practice clear comprehension in talking? I hardly remember anything I said a few weeks ago at the comparative religions class. Not sure what the guy meant asking whether a buddhist could be "normal", but I took it to mean "layman". Is spaced out when you realize you've walked home and the car is still downtown? HAHAHA... when we were leaving, I asked JozaiDog didn't he want to go and he just looked back at Dinah sitting in the car, shook his head no at me & kept heading back to the house. He wasn't too crazy about sticking around her place after the big KAboom and all the other day. peace, connie *Significant photo 45278 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:29am Subject: Waliking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Ken H, Sukinder, Nina + all interested DSG members - Thank you for bouncing back again and again to explain, simplify further, to provide more necessary details, and to even go back to the very beginning, despite being rejected now and then. Htoo, you've more patience that Tep does. I will take you as another good example to follow. Your exaplanation on walking meditation, using DN 22 (or MN 10) as support, is now complete. I have its summary below: Hatoo: >Pa-janati = to know well; I interpreted this as 'to know detail'. >Bhikkhu who has been well trained by The Buddha knows when > he goes as he goes. ...Even when he knows that he goes, >his knowing is not free of self-identity. [Htoo then described > walking meditation, during which the yogi has clear comprehension > of the detailed leg movements and the accompaniying >arising/passing away sensations] ...he knows all the detail > as 'they are ruupa' and > they each disappear at each stages and he sees them (ruupa) > as impermanence. His knowing on these ruupa also vanishes > and he also sees them (naama) as impermanence. That is indeed my practice too. Respectfully with warm regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Jananti and pajanati are different word. The Buddha said in > mahasatipatthana as 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajanati'. > > Jananti and pajanati are explained below. > > Jananti means 'know' and pa+janati means 'know in details' or 'know > well'. > > >(snipped) > But well instructed bhikkhu knows that > > 'my heel starts to be lighter' 'my heel more lighter' 'my heel > rises' 'my heel clears the ground' 'my knee bends' 'my thigh swings > forward' 'my thigh becomes heavy' 'my leg mecomes more heavier' 'my > heel drops' 'my heel touches the ground' 'my heel rests on the > ground' 'my body rests on my heel' 'I stand on my heel' 'my another > heel become lighter' '..and the cycle continues. > > He the bhikkhu does not need to cite or say these. But he knows all > the detail as 'they are ruupa' and they each disappear at each stages > and he sees them (ruupa) as impermanence. His knowing on these ruupa > also vanishes and he also sees them (naama) as impermanence. > With Metta, (snipped) > > Htoo Naing 45279 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Jon It is very kind of you to good thoughts for me. Thank you Jon, Please see my post (45270) to KenH, on present reality. Your point of view is welcome. It is very enriching the thoughts that arise contemplating on the " present reality of pain". There is the pain, with its surrounding "land situation", the heat,hardness, pressure, body feelings. Then the mental situation, caused by anger, impatience, and also the akusala kamma rooted in dosa. In the meantime there is a whole lot of other dhamma arising such as irritating sounds, ear ache, headaches and again akusala kamma rooted in aversion. Those are lot of things to take in Jon for "the present reality". They are relevant in the study of Abhidhamma. But how can we manage all that material in a moment of a "present reality". The question that bothers me is, why did the Buddha teach for 45 years and made well over 10,000 discourses, found in the Tipitaka, when he could have explained the Abhidhamma, and taught us about the present reality ? The Sutta Pitaka ( Discourses) divided into five groups ( Nikaya) contains: 1. Digha Nikaya ( long discourses) contains 34 sutta 2. Majjima Nikaya ( middle length discourses) contains 152 sutta 3. Samyutta Nikaya ( 36 grouped discourses) contains 2889 sutta 4. Anguttara Nikaya ( numbered Discourses) contains 8777 suttas 5. Khuddaka Nikaya ( miscellaneous, called books) 15 books Why did he take all that time making discourses ? Was it just to mislead us the human beings? He could have easily asked us to follow the Abhidhamma . If it was to mislead us and take us away from Abhidhamma, it is the biggest hoax played on us. In that case, it is well and good we have found some one who saw through it and started teaching us the importance of the reality of the instance, referring to the Suttas as mere scripts rejected by an editor, as not good except to support the Abhidhamma. I have great confidence in my Lord the Buddha, and my confidence and saddha is too great to make any such accusation. His teachings are in the Sutta. The discourses in the Sutta Pitaka are meant for his human followers. His mission was to show the human beings suffering in the Samsara, the way to freedom. The corner stone of his teaching is suffering. Therefore our emancipation is through understanding the four noble truths and following the Noble eight fold path. Which teaches us that the final leap into freedom lies in the panna developed through Sila and Samadhi. The reality of the instance is the sati or being mindful as a training to meditation. Meditation is done seated, taking an object of medittion such as Anapana Sati, for Samatha and thereafter directing the mind for insight into anicca dukkha anatma. A meditation session is sacred, one prepares for it, through keeping precepts and paying respect to Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. I express these feelings in the cordial atmosphere of Dhamma discussion. With my respects to all in this forum. May you be happy, Jon, With metta Hasituppada 45280 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:59am Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 5/7/05 9:50:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > Hi Howard, > > This raises an interesting question: what is happening when something is > moving too fast to see it? Why don't we see it, or why do we see a > distortion of it, like the spokes of a moving wheel? Consciousness > cognizes the most minute conscious moment but "I" only see the big > picture. > > Larry > ========================= > What sort of "something is moving too fast to see"? You are presuming > some conventional object "out there" in "the external world". That is - you are > talking concept, not reality. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, How can a concept move? Larry 45281 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 9:11am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > > Htoo: > > 1. visual object ruupa > > 2. sense-door ruupa eye > > 3. eye-consciousness > > 4. contact > > These arise together. All are not concept. > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > If all 4 _together_ are realities then you have 4 realities that > are > the > > object of one consciousness. Same as kalapa. How can that be? > > > > Larry > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Larry, > > We are not in any of 4 while we are speaking on these matters. > > Visual objecrt ruupa is not yours, not mine but we talked about a > single moment of a typical citta of cakkhu-vinnana citta'. OK. > > Sense-door ruupa eye is not your, not mine and only ruupa at that > moment. > > Eye-consciousness did not arise in you, in me but at that ruupa that > we > talked on as a single citta. > > Contact is not yours, not mine, but arose at that time when a single > citta arose. > > What that 'cakkhu-vinnana citta' took was 'visual object ruupa'. > > That citta did not take eye or cakkhu pasada, contact or phassa. > > I think you confused on 4 requisites for consciousness. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, I don't understand your argument. If something is real it must be capable of being an object of consciousness. If "with" is real then consciousness must potentially have two objects. If the 4 _together_ are real then some consciousness must be able to perceive them together. Larry 45282 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/8/05 11:59:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > What sort of "something is moving too fast to see"? You are presuming > some conventional object "out there" in "the external world". That is - you are > talking concept, not reality. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, How can a concept move? Larry =========================== Whatever is correctly referred to as pa~n~natti is actually nothing at all. There are no such things, and to "talk of them" is just to speak in a certain way. When we speak for example, of a firebrand being moved in a circle, there really is no firebrand at all, no circle, and no moving. What there is is a stream of experience decomposable into (actually) inseparable phenomena called "paramattha dhammas". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45283 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma./ Ruupas and Objects of Meditation buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo, Hasituppada, Larry, Howar, KenH, KenO ..etc. - Although I have not read several posted messages here (who can anyway?), I still can recall a good number of them that focus on ruupa, and Htoo and Nina and Sarah etc. have discussed this topic over and over. However, when talking about ruupa as an object of meditation, most theoretical discussers have not done a complete job. Hasituppada have a broad classification for ruupa. His concern, as well as mine, is on ruupa as an object of meditation. Hasituppada: >All forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, > wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises > in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. Htoo responded, " Ruupa never know themselves, their surroundings, naama and anything at all". Tep: Htoo's answer above cannot scratch the spot where it is itching! Hasituppada and Tep want to know why it is wrong to say that all rupas (those given above) may be used as an object of meditation? I believe that, by "meditation", Hasituppada means samatha-vipassana bhavana. Htoo in the message # 44977 stated firmly that there were 7 types of "first-hand object", namely : 1. sight, 2. sound, 3. smell, 4. taste, 5. hardness, 6. temperature, and 7. pressure. Other rupas outside this group are non-first-hand objects, and they are pannatti. If I am not mistaken, we (Hasituppada and Tep) have been told that any pannatti objects (concepts) cannot be the object of Satipatthana. Of course, we have been told that any meditation not using an ultimate reality as an object of Satipatthana is worthless. Is my understanding above right or wrong? Anyone who cares to answer, please do. Respectfully, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" > wrote: > > Larry, > > Thank you it is very kind of you to inquire. I am taking some sort > of pain killer the effect of which lasts only about four hours ! Any > way it is part of sansaric suffering....... > > I am not conversant with Abhidhamma terminology. From what I have > learnt Rupa are not necessarily hard things: > > all forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, > wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises > in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. > > Htoo may perhaps give appropriate elaboration. > > with metta, > Hasituppada > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Larry, Hasituppada and all, > > Leaving nibbana, all other dhammas that exist are naama and ruupa > only. There is no other things that exist as existences. > > Among them only naama have the faculty of knowing. Ruupa never know > thenmselves, their surroundings, naama and anything at all. > > The computer is seen. But the computer cannot see. Sounds can be > heard but they cannot hear. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45284 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 10:38am Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - Good question! I'd like to know the answer too. Thank you for asking the question. Sincerely, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > > Hi Howard, > > How can a concept move? > > Larry 45285 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 11:04am Subject: Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hi Howard and Larry - Okay, Howard. You say that there is no firebrand, no circle of fire, no movement -- only a stream (flow) of experience. What you said is at the micro-level of description; it is a perception straight from a learned theory; it is your own mental fabraication of concepts. The same as when you say our bodies are 99% emptiness -- there are only molecules: there is no being, no Howard; there is only a space of nothing except for electrons and sub-particles floating far apart. At that micro-level everything breaks down into almost nothingness - who can call the totality of electrons, sub-particles and emptiness a being? There is no self either. But this is not Paramattha dhamma -- it is Physics. How does that kind of thinking conditions samma-ditthi? Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - (snipped) > > > Hi Howard, > > How can a concept move? > > Larry > =========================== > Whatever is correctly referred to as pa~n~natti is actually nothing at all. There are no such things, and to "talk of them" is just to speak in a certain way. When we speak for example, of a firebrand being moved in a circle, there really is no firebrand at all, no circle, and no moving. What there is is a stream of experience decomposable into (actually) inseparable phenomena called "paramattha dhammas". > > With metta, > Howard > 45286 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 11:51am Subject: Re: Shape of a cow/Tep buddhistmedi... Hi Larry - You might have assumed that Tep knows the Abhidhamma/Paramattha principles as taught by Acharn Sujin very well. It is not so, Larry. Larry (message #45260): Let's look at it like this. Is the shape of the sign of a cow the object of a single consciousness? If, looking at your own experience of the sign of a cow, it takes more than one consciousness to cognize the shape, then shape is not a concept, because concept is an object of consciousness. Additionally, this sign is not a concept for the same reason. T: We might have a terminology problem here, Larry. I am only at 1 - 2 inches from the ground zero, i.e. I think I only vaguely know a few Paramattha dhamma concepts (i.e. pannatti, ultimate reality, Nibbana, and a few cetasikas like vedana, sanna and vinnana). So I am not sure how to determine if and when an object may take one consciousness or more. I am not sure if a "sign" is the same as a nimitta (mental image), a perception(related to labels and memory), or a mental fabrication (thoughts). Is consciousness same as citta? How do you count consciousness, Larry? If you don't know when it arises and when it passes away, how can you count it? L: On the other hand, the shape of a living cow obviously requires many consciousnesses to cognize it. Therefore this shape is definitely neither concept nor reality. What is it? T: I am not sure how long it takes for the mind to recognize a shape. I don't have a clue about the difference between a "single consciousness" (a single citta) and "many consciousnesses" (stream of cittas?). I guess there are only two choices, something that exists in the universe can be either a concept or a reality. If the shape you were talking about is neither one of the two, then I have no clue. Respectfully, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Let's look at it like this. Is the shape of the sign of a cow the object > of a single consciousness? If, looking at your own experience of the > sign of a cow, it takes more than one consciousness to cognize the > shape, then shape is not a concept, because concept is an object of > consciousness. Additionally, this sign is not a concept for the same > reason. > > On the other hand, the shape of a living cow obviously requires many > consciousnesses to cognize it. Therefore this shape is definitely > neither concept nor reality. What is it? > > Larry 45287 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 2:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. christine_fo... Hello Hasituppada, all, Thank you for your posts to dsg. They are appreciated as the stimulus for relection. May I ask if you would explain, through your understanding of what the Blessed One taught, what Anatta is? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > Dear Jon > > It is very kind of you to good thoughts for me. Thank you Jon, > > Please see my post (45270) to KenH, on present reality. > > Your point of view is welcome. It is very enriching the thoughts > that arise contemplating on the " present reality of pain". There > is the pain, with its surrounding "land situation", the > heat,hardness, pressure, body feelings. Then the mental situation, > caused by anger, impatience, and also the akusala kamma rooted in > dosa. In the meantime there is a whole lot of other dhamma arising > such as irritating sounds, ear ache, headaches and again akusala > kamma rooted in aversion. > > Those are lot of things to take in Jon for "the present reality". > They are relevant in the study of Abhidhamma. But how can we manage > all that material in a moment of a "present reality". > > The question that bothers me is, why did the Buddha teach for 45 > years and made well over 10,000 discourses, found in the Tipitaka, > when he could have explained the Abhidhamma, and taught us about the > present reality ? > > The Sutta Pitaka ( Discourses) divided into five groups ( Nikaya) > contains: > 1. Digha Nikaya ( long discourses) contains 34 sutta > 2. Majjima Nikaya ( middle length discourses) contains 152 sutta > 3. Samyutta Nikaya ( 36 grouped discourses) contains 2889 sutta > 4. Anguttara Nikaya ( numbered Discourses) contains 8777 suttas > 5. Khuddaka Nikaya ( miscellaneous, called books) 15 books > > Why did he take all that time making discourses ? Was it just to > mislead us the human beings? He could have easily asked us to follow > the Abhidhamma . If it was to mislead us and take us away from > Abhidhamma, it is the biggest hoax played on us. > > In that case, it is well and good we have found some one who saw > through it and started teaching us the importance of the reality > of the instance, referring to the Suttas as mere scripts rejected > by an editor, as not good except to support the Abhidhamma. > > I have great confidence in my Lord the Buddha, and my confidence and > saddha is too great to make any such accusation. His teachings are > in the Sutta. The discourses in the Sutta Pitaka are meant for his > human followers. His mission was to show the human beings suffering > in the Samsara, the way to freedom. > > The corner stone of his teaching is suffering. Therefore our > emancipation is through understanding the four noble truths and > following the Noble eight fold path. Which teaches us that the > final leap into freedom lies in the panna developed through Sila > and Samadhi. > > The reality of the instance is the sati or being mindful as a > training to meditation. Meditation is done seated, taking an object > of medittion such as Anapana Sati, for Samatha and thereafter > directing the mind for insight into anicca dukkha anatma. A > meditation session is sacred, one prepares for it, through keeping > precepts and paying respect to Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. > > I express these feelings in the cordial atmosphere of Dhamma > discussion. With my respects to all in this forum. > > May you be happy, Jon, > > With metta > Hasituppada 45288 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Larry) - In a message dated 5/8/05 2:05:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Howard and Larry - Okay, Howard. You say that there is no firebrand, no circle of fire, no movement -- only a stream (flow) of experience. What you said is at the micro-level of description; it is a perception straight from a learned theory; it is your own mental fabraication of concepts. --------------------------------------- Howard: I am 100% persuaded of the ultimate unreality of conventional objects as fact. The concept/reality dichotomy has become increasingly clear to me. --------------------------------------- The same as when you say our bodies are 99% emptiness -- there are only molecules: there is no being, no Howard; there is only a space of nothing except for electrons and sub-particles floating far apart. At that micro-level everything breaks down into almost nothingness - who can call the totality of electrons, sub-particles and emptiness a being? ------------------------------------ Howard: I consider all that Physics to be just some more conceptualizing, and not ultimate reality. This is not to say that I think that conceptualizing is useless. It is anything but useless, for it is our basic means at this point of grasping the relational structure of reality, but it is not the reality itself - it is a useful superimposition. ---------------------------------- There is no self either. But this is not Paramattha dhamma -- it is Physics. How does that kind of thinking conditions samma-ditthi? --------------------------------- Howard: I think that understanding the concept/reality dichotomy on an intellectuall level is of very little import. Understanding it directly by seeing through concepts, however, is an important step, and it comes about by the practices laid out by the Buddha, and not just intellectual theorizing. And even that direct seeing through of concepts is just one step, IMO. Right view goes well beyond merely distinguishing conventional from ultimate, and it produces a disenchantment and an understanding that fully uproots all defilements leaving a reality that goes beyond all concepts, including the dream of separate, self-existent paramattha dhammas. --------------------------------------- Respectfully, Tep ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45289 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 1:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Phil, I can understand your concerns; however, I remember Noble referring to some one that is moral and ethical. A person was considered Noble because he/she was good natured, liked, and respected for it. So yes, a Noble person had a certain degree of enlightenment, morality, one of the three pillars of the eight-fold-path (the other two being wisdom and concentration). However, I think the point of this sutra is to "enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion." I would even go so far to say that if you do this, it will increase your chances of becoming a Noble disciple (what ever it is) if you are not already. Even if you don't have wisdom or selfless morality (i.e., your morality is driven by the Fear of Blame or the Shame of bad karma). Another point: I was taught to look at each sutra individually. Each sutra was written for a certain group of people under a certain situation. So yes, sutras can contradict each other. After all what is good for one may not be good for another. This is also why there are legends of people reading or hearing one sutra then becoming enlightened by it. Phil, you stated, "laypeople who have busy lives in the sensation drenched modern world, attempting to cut that off and behave like monks is just an exercise in self-enjoyment disguised as liberation - so subtly disguised that they themselves often don't know that it's going on." Is that self-enjoyment disguised as liberation causing suffering, or is it suffering in its-self. I say neither, unless it causes the layperson to neglect his/her duty. In this sensation drenched modern world, wouldn't an exercise in self-enjoyment disguised as liberation mean there are periods of no-suffering? and perhaps periods where the three (i.e., morality, wisdom, and concentration) could be developed? and maybe even enlightenment cultivated. Could you imagine not having those periods? Sour grapes are often used to make vinegar or even some wines, so try not to throw away a useful resource. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 08 May, 2005 02:20 Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > This sounds like a good practice to me: > "...Whenever ... a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of seclusion, ..................................... If I'm not mistaken, being a "noble disciple" refers to more than being devoted to Dhamma. It refers to a certain degree of enlightenment.In Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes to Samyutta Nikaya, I'm quite sure he said as much. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong. ....................................... > "Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, > almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of > sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. > Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: "How can we > enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?" (33) > Thus should you train yourselves." ....................................................................................... If I'm not wrong about the above, this means that people should train themselves by becoming noble disciples. Not as easy as one might assume! I have a feeling this is where we run into trouble when we are attracted to practices taught in suttas. For example, in Satippathana sutta the opening condition "having put away covetousness and grief for the world" that must be achieved, as BB puts it, "for the practice to succeed" - how can we who live in the modern world claim so easily to have "put away covetnousness and grief for the world" when we sit down and plunge into our meditation? I remember reading one of the famous introduction guides to meditation - "Mindfulness in Plain English" I think, in which it was taught that a kind of warm-up exercise should be done to deal with hindrances *before* meditating, in order to satisfy the "put away grief and covetousness" above. As though thinking about metta for 5 minutes could do that! That goes against the anatta sutta, thinking that there is a self that can choose to have the khandas in this way or that. I suspect that for laypeople who have busy lives in the sensation drenched modern world, attempting to cut that off and behave like monks is just an exercise in self-enjoyment disguised as liberation - so subtly disguised that they themselves often don't know that it's going on. Stress on I "suspect" - I have no way of knowing what is really going on in people's minds. (There may be sour grapes at work here because my living circumstances do not allow for formal meditation?) If I am wrong about "noble disciple" being more than just someone who is devoted to the Buddha's teaching, please correct me. Phil 45290 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 1:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. dacostacharles It would be better to say the Abhidhamma is full of suttas teachings. ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom <...> Dear Hasituppada, Rob K and Sarah have written many thorough posts on the historical side of the Abhidhamma, as belonging to the oldest tradition. It is in U.P. under Abhidhamma. As far as I understood, the Abhidhamma and the Commentaries were recited from the first Council on. I do not think it to be a later tradition, but most important to me: how does it relate to our life? And, the suttas are full of Abhidhamma. In the U.P. of our list also sutta texts are mentioned that refer to Abhidhamma, especially where the suttas are explained under the aspect of angas. I am preparing to go out of town the whole day tomorrow, so I cannot go deeper into this now. <....> 45291 From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Christine, We were discussing Abhidhamma. Why Anatta ? If you are starting a new post, on Anatta I will then be pleased to write. Otherwise to write on Anatta is a big task. Anattavada is another name for the Buddha's teaching. It is the whole of Buddhism infact. That is what differentiates Buddhism from other religions. with metta, Hasituppada __________________________________________________________ > Hello Hasituppada, all, > > Thank you for your posts to dsg. They are appreciated as the > stimulus for relection. May I ask if you would explain, through > your understanding of what the Blessed One taught, what Anatta is? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" > wrote: > > Dear Jon > > > > It is very kind of you to good thoughts for me. Thank you Jon, > > > > Please see my post (45270) to KenH, on present reality. > > > > Your point of view is welcome. It is very enriching the thoughts > > that arise contemplating on the " present reality of pain". > There > > is the pain, with its surrounding "land situation", the > > heat,hardness, pressure, body feelings. Then the mental > situation, > > caused by anger, impatience, and also the akusala kamma rooted in > > dosa. In the meantime there is a whole lot of other dhamma arising > > such as irritating sounds, ear ache, headaches and again akusala > > kamma rooted in aversion. > > > > Those are lot of things to take in Jon for "the present reality". > > They are relevant in the study of Abhidhamma. But how can we > manage > > all that material in a moment of a "present reality". > > > > The question that bothers me is, why did the Buddha teach for 45 > > years and made well over 10,000 discourses, found in the Tipitaka, > > when he could have explained the Abhidhamma, and taught us about > the > > present reality ? > > > > The Sutta Pitaka ( Discourses) divided into five groups ( Nikaya) > > contains: > > 1. Digha Nikaya ( long discourses) contains 34 sutta > > 2. Majjima Nikaya ( middle length discourses) contains 152 sutta > > 3. Samyutta Nikaya ( 36 grouped discourses) contains 2889 sutta > > 4. Anguttara Nikaya ( numbered Discourses) contains 8777 suttas > > 5. Khuddaka Nikaya ( miscellaneous, called books) 15 books > > > > Why did he take all that time making discourses ? Was it just to > > mislead us the human beings? He could have easily asked us to > follow > > the Abhidhamma . If it was to mislead us and take us away from > > Abhidhamma, it is the biggest hoax played on us. > > > > In that case, it is well and good we have found some one who saw > > through it and started teaching us the importance of the reality > > of the instance, referring to the Suttas as mere scripts > rejected > > by an editor, as not good except to support the Abhidhamma. > > > > I have great confidence in my Lord the Buddha, and my confidence > and > > saddha is too great to make any such accusation. His teachings > are > > in the Sutta. The discourses in the Sutta Pitaka are meant for his > > human followers. His mission was to show the human beings > suffering > > in the Samsara, the way to freedom. > > > > The corner stone of his teaching is suffering. Therefore our > > emancipation is through understanding the four noble truths and > > following the Noble eight fold path. Which teaches us that the > > final leap into freedom lies in the panna developed through Sila > > and Samadhi. > > > > The reality of the instance is the sati or being mindful as a > > training to meditation. Meditation is done seated, taking an > object > > of medittion such as Anapana Sati, for Samatha and thereafter > > directing the mind for insight into anicca dukkha anatma. A > > meditation session is sacred, one prepares for it, through keeping > > precepts and paying respect to Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. > > > > I express these feelings in the cordial atmosphere of Dhamma > > discussion. With my respects to all in this forum. > > > > May you be happy, Jon, > > > > With metta > > Hasituppada From: "hasituppada" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma./ Ruupas and Objects of Meditation hasituppada Dear Tep, At the beginning stages of Samatha Bhavana, all objects coming in contact with the sense faculties are taken as objects of meditation. When seated with eyes closed there are no visual objects. The primary object of meditation is the breath. Then other objects like sound, feelings, or thoughts etc. are felt, heard or noted. The meditator takes the sound as an object, and being aware of that object, it passes away and then he comes back to the breath. This enables him to train himself in one pointed concentration. There is no process of thinking and separating concepts and non concepts. It is merely being aware of each object with metta, Hasituppada ___________________________________________________________ Hi Htoo, Hasituppada, Larry, Howar, KenH, KenO ..etc. - > > Although I have not read several posted messages here (who can > anyway?), I still can recall a good number of them that focus on ruupa, > and Htoo and Nina and Sarah etc. have discussed this topic over and > over. However, when talking about ruupa as an object of meditation, > most theoretical discussers have not done a complete job. > > Hasituppada have a broad classification for ruupa. His concern, as > well as mine, is on ruupa as an object of meditation. > > Hasituppada: > >All forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, > > wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises > > in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. > > Htoo responded, " Ruupa never know themselves, their surroundings, > naama and anything at all". > > Tep: Htoo's answer above cannot scratch the spot where it is itching! > Hasituppada and Tep want to know why it is wrong to say that all rupas > (those given above) may be used as an object of meditation? I > believe that, by "meditation", Hasituppada means samatha-vipassana > bhavana. > > Htoo in the message # 44977 stated firmly that there were 7 types > of "first-hand object", namely : 1. sight, 2. sound, 3. smell, 4. taste, 5. > hardness, 6. temperature, and 7. pressure. Other rupas outside this > group are non-first-hand objects, and they are pannatti. > > If I am not mistaken, we (Hasituppada and Tep) have been told that > any pannatti objects (concepts) cannot be the object of Satipatthana. > Of course, we have been told that any meditation not using an ultimate > reality as an object of Satipatthana is worthless. > > Is my understanding above right or wrong? Anyone who cares to > answer, please do. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > =========== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" > > wrote: > > > > Larry, > > > > Thank you it is very kind of you to inquire. I am taking some sort > > of pain killer the effect of which lasts only about four hours ! Any > > way it is part of sansaric suffering....... > > > > I am not conversant with Abhidhamma terminology. From what I have > > learnt Rupa are not necessarily hard things: > > > > all forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, > > wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises > > in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. > > > > Htoo may perhaps give appropriate elaboration. > > > > with metta, > > Hasituppada > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > Dear Larry, Hasituppada and all, > > > > Leaving nibbana, all other dhammas that exist are naama and ruupa > > only. There is no other things that exist as existences. > > > > Among them only naama have the faculty of knowing. Ruupa never > know > > thenmselves, their surroundings, naama and anything at all. > > > > The computer is seen. But the computer cannot see. Sounds can be > > heard but they cannot hear. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing 45293 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... lbidd2 Howard: "Whatever is correctly referred to as pa~n~natti is actually nothing at all. There are no such things, and to "talk of them" is just to speak in a certain way. When we speak for example, of a firebrand being moved in a circle, there really is no firebrand at all, no circle, and no moving. What there is is a stream of experience decomposable into (actually) inseparable phenomena called "paramattha dhammas"." Hi Howard, It seems to me you are forsaking your phenomenalist/experiential roots in favor of a concept of ultimate reality. Movement is as plain as the colour red. We don't just agree to accept a particular phenomenon as "movement". It is unavoidable and not a convention. Be that as it may, I would still like to know how the "conventional" appearance of movement comes about. I agree the notion of a watcher is tied up with this, but I don't see the details of the 'how'. Any ideas? Larry 45294 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shape of a cow/Tep lbidd2 Tep: "If the shape you were talking about is neither one of the two, then I have no clue." Hi Tep, I don't know either, but I am relying on you to come up with an answer. Please strive harder! Larry 45295 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma/Anatta christine_fo... Hello Hasituppada, all, It is my understanding that Anatta is what the Abhidhamma is about. "It is on this very doctrine of Non-self (anatta) that all Abhidhamma thought converges and this is where it culminates. The elaborate and thorough treatment of Anatta is also the most important practical contribution of the Abhidhamma to the progress of the Buddha's disciple towards liberation." - quoted from "The Abhidhamma Philosophy - Its Estimation in the Past and its value for the Present" by Nyanaponika Thera (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > Dear Christine, > > We were discussing Abhidhamma. Why Anatta ? If you are starting a > new post, on Anatta I will then be pleased to write. > Otherwise to write on Anatta is a big task. Anattavada is another > name for the Buddha's teaching. It is the whole of Buddhism infact. > That is what differentiates Buddhism from other religions. > > with metta, > Hasituppada > __________________________________________________________ > > > Hello Hasituppada, all, > > > > Thank you for your posts to dsg. They are appreciated as the > > stimulus for relection. May I ask if you would explain, through > > your understanding of what the Blessed One taught, what Anatta is? > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" > > wrote: > > > Dear Jon > > > > > > It is very kind of you to good thoughts for me. Thank you Jon, > > > > > > Please see my post (45270) to KenH, on present reality. > > > > > > Your point of view is welcome. It is very enriching the > thoughts > > > that arise contemplating on the " present reality of pain". > > There > > > is the pain, with its surrounding "land situation", the > > > heat,hardness, pressure, body feelings. Then the mental > > situation, > > > caused by anger, impatience, and also the akusala kamma rooted > in > > > dosa. In the meantime there is a whole lot of other dhamma > arising > > > such as irritating sounds, ear ache, headaches and again > akusala > > > kamma rooted in aversion. > > > > > > Those are lot of things to take in Jon for "the present > reality". > > > They are relevant in the study of Abhidhamma. But how can we > > manage > > > all that material in a moment of a "present reality". > > > > > > The question that bothers me is, why did the Buddha teach for 45 > > > years and made well over 10,000 discourses, found in the > Tipitaka, > > > when he could have explained the Abhidhamma, and taught us about > > the > > > present reality ? > > > > > > The Sutta Pitaka ( Discourses) divided into five groups ( > Nikaya) > > > contains: > > > 1. Digha Nikaya ( long discourses) contains 34 sutta > > > 2. Majjima Nikaya ( middle length discourses) contains 152 sutta > > > 3. Samyutta Nikaya ( 36 grouped discourses) contains 2889 sutta > > > 4. Anguttara Nikaya ( numbered Discourses) contains 8777 suttas > > > 5. Khuddaka Nikaya ( miscellaneous, called books) 15 books > > > > > > Why did he take all that time making discourses ? Was it just > to > > > mislead us the human beings? He could have easily asked us to > > follow > > > the Abhidhamma . If it was to mislead us and take us away from > > > Abhidhamma, it is the biggest hoax played on us. > > > > > > In that case, it is well and good we have found some one who > saw > > > through it and started teaching us the importance of the > reality > > > of the instance, referring to the Suttas as mere scripts > > rejected > > > by an editor, as not good except to support the Abhidhamma. > > > > > > I have great confidence in my Lord the Buddha, and my confidence > > and > > > saddha is too great to make any such accusation. His teachings > > are > > > in the Sutta. The discourses in the Sutta Pitaka are meant for > his > > > human followers. His mission was to show the human beings > > suffering > > > in the Samsara, the way to freedom. > > > > > > The corner stone of his teaching is suffering. Therefore our > > > emancipation is through understanding the four noble truths and > > > following the Noble eight fold path. Which teaches us that the > > > final leap into freedom lies in the panna developed through > Sila > > > and Samadhi. > > > > > > The reality of the instance is the sati or being mindful as a > > > training to meditation. Meditation is done seated, taking an > > object > > > of medittion such as Anapana Sati, for Samatha and thereafter > > > directing the mind for insight into anicca dukkha anatma. A > > > meditation session is sacred, one prepares for it, through > keeping > > > precepts and paying respect to Buddha Dhamma and Sangha. > > > > > > I express these feelings in the cordial atmosphere of Dhamma > > > discussion. With my respects to all in this forum. > > > > > > May you be happy, Jon, > > > > > > With metta > > > Hasituppada 45296 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. lbidd2 Hi Hasituppada, I would just like to add that I thought your original insight is a good one. There is no feeling characteristic in awareness. Feeling is the only dhamma that feels (pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral). All other dhammas, materiality, perception, mental formations, and consciousness (plus nibbana and concepts) are completely void of the characteristic of feeling. As long as you have this more or less steady stream of pain you might try to notice the beginning, middle, and end of a moment of painful feeling. I have never been able to do this myself, but I imagine it is very subtle. Larry 45297 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Self & No Self dacostacharles Hi Naresh, I apologies for this unsolicited response, my own desires got the best of me so "I" had to reply: You asked what is the difference between a Monk & layperson. In simple terms, the difference is in the number of vows. Monks take on lots of vows and laypeople take on 5 to 8 vows at most. This gives monks a higher status in Buddhism. Also more, in-terms of morality and concentration, is expected of monks. You also ask about the doctrines of self and no-self. You stated the two ideas clashes (a big battle field) inside & the battle, I assume, makes your living worse. The doctrine is hard for most to accept because they do not have the right definition, or they have a solid belief system, already in place, that contradicts the definition they have been given. What I like to get people to understand is that both ideas are true in Buddhism. So, yes at times you have a self, and at times you don't. This is because it is just an idea or concept, a way of representing any combination of the 5 aggregates seen as you. You can say this self is like a candle flame, changing every instant, having a limited life span, having no essence, and somewhat uncontrollable. I like to tell people that are new to Buddhism, it is better to view the doctrine as relating to self-centered thinking, and do not get caught up in weather or not we really exist. And, after you understand more of the teachings, progress to seeing the doctrine relating to -- not having an eternal, unchanging, essence. At this point you may still have a soul; however it is changing, not your essence, nor will it exist for ever. And as you progress more in the teaching, you begin to understand that the self is born ever time you think "I", "me", or "mine"; and it dies away when you stop. At this point you realize that the term is just another useful concept to describe all the processes that makes up you. So, at this point you can look in a mirror and know that is you and you are real. The doctrine of non-self is a doctrine that spans a graded path. A very, very, small number of people will gain instant enlightenment upon hearing it, and most will never fully grasp it, but some will understand how and when to apply it. CharlesD PS: Take what is useful and store the rest. ----- Original Message ----- From: naresh gurwani To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 03 May, 2005 02:27 Subject: [dsg] Self & No Self Hi Nina Since long time iam not in to this discussion board, i have a question what is the difference between a Monk & layperson, is it that Monk is one who stays in seclusion and practices & learns And Layperson is one who follows dhamma but is also a householder ? Another query why is it so difficult to accept tht there is no self, iam trying to understand , but it is quite difficult to accept the fact of No -self but on the other hand iam very much keen on knowing only Truth, So self & no self is a big battle field inside me this 2 clashes & make my living worse. Naresh 45298 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 6:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Shape of a cow/Tep buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - I have found it strange that the Abhidhammika had to seek an answer from the rookie. If you were not kidding me, let's work out an answer together. But in order to prove that you did not play a trick on me, can you tell me why you asked that question in the first place? Sincerely, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Tep: "If the shape you were talking about is neither one of the two, > then I have no clue." > > Hi Tep, > > I don't know either, but I am relying on you to come up with an answer. > Please strive harder! > > Larry 45299 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 7:47pm Subject: Re: Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Howard - Like I said before - you had a way with words. I like your invention, "ultimate unreality". Thank you for skillfully explaining the importance of "conventional objects" and the utility of conceptualizing. Howard: > It is anything but useless, for it is our basic means at this point of > grasping the relational structure of reality, but it is not the reality > itself - it is a useful superimposition. > ---------------------------------- > I think that understanding the concept/reality dichotomy on an > intellectuall level is of very little import. Understanding it directly > by seeing through concepts, however, is an important step, >and it comes about by the practices laid out by the Buddha, > and not just intellectual theorizing. And even that > direct seeing through of concepts is just one step, IMO. > Right view goes well beyond merely distinguishing conventional > from ultimate, and it produces a disenchantment and an > understanding that fully uproots all defilements leaving a > reality that goes beyond all concepts, including the dream of > separate, self-existent paramattha dhammas. ------------------------------------------------------ T: You have said it all. I think you have the right defense against the charges made by the Abhidhammikas on concepts and conceptualization. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Larry) - > > In a message dated 5/8/05 2:05:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tepsastri@y... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry - > > Okay, Howard. You say that there is no firebrand, no circle of fire, no > movement -- only a stream (flow) of experience. What you said is at the > micro-level of description; it is a perception straight from a learned > theory; it is your own mental fabraication of concepts. > --------------------------------------- 45300 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:06pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau Dear Hasituppada, You wrote: ----------------------------- > Thank you very much for your taking time to explain. We know that there is not the past nor the future but only the present moment. But from what I understand from the teachings in the Sutta is, that there is more to it than knowing the present reality to escape from the suffering in samsara. ----------------------------- It is a pity that we disagree, but at least we know where we disagree. I say there is nothing more to the Dhamma than knowing the present reality: you say there *is* something more. I think this is also where 99% of modern-day Buddhists disagree with the ancient Theravadin texts. I am grateful that you, and others like you, have joined DSG to discuss our dinosaur version of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------- H: > It is the mind that is causing all our problems, because : Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind one speaks or acts, suffering follows one like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox. (Dhammapada) --------------------------------------- Agreed. We non-arahants have impure minds. Even in rare moments of kusala kamma there are latent tendencies for akusala, and so the wheel of suffering is kept turning. However, this is nothing to get upset about because there is only the present moment. Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. ---------------- H: > The mind is going a long journey, in that journey it has collected so much of habits, which are good, which are bad and which are neutral. --------------- Sorry to be picky, but only arahants have neutral kamma, and so I doubt we can have neutral habits. ------------------------------------------------- H: > So it is the mind that we will have to get hold of to cultivate and save it from bad habits and put it on the correct path to reach the goal of Nibbana. ------------------------------------------------ That sounds like an onerous duty. It reminds me of Shakespeare's Hamlet: "Oh cursed spite, That ever I was born to set it right." Fear not, H, there are only dhammas here. They are fleeting, conditioned, impersonal phenomena, and not worth obsessing over. ------------------------------------------ H: > What is the present reality ? To me the "present reality ", is what I am doing now. When I write I write, ------------------------------------------- I don't want to convert you: I just want you to know that there is another side to the story. When you are writing, there is no writer and there is no writing: there are only dhammas. Some dhammas perform the function of thinking, and they create the illusion of "writer" and "writing." -------------------------------- H: > when I see, I see. -------------------------------- Here, the ultimate story is slightly different. To paraphrase the Abhidhamma; 'Mere seeing exists but no seer is found.' Seeing is eye-consciousness, which is a paramattha dhamma. While you have been reading this message, countless eye-consciousnesses have arisen, performed their functions, and fallen away. ------------------------------------------------- H: > When I eat, I eat etc. We the yogis call that, bare attention. ------------------------------------------------- Yogi or not, you cannot practise the Dhamma when you believe eating is a reality. ------------------------ H: > Bare attention, by itself, is not enough to purify the mind of its accumulation of bad habits, let alone unwholesome kamma. Therefore some thing more effective to get hold of the mind and see it as it is, is essential. It is not the present reality that could do that purification of the mind to reach the set target. ------------------------- I agree, and I should clarify one extremely important point: It is not the present reality that purifies the mind. The thing that purifies the mind is *knowing the present reality.* The present moment might be very impure - it might include dosa, for example, or moha, or even micha-ditthi - but the immediately following moments of consciousness can take any present (now, fallen away) reality as their object. It resonates in a way that it can be experienced even though it has just fallen away. ----------------------------- H: > Specially, for us human beings with multifarious activities, it is certainly an enormous assignment. ------------------------------ There, the Theravadin understanding has the advantage. Since there is only the present moment, there are no human beings and no multifarious activities: there are only dhammas. Therefore, the only obstacle that could stand in the way of vipassana development is moha (ignorance of the Dhamma). ------------------------------------------------- H: > Therefore, Buddha took as his disciples those who had given up their household life to follow his teachings. ------------------------------------------------- I don't know which meaning you are applying to the word "disciples" in this instance - do you mean chief disciples? There were, and possibly still are, lay followers who were ariyans. Lay followers and bhikkhus are equally capable when it comes to understanding and practising Dhamma. However, some people have accumulated the necessary tendencies for living the homeless life, preserving the arahant lifestyle and, in some cases, developing jhana. --------------------------------- H: > The Maha Satipattana Sutta consists of the instructions to his Bikkhus to do Bhavana. Bhavana is defined as mental cultivation and called in English Meditation. ------------------------------- Ultimately, a bhikkhu is anyone who follows the Buddha's teaching. Or, more correctly, it is the five khandhas when they the sankhara-khandha includes right understanding and right mindfulness (and so on). When we know ultimate reality as being the present five khandhas (in whatever form they might arise), the term "instruction to do bhavana" takes on a whole new meaning. "Understand the five khandhas" is one new meaning that springs to mind; can you think of any others? -------------------------------------------------- H: > During the time of the Buddha, instructions were not given to lay people to Meditate. They were told of the merit of Dana Sila and Bhavana which would have been enough for a diligent human earthling to attain at least Sotapatti. --------------------------------------------------- I'll have to skip over that because I don't understand what you are saying. Unless, that is, you are agreeing that right understanding is enough for the attainment of enlightenment. (?) ------------------------------------------------- H: > Now we have the time and the means, which were not available those days, to take off to meditate. We have no other alternative but to follow those same instructions the Buddha gave to his disciples, to enter the Stream. Then we will have to follow the Sutta Pitaka. As the instructions for the Bikkhus are in them. -------------------------------------------------- Do you mean the Dhamma has changed since the Buddha taught it? That is the sort of thinking that can arise only from a non-present- moment-centred interpretation. The namas and rupas that are arising now have exactly the same characteristics that they had in the Buddha's day. --------------------------- H: > Abhidhamma is a sacred book, but there are no instructions in it for us or his disciples to follow to purify the mind of its impurities and prepare it to the journey towards Nibbana. ---------------------------- Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. Otherwise, you will always be practising a conventional technique of a kind that can be taught by any moderately intelligent person. The Dhamma is unique. It can be taught only by a Buddha, and it can be practised only by the wise. Even if there is no wisdom now, lots of other dhammas are arising, ready to be understood. Ken H 45301 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/8/05 7:24:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, It seems to me you are forsaking your phenomenalist/experiential roots in favor of a concept of ultimate reality. Movement is as plain as the colour red. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Not to me. I experience one thing, then another, then another - and I *concoct* motion. This is becoming increasingly clear to me. ------------------------------------------ We don't just agree to accept a particular phenomenon as "movement". It is unavoidable and not a convention. Be that as it may, I would still like to know how the "conventional" appearance of movement comes about. I agree the notion of a watcher is tied up with this, but I don't see the details of the 'how'. Any ideas? ------------------------------------------- Howard: The best I can say is what I said above about experiencing differing things and then mentally relating them and constrcting a percept of motion. -------------------------------- Larry =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45302 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Lost Message upasaka_howard Hi, all - Just a little while ago I was replying to a post by someone [not sure whether from Tep or Larry or ???] and I lost my connecton as well as the post. If someone sent me a post that I haven't eplied to, coud you pease re-send it directly to me? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45303 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shape of a cow/Tep lbidd2 Tep: "can you tell me why you asked that question in the first place?" Hi Tep, The questions just popped into my head, no control. But once they arose, we have to find an answer. Don't you think so? First, what is a sign? A sign is a symbol, an abstraction, something that stands for something else, a greater reality. A word is a sign but for visual perception a sign is most often a shape. A smiley face is a sign :-) In the past we have often talked about the 'alleged' existence of a tree in Howard's yard. Whenever we talk about Howard's tree I imagine a simple generic tree shape. It's vague, with little detail and undoubtedly nothing like the actual tree. So here comes the first question. The tree sign is an abstraction of the living tree shape. We identify the tree because it conforms to the basic tree shape sign, but the actual tree shape is infinitely more detailed than the tree sign. Just because the actual tree shape conforms to the tree sign doesn't mean that the actual tree shape is only the simple, abstract tree sign. If the actual tree shape isn't the tree sign, what is it? What is any shape? How do we know a shape? Every visual object and every tactile object has a shape. Do we know the shape all at once or piece by piece? If we know anything piece by piece, how do we put it together? Consciousness can only know one thing at a time. The actual tree shape is very complex so we must 'take it in' piece by piece. Even a simple tree sign has a number of features. Consciousness can not only know only one reality at a time, it can also only know one concept at a time. We obviously know shapes and many other complex phenomena, both conceptual and real. How? If shape is somehow real, what about the Buddha's cow and what about Vajira's chariot? The cow and chariot cannot be found by dividing them into parts, the basic satipatthana (and abhidhamma) procedure. Dividing the cow and chariot into parts destroys their shape. Whatever is destroyed must have existed in some way. Hence, cow and chariot are impermanent. Therefore 'person' and 'self' are impermanent. Utoh... KenO isn't going to like this. That's the general idea. What do we do with it? We have to understand better what we know and how we know it. Everyone is working with the same reality, so how do you see it? Larry 45304 From: "mnease" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause mlnease Hi Nina and Htoo, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2005 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause Dear Htoo, See my book Cetasikas, and also on line: rupas. As for cittas, I did in my Abhidhamma book, but not for all. The four things cannot be applied to nibbaana, this is a special case. Paññatti do not have these four. Nina. op 04-05-2005 19:35 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > Once I have asked someone to teach me through someone like Nina about > > 1. characterstic > 2. function > 3. manifestation > 4. approximate cause > > of citta, 52 cetasikas, 28 rupas, nibbana, and pannatti. But I was > thrashed that I was lazy and Nina will not do such job, said that > person. The best source for these, I think, is the Atthasaalinii. I'm working on a series of 'flash cards' including just these data but must wait till I get a copy of the Ats. to finish. I'll keep dsg posted for anyone interested in these. mike 45305 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:54pm Subject: trim and salutation reminders dsgmods Hi All, Just a couple of reminders. Trimming When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. Salutation etc To avoid confusion, please use a salutation at the beginning of each post, and sign off at the end. We appreciate your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS The full guidelines can be found in the files section. Comments or questions off-list only. Thanks 45306 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:36pm Subject: Final Freedom ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Supreme Goal Ahead: Buddha once said: The purpose of morality is self-control. The purpose of self-control is absence of regrets. The purpose of absence of regrets is joy. The purpose of joy is satisfaction. The purpose of satisfaction is calm. The purpose of calm is happiness. The purpose of happiness is concentration. The purpose of concentration is understanding. The purpose of understanding is turning away. The purpose of turning away is disillusion. The purpose of disillusion is mental release. The purpose of mental release is Nibbâna, Final Freedom without remnants of clinging... Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <.....> 45307 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 8, 2005 8:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... lbidd2 Howard: "I experience one thing, then another, then another - and I *concoct* motion." Hi Howard, I very much agree we experience one thing at a time, but this goes in a very plodding, jerky pace. Motion is smooth and uninterrupted within the crude fits and starts of attention. It is very hard to believe you experience motion in frames, but even if you do I would be inclined to attribute that to a peculiar visual skill in being able to spot details in the movement of an object. I think this says more about the versatility of consciousness than the nature of motion. It is actually stopping motion rather than concocting it. Larry 45308 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 9:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause foamflowers I want to wade into this too--Hi everyone! Htoo, I'm still working on what ritual means to me...I will post this coming week. Thanks again for wading through my questions and pointing out the strong and weak spots. Some of my notes I've been taking on this subject, please be free with your corrections! Two levels of reality paramattha and pannatti. Paramattha, that which is independent of cognition, that which cannot be seen by the eye or be felt but that which can be understood by consciousness like sensation, cool, hard, soft, pushing, tight, stiff, movement, pain, numb and so on (sensations?). Pannatti, cannot exist without the cognative functions that which is seen by the eye, felt, tasted, touched and so on. (1) nama-pannatti=names+words+signs+symbols=designated things, which can be real or unreal (sannakaramatta)=mode of recognizing, worldly convention. loka-sanketa-nimmita+lokavoharena siddha (2)attha-pannatti=ideas, notions, concepts corresponding to names, words, signs, or symbols, that is the mind which functions as the interpreter (kappana) and appearances or forms which arise from the (dhammas) elements depending on situations or positions (avattha-visesa). Nama Pannatti and attha-pannatti are psychological in their nature reality and are not part of that which does not depend on our existence and the way of performing observations. Pannatti= don't spend to much time with pannatti (personal opinion) just know it for what it is and move on. This understanding helps condition the next movement to the next level paramattha I think there is a danger of getting lost in the details of Pannatti, once understood I should look for what is not conditioned which is pure sensation or feeling? So motion would be the pure sensation of walking, that light and heavy feeling going through the body in an split second as one moves legs up and down, kind of like the feeling when one rides in an elevator except it happens in a nano second (the nama and rupa meet and flash..bling-bling) A cow the reality of a cow would be the pure sensation of a cow when we look at it or smell it or taste it, touch it and so on (hahaha), then the name or symbol we give that sensation and then all the other stuff that follows a name which could be memories, worries, anger, happiness, indifference and so on. With Metta, Lisa 45309 From: "Lisa" Date: Sun May 8, 2005 9:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause foamflowers I forgot to add the last part of my little note... > Pannatti= don't spend to much time with pannatti (personal opinion) > just know it for what it is and move on. This understanding helps > condition the next movement to the next level paramattha > > I think there is a danger of getting lost in the details of >Pannatti, once understood I should look for what is not conditioned >which is pure sensation or feeling? > So motion would be the pure sensation of walking, that light and >heavy feeling going through the body in an split second as one moves >legs up and down, kind of like the feeling when one rides in an >elevator except it happens in a nano second (the nama and rupa meet >and flash..bling-bling) > > A cow the reality of a cow would be the pure sensation of a cow when > we look at it or smell it or taste it, touch it and so on (hahaha), > then the name or symbol we give that sensation and then all the >other stuff that follows a name which could be memories, worries, >anger,happiness, indifference and so on. Add on to this part.....I therefore understand why I lift my leg and set it down and also understand the cause of this lifting of the leg. and setting it down. I know when I stand and the cause of why I stand, I know why I walk and the cause of why I walk...it is the nama and the rupa coming together--bling-bling ( all the jewerly and flashy, fancy stuff money can buy--bling-bling) and I know why I walk and why I stand, plus I get a kick out of being able to watch sensation without hooking all that other stuff onto it. Walking becomes very light and fun to just watch! Nana go lightly...lol With metta, Lisa 45310 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 8, 2005 10:38pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 188 - Enthusiasm/piiti (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] As regards the kåmåvacara sobhana cittas (beautiful cittas of the sense-sphere), only the types of citta which are accompanied by pleasant feeling arise with píti. When we, with generosity and full of joy, help someone else, the kusala citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling and also by píti which invigorates body and mind. Even if there was tiredness before, it is gone; one is refreshed. The same may happen when one reads a sutta with kusala citta accompanied by joy and enthusiasm. At such a moment one is not bored or tired, there is píti which takes a pleasurable interest in the object. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45311 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 - More on Prescribing and Strategi es sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: <....> >S: We discussed how when there isn’t any development of satipatthana now, > we > keep thinking about what actions to take, how to cope or what to do in > various situations. However, the thinking is always about the future or > past. At the same time, the development of understanding is being > postponed by thinking and yet more thinking at these times. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't get what you are pointing out here. > -------------------------------- S: I was trying to say that whilst we keep thinking about what we should do, how we should behave (or should have behaved) and when we should develop bhavana (meditation), we are lost in stories about future or past concepts rather than actually being aware of what is real right now. Really, I’d like to quote back some of your own excellent comments (to Tep): You wrote: “My understanding is that when the mind is engaged in thinking, which is something that goes on “all” the time(!), it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas.........but those “things” are not actually occurring things at all any more than a unicorn is, but are merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed.......etc” And then “So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc that are not, themselves, thought process-produced but which serve as the basis for our perceiving of a “gingkok tree”......” In just the same way, the thoughts about how to behave or what actions to take in future (or those taken in the pas)t are ‘not actually occurring things at all’. There can be awareness now of the ‘hardness sensations, odors, and sights’ or the thinking if they appear, one at a time, but not of the various concepts. When satipatthana begins to develop, there is less inclination to think about future and past bhavana. I hope this makes sense. ..... >S: A friend also raised other examples of suttas which seem to be > suggesting > strategies to follow at times of strong akusala (unwholesome states), <...> > Howard: > What is your point here, Sarah? > ----------------------------------- S: (btw, I included your name because I remembered you had discussed this sutta before). I think my point follows below: <...> >S: Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst describing and giving > examples such as these. However,the panna knows that in fact, ‘we’ > do > whatever conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, > is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand whatever the > dhamma > (reality) is at any given time so that insight can develop. This is > ‘bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa’ – the real development of satipatthana. .... S: We all have our own ways of behaving or tendencies/strategies for coping. These are conditioned in complex ways, but the purpose is to understand, to develop detachment, towards dhammas arising and appearing now. Whilst we continue to believe that ‘we’ can make them be a certain way or that intentions can somehow be controlled, satipatthana won’t be developing. Let me stress that this doesn’t mean that certain ways of behaviour aren’t good and others not good. On the contrary, good is seen as good and bad is seen as bad, more and more precisely, I believe. .... > Howard: > The Buddha repeatedly gave instructions for practice, and he urged > their > carrying out. Thius is so eminently clear that it boggles my mind how > some > folks strain to see the matter otherwise. > ---------------------------------- S: Yes, he gave instructions. He left the Dhamma and his instruction was to take refuge in it, to develop satipatthana by following the eightfold Path. However, it is right understanding and the other path factors which do the developing when there has been sufficient wise reflection about present namas and rupas to be known. .... > S: Panna has to develop with detachment, not with an idea of self that is > following strategies or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It > has to also develop with patience to know what isn’t known, not with > attachment to having awareness arise often. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > All development has to start from where we are, and not from where > we > hope to be. One who is without idea of self has already made > considerable > progress. ... S: One who is without any idea of self is a sotapanna already. To reach this stage, the understanding has to develop step by step. ... >The process doesn't begin at that stage, for that stage has to > first be > attained. We start, in fact, in the midst of ignorance, and we must > engage in the > practice taught by the Buddha to get oneself off ground zero. ... S: I agree about the midst of ignorance (or the mist of ignorance for that matter). Again, it is the development of awareness which begins by being aware of dhammas so that panna can know there’s no self to get ‘off ground zero’ at all. .... >S: The most important thing is that it should be the right > path at this moment. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > To be the *right* path, it must be *some* path. With no path, one > just > does what feels good and remains enmeshed in craving and ignorance > forever. > -------------------------------------- S: Even no path is better than wrong path:-). Even whilst ‘enmeshed in craving and ignorance’ like for much of the day, awareness can and does begin to develop. If we hadn’t heard about these qualities or heard that they are dhammas, not self, it would be impossible for awareness to develop. But, we’ve heard a lot about them, we’ve heard a lot about seeing consciousness and visible object and other sense objects, so that awareness can slowly perform its function. It can be aware of seeing now if conditions allow, but it can never make seeing arise or more awareness for that matter. As soon as there is any craving or wish to have more or quicker awareness, or attempts to make it arise, there’s likely to silabbataparamasa again, I think. Howard, I know you will again disagree with many of these comments and I respect that you just point out differences as you see them. I don’t mind at all and am just glad to see you contributing to these threads again. As I said, I particularly liked your comments on concepts and realities. I look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ========== 45312 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 More on Prescribing and Strategies sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I just lost a longer reply to you on this topic, so this one will be briefer. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: Sarah, I agree with every nice thing you have mentioned concerning > Satipatthana and understanding with sampajanna. The Satipatthana > Sutta is a major discourse, it was not meant to be for beginners to > follow and ignore everything else of the Teachings. It is not the only > discourse the Buddha taught. So your "points" are only a part of what > the Buddha taught. > > Maybe they are too advanced. Frankly, how often can you be "aware > of the present nama or rupa appearing" in the present moment? ... S: No need to think of ‘how often’. If awareness arises, it arises, if it doesn’t it doesn’t. It’s just an element, not self. I really don’t count and am confident that it’s useless to be concerned about it. ... >How > well does your Satipatthana scheme work when the mind is attacked > by hindrances? ... S: Again, I see the hindrances as elements which can just as easily be objects of awareness as any other dhamma appearing. Like just now when I lost my post to you, there was some brief irritation, but I don’t see the irritation or any other dhamma as being a real hindrance to satipatthana, because they have to be known for what they are too. The one real hindrance is wrong view and particularly the idea of self that experiences these various states or which can control the various elements. .... >What do you do in order to clear your mind from > hindrances? ... S: Conventionally speaking, I may go for a swim or walk or write a post again like now:-). It may seem that ‘I’ have found a way to clear ‘my’ mind of hindrances, but this is just wrong thinking. Simply put, if there are conditions for attachment or aversion to arise, they will arise. If I go swimming or write a post, it may be that there no longer is irritation arising, but that’s really because of a complex set of condtions, particularly natural decisive support condition. ... >Does the Satipatthana in the present moment work when > you have wandering mind, that is not steadied internally and quieted? ... S: All these questions indicate the attachment we have to having certain dhammas arising rather than others. Again, it has to be the path of detachment towards whatever is appearing, rather than trying to have a quiet mind and so on. If there’s a ‘wandering mind’, it’s just a momentary element too. Not self. I really have confidence, Tep, that the way all defilements will eventually be eradicated is through the development of understanding, acceptance and detachment, rather than wishing for particular states. .... > <...? > Is it possible that these "points" you have made are ideal, suitable for > advanced practitioners only? ... S: I really think it has to be the right path from the beginning. More and more of our subtle and not so subtle wrong practices, such as trying to have satipatthana arise, have to be seen for what they are. ... >And, is it possible that there are other > practical aspects of the Teachings that have been overlooked,... .... S: More and more I see that if there is understanding of satipatthana and the dhammas to be known directly at this moment, all the practical aspects of the Teachings become apparent. I believe it’s our lack of confidence which leads us to think there must be something else overlooked. Even the value of dana and sila is understood so much more clearly with just a little glimpse of satipatthana. .... <...> > Apparently, Sarah is having trouble believing the major suttas that > give "instructions" to the monks for the practice that leads to > abandonment (pahana) of mental defilements, e.g. MN 20 > (Vitakkasa.n.thaana Sutta) <"When he examines the danger in those > thoughts [i.e. `evil unwholesome thoughts connected with desire, with > hate, and with delusion]..when he tries to forget those thoughts and > does not give attention to them..... <...> S: I believe the Buddha pointed out everything. I may well say to you , like when I started this post, if I feel irritated or something, I just try to forget it, not give attention to those thoughts and carry on. We can say this or read the Buddha’s words, with or without any idea of self. .... > > Indeed there are several other suttas that give instructions for dealing > with kilesas, to abandon them, and to practice such that the mind > is "steadied internally, quieted, brought to singleness, and > concentrated". How can panna work effectively otherwise? ... S: By *understanding* what is good, what is bad, what is the present dhamma appearing. It does its work naturally, not with any self-interference. ... > > Of course, once the mind is calm because of viveka (free from > sensuous things, akusala vitakka, and karmically unwholesome > things) then the Stipatthana in the present moment will have the strong > support needed for it to work well. ... S: I’d put it the other way round. When satipatthana develops, there is viveka, there is calm and so one. This will be the support for the growth of all kinds of kusala and the eventual eradication of akusala, without any idea of self. Metta, Sarah ======== 45313 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma./ Ruupas and Objects of Meditation kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: -------------------------------- > Although I have not read several posted messages here (who can anyway?), I still can recall a good number of them that focus on ruupa, and Htoo and Nina and Sarah etc. have discussed this topic over and over. However, when talking about ruupa as an object of meditation, most theoretical discussers have not done a complete job. ----------------------------------- For various reasons, I would like to suggest that you read all DSG posts, even if that means scanning quickly through some that don't interest you very much. Secondly, I think rupa has been explained quite thoroughly, but you and I, as comparative newcomers to the Abhidhamma, do not absorb all we read. Whenever I gain some new understanding of the Dhamma, I usually realise that I have seen it explained here many times before but without appreciating its meaning. ----------------------------------------------------------- T: > Hasituppada have a broad classification for ruupa. His concern, as well as mine, is on ruupa as an object of meditation. Hasituppada: >All forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, > wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises > in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. ---------------------------------- We clearly have a conflict of definitions here. As Htoo explained, rupas are physical phenomena. Hasituppada, however, is using "rupa" to refer to a category that includes physical phenomena (hardness, heat, sound, the wind element, smell, taste), a mental phenomenon (pain) and concepts (thoughts). ---------------------------------- T: > Htoo responded, "Ruupa never know themselves, their surroundings, naama and anything at all". Tep: Htoo's answer above cannot scratch the spot where it is itching! ------------------------------------------------------------- No, but he was answering the question, "Are those things rupas." Rupas, unlike namas, never experience anything. ------------------------------------------------------------- T: > Hasituppada and Tep want to know why it is wrong to say that all rupas (those given above) may be used as an object of meditation? I believe that, by "meditation", Hasituppada means samatha-vipassana bhavana. ---------------------------------- The rupas that are sense objects can be objects of vipassana bhavana. You have quoted where Htoo listed them as "1. sight, 2. sound, 3. smell, 4. taste, 5. hardness, 6. temperature, and 7. pressure." They are the rupas that appear at the sense doors (and sometimes at the mind-door when they have just fallen away). I *think* I have been told that other rupas can also be known at the mind door, but only by the most advanced practitioners. (As I was saying, most things don't sink in the first one hundred times I hear them.) ----------------------------------- T: > If I am not mistaken, we (Hasituppada and Tep) have been told that any pannatti objects (concepts) cannot be the object of Satipatthana. ------------------------------------ That's right. The Buddha's teaching (satipatthana) is to know the characteristics of conditioned namas and rupas. --------------- T: > Of course, we have been told that any meditation not using an ultimate reality as an object of Satipatthana is worthless. --------------- No, I don't think you have been told that. Wise consideration of anything (concept or reality) is kusala and is therefore accompanied by mental calm. I believe the Buddha recommended four specific objects of samatha meditation - the Buddha, metta, death and foulness. But then again, I haven't been told about them the necessary 100 times, yet. :-) Ken H 45314 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Lisa (Htoo, Connie & camera-shy meditators), Delighted to read your various reflections, pali wanderings, colourful threads and all. --- Lisa wrote: > Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. > > The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind > faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and > ritual sacrifices of animals. He did, integrate some rituals of his > own into his teachings. The Buddha set up rituals that could act as > aids or vehicles in the inner journey towards the discovery of one's > own true nature, a raft to carry us to the other shore so to speak. ... S: If we remember that the only dhammas are cittas, cetasikas and rupas, I think it becomes clearer that wrong practice and rituals (silabbataparamasa) refers to cittas and cetasikas whilst following mental or bodily actions. For example, we may go to the temple and pay our respects with wholesome or unwholesome states of mind. The same actions can be performed with mental states which are reflecting or the Buddha’s virtues, ideas about these actions being the way to have a happier rebirth, or one may just be following one’s friends or family. So rituals cannot simply be judged by the outer appearance. The same with the keys in the bowl. There isn’t any idea that this is the way to have a happy rebirth or develop satipatthana, so it’s not silabbataparamasa. However, if we follow particular actions or mentally attend or focus on certain objects such as our moving feet, thinking this is the way to develop understanding, then silabbataparamasa comes in. It can be very subtle (far more subtle than we realize now, I think). For example, if there is a little awareness and we try to repeat the experience, it’s silabbataparamasa. I know Phil was joking when he said he half-wished his oven door would smash like Nina’s so as to follow the same experiences. That would be a very good example:-). As soon as there is any selection of objects for awareness as opposed to ordinary daily functioning, silabbataparamasa creeps in. For example, in yoga which you and I both do, there can be focusing on the movements with or without any idea of it having anything to do with the Path. The same applies to breathing. One can focus on one’s breath for many reasons, such as for one’s health. When one thinks that focusing on the breath is the way to develop satipatthana, I’d suggest it’s wrong. I agree with all your comments about ‘no control’ and headaches and frustration if one tries:-). Thanks for the reminders to put the keys in the bowl – I really need a lot of key reminders. However, when we read about the function of sati being not to forget, it’s referring to dhammas (realities). Even whilst forgetting the keys, there can be sati which remembers to be aware of seeing, visible object, even forgetfulness at such a time. So it may be frustrating on a conventional level to lose one’s keys, but I don’t see it as any hindrance to the development of sati. I was going to bring in the stringing of the threads of pearls, but they’re not in the bowl either right now – Connie may have seen them;-). I did find the new pic in the members’ album – Connie referred to a ‘significant pic’, but it doesn’t look like her. Is it a ‘taken by surprise’ Lisa I wonder? Very charming, whoever...pls someome solve the mystery. While I’m at it – how come all the meditators are so camera-shy....? Htoo (I know I’ll have to wait for your half-promised visit and then, ‘click, click’:-)), Tep, Hasituppada, Mateesha, Charles D, Alan L.....I forget who else....Any are welcome. Metta, Sarah ========= 45315 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Hasituppada (Charles P), --- hasituppada wrote: > Hasituppada says: > > I thought Kuddhakanikaya was a later addition to Tipitaka. I have > read in many place and even in the Internet that only the > Suttapitaka and the Vinayapitaka were recited at the Council by the > Venerbla Ananda and Venerable Upali. Who read the Abhidhamma Pitaka > at the first Council ? > However, I do not wish to have polmics with you on this question. > If you say so I will accept it on the face value. .... S: I’m not a historian at all, but I do have a lot of confidence in what I read in the ancient commentaries. Back to the commentary to the Vinaya (repeated in others), it states that the Pitakas should be known ‘in their divers aspects: and in accordance with them the word of the Buddha should be understood as being threefold.’ When it comes to the division into Nikayas, there is the fivefold division – DN, MN, SN, AN and Khuddakanikaya. It describes all these in detail, starting with DN. Coming to the last: “What is the Khuddakanikaaya? The rest of the word of the Buddha including the entire Vinaya Pitaka, the Abhidhamma Pitaka, and the fifteen divisions commencing with the Khuddakapaa.tha enumerated earlier, leaving aside the four Nikaayas. The rest of the word of the Buddha, excluding these four nikaayas such as the Diigha, is considered the Khuddakanikaaya. Thus it is fivefold according to (the division into ) Nikaayas.” Then there follows a long description and breakdown into the A”ngas, which I’ve already referred to. According to the commentary, with regard to the Khuddakanikaaya, “the venerable Elder Upaali explained the Vinaya therein and the Elder Aananda the remaining sections of the Khuddakanikaaya and the four Nikaayas.” We then read: “All this forms the word of the Buddha which should be known as uniform in sentiment, twofold as the Dhamma and the Vinaya, threefold according to the first, intermediate, and last words, and similarly as Pi.takas, fivefold according to the Nikaayas, ninefold according to the A”ngas, and forming 84,000 divisions according to the Units of the Dhamma.” Honestly speaking, Hasituppada, when I see modern articles suggesting that the Abhidhamma isn’t the ‘word of the Buddha’ etc, I find they are based on other articles, but I think very few people actually read these ancient commentaries. .... > Hasituppada says: > > Meditation is I think the English translation of the word > Bhavana. "Bhavana" is defined as the cultivation of the mind > (mental cultivation, if you like). ... S: So far so good. ... >Abhidhamma is concerned with the > Paramatta Dhamma, explaining the beings( satta) as a conditioned > reality, a pancakkhandha. In reality there is no identifiable being. .... S: Don’t the suttas teach the same? For example, what does the Khandhasamyutta teach? .... > > Bhavana, is what the Buddha taught, and instructed through the > Mahasatipattana Sutta for the human beings to practice to allow the > purification of mind to attain Nibbana. It could be done now as it > was done before, and could be done in the future. ... S: Yes, not just in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta but throughout the Tipitaka, I’d suggest. Can there be any satipatthana development if there is no understanding of pancakkhandha and no identifiable beings etc? .... > Hasituppada says: > > An advice given to a meditator or if you like a Yogi, at the outset > is to stop reading during or in between meditation sessions. This > is to avoid confusion and mental disturbance. There are periods set > aside for reading or discussion of Dhamma. ... S: I’m familiar with this regimen, but did the Buddha ever say that listening (no reading then:-)) or discussion should be put aside at the outset of bhavana? What about all those who became enlightened whilst listening? In fact aren’t suta maya panna (listening) and cinta maya panna (careful reflecting) the very conditions for bhavana maya panna? .... > Hasituppada says: > > There is no where in the Sutta where the Buddha spoke about a dry > Vipassana. .... S: Did the Buddha ever speak about the 4 or 5 jhanas (or one or two) being essential requisites for all in order to develop vipassana? For example, Visakkha became a sotapanna at the age of 7 and continued to lead a very worldly kind of life. Is there any suggestion that she had attained any jhanas before becoming enlightened? .... >The word "Bhavana" is an all inclusive term that takes > in both Samatha and Vipassana. I think that mind without Samatha is > not purified enough to have insight or penetrate into the anicca > dukkha anatma and open it self to panna. ... S: Let’s just be clear for a moment that there is samatha (tranquility or calm) at each moment of kusala. So at moments of vipassana, there must be samatha. What you are saying is that samatha bhavana must be developed to the degree of jhana first. I think the texts make it clear that when the lokuttara cittas arise, the concentration and accompanying factors such as samma-sankappa are of the degree of jhana by nature of the object (nibbana) automatically. Even if highly developed samatha bhavana were essential first, it can still only be developed with understanding and not by will or concentration. I know there are some differences here and as I said to Howard, I’m glad you’re sharing your opinions and well-considered reflections too. (If you have time, please look at posts under 'Susima Sutta' in U.P) Metta, Sarah > Hasituppada Says: > > What is in a name after all, but this is a moment of Lobha, I love > to be called Hasituppada, what more could you wish to be, more than > a smile of an Arahat !!! .... S: Hmmm – we try to encourage everyone to use real names here, but don't insist as someone may have a very good reason for not doing so..... Like the others, I really hope your tooth-ache has subsided by now and you're able to get attention for it. My sympathies. =========== 45316 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: <...> > I selected b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated, and > you asked : <...> > > e) other – please specifiy <...> > According to the Anattalakkhana sutta, the Buddha said, for example, > about the consciousness aggregate : "...If consciousness were the > self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be > possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness > be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' " > [Same for the other four aggregates..] > > T: Clearly, the Buddha only gave a logical deduction on the self view > of the pancakkhandha that says such a view is wrong and why. ... S: In doing so, he was pointing out the truth about the khandhas which can be directly understood. .. >The > self view, 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self', is a consequence > of the > existence of pancakkhandha in the present moment. ... S: Specifically, a result of ignorance... .... >Such a self view > reflects a wrong attitude - a miccha ditthi, because 'self ' is real > only to > people who have upadana on the aggregates. .... S: I assume you mean the wrong view of self is real. Of course, upadana or craving can be with or without wrong view. A sotapanna has craving, but no wrong view. .... >Because of the anicca > and dukkha characteristics, it does not make sense for anyone to take > the pancakkhandha as me, mine or my self -- therefore, there is nothing > to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion. ... S: Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements (dhatus) which are not in anyone’s conrol or command as the sutta extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the contrary. .... > With or without the wrong attitude about self or the miccha ditthi self > view, the pancakkhandha exists (they are not illusion at all, despite > the > Truth that they are impermanent and so on) and decisions are being > made all the time (the decisions are not illusion either. .... S: Agreed. And can we also agree that any decisions are mere momentary cittas and cetasikas, i.e consisting of the 4 mental khandhas– conditioned dhammas. .... >For example, > President Bush was elected and his decision to invade Iraq was real.) ... S: What are the khandhas or dhammas in your example, would you say? Are President Bush and Iraq realities? What is the decision? What are the condtions for decisions? Following on from this, what makes the choice? Can we agree that thinking is not self, intention is not self, wrong view is not self, effort is not self? Thanks for being such a good sport with the counter-quizes and for all your diplomatic responses:-). I thought your detailed qus to Nina were very good and all your other Abhidhamma enquiries. Metta, Sarah ====== 45317 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& James) --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG members - > > The Introduction post lists 10 (I - X) knowledge groups like the "eight > kinds of knowledge of obstacles" and the "seventy-two kinds of > knowledge through insight", for example. The book provides the Pali > of some terms in the INDEX, from which I have extracted to present > below. Forgive me for not having the appropriate Pali fonts. > > knowledge = naana; obstacle = paripantha; imperfection = > uppakkilesa; cleansing = vodaana; mindfulness = sati. > concentration = samaadhi; insight = vipassanaa; dispassion = > nibbidaa; conformity = anuloma; tranquillizing = patipassadhi. > pleasure = sukha; deliverance = vimutti. The Thai version says that the > Pali for aids is uppakara. .... S: All these notes you gave (and those snipped) are very helpful. Maybe you can just paste them with each extract if applicable so we don't need to hunt around each time:-). I was looking for 'Grounds' as in 16 grounds...do you have any idea? Is it vatthu - bases or sth? (can't see it in the English text). Btw, James, really liked the extract from Qus of K.Milinda on panna (wisdom). Very relevant and as usual, Tep, you gave a good summary. James, I think all the bodhpakkhiya dhammas you quoted refer to dhammas or Dhammas -- whether in Suttanta or Abhidhamma. Maybe we use dhammas in a different way and I know you don't wish to discuss these topics with me. I hope one day you'll be able to continue your discussion together:-). Metta, Sarah ====== 45318 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. ...] sarahprocter... Hi Tep (& Larry), Butting in....such a good thread. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > How do you see a reality as a reality, not seeing and knowing > concepts? Say, right now in this very moment, a cow is walking along... ... S: And what is seen? Only visible object. Either there is or isn't awareness of the visible object. Then attending to the signs and details (nimitta, anupyanjanna), the idea of a cow walking along and so on..other dhammas, more visible objects, sounds and so on, further concepts... ... > > How are you supposed to see a rupa in the cow? ... S: What's seen is merely visible object. If you touch the cow, merely tactile object such as hardness, heat and so on. it's seen as it's always been seen, no differently. Usually there's no awareness though and we really think we see a cow! .... >If you sense a > sanna of a past cow arising that moment, is that realizing the > sanna "the correct way" according to Abhidhamma? ... S: Sounds like thinking. ... >Or, would you > contemplate the 4 mahabhuta-dhatu making up the cow as being > impermanent and anatta ? ... S: More thinking - rightly or wrongly depending.... Metta, Sarah p.s Htoo and Tep, Gacchanto etc, Satipatthana tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities. Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken." ... S: characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas to be known, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on. ========= 45319 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:11am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: Hi Htoo, I don't understand your argument. If something is real it must be capable of being an object of consciousness. If "with" is real then consciousness must potentially have two objects. If the 4 _together_ are real then some consciousness must be able to perceive them together. Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry and any members who are interested, You made the discussion more difficult. OK. Now when you read this message of my reply just take 'the following example' for current discussion. 'Now I see computer screen'.' Example is 'cakkhuvinnana citta'. Leave all other cittas. That citta just know 'light' and nothing more than that. So its object is 'light'. When that citta arises, there are 2 rupas. One is 'light' which is serving as 'visual object' or rupa-arammana. Another rupa is cakkhu-pasada rupa. Cakkhuvinnana citta does not know cakkhu-pasada rupa but it knows 'rupa- arammana', here 'light'. There arise contact. That contact or phassa is co-incidence and cakkhuvinna citta does not see 'that contact' or 'that phassa'. But cakkhuvinnana sees 'rupa-arammana' only. I do not know why you made this complicated. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45320 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma./ Ruupas and Objects of Meditation htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Htoo, Hasituppada, Larry, Howar, KenH, KenO ..etc. - Hasituppada: >All forms, feelings like, softness, hardness pain, hot and cold, wind on your body, a sound, a smell, a taste, a thought that arises in the mind are all rupas which could be an object of meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and Hasituppada, This is 2nd time that I heard 'thoughts are ruupa' said by Hasituppada. I think this stems from language matter. I think, Hasituppada has been thinking that 'anything that can be known by mind are ruupa'. Isn't that true, Hasituppada? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep wrote: Htoo responded, " Ruupa never know themselves, their surroundings, naama and anything at all". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is quite clear. 1. Ruupa do not know ruupa. 2. Ruupa do not know their surroundings, livings or non-livings. 3. Ruupa do not know naama dhamma. 4. Ruupa do not know anything at all Because ruupa do not have the faculties to know. The faculty to know is not characteristic of ruupa. It is characterstic of citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Htoo's answer above cannot scratch the spot where it is itching! Hasituppada and Tep want to know why it is wrong to say that all rupas (those given above) may be used as an object of meditation? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry, I have snipped away some parts. Regarding object of meditation, this will depend on what type of meditation it is. If satipatthaana, or vipassanaa then all the object have to be naama or ruupa. This is right. Because naama do not last long. Ruupa do not last long. They both pass away. This is a character of both naama and ruupa. Without this character, no one will develop higher wisdom for release or liberation. Pannatti is not ruupa. So pannatti is not the object of satipatthaana or vipassana meditation. Object-wise pannatti can serve as the object of meditation but not vipassana. When vipassana has to be involved, pannatti is no more the object and naama or ruupa become the object of meditation. Even in mahaasatipatthaana sutta there are many pannatti but essence is to direct at naama or ruupa. This can be seen in the sutta (DN 22) if each and every Pali word in that sutta is thoroughly understood. Otherwise there will be endless argumentations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: I believe that, by "meditation", Hasituppada means samatha-vipassana bhavana. Htoo in the message # 44977 stated firmly that there were 7 types of "first-hand object", namely : 1. sight, 2. sound, 3. smell, 4. taste, 5. hardness, 6. temperature, and 7. pressure. Other rupas outside this group are non-first-hand objects, and they are pannatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Correction here. 7 ruupas are always first hand object. But what I said above 'they are pannatti' is secondment of those 1st hand object. To completely apperceive as 'computer', which is right now in front of so called 'me' , there have to be many many many cittas. As computer is the final one, it is never 1st hand object. :-)) I do not know who is itchy. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: If I am not mistaken, we (Hasituppada and Tep) have been told that any pannatti objects (concepts) cannot be the object of Satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: Of course, we have been told that any meditation not using an ultimate reality as an object of Satipatthana is worthless. Is my understanding above right or wrong? Anyone who cares to answer, please do. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I always care. Worthless here needs to be stick to development of vipassana naana. Pannatti is not for vipassana naana. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45321 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/9/05 12:03:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Howard: "I experience one thing, then another, then another - and I *concoct* motion." Hi Howard, I very much agree we experience one thing at a time, but this goes in a very plodding, jerky pace. Motion is smooth and uninterrupted within the crude fits and starts of attention. It is very hard to believe you experience motion in frames, but even if you do I would be inclined to attribute that to a peculiar visual skill in being able to spot details in the movement of an object. I think this says more about the versatility of consciousness than the nature of motion. It is actually stopping motion rather than concocting it. Larry ===================== Well, I make no presumptions about the nature (or even the existence) of an external world, but speak only experientially. Now, a very gradually changing stream of experiences with each "frame" gaplessly following the preceding will not seem chopped up except to a meditatively extremely well trained mind. Our ordinary minds construct (I believe) experiential continuity from actual experiential contiguity. If I'm not mistaken, modern experimental psychology, for whatever this is worth, confirms this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45322 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings12 - More on Prescribing and Strategi es upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/9/05 3:09:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: <....> >S: We discussed how when there isn’t any development of satipatthana now, > we > keep thinking about what actions to take, how to cope or what to do in > various situations. However, the thinking is always about the future or > past. At the same time, the development of understanding is being > postponed by thinking and yet more thinking at these times. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't get what you are pointing out here. > -------------------------------- S: I was trying to say that whilst we keep thinking about what we should do, how we should behave (or should have behaved) and when we should develop bhavana (meditation), we are lost in stories about future or past concepts rather than actually being aware of what is real right now. ------------------------------- Howard: I get your point, Sarah. But sometimes thinking and planning is necessary. We are not at the stage of wisdom being so well developed that we can afford to skip plodding thinking and planning activities. ------------------------------- Really, I’d like to quote back some of your own excellent comments (to Tep): You wrote: “My understanding is that when the mind is engaged in thinking, which is something that goes on “allâ€? the time(!), it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas.........but those “thingsâ€? are not actually occurring things at all any more than a unicorn is, but are merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed.......etcâ€? And then “So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc that are not, themselves, thought process-produced but which serve as the basis for our perceiving of a “gingko treeâ€?......â€? In just the same way, the thoughts about how to behave or what actions to take in future (or those taken in the pas)t are ‘not actually occurring things at all’. There can be awareness now of the ‘hardness sensations, odors, and sights’ or the thinking if they appear, one at a time, but not of the various concepts. When satipatthana begins to develop, there is less inclination to think about future and past bhavana. I hope this makes sense. -------------------------------- Howard: It does, but so does the point about the need for us to stop, think, consider, and plan. At our stage, not doing so frequently leaves us vulnerable to our own defilements. -------------------------------- ..... >S: A friend also raised other examples of suttas which seem to be > suggesting > strategies to follow at times of strong akusala (unwholesome states), <...> > Howard: > What is your point here, Sarah? > ----------------------------------- S: (btw, I included your name because I remembered you had discussed this sutta before). I think my point follows below: <...> >S: Indeed the Buddha is always stressing panna whilst describing and giving > examples such as these. However,the panna knows that in fact, ‘we’ > do > whatever conditions dictate. Whatever happens, whatever action is taken, > is completely conditioned. So panna has to understand whatever the > dhamma > (reality) is at any given time so that insight can develop. This is > ‘bhaavanaa mayaa pa~n~naa’ – the real development of satipatthana. .... S: We all have our own ways of behaving or tendencies/strategies for coping. These are conditioned in complex ways, but the purpose is to understand, to develop detachment, towards dhammas arising and appearing now. Whilst we continue to believe that ‘we’ can make them be a certain way or that intentions can somehow be controlled, satipatthana won’t be developing. Let me stress that this doesn’t mean that certain ways of behaviour aren’t good and others not good. On the contrary, good is seen as good and bad is seen as bad, more and more precisely, I believe. .... > Howard: > The Buddha repeatedly gave instructions for practice, and he urged > their > carrying out. Thius is so eminently clear that it boggles my mind how > some > folks strain to see the matter otherwise. > ---------------------------------- S: Yes, he gave instructions. He left the Dhamma and his instruction was to take refuge in it, to develop satipatthana by following the eightfold Path. However, it is right understanding and the other path factors which do the developing when there has been sufficient wise reflection about present namas and rupas to be known. .... > S: Panna has to develop with detachment, not with an idea of self that is > following strategies or trying hard to be aware and control actions. It > has to also develop with patience to know what isn’t known, not with > attachment to having awareness arise often. > --------------------------------- > Howard: > All development has to start from where we are, and not from where > we > hope to be. One who is without idea of self has already made > considerable > progress. ... S: One who is without any idea of self is a sotapanna already. To reach this stage, the understanding has to develop step by step. ... >The process doesn't begin at that stage, for that stage has to > first be > attained. We start, in fact, in the midst of ignorance, and we must > engage in the > practice taught by the Buddha to get oneself off ground zero. ... S: I agree about the midst of ignorance (or the mist of ignorance for that matter). Again, it is the development of awareness which begins by being aware of dhammas so that panna can know there’s no self to get ‘off ground zero’ at all. .... >S: The most important thing is that it should be the right > path at this moment. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > To be the *right* path, it must be *some* path. With no path, one > just > does what feels good and remains enmeshed in craving and ignorance > forever. > -------------------------------------- S: Even no path is better than wrong path:-). Even whilst ‘enmeshed in craving and ignorance’ like for much of the day, awareness can and does begin to develop. If we hadn’t heard about these qualities or heard that they are dhammas, not self, it would be impossible for awareness to develop. But, we’ve heard a lot about them, we’ve heard a lot about seeing consciousness and visible object and other sense objects, so that awareness can slowly perform its function. It can be aware of seeing now if conditions allow, but it can never make seeing arise or more awareness for that matter. As soon as there is any craving or wish to have more or quicker awareness, or attempts to make it arise, there’s likely to silabbataparamasa again, I think. Howard, I know you will again disagree with many of these comments and I respect that you just point out differences as you see them. I don’t mind at all and am just glad to see you contributing to these threads again. As I said, I particularly liked your comments on concepts and realities. I look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45323 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:32am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Howard, Hasituppada, KenH, Sukiner, Nina and others - I'd like to tell you a story that may explain why walking meditation can be both samatha (tranquillity) and vipassana(insight), based on my own experience. The best time for my meditation is early in the morning. Before starting the walking I stand very still for a few minutes, gathering all attention and mindfulness to the front and letting go of all thoughts, then I start the walking meditation along a path back and forth. Sometimes, I can walk with mindfulness and clear comprehension, with the mind staying within the body, then there is no wandering thought about the past or the future; there is no concern about time or about anything -- the whole attention and awareness is completely within the body. I am fully aware that now I am walking forward, now I stop and turn around, now I am standing, and now I am walking back. The beginning and the ending of the walking and the standing are known with full awareness. When I am fully aware of each movement of the body (walking, stopping, standing, turning back) and when I know its begining and its ending, that is knowing ruupa. Then there are gladness and calm (these are nama) arising, and I am fully aware of them when they arise and when they persist. That is knowing nama. Because the mind is concentrated and calm now; that is samatha. Sometimes, there is a clear knowing that this is an aggregate of ruupa and that knowing is supported by clear comprehension and mindfulness, There is also a knowing that the ruupa and nama are separate -- the nama knows, the ruupa is known, and they are not the same; that is vipassana. Question: What do you think of the above experience of mine, and have you got similar one to share with us? Thanks. Respectfully yours, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, Ken H, Sukinder, Nina + all interested DSG members - > > Thank you for bouncing back again and again to explain, simplify > further, to provide more necessary details, and to even go back to the > very beginning, despite being rejected now and then. Htoo, you've > more patience that Tep does. I will take you as another good example > to follow. > > Your exaplanation on walking meditation, using DN 22 (or MN 10) as > support, is now complete. I have its summary below: > > Hatoo: > > >Pa-janati = to know well; I interpreted this as 'to know detail'. > >Bhikkhu who has been well trained by The Buddha knows when > > he goes as he goes. ...Even when he knows that he goes, > >his knowing is not free of self-identity. [Htoo then described > > walking meditation, during which the yogi has clear comprehension > > of the detailed leg movements and the accompaniying > >arising/passing away sensations] ...he knows all the detail > > as 'they are ruupa' and > > they each disappear at each stages and he sees them (ruupa) > > as impermanence. His knowing on these ruupa also vanishes > > and he also sees them (naama) as impermanence. > > That is indeed my practice too. > > Respectfully with warm regards, > > > Tep > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > Jananti and pajanati are different word. The Buddha said in > > mahasatipatthana as 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajanati'. > > > > Jananti and pajanati are explained below. > > > > Jananti means 'know' and pa+janati means 'know in details' or 'know > > well'. > > > > > > >(snipped) > > > But well instructed bhikkhu knows that > > > > 'my heel starts to be lighter' 'my heel more lighter' 'my heel > > rises' 'my heel clears the ground' 'my knee bends' 'my thigh swings > > forward' 'my thigh becomes heavy' 'my leg mecomes more > heavier' 'my > > heel drops' 'my heel touches the ground' 'my heel rests on the > > ground' 'my body rests on my heel' 'I stand on my heel' 'my another > > heel become lighter' '..and the cycle continues. > > > > He the bhikkhu does not need to cite or say these. But he knows all > > the detail as 'they are ruupa' and they each disappear at each > stages > > and he sees them (ruupa) as impermanence. His knowing on these > ruupa > > also vanishes and he also sees them (naama) as impermanence. > > With Metta, > > (snipped) > > > > Htoo Naing 45324 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:32am Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada foamflowers Dear KenH, I found it curious that self keeps coming up over and over again and it is the two I found it curious that self keeps coming up over and over again and it is the two extremes, self and no-self. I was taught anatta means not self. An article from Access To Insight, No-self or Not-self? by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html He seems it up very nicely here at the end of this very short article: In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [kenh] It is a pity that we disagree, but at least we know where we > disagree. I say there is nothing more to the Dhamma than knowing the > present reality: you say there *is* something more. The present Moment or Absolute is beyond concepts and I find the word moment limiting, it actually means a unit of time. But I do understand what you mean, Moment with a large 'M' >[kenh] I think this is also where 99% of modern-day Buddhists > disagree with the ancient Theravadin texts. I am grateful that > you, and others like you, have joined DSG to discuss our dinosaur > version of the Dhamma. [lisah]That is a fallacy, where is the data you qoute from? Generalizations are dangerous in my limited opinioon. > > >[kenh]Agreed. We non-arahants have impure minds. Even in rare moments of > kusala kamma there are latent tendencies for akusala, and so the > wheel of suffering is kept turning. [lisah] you make it seem impossible to walk away from the cycle of suffering, it is possible to achieve the end of suffering in this very life time. I know this from experience although I am a common every day person my suffering is not so heavy and it is much easier to move. Your message seems very disheartening. I used to suffer from panic attacks, anxiety, and night terrors. Now I move through the day with much more ease and no more night terrors, panic attacks or generalized anxiety. All done without taking a pill, I just sat and watched everything come and go with a focused mind and didn't react. Oh and I faced my fears in meditation and in daily life, which has become my meditation too. >[kenh] However, this is nothing to get upset about because there is >only > the present moment. Outside of the present five khandhas, there is > nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - > anywhere - for it to have any effect on. [lisah] no-self that is saying there is no being there at all is an extreme view and I can't find the quote right now but it is even said in the Pali Canon, it's just the other side of saying there is a self. > > Sorry to be picky, but only arahants have neutral kamma, and so I > doubt we can have neutral habits. > > > That sounds like an onerous duty. It reminds me of Shakespeare's > Hamlet: "Oh cursed spite, That ever I was born to set it right." > > Fear not, H, there are only dhammas here. They are fleeting, > conditioned, impersonal phenomena, and not worth obsessing over. > > > I don't want to convert you: I just want you to know that there is > another side to the story. When you are writing, there is no writer > and there is no writing: there are only dhammas. Some dhammas > perform the function of thinking, and they create the illusion > of "writer" and "writing." > > > Here, the ultimate story is slightly different. To paraphrase the > Abhidhamma; 'Mere seeing exists but no seer is found.' Seeing is > eye-consciousness, which is a paramattha dhamma. While you have been > reading this message, countless eye-consciousnesses have arisen, > performed their functions, and fallen away. > > [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. "Who am I?" the Buddha included it in a list of dead-end questions that lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, [you] don't gain freedom from birth, aging, and death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair." In other words, any attempt to answer either of these questions is unskillful karma, blocking the path to true freedom. [lisah]The point of Gotama's teacings is to unbind us from wrong views, that is anything that is pannatti? The Abhidhamma distinguishes two kinds of pannatti. One is called nama-pannatti. It refers to names, words, signs, or symbols through which things, real or unreal, are designated: "It is the mere mode of recognizing (sannakaramatta) by way of this or that word whose significance is determined by worldly convention". It is created by worldly consent (loka-sanketa-nimmita) and established by worldly usage (lokavoharena siddha). The other, called attha-pannatti, refers to ideas, notions or concepts corresponding to the names, words, signs, or symbols. interpretative function of the mind (kappana) and is based on the various forms or appearances presented by the real elements (dhammas) when they are in particular situations or positions (avattha-visesa). Both nama-pannatti and attha-pannatti thus have a psychological origin and as such both are devoid of objective reality. Nama-pannatti is often defined as that which makes known (pannapanato pannatti) and attha-pannatti as that which is made known (pannapiyata pannatti). The former is an instance of agency-definition (kattu-sadhana) and the latter of object-definition (kammasadhana). What both attempt to show is that nama-pannatti which makes attha-pannatti known, and attha-pannatti which is made known by nama-pannatti, are mutually inter-dependent and therefore logically inseparable. [lisah] this is a thicket of views, don't stay long or you may get lost! With Metta, Lisa 45325 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:22am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Dear Htoo, Howard, Hasituppada, KenH, Sukiner, Nina and others - I'd like to tell you a story that may explain why walking meditation can be both samatha (tranquillity) and vipassana(insight), based on my own experience. Sometimes, there is a clear knowing that this is an aggregate of ruupa and that knowing is supported by clear comprehension and mindfulness, There is also a knowing that the ruupa and nama are separate -- the nama knows, the ruupa is known, and they are not the same; that is vipassana. Question: What do you think of the above experience of mine, and have you got similar one to share with us? Thanks. Respectfully yours, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and all, As I am on the same activities I do know what you are describing. What is important is that there is no discontinuity in naana or wisdom. If you really reached higher stages, you will have been printed with a seal called sotapatti magga or above. Otherwise there always is discontinuity. There is no particular time that naama and ruupa are clearly distinguished. So it starts with the first consciousness till the last consciousness in a day just before slipping into deep sleep. DSG will say that 'understanding' is important and will deny special activities. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45326 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:47am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma./ Ruupas and Objects of Meditation htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, No, I don't think you have been told that. Wise consideration of anything (concept or reality) is kusala and is therefore accompanied by mental calm. I believe the Buddha recommended four specific objects of samatha meditation - the Buddha, metta, death and foulness. But then again, I haven't been told about them the necessary 100 times, yet. :-) Ken H -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Ken H, Tep, Hasituppada and all, I think DSG is a site for Dhamma studying. So it is named as dhamma- study-group. I myself have been taught many times. Hasituppada, I would suggest to read 'rupa' at useful posts under files section. There are 28 paramattha rupas. 16 are subtle rupas and can only appear at manodvara or mind-door through thinking. 5 pasada rupas or 5 sense- sentivities called cakkhu/eye, sota/ear, ghana/nose, jivha/tongue, kaya/body also appear at mind door only. The physical eyes that we have is not cakkha-pasada even those they serve as the ground for cakkhu pasada rupa and so do other 4 pasada rupas. 28 - (16+5) = 7 rupas Only these 7 rupas work as grossly physical and easy to recognise through 5 sense doors. What are these 7 rupas. They are 1. sight (rupa-rupa) 2. sound (sadda-rupa) 3. smell (ghanda-upa) 4. taste (rasa-rupa) 5. photthabba (photthabba-rupa) 5. hardness (pathavi) 6. temperature (tejo) 7. pressure (vayo) Only these 7 rupas work as 1st hand object. All other objects are secondary. We only know them because of The Buddha's teachings. Otherwise we will never know them as they are. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45327 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:57am Subject: Re: eka.m puggala.m piya.m manaapa.m - Tiktak* htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: to all the dear mothers, then, Lisa ! May we all live vyaapaadapadosa.m pahaaya - having abandoned ill will and hatred. Mettaasahagatena - accompanied by amity. Thanks, Htoo. You know, I have trouble understanding everyone - how we all talk together and misunderstanding comes up quicker than it goes away, even when we think we agree. 'Pa.n.natti has no character' - beautiful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Connie, yes pannatti does not have any character and so also are right for function, manifestations and causes. So there is no beautiful pannatti. Example; she is beautiful. As there is no 'she', there is no beautiful thing. I am thinking why you wrote this post. As usual your posts are like poematic. But I think I picked up the right piece of message from your poematic thread-ball. With Metta, Htoo Naing But I think the well instructed monk knows there is no my surviving foot > in all this coming and going, just things "come about merely by means of > the diffusion of the air element through the action of consciousness" and > such. > > No summer meditation group. Pali-Girl says I am to give her lessons on > citta meanwhile anyway. Maybe Mary? Uhhh, can I practice clear > comprehension in talking? > > Herein, when there is no occurrence of the derived materiality of the > sound base, there is no talking; when it occurs there is, and the bhikkhu > who lays hold in this way is one who practises clear comprehension in > talking. And teaching the dhamma keeping the sphere of deliverance > uppermost in mind, one who abandons the 32 kinds of low (lit. "animal") > talk and speaks what is based on the ten bases for discourse (see M iii > 113; A iv 352, 357; v 67, 128-30; Ndi 220-1, 472) is one who practises > clear comprehenion in talking.> > > I hardly remember anything I said a few weeks ago at the comparative > religions class. Not sure what the guy meant asking whether a buddhist > could be "normal", but I took it to mean "layman". > > Is spaced out when you realize you've walked home and the car is still > downtown? HAHAHA... when we were leaving, I asked JozaiDog didn't he want > to go and he just looked back at Dinah sitting in the car, shook his head > no at me & kept heading back to the house. He wasn't too crazy about > sticking around her place after the big KAboom and all the other day. > > peace, > connie > > *Significant photo 45328 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:02am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Nina and Htoo, > The best source for these, I think, is the Atthasaalinii. I'm working on a > series of 'flash cards' including just these data but must wait till I get a > copy of the Ats. to finish. I'll keep dsg posted for anyone interested in > these. > > mike -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Mike, Thanks and i appreciate your effort. When you finish flash cards could you please post it to DSG. With regards, Htoo Naing 45329 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:29am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause htootintnaing Dear Lisa, You wrote: I want to wade into this too--Hi everyone! Htoo, I'm still working on what ritual means to me...I will post this coming week. Thanks again for wading through my questions and pointing out the strong and weak spots. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am just on communication mode. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Some of my notes I've been taking on this subject, please be free with your corrections! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I usually said, I will not be correcting but I will be discussing. Thanks for freeing on discussions without limitations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Two levels of reality paramattha and pannatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Panatti is not reality. So it does not include in the level as you said. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Paramattha, that which is independent of cognition, that which cannot be seen by the eye or be felt but that which can be understood by consciousness like sensation, cool, hard, soft, pushing, tight, stiff, movement, pain, numb and so on (sensations?). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Paramattha is the sense that is directly sensed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Pannatti, cannot exist without the cognative functions that which is seen by the eye, felt, tasted, touched and so on.[+ hear, smell :Htoo] (1) nama-pannatti=names+words+signs+symbols=designated things, which can be real or unreal (sannakaramatta)=mode of recognizing, worldly convention. loka-sanketa-nimmita+lokavoharena siddha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is sadda-pannatta rather than nama-pannatta. Example; 'One' which is designated as the first number in a series of 1 to 9 is said with different 'voice' by different languages. But the pannatta is the same. Examples are One, Uno, Ichi, Yee, Eka etc. These are diufferent sadda- pannatta or different sounding-names but all represent only a single thing, which is '1'. So they all are nama-pannatta as you said or sadda-pannatta. But 'One' as a number as understood by all nations is a single pannatta and it is called 'attha-pannatta'. When we check with primary sense organ, there is nothing which is 'One' at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: (2)attha-pannatti=ideas, notions, concepts corresponding to names, words, signs, or symbols, that is the mind which functions as the interpreter (kappana) and appearances or forms which arise from the (dhammas) elements depending on situations or positions (avattha-visesa). Nama Pannatti and attha-pannatti are psychological in their nature reality and are not part of that which does not depend on our existence and the way of performing observations. Pannatti= don't spend to much time with pannatti (personal opinion) just know it for what it is and move on. This understanding helps condition the next movement to the next level paramattha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Pannatti is just a vehicle to transport paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: I think there is a danger of getting lost in the details of Pannatti, once understood I should look for what is not conditioned which is pure sensation or feeling? So motion would be the pure sensation of walking, that light and heavy feeling going through the body in an split second as one moves legs up and down, kind of like the feeling when one rides in an elevator except it happens in a nano second (the nama and rupa meet and flash..bling-bling) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are 4 rupa dhaatus and 3 of them can directly be sensed by the body. When you walk what you know at your body are these dhaatus but you cannot sense apo or water element directly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: A cow the reality of a cow would be the pure sensation of a cow when we look at it or smell it or taste it, touch it and so on (hahaha), ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Right. You can mock and you can be amused at any stage of your development. But there always are kamma along with each and every action. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: then the name or symbol we give that sensation and then all the other stuff that follows a name which could be memories, worries, anger, happiness, indifference and so on. With Metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There are different series of procession-cittas and they run in a matter of split second. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45330 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:33am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: I forgot to add the last part of my little note... > > Pannatti= don't spend to much time Add on to this part.....I therefore understand why I lift my leg and set it down and also understand the cause of this lifting of the leg. and setting it down. I know when I stand and the cause of why I stand, I know why I walk and the cause of why I walk...it is the nama and the rupa coming together--bling-bling ( all the jewerly and flashy, fancy stuff money can buy--bling-bling) and I know why I walk and why I stand, plus I get a kick out of being able to watch sensation without hooking all that other stuff onto it. Walking becomes very light and fun to just watch! Nana go lightly...lol With metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Lisa, As I said in the previous post, there always are kamma as soon as actions are taken. The Buddha's Dhamma is not to be mocked. But you have your own right. As that is true, it is also true that kamma have their own right. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45331 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 8:46am Subject: Dhamma Thread (352) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Tare 3 kamma depending on the door where kamma are done. These 3 kamma are 1. kaaya kamma or bodily action 2. vacii kamma or verbal action 3. mano kamma or mental action Among 3 kama-dvara, there are 3 akusala kamma that are frequentlky committed at kaaya dvara or body door. These 3 akusala kaaya kamma are 1. killing 2. stealing 3. wrong-practising of sex Among these 3 akusala kaaya kamma, killing is committed by dosa muula cittas in most occasions. But in some occasions, killing may be committed by lobha muula cittas. Example lobha cittas that arise while killing are cittas in killing while hunting. Examples birds may be very very happy when they kill worms. Because they are having food for their survival and the killing satietiate their wishes to feed their body. Stealing is mostly committed by lobha muula cittas. Because stealing itself is related with greediness. But there are occasions that stealing is committed by dosa muula cittas. Examples are that someone steals so that he may see the distress of the owner. Here the action is stealing. But the intention is different from his wanting on the properties. It is directed to dosa or aversion which wants the enemies to be in despair because of stealing. Again wrongful sex are mostly committed by lobha muula cittas. But in some occasions these akusala kamma are committed by dosa mula cittas or aversive mind. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45332 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:37am Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Tep), Sarah: James, I think all the bodhpakkhiya dhammas you quoted refer to dhammas or Dhammas -- whether in Suttanta or Abhidhamma. James: The Bodhpakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma? I wouldn't think so since they deal with conventional items and not *ultimate reality*, but you would be the expert in that regard. If you say they are in the Abhidhamma then I stand corrected. Sarah: Maybe we use dhammas in a different way and I know you don't wish to discuss these topics with me. James: Who is *we* that use dhammas in a different way? What do you mean you know I don't want to discuss dhammas with you? I never said that did I? I stopped one thread with you about wrong views because it was going round and round and getting nowhere, but that doesn't mean I never want to discuss anything with you (now, I did say that about Jon because Jon gives me the creeps somehow and I lose my equanimity with him; but maybe that is just because he and I have had conflicts in a previous lifetime? I don't think he likes me very much either. But he is very nice to everyone else and he knows the dhamma quite well.). Anyway, I wouldn't want to argue endlessly about any subject, but you can tell me about any references you have in regards to dhammas. I like to learn new things about the dhamma. Sarah: I hope one day you'll be able to continue your discussion together:-). James: I wouldn't mind discussing with Tep again; but he seems afraid of me- which I find rather strange because I was agreeing with him for the most part! Anyway, maybe one day we can discuss again. Metta, James 45333 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 10:17am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause foamflowers Define Mock: treat with contempt; "The new constitution mocks all democratic principles" the act of mocking or ridiculing; "they made a mock of him" imitate with mockery and derision; "The children mocked their handicapped classmate" constituting a copy or imitation of something; "boys in mock battle" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn --------------------------------------------------------------- You cannot see my face, my laughter is in delight of understanding this difficult subject and the words I use are not of your culture (bling-bling). I will try and keep my words limited to Abhidhamma and pali. To taste a cow...I should give you a visual, tongue on the hide of a cow (hahahaha)...you can't read my mind so again I will contain my humor. Plus my nick name has been Nana for a very long time, the name of my business in which I sell my art is "Nana Go Lightly" I had no idea what nana meant in a Buddhist context until just recently. Also my investigation and questioning can be uncomfortable and seem flippant. Sorry if I give the impression that I do not care but I cannot control how you see or react, but I can be more careful how I throw my words around. I know you are not discomforted because I sense your equanimity is strong and that you truly do care about me and everyone else who studies Dhamma. With Metta, Lisa > I forgot to add the last part of my little note... > > > > Pannatti= don't spend to much time > > > > Add on to this part.....I therefore understand why I lift my leg and > set it down and also understand the cause of this lifting of the leg. > and setting it down. I know when I stand and the cause of why I stand, > I know why I walk and the cause of why I walk...it is the nama and the > rupa coming together--bling-bling ( all the jewerly and flashy, fancy > stuff money can buy--bling-bling) and I know why I walk and why I > stand, plus I get a kick out of being able to watch sensation without > hooking all that other stuff onto it. Walking becomes very light and > fun to just watch! Nana go lightly...lol > > With metta, > Lisa > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Htoo: > > Dear Lisa, > > As I said in the previous post, there always are kamma as soon as > actions are taken. The Buddha's Dhamma is not to be mocked. But you > have your own right. As that is true, it is also true that kamma have > their own right. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45334 From: "Lisa" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Lisa (Htoo, Connie & camera-shy meditators), > > Delighted to read your various reflections, pali wanderings, colourful >> > While I'm at it – how come all the meditators are so camera- shy....? > Htoo (I know I'll have to wait for your half-promised visit and then, > `click, click':-)), > Tep, Hasituppada, Mateesha, Charles D, Alan L.....I forget who else....Any > are welcome. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= Dear Sarah, Yes that is me, caught by surprise last summmer! I love that picture because I usually avoid the camera and I think I found a picture that expresses all that nama and rupa coming together. I would also like to see some more pics of others too. S: If we remember that the only dhammas are cittas, cetasikas and rupas, I think it becomes clearer that wrong practice and rituals (silabbataparamasa) refers to cittas and cetasikas whilst following mental or bodily actions. L: I'm starting to understand this formula and I can follow you on this to a limited point but until I can put it in my own words with ease I know I don't truly understand it on a intellectual level. S: Thanks for the reminders to put the keys in the bowl – I really need a lot of key reminders. However, when we read about the function of sati being not to forget, it's referring to dhammas (realities). Even whilst forgetting the keys, there can be sati which remembers to be aware of seeing, visible object, even forgetfulness at such a time. So it may be frustrating on a conventional level to lose one's keys, but I don't see it as any hindrance to the development of sati. L: The remembering that is Sati is also tied to visual perception? And is it also that, which knows what is sensation or feeling before labels, names, and other fabrications are set into action? I will get into my books tonight and figure this out. I know there is a bunch of information on this site and also in my own reference books, no need to answer back if time is limited Sarah. Sati is not the name of the keys or bowl or the idea or thoughts that this is the way I will not lose my keys if they are in the bowl by the door, that is very empty I have found that kind of mindfulness worth while help get to work on time because I know where my keys are lol. S: So rituals cannot simply be judged by the outer appearance. The same with the keys in the bowl. There isn't any idea that this is the way to have a happy rebirth or develop satipatthana, so it's not silabbataparamasa. L: I will go more into ritual as I explore what it means to me as I walk through this bewildering area of sense data in Buddhism. I must look up the word silabbataparamasa, I know what sila means in addition I must look the word up so I can understand your message more deeply. S: I was going to bring in the stringing of the threads of pearls, but they're not in the bowl either right now – Connie may have seen them;-). L: I will try and be patient...lol looks for Connie. Lunch break is over back to work...I have to go over to Court today and untangle some issues for my Boss. Thank you every so much for you patience and kindness Sarah and also Htoo and Tep. With Metta, Lisa 45335 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:09am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation>4.proximate cause htootintnaing Dear Lisa, Thanks for your reply and education on 'mock'. Maybe that words that appear on the net are interpreted in many different ways. I just replied in a way that a test has already been with it. I did that because I want to know more how people use words in different ways. I am still learning. Especially languages. Senses (not abhidhamma senses) are understood differently in different societies. Especially laughter matters are difficult ones. Let me give you an example. Once there was a group of people who speak a specific language. Some of them have learnt another language and they can well understand. One day a man from that another society who speaks different language come to that group of people. They arrange for a talk. There is a man in that group of people. He is much much more proficient than those who leanrt other language. In that ceremony of talk he acts as a translator. The man from other society gives a talk and in that talk there is a piece of luahgter. No one understand 'the laughter' even though some, who learnt the language know what the meanings are. Even the translator does not laugh. But as soon as he has finished his translation all the audience laugh. The speaker asked the translator why people did not laugh earlier. The man said, 'I do not know'. Then 'what did you say finally?' asked the speaker. I just told them you speak 'a laughter'. Actually I just saw your expression in words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: Define Mock: treat with contempt; "The new constitution mocks all democratic principles" the act of mocking or ridiculing; "they made a mock of him" imitate with mockery and derision; "The children mocked their handicapped classmate" constituting a copy or imitation of something; "boys in mock battle" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: You cannot see my face, my laughter is in delight of understanding this difficult subject and the words I use are not of your culture (bling-bling). I will try and keep my words limited to Abhidhamma and pali. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course not. It is up to you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: To taste a cow...I should give you a visual, tongue on the hide of a cow (hahahaha)...you can't read my mind so again I will contain my humor. Plus my nick name has been Nana for a very long time, the name of my business in which I sell my art is "Nana Go Lightly" I had no idea what nana meant in a Buddhist context until just recently. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Golightly is a surname or family name or last name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: Also my investigation and questioning can be uncomfortable and seem flippant. Sorry if I give the impression that I do not care but I cannot control how you see or react, but I can be more careful how I throw my words around. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Actually I just saw that laughter-indicating words. I did not read deeply on Go Lightly or anything. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: I know you are not discomforted because I sense your equanimity is strong and that you truly do care about me and everyone else who studies Dhamma. With Metta, Lisa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am still practising to be equanimous. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45336 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 3:15pm Subject: Breathing Treatise / Section i buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - The translation is terse. Without the Pali inserted behind each important translated word, it would be more difficult to follow the text. Personally, I have found that it is not impossible to understand it when I read slowly, pausing and pondering along the way! [Section i] 2. What are the eight kinds of knowledge of obstacles and eight kinds of knowledge of aids? 3. Zeal(chanda) for sensual-desires(kaama) is an obstacle to concentration, renunciation(nekkhamma) is an aid for concentration. Ill-will is an obstacle to concentration, non-ill-will is an aid for concentration. Stiffness-and-torpor(tina-middha) is an obstacle to concentration, perception of light(aaloka sannaa) is an aid for concentration. Agitation(uddhacca) is an obstacle to concentration, non-distraction (avikkhepa) is an aid for concentration. Uncertainty(vicikicchaa) is an obstacle to concentration, definition-of- ideas(dhammavavatthaana) is an aid for concentration. Ignorance(avijja) is an obstacle to concentration, knowledge is an aid for concentration. Boredom(arati) is an obstacle to concentration, gladness(paamojja) is an aid for concentration. Also all unprofitable ideas(akusala dhamma) are an obstacle to concentration, and all profitable ideas(kusala dhamma) are an aid to concentration. These are the eight kinds of knowledge of obstacles and eight kinds of knowledge of aids. 4. When cognizance(citta) is oriented, well oriented, in these sixteen aspects, it establishes the unities(ekatta) and is purified from hindrances. [Tep's note: purification = visuddhi; purification of cognizance = citta-visuddhi] What are these unities? Renunciation is unity, non-ill-will is unity, perception of light is unity, non- distraction is unity, definition-of-ideas is unity, knowledge is unity, gladness is unity, also all profitable ideas are unity. 5. What are these hindrances? Zeal for sensual-desires is a hindrance, ill-will is a hindrance,stiffness- and-torpor is a hindrance, agitation is a hindrance, uncertainty is a hindrance, ignorance is a hindrance, boredom is a hindrance, also all unprofitable ideas are a hindrance. Hindrances: in what sense hindrance? They are hindrances in the sense of blocking the outlets(niyyaana). What are the outlets? Renunciation is an outlet for noble ones, and noble ones are let out by renunciation: zeal for sensual-desires blocks that outlet, and because one is hindered by zeal for sensual-desires one does not understand the noble ones' outlet consisting in renunciation. Non-ill-will ... ill-will ... Perception-of-light ... stiffness-and-torpor ... Nin-distraction ... agitation ... Definition-of-ideas ... uncertainty ... Knowledge ... ignorance ... Gladness ... boredom ... Also all profitable ideas are an outlet for noble ones, and noble ones are let out by all profitable ideas: all unprofitable ideas block that outlet, and because one is hindered by all unprofitable ideas one does not understandthe noble ones' outlet consisting in all profitable ideas. Tep's Note: This is the end of Section i. I will post Section ii by Friday, 5/13/05. But in case there is an on-going discussion that may take longer than a week, then the next section posting will be delayed. Thank you for your attention. Respectfully yours, Tep ========== 45337 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhistmedi... Hi James (and Sarah) - I just want to jump in (a little stronger than 'butt in', I guess) to chat with James a little bit. James, you're right about the observation that we have several points uniquely in agreement. But I also have a few other points in good agreement with Sarah and dear Nina, for example. A bad consequence of being agreeable with several people is that some pessimists may think of Tep as having no spine. However, when you come to think about it, being flexible, or "diplomatic", is different from being spineless and it also has a few advantages. You make no enemy; you learn a lot more because you listen more and the other side also listens to you more,you may even discover that you were wrong, sometimes, etc., etc. On the other hand, having a "spine" is like having a "self", and having a "self" is unacceptable, according to Sarah. I am not afraid of you, James. I know you don't bite, do you? In my last message I was just kidding a little bit. But I promise you, James, that from now I'll not kid around (like Htoo did, sometimes) anymore. Yes, we'll continue our dialogue soon. Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Sarah (and Tep), > > Sarah: James, I think all the bodhpakkhiya dhammas you quoted refer to > dhammas or Dhammas -- whether in Suttanta or Abhidhamma. > > James: The Bodhpakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma? I > wouldn't think so since they deal with conventional items and not > *ultimate reality*, but you would be the expert in that regard. If > you say they are in the Abhidhamma then I stand corrected. > > Sarah: Maybe we use dhammas in a different way and I know you don't > wish to discuss these topics with me. > > James: Who is *we* that use dhammas in a different way? What do you > mean you know I don't want to discuss dhammas with you? I never said > that did I? I stopped one thread with you about wrong views because > it was going round and round and getting nowhere, but that doesn't > mean I never want to discuss anything with you (now, I did say that > about Jon because Jon gives me the creeps somehow and I lose my > equanimity with him; but maybe that is just because he and I have had > conflicts in a previous lifetime? I don't think he likes me very much > either. But he is very nice to everyone else and he knows the dhamma > quite well.). Anyway, I wouldn't want to argue endlessly about any > subject, but you can tell me about any references you have in regards > to dhammas. I like to learn new things about the dhamma. > > Sarah: I hope one day you'll be able to continue your discussion > together:-). > > James: I wouldn't mind discussing with Tep again; but he seems afraid > of me- which I find rather strange because I was agreeing with him for > the most part! Anyway, maybe one day we can discuss again. > > Metta, > James 45338 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:07pm Subject: Anatta as strategy? (was Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada philofillet Hi Lisa, Charles (*) and all >> Thanissaro Bhikkhu: In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause,leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions ofself, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience ofsuch total freedom, where would there be any concern about what'sexperiencing it, or whether or not it's a self? A strategy? This kind of wording is typical of western Buddhists in my apprarently not-so-humble opininion. (How dare a beginnner question a venerable?) There is an emphasis in the west on strategies and techniques, thus the desire to try out practices described in suttas lickety-split and get results this year, this month - maybe in time for the new fiscal year! (I think this tendency is most pronounced in North America, and I include myself as a Canadian.) "Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?" I suspect there are many Buddhists in the west who believe they have expereinced such total freedom, and perhaps that they can experience such total freedom just about any ol' time they want through practices described in suttas, which are in fact usually describing the practices of "instructed noble disciples" (ie ariyans - (*) Charles, I will get back to you later on this, but it does seem from what I've been reading that "noble" refers to something more than the conventional meaning.) What good does the venerable do by talking so lightly of experiencing such total freedom? He just plants seeds of false expectations. For worldlings, we need to be humble and patient in our expectations. No talk of strategies for getting beyond the need to reflect on anatta. Of course we need to reflect on anatta, in theory and with ever-so-gradually-deepening understanding. It is through understanding of the realities of each moment that arises, ever so patiently, without clinging to results, that anatta will eventually be revealed. It is not to be treated as a strategy. As for not-self vs. no-self, there's an interesting discussion in one of the recorded talks in which Jon and others say there is a difference between them, and Sarah and others think there isn't.(I find it very groovy to hear a married couple discussing and gently disagreeing about Dhamma topics!) I think there *is* a difference that is worthwhile to reflect on. I think it can be found in the "three grips" (gathas) "not self" is a characteristsic of dhammas and can be found in "this I am" (eso 'ham asmi). So we can say, for example, "seeing is not self" .On the other hand, no self suggests "There is no self" and can be found in the grip of "this is my self" (eso me atta) There is no atta, no soul, like is found in other religions. It is this very deep and multi-facteted teaching of anatta that makes the Buddha's teaching unique, and for Thanissaro Bhikkhu to reduce it to a strategy suggests that even famous venerables can have foggy days. (I must say I didn't read the whole article - that one paragraph was enough!) Metta, Phil 45339 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: Conventional world vs world of ultimate realities-Phil gazita2002 Hello Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Azita > I also liked when you - I think it was you - asked Kh Sujin *why* > annica is dukkha. I had been thinking the same thing, as it happens. > And then Kh Sujin asked "what is the greatest dukkha?" and there was > discussion about that. I am really enjoying listening to the talks. > Azita: ... and the greatest dukkha is annica. When we begin to understand more of how we cling to soooo much and that everything we cling to has gone already - experienced for a short moment and then gone. Seems ludicrous to cling, doesn't it? I understand why Kh.Sujin keeps reminding us that the aim is detachment, all the way, but we shouldn't delude ourselves that this is easy. We can't make ourselves be detached, no more than we can make ourselves be attached to something we don't like. You mentioned patience, Phil. I think it takes so much patience and most of the time we are impatient, wanting results, and that's a hindrance. > As for your voice being "sheepish" that wasn't quite the right > word. I didn't mean it in a negative way. Azita: i didn't take it in a negative way. I was enjoying the banter. so my comments about my shearing family was true and I was having some fun with it:-) On the list, I might look at someone's choice of words, and > judge them, and when listening, judge their voice. Absolutely > meaningless, in ultimate terms, but we spend so much time thinking > about ultimately meaningless things, stories etc. At least I know > I'm doing it. > > There is so much mana, all the time. Mana is a good example of a > word that is better left in Pali (there aren't that many of them, in > my opinion) because it is much wider and deeper in meaning than what > we think of by "conceit" Azita: for me, there are quite a few Pali words that are better left untranslated, citta for example. Any english t'lation just doesn't have the same meaning. > > Thanks, we had a nice time during our little "Golden Week" (as > they call it here in Japan) early summer vacation. > > Metta, > Phil Azita: 'Golden Week' - I was thinking that in Australia we have no nicely named events and then realised that's probably some degree of mana....... Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 45340 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... lbidd2 Hi Howard, There are several abhidhamma arguments that support your position: 1. what moves must be the same thing throughout the movement, which is not the case. 2. movement isn't an object of one consciousness, so it is like shape; in other words it must be a synthesis. 3. there could not be movement in the mind base where the 'appearance' of movement arises. So on and so forth. But I still don't see how the appearance of movement is constructed. In order to make a bunch of still images appear to move, you have to move them. Plus the appearance of movement prevents us from seeing clearly what is moving. Are you saying we always see clearly what is only apparently moving? Larry 45341 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/9/05 8:34:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, There are several abhidhamma arguments that support your position: 1. what moves must be the same thing throughout the movement, which is not the case. 2. movement isn't an object of one consciousness, so it is like shape; in other words it must be a synthesis. 3. there could not be movement in the mind base where the 'appearance' of movement arises. So on and so forth. But I still don't see how the appearance of movement is constructed. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Larry, I don't know how it is done either. I don't know whether Abhidhamma gives the details, and I'm sure it isn't given in the suttas. Modern psychology probably has lots to say about this, but I'm ignorant of that. Most importantly, I don't know (yet) by direct seeing what the mechanisms are. I am, however, quite certain, that experience of motion is a mental construct. As to "motion itself," I've never encountered such a thing, because all that I ever encounter is experience. ----------------------------------------- In order to make a bunch of still images appear to move, you have to move them. ---------------------------------------- Howard I don't think so Larry. What is moved in a dream, Larry? There we construct entire worlds, none of which are real, and with nothing actually moving, though the seeming of motion is a regular phenomenon. And what of waking "reality"? As we ordinarily see it, it is a construct! And the ultimate constructor is avijja. ------------------------------------------ Plus the appearance of movement prevents us from seeing clearly what is moving. Are you saying we always see clearly what is only apparently moving? ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not really making a positive assertion at all - just the negative one that for the most part things are not at all what they seem to be. To see what they really are, we need to walk the walk, i.e., we need to practice what the Buddha taught us to practice, and then, someday ... . ----------------------------------------- Larry ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45342 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Htoo: "I do not know why you made this complicated." Hi Htoo, You get all the crazy questions when Nina is away. Where this line of inquiry led me is to the empty nature of the appearance of relationship. Any kind of appearance of relationship is empty of sabhava (intrinsic nature). Even if what you are considering is paramattha dhammas the appearance of togetherness of two is an illusory appearance. We can say consciousness and object of consciousness are truly together but if they appear to be together that appearance is a synthesis, not really an object of consciousness, and is asabhava. If I drink some tea there is soft, hot, taste, and aroma. We could say that tea is that kalapa but there is no discernible unity there. If there is the sense that these sensations are one, that sense is a fabrication, a formation, illusion. Forgetting about impermanence, if I say Larry is the appearance of Larry, where is the essence of that appearance? If I say Larry is the total of all the changing appearances of Larry throughout time, where is the essence of all those appearances? Appearance is a mental fabrication and all mental fabrications are empty of intrinsic nature (sabhava). Asabhava is a finer distinction than anatta in that paramattha dhammas have intrinsic nature but are not self. "Anatta" is more general, but asabhava might be easier to see. It's all about relationship. Larry 45343 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:48pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau Hi Lisa, ------------------- L: > I found it curious that self keeps coming up over and over again and it is the two extremes, self and no-self. I was taught anatta means not self. An article from Access To Insight, No-self or Not-self? ------------------------------------ I am glad you mentioned this. Some time ago, I was very anxious to make known certain facts about Access To Insight and the teachings of Thanissaro Bhikkhu. My anxiety was allayed when I learned that TB was already well recognised amongst Buddhist academics as a source of heterodox views. Anyway, I started a thread on the subject, and was very pleased to see some of it saved in the Useful Posts file (under 'Anatta - ATI'). If you have time, please read 34543 where I raise the issue; 34774, where Andrew T adds some pithy observations; 34782, where I analyse some of TB's writings; and (if still you have the stamina) 37725, where some additional comments are made. -------------------- L: > The present Moment or Absolute is beyond concepts and I find the word moment limiting, it actually means a unit of time. But I do understand what you mean, Moment with a large 'M' --------------------- Yes, it is the Moment in which a single citta arises, performs its functions and falls away. But I don't think too much damage is done by also thinking of it as a [very, very brief] period of time. ----------------------------- KH: > > I think this is also where 99% of modern-day Buddhists > disagree with the ancient Theravadin texts. I am grateful that > you, and others like you, have joined DSG to discuss our dinosaur > version of the Dhamma. > I think this is also where 99% of modern-day Buddhists > disagree with the ancient Theravadin texts. I am grateful that > you, and others like you, have joined DSG to discuss our dinosaur > version of the Dhamma [lisah]That is a fallacy, where is the data you quote from? Generalizations are dangerous in my limited opinion ---------------------- At the time of writing, I tried to avoid the idea of "them and us." But isn't it true that almost every Buddhist you meet is following a teaching other than the one found in the original Theravada texts? Most obviously, there are the Mahayanaists. Then there are people who wish to find their own path - borrowing from any source they find helpful. And then there are people who call themselves Theravadin Buddhists, but who reject parts of the Theravadin texts and who add in teachings that aren't there. What proportion does that leave? I think 1% may have been excessive. But I wasn't meaning to be judgemental: people might be quite right in choosing another version of the teachings. I was just taking a "Let's put our cards on the table" approach. --------------------- KH: > > Agreed. We non-arahants have impure minds. Even in rare moments of > kusala kamma there are latent tendencies for akusala, and so the > wheel of suffering is kept turning. [lisah] you make it seem impossible to walk away from the cycle of suffering, it is possible to achieve the end of suffering in this very life time. --------------------- I simply meant to refer to Dependent Origination, which explains that both akusala AND kusala kamma keep the wheel of samsara turning. It is only at arahantship that there is any 'getting off the cycle.' ------------------------ L: > I know this from experience although I am a common every day person my suffering is not so heavy and it is much easier to move. Your message seems very disheartening. ------------------------ Sorry about that. Like a lot of other shy people, I sometimes adopt the persona of 'grumpy old man.' The downside of that ploy is that some people think I am a grumpy old man. :-) But what is your experience of getting off the cycle? Clearly, we are talking about different things. ------------------------------------------ L: >I used to suffer from panic attacks, anxiety, and night terrors. Now I move through the day with much more ease and no more night terrors, panic attacks or generalized anxiety. All done without taking a pill, I just sat and watched everything come and go with a focused mind and didn't react. Oh and I faced my fears in meditation and in daily life, which has become my meditation too. ------------------------------ I see. So that answers my question. I don't deny the value of therapy, and I have had similar experiences - with and without a pill. It irks me, however, when some therapists talk-up the potency of their therapy by adding the words, "This is what the Buddha taught." ---------------- L: > one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied ---------------- Ven. Thanisarro was remiss in the way he explained that sutta. He omitted to say that Ananda queried the Buddha about his refusal to give a yes or no answer. The Buddha then explained that the original questioner was so blinded by wrong view that he would have taken a 'no' answer to mean something it did not mean. That is, he would have thought that he previously did have a soul and that the Buddha had taken it away from him. I will snip the rest of your comments for now because I don't know to what extent they are influenced by Ven Thanissaro's extreme views. I'd be very glad in the meantime if you would read some of the posts I have mentioned above and give me your thoughts on them. Ken H 45344 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... TGrand458@... Hi Larry and Howard Everything is moving. Nothing is experienced other than movement. Anything that doesn't move, cannot be experienced. TG 45345 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... Evan_Stamato... Everything is moving. Nothing is experienced other than movement. Anything that doesn't move, cannot be experienced. TG Nibbana doesn't move. It can be experienced by the wise. ES 45346 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 5:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... TGrand458@... Hi ES If you read the suttas, you will read in many places the Buddha saying that Nibbana is the END of experience. TG In a message dated 5/9/2005 9:23:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Everything is moving. Nothing is experienced other than movement. Anything that doesn't move, cannot be experienced. TG Nibbana doesn't move. It can be experienced by the wise. ES 45347 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... Evan_Stamato... Hi TG It has been described as the unconditioned state, the deathless state, the extinguished, the cooled, the unravelling, and others but I don't remember it being described as the END of experience although, if pressed, I probably wouldn't disagree with that description. Could you please quote some references (I have the Wisdom Publications translations of the Digha, Majjhima and Samyutta Nikayas so you can reference from there if you like). With Metta, ES Hi ES If you read the suttas, you will read in many places the Buddha saying that Nibbana is the END of experience. TG 45348 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... lbidd2 TG: "Everything is moving. Nothing is experienced other than movement. Anything that doesn't move, cannot be experienced." Hi TG, Does consciousness move, feeling, perception, mental formations? Is red a thing that moves? How does movement work? Larry 45349 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 9:55pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2.function> 3... Evan_Stamato... Larry, Is consciousness conditioned? Is feeling conditioned? Is perception conditioned? Are mental formations conditioned? If the answer to these questions is "yes" (and it is) then it moves. Don't know about red but I would say the same thing if red is indeed a thing. With Metta, Evan Hi TG, Does consciousness move, feeling, perception, mental formations? Is red a thing that moves? How does movement work? Larry 45350 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/9/2005 9:42:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, Does consciousness move, feeling, perception, mental formations? Is red a thing that moves? How does movement work? Larry Hi Larry Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. The last question I don't understand. Are you asking "What is movement?" TG 45351 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 6:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/9/2005 9:42:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Hi TG It has been described as the unconditioned state, the deathless state, the extinguished, the cooled, the unravelling, and others but I don't remember it being described as the END of experience although, if pressed, I probably wouldn't disagree with that description. Could you please quote some references (I have the Wisdom Publications translations of the Digha, Majjhima and Samyutta Nikayas so you can reference from there if you like). With Metta, ES Hi ES These are some samples. They may or may not satisfy you in regard to "ending" although I'm unclear how extinguished does not qualify. There are other quotes even more to the point but I don't have them on hand. "...a Bhikkhu who is beyond training understands the six faculties -- the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty, the mind faculty. He understands: 'These six faculties will cease completely and totally without remainder, and no other six faculties will arise anywhere in anyway.' " (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol 2, pg. 1697) “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, By the extinction of perception and consciousness, By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) “Where consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? … “Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 600 - 601) “Escape of cognizance as a meaning is to be directly known.â€? (PD, pg. 20, Treatise on Knowledge) The body disintegrated, perception ceased, All feelings became cool, Mental activities were calmed, And consciousness came to an end. (The Buddha . . . The Udana & The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) 1) Non-arising is nibbana 2) Non-occurrence is nibbana 3) Non-sign is nibbana 4) Non-accumulation is nibbana 5) Non-rebirth-linking is nibbana 6) Non-destination is nibbana 7) Non-generation is nibbana 8) Non-rearising is nibbana 9) Non-birth is nibbana 10) Non-aging is nibbana 11) Non-sickness is nibbana 12) Non-death is nibbana 13) Non-sorrow is nibbana 14) Non-lamentation is nibbana 15) Non-despair is nibbana (PD, pg. 17, Treatise on Knowledge) “…cognizance enters into cessation which is the Nibbana principle…â€? (PD, pg. 228 - 229, Treatise on Faculties) “…there is an escape from this whole field of perception.â€? (The Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 120, The Simile of the Cloth, Vatthupama Sutta, #7) TG 45352 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon May 9, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2.function> 3... TGrand458@... Hi Evan Red moves... at the speed of light. ;-) TG In a message dated 5/9/2005 9:56:03 PM Pacific Standard Time, evan.stamatopoulos@... writes: Larry, Is consciousness conditioned? Is feeling conditioned? Is perception conditioned? Are mental formations conditioned? If the answer to these questions is "yes" (and it is) then it moves. Don't know about red but I would say the same thing if red is indeed a thing. With Metta, Evan 45353 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 9, 2005 11:10pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... Evan_Stamato... TG, You're right. I'm not going to be pedantic about semantics. Ending, extinguishing, cessation these are all the same. It's just that I hadn't seen it be described as the end of existence. It just seemed to be too close to anihilism. But I get your point now. With Metta, Evan 45354 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:27am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo and all, (Howard*) I'll respond to this first and if I have time, I will then respond to one of the older ones. (I was hoping Robert would continue the topic of anapanasati with you ;-)). -------------------------------------- > Htoo: > But the word used in that Buddha words is 'pajaanaati'. > > Jaananti means 'to know'. > Pajaananti means 'to know in detail'. > > Sukinder: > Again, detail of what? Realities, or unrealities? > ---------------------- > Htoo: > > Details of everything related to things that are in question. Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:41am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 189 - Enthusiasm/piiti (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Sometimes we are full of joy and enthusiasm while we help others, while we give something away or while we are performing other ways of kusala, but it is not always possible to have joy and enthusiasm at such moments. There are also moments of kusala citta accompanied by indifferent feeling, upekkhå, and then there is no píti. It depends on conditions whether píti arises or not. When one has great confidence in kusala and sees the benefit of it there are conditions for the arising of joy and enthusiasm while applying oneself to it. When kusala citta with pleasant feeling arises the accompanying píti invigorates the citta and the other cetasikas. Viriya, for example, is intensified by píti. We may be able to notice that, when there is joy and enthusiasm for kusala, we also have more energy to perform it. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45356 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:39am Subject: Metta and the world htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many different ways of cultivating metta or loving- kindness. Metta sutta says all the details of effects of metta, how to develop metta, how to stay with metta and how to cover the whole world with metta. Metta brahmavihara or 'loving-kindness pure-living' is a kind of mental exertion. It is a mental work. It takes the object beings. As beings are all panatti the object of metta brahmavihara is also pannatti. The typical cittas of 1st jhana derived from metta brahmavihara are just cittas. They all have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base material. They all take the object beings as their object and it is pannatti. As metta is pure thing there have not be any impure things like lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, ditthi or wrong- view, maana or conceit, issaa or jealousy, macchariya or stinginess, kukkucca or worry, ahirika or shamelessness, anottappa or fearlessness and uddhacca or upset. As metta is pure and it is a good mental exertion, it has not to be with sloth and torpor. And metta has to be free from any form of suspicion or doubt. Metta is so pure that as soon as impurity comes metta instantaneously disappears. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45357 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:41am Subject: Metta and the world 2. htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Metta brahmavihaara' or 'loving-kindness pure-living' is a method of meditation and it can give rise to 1st rupa jhana or 1st material absorption. The typical 1st jhana cittas derived from metta brahmavihara take the object of pannatti. That pannatti is satta-pannatti or idea-of-being. Unlike other meditations that can give rise to 1st jhana, metta brahmavihara and other 2 that is karuna and mudita cannot give rise to patibhaaga nimitta or counter sign as there is no mental image that will change into counter image. But the object of all brahmaviharas is just pannatti like all other meditations that can give rise to 1st jhana. Metta is non-attachment. Metta is loving-kindness. Metta is universal friendliness. Metta is universal and it can act on anyone if there are conditions. Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is talked as 'loving-kindness'. If metta is equated with 'love', then those who do not have enough understanding on metta may believe that 'love' between husband and wife is metta. This is not fully the case. Hasband and wife may develop metta to each other. But this pure metta may change into another 'love', which is lobha and strong attachment. And lobha or greediness is akusala or unwholesome thing. Metta is compared with 'the love of mother to her child'. This is especially true between newborn baby and its mother. From mother side there is no expectation from her baby when she treats anything to her baby. She will clean her baby's filth and any messy things that arisen from it. Still the mother is willing to do all things related to her baby. The baby may urinate directly to her face. Still the mother will smile and treat her baby as her most precious jewel. The baby kicks on her face. The mother smiles. The baby hit on her face. The mother smile. The mother will be very protective to her baby at all cost. Metta is really cool and it is more than that. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45358 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 10, 2005 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 5/10/05 12:12:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Larry and Howard Everything is moving. Nothing is experienced other than movement. Anything that doesn't move, cannot be experienced. TG ====================== With respect to the realm of "the conditioned" I would sooner say that nothing remains rather than everything moves. (But I think I get your point, that apparently unchanging sensory experience quickly becomes no experience.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45359 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:33am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo and all, (Howard*) *So I believe unlike Howard, our `being where we are', is about this moment of having either a right or wrong pariyatti. This is where we start from, and it's not about our being generally full of akusala and having the anusaya of `self view'. Right now, there can be right or wrong pariyatti leading to right or wrong patipatti. This direct relationship between pariyatti and patipatti is without doubt most important. We have to determine if our personal ideas about what needs to be done do indeed constitute right pariyatti. If these ideas are inconsistent with the principle of anatta and conditionality, then we can be sure that it is wrong pariyatti and that this will condition wrong patipatti. I had other things in mind, but now I forgot. :-/ Anyway, I'll look forward to your response and see what comes up. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, Thank you very much for your reply and explanations. I snipped nearly all as I agree with you. I will be looking forward to hearing 'what you forgot' will come up. But I am still thinking that you (Sukin), Sarah, Robert K, and other DSGs hold the candle light lighted and seach for things as they are. What I posted was from 'genuine sutta'. Even these 'words' are attacked. I think this is because of 'already holding light'. What I have been doing is searching for things as they are while the light arises from the searcher own eyes. Would you say 'The Buddha is wrong to preach to his disciples as - gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'? I will be looking forward to hearing from you and others who are interested especially Sarah, Robert K etc. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45360 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread (353) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Depending on bhumi or realm, where kamma can give rise to their results, kamma are classified into 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma There are 3 akusala kamma based on kamma-dvara or where kamma are committed. They are akusala kaaya kamma, akusala vaci kamma, and akusala mano kamma. Akusala kaaya kamma have been discussed in the previous post. There are 4 akusala vaci kamma. They are 1. musaavaada or 'telling lies' 2. pisuna vaacaa or 'telling divisive speech' 3. pharusa vaacaa or 'telling harsh speech' 4. samphappalaapa or 'telling unfruitful speech' Musaavaada akusala kamma is committed by both 'lobha' and 'dosa'. In both cases 'moha' is already included. People tell lies so as to gain something they want through lobha. When this happens, there always is moha. On some occasions, people tell lie so that others meet difficulties or suffering. In this example, the chief dhamma is dosa and dosa commit musaavaada with the intention of destruction of others' properties, reputation, fame etc. In both cases, moha is included. Actually moha is the leader in both cases of musaavaada. But as asaadharana method, moha is not counted here. That is musaavaada is committed by lobha or dosa as main source of dhamma. As moha always includes in any akusala dhamma, it is here not high-lighted. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45361 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:15am Subject: Obsessed Viewpoint on Self buddhistmedi... Hi, all - The omnipresent "self" theme has been repeated in almost every dialogue I have encountered at DSG, for example: Sarah (#44453 ): The `I' thinks it seems right when we set aside particular times or activities, but really we're enslaved to lobha (attachment) which wishes for particular results. ... It is this same attachment to self and results which may lead to `feeling low' or `alone' or discouraged. At such times we don't wish to see the problem as being a `clinging to self' and even less to see the `silabbataparamasa' (adherence to rites and rituals) when there is lobha trying to do something different. T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. A danger of this obsession is that it may lead to "a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion, a writhing, a fetter of views" that block the Path. T: When a self viewpoint becomes an obsession, one is too scared to practice the Dhamma (e.g. according to MN 20), and may take ' no self' as a protection from the fear of self. As example of the ' no self viewpoint 'is given by Kel in message #41384. The idea that "there is no I involve" is not wrong, only the obsession of the idea is. Kel (#41384): We have to be clear that panna is the forerunner. So a right effort can only be right if there is panna as its percusor. Some Brahims at that time already are skilled practioners of sila and samadhi and even more advance than Buddha before he is enlighted. Deliberate actions (see below answer on more on cetana) are actions based on the concept of I, when there is volition based on the concept of I, there is taint of ignorance, it will only lead to rounds of suffering. Remember when this arise, that arise, shows there is no I involve in this process. Since the process is as such, there is no way one can understand the process when one still stick to an I concept. [endquote] T: An obsession with the 'no-self viewpoint' is also seen in KenH's message (#45300) to Hasituppada : KenH: Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. .... Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. T: It is one small thing when anyone talks intellectually about a dhamma principle from a book, about a theory or a concept, just to feel good about it. But it is quite a different thing when that person preaches the Dhamma principles as if she/he already is the master, saying it authoritatively: 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Such a proclamation is a viewpoint (ditthi) , according to AN X.96, Kokanuda Sutta. So it seems to me that having a 'viewpoint' reflects a lack of the samma-ditthi, which is the state of mind that is free from ditthis. One kind of ditthi is the 'viewpoint of no self'. Lisa in her message # 45324 explains why it is wrong to dwell on the viewpoints of self or no self. Those viewpoints can block your path, she says. [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [lisah]In meditation 'I have not found a 'self' and 'I have not found no-self.' Both are conceptual constructs and therefore empty of what is in and of itself. T: Lisa has said it very well. Take the "breath" as an example -- meditators don't care whether it is or it is not a concept, they leave this "viewpoint" to the Abhidhamma intellectuals. Respectfully, Tep ======== 45362 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:25am Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James (and Sarah) - > > I just want to jump in (a little stronger than 'butt in', I guess) to chat with > James a little bit. > > James, you're right about the observation that we have several points > uniquely in agreement. But I also have a few other points in good > agreement with Sarah and dear Nina, for example. A bad > consequence of being agreeable with several people is that some > pessimists may think of Tep as having no spine. However, when you > come to think about it, being flexible, or "diplomatic", is different from > being spineless and it also has a few advantages. Hi Tep, Of course there is nothing wrong with being diplomatic or compromising. You can be whatever type of person you want to be. I don't think of you as spineless or anything like that. However, I think you are going to find that your `compromising efforts' are in vain. The main issue with the K. Sujianians, as we were discussing, is that they don't believe in the practice of meditation. In short, they believe that the people of this era don't have the proper accumulations to practice the jhanas and/or vipassana- and that such practice could only be motivated by a belief in "self" since the proper accumulations are absent. Consequently, they believe that the people of today only have the accumulations to practice satipatthana, as in daily mindfulness. This belief is based on a hodge podge of different sources, but it predominately goes back to the writings of Buddhaghosa. You will find that they will not compromise this belief one iota. You can try to compromise all you want, but they won't budge. I know because I have actively debated them regarding this issue for over a year. Compromise and diplomacy has to be a two-way street or it is pointless. Now, it IS somewhat spineless to compromise with someone or groups who won't also allow concessions- don't you think? Then it is all one-sided. Personally, I won't compromise on this issue. I believe that the people of this era have the proper accumulations to practice meditation and that the Buddha didn't teach otherwise. Proper meditation needs the proper instruction from a qualified teacher, but it isn't impossible for the people of today. Really, I don't see this as an issue where there can be compromise. If you can think of some possible compromise about this issue then please share it with the group- you could save a lot of useless wrangling over this issue. Metta, James 45363 From: "hasituppada" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 6:43am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma/Anatta hasituppada Dear Christine, You say: It is my understanding that Anatta is what the Abhidhamma is about. My Reply to Christine: Abhidhamma is the higher dhamma, above the convensional teachings found in the Sutta. The Buddha's teaching is simple. He made it easily accessible to ordinary people. He even used the maghadi (Pali) the common language of the people to make his vohara desana- the conventional discourses. He of course made no distinction between the Kings and citizens, Queens and courtesans, Masters and slaves, educated and uneducated, Brahmana and the untouchable. The suttas he made were for every one. Abhidhamma on the other hand was not meant for the ordinary people. That was because it confuses understanding, because we the ordinary people (prutajjhans) have our minds clouded with ignorance. Until ignorance is eliminated through gradual development through Sila Samadhi Panna, we will not be able to grasp the real meaning of paramatta sacca- the reality beyond conventional terms. "Real meaning" is the meaning gleaned through "experience"-meditative experience. Lord Buddha explained Anatta very cleary in his Suttas. The very relevant ones are the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta, Alagadduppama Sutta, his discourse to Vaccagotta etc. Anatma is a very difficult subject to understand, specially to the Westerners coming from a Christian Culture. It is not necessary to go to Abhidhamma to understand Anatta. The Buddha's teaching of conditionality- paticcasamuppada, clears all doubt about the existence of a self. And again the sutta explanation of the panchaskhandha-the five aggregates, and the Panch Upadanaskhandha- the five aggregates of clinging, explains where the nucleus of the idea of a self begins. And then you quote Venerable Nyanaponika Thera. He and his teacher the Venerable Nanatiloka were the Western monks that made Abhidhamma a work of research for intellectually bent persons. Abhidhamma was not taught or no dicourses based on the Abhidahmma were made to the Buddhist lay followers in the Buddhist Country I come from. Burma was in a way a more advanced country in Theravada. There the lay people had to go through a period of training as a Bikkhu. The layfollowers studied Abhidhamma, and there great confidence in Buddha Dhamma and Sangha made them understand the value of both Abhidhamma and Sutta without mixing up priorities. They therefore understood the importance of the Suttas for a real follower of Buddha. Venerable Nyanaponika, however stressed that you should follow a middle path between Abhidhamma and Suttas. Venerable Nyanaponika who I had the good fortune to meet was a Meditating monk. He had set hours for meditation and who ever were present when the time came he retreated to his place of meditation. In a conversation with a Great Sinhala monk,Venerable Pelane Vajiranana Maha Thero, who understood the enthusiasm of the Western monks for intellectual inspiration drawn from Abhidhamma, had told Venerable Nyanaponika, some thing very significant: "As to the relation of the teachings of the Abhidhamma to those of the Sutta Pitaka, two very apt comparisons given in a conversation by the late Venerable Pelene VajirananaMaha Nayake Thera of Vajirarama, Colombo may be added in conclusion: The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying-glass, but the understanding gained from the Sutta is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Sutta is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance and the suffering caused by it." ( Abhidhamma Studies( Research in Buddhist Psychology) by Nyanaponika Thera-Buddhist Publication Society Kandy.) With metta, Hasituppada. _________________________________________________________________ "It is on this very doctrine of Non-self (anatta) that all Abhidhamma thought converges and this is where it culminates. The elaborate and thorough treatment of Anatta is also the most important practical contribution of the Abhidhamma to the progress of the Buddha's disciple towards liberation." - quoted from "The Abhidhamma Philosophy - Its Estimation in the Past and its value for the Present" by Nyanaponika Thera (Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka). metta and peace, Christine 45364 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 7:05am Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhistmedi... Hi James and others - Thank you for talking firstly about our attitude on exchanging ideas at DSG when there are opposing beliefs. Let me respond to you point by point. James: >However, I think you are going to find that your `compromising efforts' >are in vain. In short, > they believe that the people of this era don't have the proper > accumulations to practice the jhanas and/or vipassana- and that such > practice could only be motivated by a belief in "self" since the > proper accumulations are absent. T: I agree. No compromise is possible in this case. James: >Consequently, they believe that the people of today only have the >accumulations to practice satipatthana, as in daily mindfulness. I also practice Satipatthana according to MN 10/DN22 but with the perspective of the person standing at the foot of a very tall mountain, finding ways to get to the top. James: > I know because I have actively debated them regarding this >issue for over a year. Compromise and diplomacy has to be >a two-way street or it is pointless. Now, it IS somewhat spineless >to compromise with someone or groups who won't also allow >concessions- don't you think? Then it is all one-sided. T: It is absolutely spineless and despicable to compromise with someone/group that allows no concessions. When I compromise in a business negotiation there must be a give and a take. But when I discuss the Dhamma with someone/group, I don't expect a compromise that leads to a loss of my integrity or denying what I know is right according to the Buddha. James: >If you can think of some possible compromise about this issue then >please share it with the group- you could save a lot of useless >wrangling over this issue. > T: Only when they finally realize that they were not correct, most people (except for the very stubborn ones) will be willing to change a little. So if you are really confident that you have the right answer, then you will go on discussing and exchanging ideas with them. Otherwise, you quit being member of DSG. There are two choices only: stay and do your best, or get the hell out of here. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi James (and Sarah) - > > > > I just want to jump in (a little stronger than 'butt in', I guess) > to chat with > > James a little bit. > > > > James, you're right about the observation that we have several points > > uniquely in agreement. But I also have a few other points in good > > agreement with Sarah and dear Nina, for example. A bad > > consequence of being agreeable with several people is that some > > pessimists may think of Tep as having no spine. However, when you > > come to think about it, being flexible, or "diplomatic", is > different from > > being spineless and it also has a few advantages. > > Hi Tep, > > Of course there is nothing wrong with being diplomatic or > compromising. You can be whatever type of person you want to be. I > don't think of you as spineless or anything like that. However, I > think you are going to find that your `compromising efforts' are in > vain. The main issue with the K. Sujianians, as we were discussing, > is that they don't believe in the practice of meditation. In short, > they believe that the people of this era don't have the proper > accumulations to practice the jhanas and/or vipassana- and that such > practice could only be motivated by a belief in "self" since the > proper accumulations are absent. Consequently, they believe that the > people of today only have the accumulations to practice satipatthana, > as in daily mindfulness. This belief is based on a hodge podge of > different sources, but it predominately goes back to the writings of > Buddhaghosa. > > You will find that they will not compromise this belief one iota. You > can try to compromise all you want, but they won't budge. I know > because I have actively debated them regarding this issue for over a > year. Compromise and diplomacy has to be a two-way street or it is > pointless. Now, it IS somewhat spineless to compromise with someone > or groups who won't also allow concessions- don't you think? Then it > is all one-sided. > > Personally, I won't compromise on this issue. I believe that the > people of this era have the proper accumulations to practice > meditation and that the Buddha didn't teach otherwise. Proper > meditation needs the proper instruction from a qualified teacher, but > it isn't impossible for the people of today. Really, I don't see this > as an issue where there can be compromise. If you can think of some > possible compromise about this issue then please share it with the > group- you could save a lot of useless wrangling over this issue. > > Metta, > James 45365 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: Obsessed Viewpoint on Self philofillet HI Tep, and all T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self demon" may be directing the activities. Ph: I think this could bug beginners like myself - and it did - but I was helped when I learned that we cannot develop panna if we don't appreciate sila and dana. On the other hand, when activities that are purported to develop sati or panna are subtly directed by idea of self, there is no benefit for the person doing them, or anyone else. Well, there may be therapeautic benefits, a sense of emotional well-being and stabilty, but that is not satipatthana. Metta, Phil 45366 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 8:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (354) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Depending on bhumi or realm, where kamma can give rise to their results, kamma are classified into 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma There are 3 akusala kamma based on kamma-dvara or where kamma are committed. They are akusala kaaya kamma, akusala vaci kamma, and akusala mano kamma. Akusala kaaya kamma have been discussed in the previous post. There are 4 akusala vaci kamma. They are 1. musaavaada or 'telling lies' 2. pisuna vaacaa or 'telling divisive speech' 3. pharusa vaacaa or 'telling harsh speech' 4. samphappalaapa or 'telling unfruitful speech' Musaavaada or lying has been discussed in the previous post. Pisuna vaacaa or telling harsh speech is also akusala kamma or vaci origin. That is this kamma is committed at the kamma-door of mouth or verbal-door. The words inside may or may not be true. When the words are not true, that kamma is both musaavaada and pisuna vaacaa. But this akusala kamma can be committed even with true speech. Even when the speech spoken is true and not musaavaada, they may still be pisuna vaacaa or akusala kamma of 'telling divisive speech'. This kamma is akusala because the main dhamma that underlie is dosa citta and it is manifested through vaci-vinatti rupa, which is a cittaja rupa arisen from akusala cittas. When a word causes 2 beloved people to be separated, that word should not be told however the words are right. When this is not considered and there is an intention of separation of 2 people with telling these words, pisuna vaacaa is said to be committed. In this akusala vaci kamma, the main dhamma that underlie is dosa. But the leader is always moha. As moha always includes in any of akusala citta, moha is not high-lighted here and pisuna vaacaa is said to be commited by dosa or aversion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45367 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:23am Subject: Re: Obsessed Viewpoint on Self buddhistmedi... Hi Phil - I was talking about one extreme viewpoint and a consequence of it. The other extreme is that of 'no self'. You were talking about neither. Below the Sotapanna level there still is an "idea of self" that should be eliminated by abandoning the first 3 fetters. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > HI Tep, and all > > T: Because of having obsessed 'self viewpoint', then even the > Buddha's Teachings on developing sila & samadhi and eradicating > akusala vitakka, are confused because of the fear that the " self > demon" may be directing the activities. > > Ph: I think this could bug beginners like myself - and it did - > but I was helped when I learned that we cannot develop panna if we > don't appreciate sila and dana. On the other hand, when activities > that are purported to develop sati or panna are subtly directed by > idea of self, there is no benefit for the person doing them, or > anyone else. Well, there may be therapeautic benefits, a sense of > emotional well-being and stabilty, but that is not satipatthana. > > Metta, > Phil 45368 From: "hasituppada" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, Sarah says: I'm not a historian at all, but I do have a lot of confidence in what I read in the ancient commentaries. _______________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: If you are not a historian, but one who has confidence in what you read, I think it is best I leave you to your theories about the history of Abidhamma, and get onto the next point you have raised. ______________________________________________________________ Sarah writes: Honestly speaking, Hasituppada, when I see modern articles suggesting that the Abhidhamma isn't the `word of the Buddha' etc, I find they are based on other articles, but I think very few people actually read these ancient commentaries. Charles Perera says: Different people have different points of views, it had been so since the beginning of time. World is such and we have to put up with that sort of annoyance. _____________________________________________________________________ __ Hasituppada had said: Bhavana, is what the Buddha taught, and instructed through the Mahasatipattana Sutta for the human beings to practice to allow the purification of mind to attain Nibbana. It could be done now as it was done before, and could be done in the future. ... _________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: Yes, not just in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta but throughout the Tipitaka, I'd suggest. Can there be any satipatthana development if there is no understanding of pancakkhandha and no identifiable beings etc? _____________________________________________________________________ __ Charles Perera Says: For the purpose of Bhavana the whole of Tipitaka is not necessary. Maha Satipatthana Sutta gives all the necessary instructions. If Bhavana is done under the guidance of a good teacher he will guide you along. Eventually you will understand the Panchakkhandha. It is a path traced by the Buddha to start from what you know now, to discover what is not yet known. ____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: I'm familiar with this regimen, but did the Buddha ever say that listening (no reading then:-)) or discussion should be put aside at the outset of bhavana? What about all those who became enlightened whilst listening? In fact aren't suta maya panna (listening) and cinta maya panna(careful reflecting) the very conditions for bhavana maya panna? .... __________________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: Buddha said ""This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding -- in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four? "There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." (Maha Satipatthana Sutta) Second part of the question, may be the extreme saddha and a moment of deep concentration equal to an jhana absorption that broke loose the identity of self. I do not think one can attain bhavanamaya panna so easily. A sotapanna has still not attained panna…. ___________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: (a)Did the Buddha ever speak about the 4 or 5 jhanas (or one or two) being essential requisites for all in order to develop vipassana? (b)For example, Visakkha became a sotapanna at the age of 7 and continued to lead a very worldly kind of life. Is there any suggestion that she had attained any jhanas before becoming enlightened? ____________________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: (a) Yes, in several Suttas. A very instructive Sutta is Samannaphala Sutta. And then the Maha Satipattahna Sutta: "…………………And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration. "This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. " (extracted from Maha Satipatthana Sutta) (b)After becoming a Sotapanna one can continue to sit Samatha again and again and have jhana absorptions. _____________________________________________________________________ _ Sarah says: Let's just be clear for a moment that there is samatha (tranquility or calm) at each moment of kusala. So at moments of vipassana, there must be samatha. What you are saying is that samatha bhavana must be developed to the degree of jhana first. ____________________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: I cannot understand the question as it is put. (what I cannot under stand is why: at each moment of Kusala. So at moments of Vipassana) There isn't just a moment…. Samatha is developed taking a parikamma nimitta. That is any "object" the breath or a kasina ( do not worry about pannatti or no-pannatti) just an object. Then when the mind becomes very calm, alert and silent, you have attained deep Samadhi and will attain the first Jahna. You continue and you will attain the second, third and forth jhana. Then you come out of the Jhana and with a very calm and clear mind start vipassana meditation. In vipassana meditation too you may attain Vipassana Jhana absorptions. Yes, samatha bhavana must be developed to the degree of jhana firstbefore going on to vipassana. _____________________________________________________________________ _ Sarah says: I think the texts make it clear that when the lokuttara cittas arise, the concentration and accompanying factors such as samma- sankappa are of the degree of jhana by nature of the object (nibbana) automatically. _____________________________________________________________________ Charles says: Sorry, I do not understand what you mean. ____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: Even if highly developed samatha bhavana were essential first, it can still only be developed with understanding and not by will or concentration. I know there are some differences here and as I said to Howard, I'm glad you're sharing your opinions and well-considered reflections too. _____________________________________________________________________ __ Charles Perera says: Yes one has to prepare oneself for Samatha meditation. There has to be effort, Samma Vayama. Understanding (samma sankappa), about the four noble truths, and the noble eight fold path are essential for a Buddhist. That is the first of the eight fold path. _____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: (If you have time, please look at posts under 'Susima Sutta' in U.P) ____________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: I will. _________________________________________________________________ Sarah Says: Hmmm – we try to encourage everyone to use real names here, but don't insist as someone may have a very good reason for not doing so..... _____________________________________________________________________ _ Charles Perera says: I will abide if it pleases you. I wasn't really hiding behind a name. It is just taht I liked being addressed Hasituppada. May be a bit of Mana. With metta, Hasituppada (oh Charles Perera) 45369 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:19am Subject: Re: Metta and the world 2. matheesha333 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" Hi Htoo,everyone H:> Metta is compared with 'the love of mother to her [M: only] child'. This is > especially true between newborn baby and its mother. This can be a bit tricky. How do we solve the problem that like it or not, mothers are strongly attached to their babies and it is this attachment which is so blinding? Does the suttas say metta is similar to this, or it is the same? metta Matheesha 45370 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:07pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah (Howard, etc.)- [A reply to message #45316] I think the following is what we have agreed (or in near agreement). Tell me if you disagree now. -- The Anattalakkhana Sutta does not directly define self (atta) or not- self (anatta), but rather gives a logical deduction on the self view of the pancakkhandha. It essentially states that the 5 aggregates are anatta because they are subject to disease (aabaadha) and so they cannot be controlled accoding to one's wishes. Therefore, (the logical deduction that follows is that) it would be wrong to have the following viewpoint on each of the five aggregates : 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'. The reverse of this deduction must be true, i.e. one may think of each of the 5 aggregates as 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self', if and only if it is an atta (self), which is free from disease and can be controlled according to one's wishes. T: >Such a self view reflects a wrong attitude - a miccha ditthi, >because 'self ' is real only to people who have upadana >on the aggregates. .... S: I assume you mean the wrong view of self is real. Of course, upadana or craving can be with or without wrong view. A sotapanna has craving, but no wrong view. T: I don't follow your reasoning. Why do you assume that "the wrong view of self is real"? However, I agree that upadana on any kind of viewpoint can happen. I want to change my previous conclusion : "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion". This conclusion of "no self" is an extreme viewpoint and it is wrong. Why? Take a look at Lisa's message # 45324 : [Liisah] one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the contrary. T: By agreeing, it means that you also have the same extreme view on self. Do you want to change that wrong view now? The other conclusion I made was right, though : > With or without the wrong attitude about self, or the miccha ditthi >self view, the pancakkhandha exists (they are not illusion at all, >despite the Truth that they are impermanent and so on) and >decisions are being made all the time (the decisions are not >illusion either. For example, President Bush was elected and his >decision to invade Iraq was real. ... S: What are the khandhas or dhammas in your example, would you say? Are President Bush and Iraq realities? What is the decision? What are the condtions for decisions? Following on from this, what makes the choice? Can we agree that thinking is not self, intention is not self, wrong view is not self, effort is not self? T: According to the conventional truth, both Bush and Iraq are real. According to the Anattalakkhana Sutta, President Bush and Iraq and also Bush's decision are Anatta -- i.e. all three should not be taken as self because they are subject to disease and do not obey our wishes that they should be this and that, or they should not be this or that. In other words, we should not have a wrong view that they can be taken for granted. All these logical deductions do not mean that President Bush and Iraq and also Bush's decision were not real -- because they existed in that moment. Bush made that decision and they existed in the past. Of course all dhammas (thinking, decision, intention, pancakkhandha of Bush) then and now are anatta. This is not an extreme viewpoint. I am learning to replace my view on atta and anatta. Certainly, there is more to learn while panna is being developed. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > --- Tep Sastri wrote: > <...> > > I selected b) Self needs to make the choice until it is eradicated, ====== 45371 From: "hasituppada" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada hasituppada Dear KenH KenH says: I think this is also where 99% of modern-day Buddhists disagree with the ancient Theravadin texts. I am grateful that you, and others like you, have joined DSG to discuss our dinosaur version of the Dhamma. _____________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: I think it is an exaggerated remark, full of conceit-manna. Here you have failed to watch the reality of the present moment !!! _____________________________________________________________ KenH says: However, this is nothing to get upset about because there is only the present moment. Outside of the present five khandhas, there is nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - anywhere - for it to have any effect on. __________________________________________________________________ Charles Perera says: "the present moment" exists but one cannot make a whole philosophy out of that. There is of course "you" and "me" "he" "them" and whole of the world. That is not a lie. That is the truth- sammuti sacca or the conventional truth. Well rest of what KenH says is more or less the same thing, ad infinitum. Point is that Ken H thinks he is living in a world of paramattadhamma. When he looks into the mirror, there is no image, because he is empty. When he goes to have his breakfast, there is no kitchen, no table, no chair, no plate, no food and no KenH. This is a dialog without "any body" because according to KenH nothing exists. No "me" No "us" With metta (nevertheless) Hasituppada; __________________________________________________________ > -------------------------------- > H: > when I see, I see. > -------------------------------- > > Here, the ultimate story is slightly different. To paraphrase the > Abhidhamma; 'Mere seeing exists but no seer is found.' Seeing is > eye-consciousness, which is a paramattha dhamma. While you have been > reading this message, countless eye-consciousnesses have arisen, > performed their functions, and fallen away. > > ------------------------------------------------- > H: > When I eat, I eat etc. We the yogis call that, bare attention. > ------------------------------------------------- > > Yogi or not, you cannot practise the Dhamma when you believe eating > is a reality. > > ------------------------ > H: > Bare attention, by itself, is not enough to purify the mind of > its accumulation of bad habits, let alone unwholesome kamma. > Therefore some thing more effective to get hold of the mind and see > it as it is, is essential. It is not the present reality that could > do that purification of the mind to reach the set target. > ------------------------- > > I agree, and I should clarify one extremely important point: It is > not the present reality that purifies the mind. The thing that > purifies the mind is *knowing the present reality.* > > The present moment might be very impure - it might include dosa, for > example, or moha, or even micha-ditthi - but the immediately > following moments of consciousness can take any present > (now, fallen away) reality as their object. It resonates in a way > that it can be experienced even though it has just fallen away. > > ----------------------------- > H: > Specially, for us human beings with multifarious activities, it > is certainly an enormous assignment. > ------------------------------ > > There, the Theravadin understanding has the advantage. Since there > is only the present moment, there are no human beings and no > multifarious activities: there are only dhammas. Therefore, the only > obstacle that could stand in the way of vipassana development is > moha (ignorance of the Dhamma). > > ------------------------------------------------- > H: > Therefore, Buddha took as his disciples those who had given up > their household life to follow his teachings. > ------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know which meaning you are applying to the word "disciples" > in this instance - do you mean chief disciples? There were, and > possibly still are, lay followers who were ariyans. Lay followers > and bhikkhus are equally capable when it comes to understanding and > practising Dhamma. However, some people have accumulated the > necessary tendencies for living the homeless life, preserving the > arahant lifestyle and, in some cases, developing jhana. > > --------------------------------- > H: > The Maha Satipattana Sutta consists of the instructions > to his Bikkhus to do Bhavana. Bhavana is defined as mental > cultivation and called in English Meditation. > ------------------------------- > > Ultimately, a bhikkhu is anyone who follows the Buddha's > teaching. Or, more correctly, it is the five khandhas when they > the sankhara-khandha includes right understanding and right > mindfulness (and so on). > > When we know ultimate reality as being the present five khandhas (in > whatever form they might arise), the term "instruction to do > bhavana" takes on a whole new meaning. "Understand the five > khandhas" is one new meaning that springs to mind; can you think of > any others? > > -------------------------------------------------- > H: > During the time of the Buddha, instructions were not given to > lay people to Meditate. > They were told of the merit of Dana Sila and Bhavana which would > have been enough for a diligent human earthling to attain at least > Sotapatti. > --------------------------------------------------- > > I'll have to skip over that because I don't understand what you are > saying. Unless, that is, you are agreeing that right understanding > is enough for the attainment of enlightenment. (?) > > ------------------------------------------------- > H: > Now we have the time and the means, which were not available > those days, to take off to meditate. We have no other alternative > but to follow those same instructions the Buddha gave to his > disciples, to enter the Stream. Then we will have to follow the > Sutta Pitaka. As the instructions for the Bikkhus are in them. > -------------------------------------------------- > > Do you mean the Dhamma has changed since the Buddha taught it? That > is the sort of thinking that can arise only from a non-present- > moment-centred interpretation. The namas and rupas that are arising > now have exactly the same characteristics that they had in the > Buddha's day. > > --------------------------- > H: > Abhidhamma is a sacred book, but there are no instructions in > it for us or his disciples to follow to purify the mind of its > impurities and prepare it to the journey towards Nibbana. > ---------------------------- > > Apart from the dhammas described in the Abhidhamma, there is > nothing but illusion. In the ulltimate sense, there are no books, no > instructions, no disciples and no journeys. You must realise that. > Otherwise, you will always be practising a conventional technique of > a kind that can be taught by any moderately intelligent person. The > Dhamma is unique. It can be taught only by a Buddha, and it can be > practised only by the wise. > > Even if there is no wisdom now, lots of other dhammas are arising, > ready to be understood. > > Ken H 45372 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 3:52pm Subject: Re: Obsessed Viewpoint on Self philofillet Hi Tep Tep> I was talking about one extreme viewpoint and a consequence of it. > The other extreme is that of 'no self'. You were talking about neither. You're right. I said this: "when activities > > that are purported to develop sati or panna are subtly directed by > > idea of self, there is no benefit for the person doing them, or > > anyone else. Well, there may be therapeautic benefits, a sense of > > emotional well-being and stabilty, but that is not satipatthana." What I was talking about is not "subtly" directed by self. For example, deciding to sit down and force the arising of metta is not subtle. Deciding to sit down and have sati in contradiction to the conditions at work is not subtle. Being concerned about the implications of this kind of wrong practice is not obsessive. As you say below, the subtle clinging to self is something only sotapannas can eradicate. Being concerned about those subtler levels of self clinging would be obsessive because it is obviously something we worldlings will live with for many, many lifetimes. Thanks for the correction! Tep > Below the Sotapanna level there still is an "idea of self" that should be > eliminated by abandoning the first 3 fetters. Metta, Phil 45373 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:17pm Subject: motion lbidd2 Hi TG, Evan, and Howard, TG and Evan, I think you guys are going to have to tell me what you mean by movement. Movement through physical space from one location to another by one entity? If that is close how does consciousness and mental phenomena move? If by movement you mean movement through time, that is just change and I would accept that. Abhidhamma says impermanence is the arising, ageing, and ceasing of the same phenomenon. This only happens in a mind moment (or, presumably, 17 mind moments for rupa). If one thing arises and another ceases, that isn't impermanence. Also red isn't light but light might be red. Light is a group of rupas (kalapa) which may include red. You could say a kalapa moves through space but, technically speaking, a kalapa isn't included in "everything" because it doesn't have an intrinsic nature (sabhava). What is the object of consciousness when you are aware of movement? Howard, I don't think the appearance of movement is due to ignorance but we are most of the time ignorant of the relational nature of the appearance of movement and ignorant of the impermanence of what appears to move. Larry 45374 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Metta and the world 2. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > Hi Htoo,everyone > > H:> Metta is compared with 'the love of mother to her [M: only] > child'. This is > > especially true between newborn baby and its mother. > > This can be a bit tricky. How do we solve the problem that like it or > not, mothers are strongly attached to their babies and it is this > attachment which is so blinding? > > Does the suttas say metta is similar to this, or it is the same? > > metta > > Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, Metta sutta says 'Mata yatha niyam putta maayusaa, eka putta manurakkhe. Evam pi sabba bhuutesu maanasam bhavaye apparimaanam'. Yatha-like, mata-mother, putta-son, aayusaa-breed/nurture (aayusaa is changed to maayusaa), eka-one, rakkhe-protect. Evam-such, pi-like this, sabba-all, bhuutesu-at apparent being, manasam-mind/consciousness, bhavaye-being cultivated. This is just comparison. I have already explain in the post that metta runs away as soon as attachment arise. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45375 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (355) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Depending on bhumi or realm, where kamma can give rise to their results, kamma are classified into 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma There are 3 akusala kamma based on kamma-dvara or where kamma are committed. They are akusala kaaya kamma, akusala vaci kamma, and akusala mano kamma. Akusala kaaya kamma have been discussed in the previous post. There are 4 akusala vaci kamma. They are 1. musaavaada or 'telling lies' 2. pisuna vaacaa or 'telling divisive speech' 3. pharusa vaacaa or 'telling harsh speech' 4. samphappalaapa or 'telling unfruitful speech' Pharusa vaacaa is also akusala vaci kamma. The words in that sort of speech may be true or not true. If not true, then the kamma will be both musaavaada and pharusa vaacaa. But even when words are true, the speech may not be a good one as they carry painful messages or words. Harsh speech may well be untrue and divisive. This this happen, then there will be 3 akusala vaci kamma being committed at the same time. They are musaavaada, pisuna vaacaa and pharusa vaacaa. Pharusa vaacaa are mainly committed by dosa. When there is dosa, there also is moha. But as moha always includes in any of akusala dhamma, moha is not high-lighted as main cause of akusala kamma patha dhamma. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45376 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Re: Obsessed Viewpoint on Self buddhistmedi... Hi, Phil - I appreciate your careful study and giving me the feedback. I am glad that we have reached the same conclusion. Respectfully, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep > > > Tep> I was talking about one extreme viewpoint and a consequence of > it. > > The other extreme is that of 'no self'. You were talking about > neither. > > You're right. I said this: "when activities > > > that are purported to develop sati or panna are subtly directed > by > > > idea of self, there is no benefit for the person doing them, or > > > anyone else. Well, there may be therapeautic benefits, a sense > of > > > emotional well-being and stabilty, but that is not satipatthana." > > What I was talking about is not "subtly" directed by self. For > example, deciding to sit down and force the arising of metta is not > subtle. Deciding to sit down and have sati in contradiction to the > conditions at work is not subtle. Being concerned about the > implications of this kind of wrong practice is not obsessive. As you > say below, the subtle clinging to self is something only sotapannas > can eradicate. Being concerned about those subtler levels of self > clinging would be obsessive because it is obviously something we > worldlings will live with for many, many lifetimes. Thanks for the > correction! > > Tep > Below the Sotapanna level there still is an "idea of self" > that should be > > eliminated by abandoning the first 3 fetters. > > Metta, > Phil 45377 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 5:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhistmedi... Hi, Sarah - Thank you for the suggestion for improvement of this Series. I agree with it and will paste all the Pali word I can find along with its English translation, starting in Section ii. There are 4 tetrads in the Anapanasati, each tetrad has 4 grounds, and each ground corresponds to each item in the tetrad. The yogi "steps up" from one ground to the next higher ground, step by step. For example, the first two grounds are : (I) The yogi (one devoted to mental training) mindfully exhales an out- breath, and mindfully inhales an in-breath. (II) When a long breath is exhaled, he knows that he exhales a long out- breath. When a long breath is inhaled, he knows that he inhales a long in-breath. When a short breath is exhaled, he knows that he exhales a short out-breath. When a short breath is inhaled, he knows that he inhales a short in-breath. I hope the explanation makes sense. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep (& James) > .(snipped ) > .... > S: All these notes you gave (and those snipped) are very helpful. Maybe you can just paste them with each extract if applicable so we don't need to hunt around each time:-). > > I was looking for 'Grounds' as in 16 grounds...do you have any idea? Is it vatthu - bases or sth? (can't see it in the English text). > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 45378 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 8:18pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear KenH > > KenH says: > > I think this is also where 99% of modern-day Buddhists > disagree with the ancient Theravadin texts. I am grateful that > you, and others like you, have joined DSG to discuss our dinosaur > version of the Dhamma. > _____________________________________________________________ > Charles Perera says: > I think it is an exaggerated remark, full of conceit-manna. Here > you have failed to watch the reality of the present moment !!! > _____________________________________________________________ > Hi Charles, Thank you for at least continuing to speak to me. Did I say something wrong? I thought we had agreed that you and I were studying different texts. I don't think that is an insult to you at all. Many famous, highly respected, Theravada monks are of the same opinion as you. That is, they believe that the Abhidhamma- pitaka and the ancient commentaries are late additions to the Theravada texts. And they believe that those 'late additions' give an interpretation to the Dhamma that was not originally intended. As I said to Lisa yesterday, I am not being judgemental: I am prepared to admit that they (and you) may well be right. Rightly or wrongly, I have chosen to study the traditionally accepted Theravada texts. Because I don't have time, I have chosen not to study any opinions (or teachings) that contradict those texts. That puts me in a tiny minority of modern-day Buddhists. I estimated it at 1%. I don't see what was so wrong in saying that. I also said that I was genuinely glad DSG's membership included people with varying objectives. In face-to-face discussions, I tend the opposite way - I want all members to like-minded. But on the internet, it seems to work better the way it is. As for the rest of your post, all I can say is, "Guilty as charged." :-) Ken H > KenH says: > However, this is nothing to get upset about because there is only > the present moment. Outside of the present five khandhas, there is > nothing than can have any effect on us. And there is no "us" - > anywhere - for it to have any effect on. > __________________________________________________________________ > Charles Perera says: > > "the present moment" exists but one cannot make a whole philosophy > out of that. There is of course "you" and "me" "he" "them" and > whole of the world. That is not a lie. That is the truth- sammuti > sacca or the conventional truth. > > Well rest of what KenH says is more or less the same thing, ad > infinitum. > > Point is that Ken H thinks he is living in a world of > paramattadhamma. When he looks into the mirror, there is no image, > because he is empty. When he goes to have his breakfast, there is no > kitchen, no table, no chair, no plate, no food and no KenH. This is > a dialog without "any body" because according to KenH nothing exists. > No "me" No "us" > > With metta (nevertheless) > > Hasituppada; 45379 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 9:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Charles and Lisa(*) and all Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Charles. > I can understand your concerns; however, I remember Noble referring to some one that is moral and ethical. A person was considered Noble because he/she was good natured, liked, and respected for it. So yes, a Noble person had a certain degree of enlightenment, morality, one of the three pillars of the eight-fold- path (the other two being wisdom and concentration). Ph: Well, I'm not sure about this. There are suttas that distinguish between "worldlings" (albeit "uninstructed" ones) and "noble disciples" (albeit "instructed" ones.) I notice that in a sutta translation used by Nina we find "well-taught ariyan disciple" instead of "instructed noble disciple." So I still suspect "noble" might refer to sotapannas etc. But I'm also not sure if this distinction should keep us from emulating the practices of enlightened ones. Again, I suspect we should be wary of emulating them, because without the degree of understanding they have, we will fool ourselves if we think we can gain the results described in suttas. Just my hunch... I think of SN 22.61 (abbreviated version of 35:28, "Burning" i.e the Fire suta.) "Bhikkhus form (etc) is burning. Seeing this, the instructed noble disciple (i.e well-taught ariyan disciple, if we accept that translation used by Nina) experiences revulsion towards form etc. Experience revulsion, he becomes dispassionate" and so on. I know the first few times I read this sutta, I interpreted it to mean that I, an ignorance drenched worldling, could experience this revulsion and detachment. I'm sure I'm not the only foolish (but well-intentioned) person who has interpreted it this way. But I am not a noble disciple, yet, and the "revulsion" refers to seeing things with a degree of insight that goes well beyond intellectual understanding. (According to B Bodhi's commentarial notes) This is just one of countless examples of suttas that can easily be misinterpreted. I just urge caution, that's all. If one person reading this realizes that suttas are not as easy to understand as they might think, I will have helped one person out. And if one person comes to understand that an intellectual understanding of Abhidhamma greatly deepens our intellectual understanding of suttas, I will be even happier! >> Phil, you stated, "laypeople who have busy lives in the sensation drenched modern world, attempting to cut that off and behave like monks is just an exercise in self-enjoyment disguised as liberation - so subtly disguised that they themselves often don't know that it's going on." > > Is that self-enjoyment disguised as liberation causing suffering, or is it suffering in its-self. I say neither, unless it causes the layperson to neglect his/her duty. Ph: "Neglect one's duty" - that's a helpful phrase, thanks. Another one of my hunches tells me that when people place emphasis on developing sati intentionally, by formally meditating, believing that it increases the likelihood of sati increasing, they thereby come to beleive that in daily life there is less likelihood of sati increasing, and could neglect the duty they have to examine all experience and come to understand it. (Conditions permitting.) But I know I tend to be too critical of formal meditation, based on how misguided my attempts at it were. I shouldn't assume people are as ignorant as I am! (But I still tend to do so...sorry all!) > > In this sensation drenched modern world, wouldn't an exercise in self-enjoyment disguised as liberation mean there are periods of no- suffering? and perhaps periods where the three (i.e., morality, wisdom, and concentration) could be developed? and maybe even enlightenment cultivated. > > Could you imagine not having those periods? PH: Charles, I do appreciate that any kind of liberation from Dhamma that we gain is helpful for reducing suffering. I am not a sour person - I'm quite sweet. I write children's stories about healing. I want people to feel better. But when it comes to Dhamma, I still suspect that there are forms of meditation that in the wrong hands lead to people feeling temporary relief from suffering, but lead to deepening their roots in samsara, because there is this belief that kusala cittas can be generated intentionally... > Sour grapes are often used to make vinegar or even some wines, so try not to throw away a useful resource. Ph: Thanks. Yesterday I made a bitter and fairly (but not completely) foolish attack on Thanissaro Bhikkhu (not the last time, I'm sure) and indirectly on Lisa, who quoted him. (*Sorry Lisa - I think I overdid it, but I know you're cool about that sort of thing.) I listen to the DSG Bangkok talks on tape, and there is a certain consistency of view, which helps me to undertand better (be brainwashed better, my friend James would say) but then when I come to the internet there is nothing but disagreement, and I guess I get frustrated. But as Ken said, there can be a different dynamic in the face to face talks and internet. I will look at my sour grapes when they arise (and they will, often) and know them to the degree I am capable of as annica, dukkha and anatta. Metta, Phil 45380 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 190 - Enthusiasm/piiti (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] There is another aspect of píti: it can become an enlightenment factor . The other enlightenment factors are, as we have seen, mindfulness, investigation of the Dhamma (dhamma vicaya), energy (viriya), calm (passaddhi), concentration (samådhi) and equanimity (upekkhå)(1). When the enlightenment factors have been developed through satipaììhåna, they lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. When we have just started to be mindful of nåma and rúpa, we cannot expect the enlightenment factors to be developed yet. They will develop through satipaììhåna. *** 1) See Chapter 9, Viriya. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45381 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 190 - Enthusiasm/piiti (h) philofillet Hi all > When the enlightenment factors have been developed through satipa?E håna, > they lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. When we have just > started to be mindful of nåma and rúpa, we cannot expect the enlightenment > factors to be developed yet. They will develop through satipa?Ehån a. I remember when I first read about the enlightenment factors a couple of years ago - probably in a book by Thich Nhat Hahn - there was a teaching that we should develop the stirring factors when sluggish, and the calming factors when restless or agitated. That seems dubious to me now, though of course if calming factors arise when we are agitated etc, it can be appreciated. We can't intentionally cause the arising of enlightenment factors - that seems pretty clear to me now. Metta, Phil 45382 From: "hasituppada" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 11:52pm Subject: Re: Breathing. - Sukinder's Pudding - Hasituppada hasituppada Dear KenH, No, there had been no insult, we are only emphasising what we say in various ways. But I think you should read Suttas for what they are without using them to explain your own narrow views based on Abhidhamma. That way you will understand what really is Buddhism. Otherwise you will be walking out side the teachings of the Buddha. I am copying an extract made in another post which explains the differenc in Abhidhamma and Buddha's teachings to his followers. "As to the relation of the teachings of the Abhidhamma to those of the Sutta Pitaka, two very apt comparisons given in a conversation by the late Venerable Pelene VajirananaMaha Nayake Thera of Vajirarama, Colombo may be added in conclusion: The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying-glass, but the understanding gained from the Sutta is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Sutta is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance and the suffering caused by it." ( Abhidhamma Studies( Research in Buddhist Psychology) by Nyanaponika Thera-Buddhist Publication Society Kandy.)" with metta, Hasituppada 45383 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2005 0:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause sarahprocter... Hi Larry (& Htoo), Just butting in on this important point - I'll try to keep it v.plain. --- Larry wrote: > > > Htoo: > > > 1. visual object ruupa > > > 2. sense-door ruupa eye > > > 3. eye-consciousness > > > 4. contact > > > These arise together. All are not concept. > > > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > > > If all 4 _together_ are realities then you have 4 realities that > > are > > the > > > object of one consciousness. .... S: No, as Htoo explained, only the visual object rupa here is the object of eye-consciousness. Only one object is ever experienced at a time as you rightly say. However, many different namas and rupas arise and fall away at that and every moment. For example, eye-consciousness is accompanied by 7 cetasikas (including contact) as we know at the moment it experiences that visual object. The visual object does not arise alone, but in a group or kalapa of rupas. It is supported by the primary rupas and other essential 'ingredients', but only visual object is seen. Likewise, there is also the eye-base rupa and its kalapa of rupas arising at that moment in order for the seeing to take place. .... >Same as kalapa. How can that be? ... So any rupa always arises in a kalapa as you point out - it cannot arise alone. However, only one characteristic of a rupa is ever experienced at any moment. For example, when temperature is experienced, hardness supports it and so do the other essential rupas in the kalapa. It depends on conditions what is experienced. <....> > I don't understand your argument. If something is real it must be > capable of being an object of consciousness. ... S: Yes, depending on conditions. ... >If "with" is real then > consciousness must potentially have two objects. If the 4 _together_ > are real then some consciousness must be able to perceive them > together. ... S: No, because in order for that 'real' object to be experienced, many conditions are required. For visual object to be experienced, there must be seeing consciousness as a result of kamma, accompnaying cetasikas inc. phassa, eye-base, the supporting rupas, previous cittas and so on. Please let me know if this is still not clear - I understand the difficulty. Metta, Sarah ======== 45384 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2005 1:50am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear CharlesP:-), --- hasituppada wrote: > Charles Perera says: > > Different people have different points of views, it had been so > since the beginning of time. World is such and we have to put up > with that sort of annoyance. ... S: I agree with the first sentence. Truly, I don't find it annoying at all when people read different texts/articles or come to different points of view. I also don't find it fearful, threatening or any of the other things suggested by some:-). .... > Charles Perera Says: > > For the purpose of Bhavana the whole of Tipitaka is not necessary. > Maha Satipatthana Sutta gives all the necessary instructions. ... S: IF sufficient wisdom has been developed when we read or hear this sutta, I agree. For most of us, we need to read, question and consider a lot more in order to understand the sutta to be about dhammas to be directly known in daily life at any moment rather than as a set of 'necessary instructions' as I see it. .... >If > Bhavana is done under the guidance of a good teacher he will guide > you along. > Eventually you will understand the Panchakkhandha. It is a path > traced by the Buddha to start from what you know now, to discover > what is not yet known. .... S: This is how I was taught in the beginning, under what you would describe as very good teachers. However, I realised it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath, eyes closed, slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments. Then it dawned on me that the teaching is about dhammas, about anatta and that these dhammas couldn't be controlled in anyway. Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. I'm just mentioning this because you seem to have the idea that if only some of us would go on a retreat, learn to meditate and so on, we'd come to our senses. In fact many of us (those you are concerned about) have been model meditators:-). .... > Sarah says: > > I'm familiar with this regimen, but did the Buddha ever say that > listening (no reading then:-)) or discussion should be put aside at > the > outset of bhavana? What about all those who became enlightened whilst > listening? In fact aren't suta maya panna (listening) and cinta maya > panna(careful reflecting) the very conditions for bhavana maya panna? > .... > __________________________________________________________________ > > > Charles Perera says: <..> > Second part of the question, may be the extreme saddha and a moment > of deep concentration equal to an jhana absorption that broke loose > the identity of self. I do not think one can attain bhavanamaya > panna so easily. A sotapanna has still not attained panna…. .... S: On the other hand, I'd say that panna had to be developed with the saddha in order for the self-view to be eradicated by the lokuttara cittas. Panna has to begin by knowing the present namas and rupas appearing. ... > ___________________________________________________________________ > Sarah says: <...> > (b)For example, Visakkha became a sotapanna at the age of 7 and > continued to lead a very worldly kind of life. Is there any > suggestion that she had attained any jhanas before becoming > enlightened? > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Charles Perera says: <...> > (b)After becoming a Sotapanna one can continue to sit Samatha again > and again and have jhana absorptions. ... S: If such samatha has been developed to this degree. Is there any suggestion anywhere in the Tipitaka that Visakkha, for example, ever 'sat Samatha' or attained jhana absorptions? I don't think so. .... > Charles Perera says: > > I cannot understand the question as it is put. (what I cannot under > stand is why: at each moment of Kusala. So at moments of Vipassana) ... S: Samatha (tranquillity or calm) refers to pasaddhi cetasika which accompanies all wholesome cittas. ... > There isn't just a moment…. Samatha is developed taking a parikamma > nimitta. That is any "object" the breath or a kasina ( do not worry > about pannatti or no-pannatti) just an object. ... S: This is the development of samatha, but first there has to be a clear understanding of which moments are kusala and which are akusala, otherwise it cannot develop just by taking such an object. For example, all the students in my yoga class focus very well on their breath. Are they all developing samatha? Does it help them to develop satipatthana? I don't think so. .... > Sarah says: > > I think the texts make it clear that when the lokuttara cittas > arise, the concentration and accompanying factors such as samma- > sankappa are of the degree of jhana by nature of the object > (nibbana) automatically. > _____________________________________________________________________ > Charles says: > Sorry, I do not understand what you mean. > ____________________________________________________________________ S: What I mean is that we have to know when the reference is to jhana, whether it is referring to prior attainement of jhanas or to concentration etc which are of the degree of jhana at this time, even for those with no prior attainment. See U.P. Jhanas - two meanings. .... > > Sarah says: > > Even if highly developed samatha bhavana were essential first, it can > still only be developed with understanding and not by will or > concentration. <...> > Charles Perera says: > Yes one has to prepare oneself for Samatha meditation. There has to > be effort, Samma Vayama. Understanding (samma sankappa), about the > four noble truths, and the noble eight fold path are essential for > a Buddhist. That is the first of the eight fold path. ... S: When you say that 'one has to prepare oneself for Samatha meditation', again it's different from how I understand samatha bhavana (meditation) to develop. In other words, I believe it is the kusala citta (and cetasikas) that are important, rather than the place or way of sitting. ... I appreciate your goodwill and also good humour over your name:-) it's really good to have you around and I mean that most sincerely. Metta, Sarah p.s You mentioned to Chris that 'Abhidhamma was not taught....to the Buddhist lay followers in the Buddhist country (i.e Sri Lanka) I come from.' BB writes in the intro to CMA: "In the Theravada tradition the Abhidhamma Pitaka is held in the highest esteem, revered as the crown jewel of the Buddhist scriptures. As examples of this high regard, in Sri Lanka King Kassapa V (tenth century A.C.) had the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka inscribed on gold plates and the first book set in gems, while another king, Vijayabahu (eleventh century) used to study the Dhammasangani each morning before taking up his royal duties and composed a translation of it into Sinhala." In general, I'm sure your comments are correct about the decline of interest more recently, but I also don't think it's quite true to say that there hasn't been any Abhidhamma study by lay people there in modern times or that it has only been for research. Indeed, while he lived in Thailand, Jon and others distributed copies of Nina's book, ADL in Sri Lanka because of interest and further copies were published at one time. These were mostly to lay folk and not 'intellectually bent persons' in particular. I joined Nina and K.Sujin on a couple of visits in the 70s when quite a large number of lay followers would attend every evening to hear more and I got to know some of them very well who had a keen interest in the Abhidhamma as applied in their ordinary daily lives. (Incidentally, this was when I first met B.Bodhi at one talk held in Kandy, and also Ven Nyanaponika at the Forest Hermitage a couple of times - fortunately not 'retreated':-)). ======== 45385 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism sarahprocter... Hi Lisa (Nana go lightly:-), Thx for labelling the nice pic - --- Lisa wrote: > L: The remembering that is Sati is also tied to visual perception? ... S: sati remembers or is heedful, not forgetful of kusala. In other words, it prevents akusala when it arises. Hence there is sati with all wholesome moments of consciousness. When it comes to sati of satipatthana, it is aware or heedful of the reality being experienced, whether that be visual object or any other dhamma. (Btw, lots in Useful Posts under 'concepts and realities' as in another thread of yours). ... > And is it also that, which knows what is sensation or feeling before > labels, names, and other fabrications are set into action? ... S: Yes, if there is awareness at such a time of either the rupa (such as the tangible object) or the nama (such as feeling) is experienced. Sati is aware, panna knows. ... > Sati is not the name of the keys or bowl or the idea or thoughts > that this is the way I will not lose my keys if they are in the bowl > by the door, that is very empty I have found that kind of > mindfulness worth while help get to work on time because I know > where my keys are lol. ... S: lol too - no need to tone down. If Htoo can follow Connie, he'll soon learn your short-hand:-). Yes, conventional awareness (and making conventional decisions, Howard:-)) is very useful....just not to be confused with the 'real' thing. ... > L: I will go more into ritual as I explore what it means to me as I > walk through this bewildering area of sense data in Buddhism. I must > look up the word silabbataparamasa, I know what sila means in > addition I must look the word up so I can understand your message > more deeply. ... S: I like the way you do your own research and check meanings - keep sharing your findings. Again, try U.P. too, perhaps. ... > > > S: I was going to bring in the stringing of the threads of pearls, > but they're not in the bowl either right now – Connie may have seen > them;-). > > L: I will try and be patient...lol looks for Connie. ... S: Connie may have had another computer burn-out or flood while stringing threads:-/ Here's one I was thinking of which is quoted here in a post of Nina's: ">The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: ** Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: " ... S: The many conditions which need to concur for one moment of kusala, for one moment of sati to arise, like the stringing of pearl in the dark by a flash of lightning...and understanding the complexity of conditions even a little by understanding dhammas as anatta, the conceit that we can control them will be 'subdued'..... Really good having you around, Lisa -- a great asset to the list. Metta, Sarah p.s yes, panic attacks and all - we can follow any strategies we find helpful and live happily and easily, but at the same time, understand that our life at these and any moments are mere conditioned dhammas not at the beck and call of anyone's will - no conflict at all:-) ======= 45386 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:05am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Htoo: > What I posted was from 'genuine sutta'. Even these 'words' are > attacked. I think this is because of 'already holding light'. > > What I have been doing is searching for things as they are while the > light arises from the searcher own eyes. > > Would you say 'The Buddha is wrong to preach to his disciples as - > gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'? Sukinder: To discuss the meaning of statements given by the Buddha, I need not only to be well read with regard to the Sutta and commentaries, but also have to have some proficiency in pali. In both areas, I am extremely poor. Using only reasoning based on my general understanding isn't good enough. Of course, anything the Buddha stated is in accordance with the Truth and cannot have double meaning. This makes it an even more daunting task requiring great responsibility, and I'm not known to be very discreet. But I will express some general views with the idea that it is the best so far, and that all other interpretations put forward by others are not consistent with what I understand the Teachings to be. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta may be said on one level to be an `instruction' given by the Buddha. However I think this is more in the form of "reminder" than something to "do". After all we are dealing with conditioned cittas and cetasikas and not conventional reality. As you know, sati does not arise just by observing posture and bodily movement. It can be sati and panna or it can be lobha-mula-citta with wrong view which does the observation. Don't you think that it is likely that `ditthi' would arise when we purposefully observe the posture and movement? When on the other, these conventional realities happen to be the object of consciousness without any view that *this is the right practice*, then indeed by upanissaya paccaya they can condition satipatthana. I think being worldlings, when we hear of this instruction of the Buddha, we more likely approach it the wrong way. My understanding is that the Sutta was given to those disciples who already had very developed sati. For them the sati arose so readily that at every bodily activity, satipatthana could alternate with cittas having posture as object. So it is by pakattupanissaya paccaya that the latter would condition the former. The Buddha's instruction worked for them "directly", i.e. it conditioned patipatti and even pativedha. For us, we need to have correct pariyatti, this being the best that will most likely be conditioned to arise by pakattupanissaya paccaya on hearing these same instructions. But because of wrong understanding, instead it ends up conditioning wrong practice for some of us. We think that it is `deliberate looking' which will condition satipatthana, not knowing about the different conditions, particularly pakattupanissaya paccaya. In fact I think, sign of progress along the path is determined by the different states of mind while engaging in varying activities and situations serving as pakattupanissaya paccaya for sati of whatever level to arise. From this point of view too, deliberate practice seem to lead to a different direction that the right one. This is why when I first heard K. Sujin state that the Teachings are to be seen as `descriptive' instead of `prescriptive', it made sense to me. I think this difference in view point is decisive in whether indeed there will be further development of Right View. Metta, Sukinder 45387 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:07am Subject: Dhamma Thread (356) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 akusala vaci kamma. They are 1. telling lies 2. telling divisive speech 3. telling harsh speech 4. telling unfruitful speech or non-sense speech Telling lie or musaavaada is the leader of all these 4 akusala vaci kamma. When these 4 verbal actions are checked, they will be in some way related to musaavaada kamma. The 1st kamma musaavaada is definitely musaavaada or lying. The 2nd akusala vaci kamma called pisuna vaacaa or telling divisive speech may also be musaavaada. The 3rd akusala vaci kamma called pharusa vaacaa or telling hrash speech is usually untrue words. The 4th akusala vaci kamma called samphappalaapa or telling unfruitful speech or telling tales is also related to musaavaada kamma. But there is difference between 'telling real stories as evidence to support proposition which bear fruit is not samphappalaapa. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45388 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 11, 2005 3:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > -- The Anattalakkhana Sutta does not directly define self (atta) or not- > self (anatta), but rather gives a logical deduction on the self view of > the > pancakkhandha. It essentially states that the 5 aggregates are anatta > because they are subject to disease (aabaadha) and so they cannot > be controlled accoding to one's wishes. ... S: A little fine-tuning in this post. I think it says that because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to disease, and as you say, they cannot be controlled according to one’s wishes. [Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkave, ruupa.m (etc) anatta (since rupa is anatta), tasmaa ruupa.m aabaadhaaya sa.mvattati (then rupa is subject to disease), na ca labbhati ruupe: ‘eva.m me ruupa.m hotu, eva.m me ruupa.m maa ahosii’ti (one cannot obtain from rupa, may rupa be thus, may rupa not be thus).] .... >Therefore, (the logical > deduction that follows is that) it would be wrong to have the following > viewpoint on each of the five aggregates : 'This is mine, this is I, > this is > my self'. ... S: Yes ... > The reverse of this deduction must be true, i.e. one may think > > of each of the 5 aggregates as 'This is mine, this is I, this is my > self', if > and only if it is an atta (self), which is free from disease and can be > controlled according to one's wishes. ... S: I would say, if and only if there is the illusion of self, there is the idea of being able to control the khandhas. If there were a self, rupa would not be subject to disease and one would be able to control them according to one’s wishes, but clearly this isn’t so. .... > > T: >Such a self view reflects a wrong attitude - a miccha ditthi, > >because 'self ' is real only to people who have upadana > >on the aggregates. > .... > S: I assume you mean the wrong view of self is real. Of course, > upadana or craving can be with or without wrong view. A sotapanna > has craving, but no wrong view. > > T: I don't follow your reasoning. Why do you assume that "the wrong > view of self is real"? ... S: Miccha-ditthi is real. Wrong view is a cetasika which arises with certain kinds of cittas rooted in lobha. When it arises, there is a distorted idea of realities at that moment. The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. The ditthi itself has to be known over and over again when it arises in order for it to be eventually eradicated at the stage of sotapanna. ... >However, I agree that upadana on any kind of > viewpoint can happen. ... S: Yes, there can be clinging to any object (except nibbana and lokuttara cittas I believe). There can certainly be clinging to right view/wisdom or other wholesome states. .... <....> > S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and > self is > thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements > (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta > extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the > contrary. > > T: By agreeing, it means that you also have the same extreme view on > self. Do you want to change that wrong view now? ... S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were warned:-). ... <...> > T: According to the conventional truth, both Bush and Iraq are real. > According to the Anattalakkhana Sutta, President Bush and Iraq and > also Bush's decision are Anatta -- i.e. all three should not be taken as > > self because they are subject to disease and do not obey our wishes > that they should be this and that, or they should not be this or that. .... S: The sutta said rupa, vedana etc are anatta and therefore subject to disease etc. Are Bush and Iraq rupa, vedana or what khandha? .... > In > other words, we should not have a wrong view that they can be taken > for granted. All these logical deductions do not mean that President > Bush and Iraq and also Bush's decision were not real -- because they > existed in that moment. .... S: Were they seen? Were they heard? Were they felt? How were they experienced? .... >Bush made that decision and they existed in > the past.Of course all dhammas (thinking, decision, intention, > pancakkhandha of Bush) then and now are anatta. This is not an > extreme viewpoint. .... S: So are you saying that there were conditions for those various khandhas to arise, not in the control or command of any self or Bush? If so, no problem. ... > I am learning to replace my view on atta and anatta. Certainly, there is >more to learn while panna is being developed. ... S: Yes, I think there’s always more and more refining of view and development of panna necessary. Very good points and sutta extracts to keep discussing and reflecting on. Metta. Sarah p.s I hoped to add to the walking discussions but out of time – hope others will continue them. ========= 45389 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue May 10, 2005 10:33pm Subject: Exalted Tranquillity ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Gradually Deeper Successive Stillings: In the 1st meditative jhâna absorption, all sense-desire ceases. In the 2nd meditative jhâna absorption, conceptual thinking ceases. In the 3rd meditative jhâna absorption, enraptured joy ceases. In the 4th meditative jhâna absorption, breathing in & out ceases. In the sphere of infinite space, experience of form & sense reaction ceases. In the sphere of infinite consciousness, experience of infinite space ceases. In the sphere of nothingness, experience of infinite consciousness ceases. In the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, nothingness ceases. When attaining complete mental cessation, all perception and sensation ceases. These 9 sublime states have been perfectly formulated by the blessed Buddha, who knew & saw directly. therefore should we recite them together for the future advantage , welfare and happiness for both the line and human beings... Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 33 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html For the complete details of the entrance to these exalted states see: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Chapter III-XI: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45390 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: Metta and the world 2. matheesha333 Yes, thanks Htoo, for the light in dark places. metta Matheesha 45391 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 11, 2005 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Larry & Htoo) - In a message dated 5/11/05 3:27:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Larry (& Htoo), Just butting in on this important point - I'll try to keep it v.plain. --- Larry wrote: > > > Htoo: > > > 1. visual object ruupa > > > 2. sense-door ruupa eye > > > 3. eye-consciousness > > > 4. contact > > > These arise together. All are not concept. > > > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > > > If all 4 _together_ are realities then you have 4 realities that > > are > > the > > > object of one consciousness. .... S: No, as Htoo explained, only the visual object rupa here is the object of eye-consciousness. Only one object is ever experienced at a time as you rightly say. However, many different namas and rupas arise and fall away at that and every moment. For example, eye-consciousness is accompanied by 7 cetasikas (including contact) as we know at the moment it experiences that visual object. The visual object does not arise alone, but in a group or kalapa of rupas. It is supported by the primary rupas and other essential 'ingredients', but only visual object is seen. Likewise, there is also the eye-base rupa and its kalapa of rupas arising at that moment in order for the seeing to take place. .... >Same as kalapa. How can that be? ... So any rupa always arises in a kalapa as you point out - it cannot arise alone. However, only one characteristic of a rupa is ever experienced at any moment. For example, when temperature is experienced, hardness supports it and so do the other essential rupas in the kalapa. It depends on conditions what is experienced. <....> > I don't understand your argument. If something is real it must be > capable of being an object of consciousness. ... S: Yes, depending on conditions. ... >If "with" is real then > consciousness must potentially have two objects. If the 4 _together_ > are real then some consciousness must be able to perceive them > together. ... S: No, because in order for that 'real' object to be experienced, many conditions are required. For visual object to be experienced, there must be seeing consciousness as a result of kamma, accompnaying cetasikas inc. phassa, eye-base, the supporting rupas, previous cittas and so on. Please let me know if this is still not clear - I understand the difficulty. Metta, Sarah ====================== Here is my personal, non-Abhidhamma hypothesis: Many phenomena "arise in conciousness" at the same time, including various rupas (an entire kalapa thereof) and numerous cetasikas. Quite shortly after experiencing hardness, for example, there is the recalling that other rupas and a variety of cetasikas, including pleasant feeling for example, were present as well. Such veridical recollecting could not take place unless the prior experiences actually occurred. But there are levels of intensity to experiential presence of phenomena, and at any moment all but one phenomenon occur subliminally as regards awareness of them, and only the one that is not subliminal registers at the level of "object". It is like a choir of people on a stage. They are all there, but only one is soloist. Which particular phenomenon occurs strongly enough to register as object is multiply conditioned, largely by kamma, and even with regard to actual objects, not all of them are strong enough to clearly "register". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45392 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 8:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (357) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 akusala kamma based on where kamma are committed. That is kamma are classified as 3 based on kamma-dvaara or kamma-door. Kamma are committed at body-door or kaaya-dvara and manifest as ( akusala citta + akusala cittaja rupa kaaya-vinatti rupa ), committed at vaci-dvaara or verbal-door and manifest as ( akusala citta + akusala cittaja rupa vaci-vinatti rupa ), and committed at mano-dvaara or mind- door and manifest as ( akusala citta + akusala cittaja rupa without vinatti ruupa ). So there are 3 akusala kamma and they are kaaya-akusala-kamma, vaci- akusala-kamma, and mano-akusala-kamma. Kaaya-akusala-kamma and vaci-akusala-kamma have been discussed in the previous posts under heading of Dhamma Thread. There are mano-akusala-kamma. They are kamma that are totally confined to mind-door or mano-dvaara and they are not associated with any vinatti ruupas at all. There are 3 akusala mano-kamma. They are 1. abhijjhaa 2. byaapaada 3. micchaa-ditthi Abhijjhaa is a kamma that are mental activities wishing to possess properties or things that are owned by others beings. The base dhamma that underlie this abhijjhaa kamma is lobha cetasika. Byaapaada ( spell as Vyapada in PTS ) is a kamma that are mental activities wishing destruction of others' properties, fames, good reputation etc etc. The base dhamma that underlie this byaapaada kamma is dosa cetasika or aversion. Micchaa-ditthi is a mano-kamma that is they are mental activities that wrongly see things with wrong view. Examples are the beliefs that 'worshipping to trees' 'worshipping to seas' 'worshipping to the earth' 'worshipping to the sky' are the cause of liberation. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45393 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, S:However, I realised it was all motivated > by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following > instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath, eyes closed, > slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific > results and attainments. Then it dawned on me that the teaching is about > dhammas, about anatta and that these dhammas couldn't be controlled in > anyway. Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in > Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from > the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read > and study and have fun too. I must say that I have been helped greatly by 'meditating all those hours in the day and 'living unnaturally' as you put it. :) You might note many suttas where the buddha praises a great disciple in meditation in a jungle without even a single movement of the body. You might note other places where they are practicing walking meditation, enjoying fewness of desires and even fewer meals and hours asleep. :) I think its not just me, but hundreds if not thousands who keep coming back to same meditation centre bear witness to how useful it is. Most of them have removed any concept of self from their minds because they have experienced the five aggreagates at their roots and seeing their impermanence and see with direct vision that the idea of the self is false. This might sound like a mad statement, but i do ask you to consider the possibility of what is outside general experience. Yes of course it is motivated by desire and a sense of self. Once VenAnanda was questioned by an ascetic about the buddhist path and he talks about the 4 bases of power (sathara iddipada) of which the first one is canda, which is a form of desire. The ascetic says that this path is impossible because we are trying to irradicate desire with desire. (regardless of the abhidhammic explanation to this..) ven Ananada explains it thruogh a similie. That is it is like the desire a king has to enter the royal grounds and enjoy there. This desire drives him on his chariot there. However once he enters through the gates the desire disappears. The desire for the dhamma is like this then. To say that this is something wrong is to argue a point with Ven Ananda, the 'storekeeper of the dhamma' IMO! The same will happen to the sense of self too, and i have seen this happen. One just needs to take it all the way and not stop half way. There is a sutta where the buddha admonishes Anathapindika and says that lay people should spend time in seclusion, not just giving dana. I dont see anything wrong in spending a few weeks away on retreat as a necessary boost to develop some of the mental faculties the buddha speaks of. I have benefitted greatly from it and gained much insight which otherwise i would not have. Most sutta would be gibberish and just studying about the 'taste of oranges' if you know what i mean. There's no hindrence to coming back and living your life as it is. I'm sorry that you feel that such experience has not been useful to you. Do you really feel that it is not possible to experience such things as jhana mentioned in the suttas as we presently dont have enough good kamma, as was suggested by someone earlier? I am not questioning what works for you. We all have to tread our different paths. Different things work for different people. Most people who have benefitted from one method will prescribe it to others (and quite rightly so) but also denounce other methods. This is just a beginner's mistake. No one can say that any of the present paths are 'dysfunctional' as the only reason they have lasted for such a long time is that people have benefitted from them. They will merge and evolve and many interesting things will be available in the future. yours in dialogue, Matheesha 45394 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 4:14pm Subject: Kamma through mind door (Re: Dhamma Thread (357) philofillet Hello Htoo Thanks as always for this series. Your perseverence encourages me to persevere with my Dhamma study. I have a question that I'm sure occurs to many beginners. > Abhijjhaa is a kamma that are mental activities wishing to possess > properties or things that are owned by others beings. The base > dhamma that underlie this abhijjhaa kamma is lobha cetasika. >Byaapaada ( spell as Vyapada in PTS ) is a kamma that are mental >activities wishing destruction of others' properties, fames, good >reputation etc etc. The base dhamma that underlie this byaapaada >kamma >is dosa cetasika or aversion. Phil: Are kamma done through the mental door always less potent or harmful than kamma done through the body door? Is thinking of killing a human, for example, less potent than actually killing an insect? I think Rob M taught me on this point, and said that it is case by case, depending on the intensity of the intention, but I can't recall for sure. Also, is a kamma that is unprompted (ie an unwholesome thought that just arises on its own) more potent and harmful than a prompted thought (for example, we think of killing after watching a violent movie?) And if there is wrong view -"it doesn't matter if I do this - there is no result from kamma - I can get away with it" - does that make the kamma more potent? I guess we don't know, that the Buddha taught that trying to fingure out the precise working of kamma would drive us to distraction. In any case, I appreciate this reminder to be aware of akusala kamma through the mental door. I am slack in that department. Thanks in advance for your feedback. Metta, Phil 45395 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 4:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Exalted Tranquillity ... !!! Evan_Stamato... Great reminder! But I think we should do more than just "recite them together for the future advantage". We should practice them. With Metta, Evan Friends: Gradually Deeper Successive Stillings: In the 1st meditative jhâna absorption, all sense-desire ceases. In the 2nd meditative jhâna absorption, conceptual thinking ceases. In the 3rd meditative jhâna absorption, enraptured joy ceases. In the 4th meditative jhâna absorption, breathing in & out ceases. In the sphere of infinite space, experience of form & sense reaction ceases. In the sphere of infinite consciousness, experience of infinite space ceases. In the sphere of nothingness, experience of infinite consciousness ceases. In the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, nothingness ceases. When attaining complete mental cessation, all perception and sensation ceases. These 9 sublime states have been perfectly formulated by the blessed Buddha, who knew & saw directly. therefore should we recite them together for the future advantage , welfare and happiness for both the line and human beings... 45396 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 4:46pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and all others - I'd like to quote from your message #45379 and talk to you a little bit. >Phil: Well, I'm not sure about this. There are suttas that distinguish >between "worldlings" (albeit "uninstructed" ones) and "noble disciples" (albeit "instructed" ones.) I notice that in a sutta translation used by Nina we find "well-taught ariyan disciple" instead of "instructed noble disciple." So I still suspect "noble" might refer to sotapannas etc. >Phil: But I'm also not sure if this distinction should keep us from >emulating the practices of enlightened ones. Again, I suspect we >should be wary of emulating them, because without the degree of >understanding they have, we will fool ourselves if we think we can >gain the results described in suttas. Just my hunch... Phil: This is just one of countless examples of suttas that >can easily be misinterpreted. I just urge caution, that's all. If one >person reading this realizes that suttas are not as easy to >understand as they might think, I will have helped one person out. >And if one person comes to understand that an intellectual >understanding of Abhidhamma greatly deepens our intellectual >understanding of suttas, I will be even happier! Tep: I believe Nina's translation of Ariya savaka as "ariyan disciple" is 100% correct. However, it does not mean that all those suttas are not useful for worldlings. I believe that the term "Ariya savaka" in many suttas I have seen comes near the end of the discourses. For instance, in the SN 35.28 (Adittapapariyaya Sutta) the Buddha addressed the 1000 bhikkhus as "Bhikkhus" at the beginning. Then at the end of the discourse He talked about the Ariya savaka experiencing revulsion and detachment as the end result, the fruit of following the Teaching all the way through. Clearly, the Ariya savaka indicates the end state, not the beginning. "Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. ... ... ... ... "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, ... ... ... [Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation] Tep: I agree with you, Phil, that "well-instructed disciple of the noble ones" should be replaced by "well-taught ariyan disciple" . Respectfully, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Charles and Lisa(*) and all > > Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, Charles. > 45397 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Howard, In subsequent posts to the one you replied to I came to the conclusion that a group or compound, as such, has no intrinsic nature (sabhava), even if it is composed of realities with intrinsic nature. A kalapa or the mental body would be examples of this, but so would shape or motion, imo. These later two are often labelled concepts but I think it would be more accurate to call them formations insofar as they are formations of multiple consciousnesses. The point I am getting at is that ordinary experience isn't exactly conceptual but it is asabhava in the sense of being combinations of realities. I think it is this lack of center that makes ordinary experience fundamentally bewildering or uncognizable because a group both is and isn't an object of consciousness. I know this computer is here but I can't really see it. It is asabhava but also conditioned and impermanent on some level. I think there might be allusions to this phenomenon in the suttas in terms of "illusion" or "formation", but probably nothing definitive. A counter argument is that Vajira in SN says a chariot is just a word. Larry ------------------------ ps: actually Vajira doesn't say a chariot is just a word: p. 230 Wisdom SN. "Just as, with an assemblage of parts, the word 'chariot' is used, so when the aggregates exist, there is the convention 'a being'." 45398 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:34pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] philofillet Hi Tep, and all Good timing for me, Tep. I was just reading SN 22.99 (THe Leash) and reflecting on this very topic. > > Tep: I believe Nina's translation of Ariya savaka as "ariyan disciple" is > 100% correct. However, it does not mean that all those suttas are not > useful for worldlings. I believe that the term "Ariya savaka" in many > suttas I have seen comes near the end of the discourses. For instance, > in the SN 35.28 (Adittapapariyaya Sutta) the Buddha addressed the > 1000 bhikkhus as "Bhikkhus" at the beginning. Then at the end of the > discourse He talked about the Ariya savaka experiencing revulsion > and detachment as the end result, the fruit of following the Teaching all > the way through. Clearly, the Ariya savaka indicates the end state, not > the beginning. Ph: Yes, this is the usual pattern, isn't it? In the sutta I mentionned above, the Buddha describes very vividly the way worldlings wander around tied to their identity view like a dog leashed to a pole. And then we learn that the instructed noble disciple does not do this, does not regard form as self etc. ?@ ?@?@This is quite sobering, in a way, because it tells us that only the ariyan does not see form as self, etc. It suggests that until then we will remain in ignorance of the true nature of the khandas and will cling to them like dumb dogs (sorry Christine!) no matter how much we reflect on them, no matter how much we meditate on them. I'm glad to know this, because when I first started reading suttas, I thought that I could have moments of not regarding form (etc) as self (etc) quite easily, and of course I can intellectually, and it is helpful, but this is not the way it is seen by the ariyan. It is not the way it is described in the suttas such as the two we have referred to. I wonder if meditation teachers make this clear to their students? Well, I guess what they do is promise that students can become sotapanna within weeks of practice etc. Perhaps they can. I shouldn't assume that they can't - after all, we know about the seven day plan laid out in the satipatthana sutta. But I remain wary of teachers that promise quick results to modern worldlings, whose conditions and accumulations are so radically different from worldings in the Buddha's day. So what do we do? Give up? Remain content with shallow intellectual knowledge? No, there is great value of small moments of mindfulness - the water pot is filled ever so slowly, drop by drop, as the Dhammapada puts it. It is better to be patient than to try to fill the pot in a hurry. That'll just burst the pot! (Our pots are in very bad condition, very corrupt, because of the world we live in, maybe?) Tep, I remember the analogy of the casino you used. It was very vivid and will stick with me. You described this ever-so-patient approach to mindfulness encouraged by Kh Sujin and others as random, like the roulette ball falling into place, I thnk. And of course, gambling and hoping for results at a casino is unwholesome and depressing and pathetic. I know that your chanda to develop mindfulness in a more intentional way is wholesome and you want to share your enthusiasm with others. That's so clear. Continuing to read your posts will help me to keep an open mind toward more intentional ways of developing mindfulness. And I hope that you too will come to see that there is nothing pessimistic or passive about finding value in apparently random (but not so - there are conditions at work) moments of mindfulness in daily life. Metta, Phil 45399 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 5:35pm Subject: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and others - I believe that this thread is important, although the topic of atta/anatta has been discussed many times already. >T: ....the 5 aggregates are anatta because they are subject to disease (aabaadha) ... S: ... because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to disease.. T: Isn't it true both ways? ---------------------------- S: Miccha-ditthi is real. Wrong view is a cetasika which arises with certain kinds of cittas rooted in lobha. When it arises, there is a distorted idea of realities at that moment. T: Yes, miccha-ditthi is real just as panca kkhandha is real, in the sense of existence at a given moment. One who has a wrong view, does not see characteristics of dhammas the way they really are. ----------------------------- S: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. T: I think you may be contradicting to what you just said above. If the wrong view of self (miccha-ditthi) is real, how can the concepts of self be unreal? The "concepts of self" are also a viewpoint, a ditthi. The contradiction comes from an attachment to the Paramattha-dhamma definition of pannatti. [:->) ---------------- [ Please read Lisa's message # 45324 on extreme viewpoints.] > T: By agreeing, it means that you also have the same extreme view on self. Do you want to change that wrong view now? ... S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were warned:-). T: Please be precise -- write down the "above", because I don't know which part of the above you referred to. Look, you might miss a chance to abandon your extreme view of no self! [ :->) -------------- S: Yes, I think there's always more and more refining of view and development of panna necessary. Very good points and sutta extracts to keep discussing and reflecting on. T: It is so important that we are learning and adjusting/refining views for the better. Otherwise, why are we spending time discussing the Dhamma? Thank you for the appreciation. Your discussion points are very good too, Sarah. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > > > Sarah > p.s I hoped to add to the walking discussions but out of time – hope > others will continue them. > ========= 45400 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 7:08pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhistmedi... Hi Phil and others - I am glad that the two suttas we have read give us a clear understanding of the practically-zero chance the uninstructed worldings have to escape the samsara. T: I like it very much, Phil, that you are a real fighter even when the chance to lose is gigantic. T: In the last paragraph of your post the word "random" was mentioned twice; the second time I read the word a sanna arose in me. It turned on the "memory switch" of mine and I recalled a sutta (Thai version) about how small the chance of an uninstructed (ignorant) wordling to come back to the world again after he died. The Buddha compared the chance of returning to the world to the chance that a deep-sea turtle would rise up to the water surface exactly at the same spot it did the last time! This is a simile of randomness to me. One may say that the chance to win a casino game is a lot higher than the chance that an ignorant person may have another return to the world! Phil: Continuing to read your posts will help me to keep an open mind toward more intentional ways of developing mindfulness. And I hope that you too will come to see that there is nothing pessimistic or passive about finding value in apparently random (but not so - there are conditions at work) moments of mindfulness in daily life. T: I want James to read your sweet-and-kind diplomatic statements, Phil. This is the only way to win hearts of the people, I think. It is so very true that every good discussion is a two-way communication. O.K. Phil, I'll have an open mind towards your "drop-by-drop" approach too. Thank you for the suggestion. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep, and all > > > Good timing for me, Tep. I was just reading SN 22.99 (THe > Leash) and reflecting on this very topic. > (snipped) > > > Tep, I remember the analogy of the casino you used. It was very > vivid and will stick with me. You described this ever-so-patient > approach to mindfulness encouraged by Kh Sujin and others as random, > like the roulette ball falling into place, I thnk. And of course, > gambling and hoping for results at a casino is unwholesome and > depressing and pathetic. I know that your chanda to develop > mindfulness in a more intentional way is wholesome and you want to > share your enthusiasm with others. That's so clear. > Continuing to read your posts will help me to keep an open mind > toward more intentional ways of developing mindfulness. And I hope > that you too will come to see that there is nothing pessimistic or > passive about finding value in apparently random (but not so - there > are conditions at work) moments of mindfulness in daily life. > > Metta, > Phil 45401 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 8:59pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Phil and others - > T: I want James to read your sweet-and-kind diplomatic statements, > Phil. This is the only way to win hearts of the people, I think. It is so very > true that every good discussion is a two-way communication. > > O.K. Phil, I'll have an open mind towards your "drop-by-drop" approach > too. Thank you for the suggestion. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > ===== Yes, I read his statements, and your statements. Phil is so sweet, and you are so sweet. You are both so so sweet- so sweet that reading your posts aggravates my hypoglycemia! ;-)) (just kidding). Really, I don't care much about Phil's approach to the dhamma, or your approach to the dhamma- I really only care about what the Buddha taught regarding the dhamma. You can both agree with each other, shake hands, and go to sleep with smiles on your faces- but it won't mean jack squat if your practices don't truly correspond to the Noble Eightfold Path. What I like to read is for people to beautifully elucidate the Buddha's teaching so that I am more inspired to practice. That is why I read posts. I don't like to read debates, or compromises, or two-way communications, and all that stuff- what's the point of all that? It's just ego stroking. Maybe I am wrong in my approach, but that is the way I am now. I'll give it some more thought. Metta, James 45402 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 8:51pm Subject: The Prime Benefits ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Fourfold Advantage: A deity once asked the Buddha: What is good, when one is old ? What is good, when established ? What is a human's finest treasure ? What is hard for robbers to steal ? The blessed Buddha answered: Morality is good, even when one is old ! Confidence is good, when firmly established ! Understanding is any human's finest treasure ! Merit well done is impossible for robbers to steal ! Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I [39-40] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45403 From: "Lisa" Date: Wed May 11, 2005 10:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results foamflowers Hi everyone, smiles and hugs, throws some metta flowers around! Ph: Thanks. Yesterday I made a bitter and fairly (but not completely) foolish attack on Thanissaro Bhikkhu (not the last time, I'm sure) and indirectly on Lisa, who quoted him. (*Sorry Lisa - I think I overdid it, but I know you're cool about that sort of thing.) I listen to the DSG Bangkok talks on tape, and there is a certain consistency of view, which helps me to undertand better (be brainwashed better, my friend James would say) but then when I come to the internet there is nothing but disagreement, and I guess I get frustrated. But as Ken said, there can be a different dynamic in the face to face talks and internet. I will look at my sour grapes when they arise (and they will, often) and know them to the degree I am capable of as annica, dukkha and anatta. Metta, Phil Dear Phil, My gift to you, myself plus those around me is to give us space so we can see clearly reality as it is. I promise not to judge to harshly within my limited abilities or react to swiftly without some reflection. I have really been chewing on ritual, anatta and this attachment to self, not self, non-self and no self argument and the seemingly conflicting messages within the Suttas and the Abhidhamma when it comes to exactly how we are supposed to meditate or not meditate, be this way or that way in our daily lives, noble or just layperson, and on and on and on. Some thoughts.......We are so different in our conditioning and habitual way of reacting to aversion and cravings. The teachings are from how I see it, varied and sometimes conflicting because of this. To try and make the Suttas read from one point of view when they where given to those who suffered from many different points of view and conditions makes my head hurt (okay I'm tired and I can't find the right words to express this point I'm trying to make). I guess until we reached the end of views the Way will be filled with many points of view and many arguments and concerns. Why stress it? Are you sure there is one right way and many wrong ways or just many different points of view? There is no controlling how people take the sutra right or wrong and that is including the Abhidhamma, this is what I've heard on DSG and also from my own Dhamma teacher. Although Sunim said in a very serious tone, very softly and kindly, that once I made the vow to 'wake up' I had to stick to it and I took that advice to heart. How can you judge someone's spiritual worth just from personal opinion? Does anyone one know what someone else has gone through to be here right now to speak of Dhamma at this (M)moment? Who has actually walked in someone else's shoes, who is awake enough to know who they are before they judge another who may or may not know? I can judge an oncoming car and if I should or shouldn't cross the road but when it comes to another's spiritual worth…I am not a Buddha or Arahat. ( I have a quote that knocks this argument down, I'll post it later.) If we refuse to walk the path at all, or backslide on the path by refusing to keep the Precepts or meditate, spending all our time arguing about the characteristics of Nirvana, self, no-self, non-self, not-self, you can be sure, that we will never arrive at our destination at all! It's a wilderness out there, sentient beings! Be sure to pack your bags accordingly it is an adventure that no personality or individual can escape from..... We should keep in mind the words of the Buddha: O! Bhikkhus! When any monk is not earnest in his practice of meditation, even though he might have the wish in his mind, "Oh, that my mind should free itself from defilements as a result of non-attachment", he will be unable to free his mind from defilements as a result of non-attachment. Why is this? It is because he did not cultivate. Did not cultivate what? Because he did not cultivate the Four Foundations of Mindfulness [satipa.t.thaana]; the Four Accomplishments [sampadaana]; the Four Foundations of Success [iddhipaada]; the Five Faculties [indriya]; the Five Powers [bala]; the Seven Factors of Enlightenment [bojjha"nga], or; the Eightfold Path [ariyamagga]; (In the same way ) it is like a mother hen with eight eggs, ten eggs, twelve eggs to hatch, but the mother hen neglects to incubate the eggs by sitting on them, doesnít give them sufficient warmth, but makes the wish in her mind, "Oh, that my chicks should use the tip of their claws or their beak to pierce the eggshell, and hatch in safety", but in reality, those chicks are unable to use their claws or their beaks to pierce the eggshell to hatch in safety. Why is this? It is because she failed to incubate the eggs by sitting on them, didn't give them sufficient warmth, that they did not hatch. O! Bhikkhus! When a monk is earnest in his practice of meditation, even though he might not have the wish in his mind, "Oh, that my mind should free itself from defilements as a result of non-attachment", but he will be able to free his mind from defilements as a result of non-attachment. Why is this? It is because he cultivated. Cultivated what? Cultivated the Four Foundations of Mindfulness [satipa.t.thaana]; the Four Accomplishments [sampadaana]; the Four Foundations of Success [iddhipaada]; the Five Faculties [indriya]; the Five Powers [bala]; the Seven Factors of Enlightenment [bojjha"nga], or; the Eightfold Path [ariyamagga]; (In the same way ) it is like a mother hen with eight eggs, ten eggs, twelve eggs to hatch, which the mother hen incubates by sitting on them, giving them sufficient warmth, but doesnít make the wish in her mind, "Oh, that my chicks should use the tip of their claws or their beak to pierce the eggshell, and hatch in safety", but in spite of this, those chicks will be able to use their claws or their beaks to pierce the eggshell to hatch in safety. Why is this? It is because she incubated the eggs by sitting on them, and gave them sufficient warmth, that they hatched. A"nguttaranikaaya, Sattakanipaata, 23/96/126-127 Self, no-self, not-self, non-self, anatta and nirvana...whew...A huge can of worms, I had no idea that this was an ancient argument ...lol (I'm not mocking Dhamma Htoo) To be continued along with my ponderings on ritual...(I not avoiding talking about what I think is ritual, I just never really had rituals in my life, all I see when I look at ritual and other religions including Buddhism are people doing lovely actions to lovely things in their culture that is so different from my own culture. Thoughts, words, actions, they remind me of a spider web and I am the fly all tangled up in it. Than I see what is not so different beyond the thoughts, words, actions and –motion…it takes the confusion away like a rag wipes away dust on a mirror. Oh that reminds me a thought on motion....what if motion is like the pixels on a tv screen. Motion and depth on a tv screen is created by the changing of many small dots of color. Motion is an illusion on the screen our mind makes the changing of colors seem like motion. So the mind is like a TV screen many pixels and what seems to be motion is just a change of focus and attention...(just a guess) Time for bed...With Metta, Lisa 45404 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 0:14am Subject: The more excellent happiness corvus121 Dear DSG'ers Greetings to you all. I am doing some preparatory reading/research for the next Cooran Dhamma weekend at Vesak and, as usual, I need some help. I hope this isn't another "no brainer"! (-: Anyway, here goes and many thanks to any wise friends who can point me in the right direction. I am looking at the Sakkapanha Sutta, DN 21 verse 2.3 Walshe p. 329. The Buddha explains that there are 2 kinds of happiness - the kind to be avoided increases unwholesome factors and decreases wholesome factors; and the kind to be sought after increases wholesome factors and decreases unwholesome factors. The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not so accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? Any takers? With best wishes Andrew T 45405 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 0:47am Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness philofillet Hi Andrew > The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by > thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not so > accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." > > Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? I wonder if it has anything to do with prompted/unprompted? If I recall correctly, kusala or akusala citta that is unprompted has more potency. Metta, Phil 45407 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah, It seems to me that there is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist term PANNA. Panna has a far wider meaning than intelligence, intellectuality, understanding or knowledge. In its Buddhist meaning it is part of the eight fold path and the intuitive knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and realization of Nibbana (Buddhist Dictionary-Nyanatiloka) The conditions for its arising is the knowledge acquired by reading about the teaching, thinking about the teaching and practicing the Teaching. Therefore the "necessary instructions" given by the Buddha are not to be spoken of lightly, but they are to be realized through putting them into practice. ________________________________________________________________ Sara says: ………… I was taught in the beginning, under what you would describe as very good teachers. However, I realised it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concetrating on breath, eyes closed,slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments. Then it dawned on me that the teaching is about dhammas, about anatta and that these dhammas couldn't be controlled in anyway. Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. I'm just mentioning this because you seem to have the idea that if only some of us would go on a retreat, learn to meditate and so on, we'd come to our senses. In fact many of us (those you are concerned about) have been model meditators:-). ____________________________________________________________________ My reply to above: One who is interested in Buddhist Meditation, must be prepared to go through a certain amount of sacrifice, have confidence in a teacher, meditate without any expectations. The last because if the expectations are not realized one gets disillusioned, and gives up the practice and go in search of a method which is an easy way out. Disillusionment, is no reason to believe one has got "enlightened". You say, "I realized it was all motivated by an idea of self and so much lobha, doing bhavana, following instructions, living unnaturally, concentrating on breath, eyes closed, slow motion walking and so on -- all for the purpose of attaining specific results and attainments." Lord Buddha himself went through exactly what you say, rather disparagingly about bhavana. I think some of those "model meditators" you mention should read the life of the Buddha and read some Suttas seriously- for instance the Mahasacchaka Sutta, to understand what the Buddha went through in search of the truth about Dukkha. Perhaps, if the Buddha had met some of those "models" or their counter parts, at that time, the Buddha may have had his enlightenment watching "the reality of the present moment". _____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: Suddenly, I felt free. I didn't need to live in a forest temple in Sri Lanka, meditating all those hours in the day, cutting myself off from the world and so on. I could help my family, get a job, be sociable, read and study and have fun too. _____________________________________________________________________ My reply: If one's idea of Buddhism is living in comfort, having nice meals in a posh restaurant with one's family and friends, do a job, and drive a car, discuss Buddhism over a nice cup of tea etc., then that is the Abhidhammika way, but not according to what the Buddha taught. __________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: Samatha (tranquillity or calm) refers to pasaddhi cetasika which accompanies all wholesome cittas. (b) This is the development of samatha, but first there has to be a clear understanding of which moments are kusala and which are akusala, otherwise it cannot develop just by taking such an object. (c) For example, all the students in my yoga class focus very well on their breath. Are they all developing samatha? Does it help them to develop satipatthana? I don't think so. ________________________________________________________________ My reply: One should go for a meditation retreat, with what is called a "don't know mind" or what the Zen Master Shunryu Suzuki calls a "Beginner's Mind" If one knows every thing, there is then nothing more to learn….. The last question (c), shows a lack of a basic knowledge of Samatha. __________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: When you say that 'one has to prepare oneself for Samatha meditation',again it's different from how I understand samatha bhavana (meditation) to develop. In other words, I believe it is the kusala citta (and cetasikas) that are important, rather than the place or way of sitting. ________________________________________________________________ My reply: I repeat that you have not understood what is Samatha. There may be more to it than what you believe it to be. If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana ( and with out Bhavana, there is no Buddhism) _____________________________________________________________________ Sarah says: I appreciate your goodwill and also good humour over your name:-) it's really good to have you around and I mean that most sincerely. _____________________________________________________________________ My reply: I am happy to be in a forum, where I am able to put my point of view across without trespassing on any ones patience and politeness. Dear Sarah, I have left out the rest of your message to what I wrote to Christine as it would be more appropriate that I reply her in case she raises those points. Thank you Sarah, May you be happy, With metta, Hasituppada (now that my identity is known) 45408 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 1:45am Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness hasituppada Dear Dhamma Friend, I am not in the habit of "butting in" but just after reading your post, these thoughts came to me. Happiness , here I think is "piti" That is an emotion that arises in a meditative mind when the mind has attained a certain level of purity. This arises only when the mind is free of disturbing thoughts or reflections. Vitakka and vicara are still thought moments in the mind. In a mind that is absorbing Jhana, these thoughts arise and the silence is disturbed, but at the second Jhana the mind is free from vitakka and vicara, and there is "piti"-rupture,and "sukha"-the mind is absolutely silent and that is better than when "vitakka and vicara was present. At the third jhana the mind is gone even beyond "piti"-rupture to "sukha" , which is even better than the mind with "piti" and at the forth Jhana the mind goes beyond both "sukha" to upekkha which is even better than it was with "sukha". Even in Vipassana, where the mind is not stilled as in Samatha, "piti bojjhangha" arises before , tranquility and concentration. Vipassana mind is also more calm and reaches upekkha when it is gone beyond even "piti". Therefore, a meditative rupture cannot arise in a mind which is still disturbed by vitakka and vichara. There is still no "panna" to see through three lakkhana and attain nibbana. That is my modest contribution to your post. with metta, Hasituppada. ______________________________________________________________ > The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by > thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not so > accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." > > Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? > > Any takers? > > With best wishes > Andrew T 45409 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 1:55am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 191 - Enthusiasm/piiti (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] The Atthasåliní (75) mentions the following factors which are conducive to the arising of the enlightenment factor of píti: * "…recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, of síla, of generosity, of devas, of peace (nibbåna), avoidance of rough (i.e. ill-tempered persons), serving meek persons, reflection on a Suttanta which instills confidence and a tendency to all this." * When we read a sutta, ponder over it and test the meaning by being mindful of the realities the Buddha taught time and again, we can prove the truth of his teachings. Thus our confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha can grow and we will be inspired to continue to develop the eightfold Path. There can be conditions for the arising of enthusiasm which invigorates citta and the accompanying cetasikas. Also píti can be object of mindfulness so that paññå can see it as it is, as not self. We should remember that without the development of satipaììhåna the enlightenment factor of píti and also the other enlightenment factors cannot develop. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45410 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Hasituppada, Tep, James, Htoo, Howard, Larry & all, --- hasituppada wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > It seems to me that there is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist > term PANNA. <..> S: There are several messages I look f/w to replying to, but it won't be today now - workmen here and also, Kel & All, working on next Musing on prior stages of insight...:-/ many thanks to any addressed to me in the meantime. yes, Hasituppada, I hope Chris and others reply too. LK, if you're still reading, I haven't forgotten our luminous chats...will get round to it eventually. Back to the workmen... Metta, Sarah ========= 45411 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:06am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo, >Htoo: >What I posted was from 'genuine sutta'. Even these 'words' are attacked. I think this is because of 'already holding light'. What I have been doing is searching for things as they are while the light arises from the searcher own eyes. >Would you say 'The Buddha is wrong to preach to his disciples as - gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'? Sukinder: To discuss the meaning of statements given by the Buddha, I need not only to be well read with regard to the Sutta and commentaries, but also have to have some proficiency in pali. In both areas, I am extremely poor. Using only reasoning based on my general understanding isn't good enough. Of course, anything the Buddha stated is in accordance with the Truth and cannot have double meaning. This makes it an even more daunting task requiring great responsibility, and I'm not known to be very discreet. But I will express some general views with the idea that it is the best so far, and that all other interpretations put forward by others are not consistent with what I understand the Teachings to be. The Mahasatipatthana Sutta may be said on one level to be an `instruction' given by the Buddha. However I think this is more in the form of "reminder" than something to "do". After all we are dealing with conditioned cittas and cetasikas and not conventional reality. As you know, sati does not arise just by observing posture and bodily movement. It can be sati and panna or it can be lobha-mula- citta with wrong view which does the observation. Don't you think that it is likely that `ditthi' would arise when we purposefully observe the posture and movement? When on the other, these conventional realities happen to be the object of consciousness without any view that *this is the right practice*, then indeed by upanissaya paccaya they can condition satipatthana. I think being worldlings, when we hear of this instruction of the Buddha, we more likely approach it the wrong way. My understanding is that the Sutta was given to those disciples who already had very developed sati. For them the sati arose so readily that at every bodily activity, satipatthana could alternate with cittas having posture as object. So it is by pakattupanissaya paccaya that the latter would condition the former. The Buddha's instruction worked for them "directly", i.e. it conditioned patipatti and even pativedha. For us, we need to have correct pariyatti, this being the best that will most likely be conditioned to arise by pakattupanissaya paccaya on hearing these same instructions. But because of wrong understanding, instead it ends up conditioning wrong practice for some of us. We think that it is `deliberate looking' which will condition satipatthana, not knowing about the different conditions, particularly pakattupanissaya paccaya. In fact I think, sign of progress along the path is determined by the different states of mind while engaging in varying activities and situations serving as pakattupanissaya paccaya for sati of whatever level to arise. From this point of view too, deliberate practice seem to lead to a different direction that the right one. This is why when I first heard K. Sujin state that the Teachings are to be seen as `descriptive' instead of `prescriptive', it made sense to me. I think this difference in view point is decisive in whether indeed there will be further development of Right View. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sukin, Sorry Sarah, I do not snip this post as to make the audience reading again. I agree with Sukin. That is why I do not reply in my usual manner. Sukin, I can see your sincerity and your power of clear communication. There are people who are stick to 'Suttas' and they would deny Abhidhamma as the genuine teachings of The Buddha. But when these sutta-lovers are talked what I notice is they do not have proficiency in Pali and so Dhamma. So they are frequently making mistakes by wrong interpretation on suttas. When even a single sutta cannot be well understood how can they manage the whole lot of all suttas? I like your words and K Sujin's words. Descriptive, prescriptive things. Actually 'satipatthana' was preached many many times in many places and by many arahats including Sariputta, Moggalana and others. I said satipatthana and I do not say 'satipatthana sutta'. I will re-mention again 'gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati'. This sentence is just a part of the whole sutta. As you said we will have to learn other aspects of Dhamma in other suttas. Even in this sutta there is a word 'Idha'. The Buddha already included 'Idha'. But when Pali is not understood, how will one be able to understand the sutta. Some even admitted that they did not have Pali proficiency. 'When going, he detailed-knows he goes'. As you said this is nothing. But this is conventional things and we do not need to see just superficial. As you said, this is descriptive and not prescriptive. So it is WRONG to perceive as 'We must know when we go as we are going'. The meaning in the whole sentence is that 'there are many ruupas, they arise, persist, fall away and there are naama, they arise, persist, and fall away. This is not only in us but also in others. There are causes and when these causes are not there they will vanish and so the practitoner clearly see these with good mindfulness diligently and he is not on any of wrong ideas and he at the time of seeing naama and ruupa is said to be liberated' With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. 45412 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:11am Subject: Looking for suttas about Anatta christine_fo... Hello all, Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. metta, Chris 45413 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:32am Subject: Kamma through mind door (Re: Dhamma Thread (357) htootintnaing Dear Phil, Thanks for your reply. I think there have been many posts on the matter of mano-kamma. Useful posts are good for review. I will reply your questions below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Hello Htoo Thanks as always for this series. Your perseverence encourages me to persevere with my Dhamma study. I have a question that I'm sure occurs to many beginners. > > Abhijjhaa is a kamma that are mental activities wishing to possess > > properties or things that are owned by others beings. The base > > dhammathat underlie this abhijjhaa kamma is lobha cetasika. > >Byaapaada ( spell as Vyapada in PTS ) is a kamma that are mental > >activities wishing destruction of others' properties, fames, good > >reputation etc etc. The base dhamma that underlie this byaapaada > >kamma is dosa cetasika or aversion. Phil: Are kamma done through the mental door always less potent or harmful than kamma done through the body door? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To have a clear picture I will reveal three kammic actions with illustrations. a) Kaaya kamma = Bodily actions + mental actions b) Vaci kamma = Verbal actions + mental actions c) Mano kamma = Silent + mental actions So I hope you clearly see what is what. Speech is vaci-vinatti ruupa. The cause is 'cittas' and mental actions. Gesture is kaaya-vinatti ruupa. The cause is 'cittas' and mental actions. I mean these bodily actions and verbal actions are cittaja ruupas and they arise because of mental actions. When we just practise siila, we refrain from wrong doing, wrong verabal actions. But there may be thoughts without physical and verbal involvement or silent akusala. Whether there are silent or not akusala always has a mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst. As both kaaya kamma and vaci kamma have mano-kamma they are not less potent than mano-kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Is thinking of killing a human, for example, less potent than actually killing an insect? I think Rob M taught me on this point, and said that it is case by case, depending on the intensity of the intention, but I can't recall for sure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As rob M taught you, there are case by case variations. But there is no variations among dhamma of cetana cetasika, which is sankharakkhandha. If it is killing, that is killing and there will be kamma. Thinking killing a human is byaapaada. It is kamma. It does have kammic effect. Killing an insect is also akusala kamma. But the result will be depend on cetana, effort or viriya when it is committed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Also, is a kamma that is unprompted (ie an unwholesome thought that just arises on its own) more potent and harmful than a prompted thought (for example, we think of killing after watching a violent movie?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sasankharika and asankharika or promptedness and unpromptedness have different implications. In case of kusala there is reduction of kusala kamma effect if there is sasankharika. This may lead to dvihetuka kusala kamma. In case of akusala, asankharika or unpromptedness is worse than sasankharika or promptedness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: And if there is wrong view -"it doesn't matter if I do this - there is no result from kamma - I can get away with it" - does that make the kamma more potent? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even in case of killing, if there is no wrong view, it is not worse than with wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: I guess we don't know, that the Buddha taught that trying to fingure out the precise working of kamma would drive us to distraction. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. I would not figure out. These discussion on kamma are just description and what is important is that the main or the chief is 'mind' and when we tame our mind then bad kamma will not be committed. And this is the beauty of teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: In any case, I appreciate this reminder to be aware of akusala kamma through the mental door. I am slack in that department. Thanks in advance for your feedback. Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When there is no bad mental actions, it is lighter to live than with full of mental bad actions like 'thinking on others' destruction and thinking on possession of others' properties. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45414 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (358) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 kama kusala kamma as there are 3 kama akusala kamma. These kusala kamma are classified as 3 depending on kamma-dvaara or door of kamma or actions. They are 1. kaaya-kusala-kamma 2. vaci-kusala-kamma 3. mano-kusala-kamma Depending on 'arising of citta' or 'cittuppaada' there are 8 kama kusala kamma. These 8 kamma are also known as 8 mahaa-kusala kamma. There are other kusala kamma like rupa-kusala and arupa-kusala kamma. to differentiate these 2 kamma, kamavacara kusala kamma are called mahaa-kusala kamma. As they are cittas or cittuppaada, they can be read in citta portion of Dhamma Thread. But for the benefit of readers, the summary will be given in this post. These 8 maha-kusala kamma or 8 maha-kusala cittas are 1. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta 2. somanassa saha gatam nana sampayutta sasankharika citta 3. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayutta asankharika citta 4. somanassa saha gatam nana vippayutta sasankharika citta 5. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayutta asankharika citta 6. upekkha saha gatam nana sampayutta sasankharika citta 7. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta asankharika citta 8. upekkha saha gatam nana vippayutta sasankharika citta Somanassa is joy or happiness. Saha gatam means 'to associate with'. Nana means 'wisdom'. Sampayutta means 'mixed with'. Asankharika means 'unprompted'. Sasankharika means 'prompted'. Vippayutta means 'dissociated' and upekkha here means 'indifferent feeling'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45415 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (400), Metta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 4 general citations are 1. sabbe sattaa averaa hontu 2. sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu 3. sabbe sattaa aniighaa hontu 4. sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu Sabbe means 'all' 'each and every'. Satta means 'sentient being'. Vera means 'enemy' and avera means 'free from enemies'. Hontu means 'be that'. So sabbe satta avera hontu means 'may all beings be free from enemies'. 1. May all beings be free from enemies (inside & outside) Byapajjati means 'trouble'. Abyapajja means 'untroubled'. So 2. Sabbe satta abyapajjaa hontu means 'May all beings be untroubled'. Anigha means 'niddukkha'. Niddukkha means 'free of sufferings, pains'. So 3. Sabbe satta anighaa hontu means 'May all beings be free from sufferings'. Sukha means 'pleasure'. Sukhi-atta means 'physical pleasure'. So 4. Sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu means 'May all beings be healthy and wealthy'. 5 general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe sattaa or 'all beings' 2. sabbe paanaa or 'all creatures' 3. sabbe bhuutaa or 'all grown beings' 4. sabbe puggalaa or 'all individuals' 5. sabbe attabhaava-pariyapannaa or 'all life-inclusive beings' 7 less general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe ariyaa or 'all arahats' 2. sabbe anariyaa or 'all non-arahats' 3. sabbe purisaa or 'all male beings' 4. sabba itthiyo or 'all female beings' 5. sabbe manussaa or 'all human beings' 6. sabbe devaa or 'all devas that is deva-devas and brahma-devas' 7. sabbe vinipatika asuraa or all non-human beings There are 12 objects as general. They are 'the idea or pannatti of mentioned 5 and 7, altogether 12 ideas or 12 pannatti. And there are 4 alternative wishing or citations. So there will be 48 general wishing or citation or mental exertion on these 48 things. After general mental exertion, one who is practising metta may does so to the 10 directions of east, south-east, south, south-west, west, north-west, north, north-east, up and down. When doing mental exertion to up and down, these have to include all beings that are above hios or her level even though the beings above may be in 8 directions. In this way, all directions are included and all beings in X-axis, Y- axis, Z-axis of both right and left or up and down or faced and backed. So there will be 528 mental exertion of metta. Again initially one has to cite or mentally cultivate that he or she starts with 4 citations to himself or herself. 1. Aham avero homi. 2. Aham abyapajjo homi. 3. Aham anigho homi. 4. Aham sukhi-attaanam pariharaami. 1. May I be free from enemies. 2. May I be untroubled. 3. May I be free from sufferings. 4. May I be healthy and wealthy both physically and mentally. 1 is equal to 1. 2 is equal to 2. When we put 1 pound in one side of a scale and another 1 pound to other side of the scale, the scale's indicator will show equal. As soon as one side is heavier than the other the indicator will indicate that heavier side is heavier. Metta has to be equal to all if it is to be universal. That is what universal friendliness means. There must not be any boundries. There are 4 different beings that we may put a boundry. 1. being who is our self 2. beings who are deared by our self 3. beings who are hated by our self 4. beings who are not deared or hated by our self If it is true metta, then there must not be any boundry between these 4 beings. If this happen then this metta is unlimited metta and it is appamanna metta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45416 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:49am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (400), Metta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 different beings among whom we may put a boundry. 1. being who is our self 2. beings who are deared by our self 3. beings who are hated by our self 4. beings who are not deared or hated by our self If it is true metta, then there must not be any boundry between these 4 beings. If this happens then 'this metta' is unlimited metta and it is appamanna metta. When 4 citation or 4 wishes are exerted to 5 general objects and 7 less general objects there will be 48 general wishes (4.12(5+&) = 48 ) There are 10 directions or disa.s. They are east, south-east, south, south-west, west, north-west, north, north-east, up and down. There are many endless and infinite beings in those directions. So as there are 10 directions, there will be 480 wishes. Along with general 48 wishes, there will be altogether 480 + 48 = 528 wishes to all beings. These 528 wishes go from the centre. The centre is our self. So we have to start with 'wishes' to our self first. Again the weightage to our self and to others must be equal and have the same weightage. Otherwise there will have been some boundry. When go in 10 directions, there include enemies, deared ones, and non- deared-non-hated ones. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45417 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread (359) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 3 kama kusala kamma as there are 3 kama akusala kamma. These kusala kamma are classified as 3 depending on kamma-dvaara or door of kamma or actions. They are 1. kaaya-kusala-kamma 2. vaci-kusala-kamma 3. mano-kusala-kamma Depending on 'arising of citta' or 'cittuppaada' there are 8 kama kusala kamma. These 8 kamma are also known as 8 mahaa-kusala kamma. These cittas have been explained repeatedly. There are still 3 kinds of kusala depending on what is being done. They are 1. daana maya 2. siila maya 3. bhavanaa maya This classification depends on 'punna-kiriya-vatthu'. Punna means 'wholesome action'. Kiriya means 'performance'. Vatthu means 'ground' 'base''dependee'. So 3 kinds of kamma depend on these 3 kinds of wholesome-grounds. They are 1. daana or offering 2. siila or building up moral conduct by abstaining doing bad things 3. bhavanaa or building up or developing good mind. All these 3 kamma are basically done by 8 mahakusala cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45418 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:00am Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness matheesha333 Hi, Funnily I was just reading this sutta a few days back! Yes, I would agree with Hasituppada on this. It is about the buddha proclaiming that the second jhana is more exalted and better than the first and so on. This goes all the way upto the 8th jhaana where unbinding is said to be more exalted than that. It is simply degrees of agitation and disturbance dropping away. One of the core motivations for the whole buddhist path can be understood at depth through experiencing jhaana in this manner. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friend, > > I am not in the habit of "butting in" but just after reading your > post, these thoughts came to me. Happiness , here I think is "piti" > That is an emotion that arises in a meditative mind when the mind > has attained a certain level of purity. > > This arises only when the mind is free of disturbing thoughts or > reflections. Vitakka and vicara are still thought moments in the > mind. In a mind that is absorbing Jhana, these thoughts arise and > the silence is disturbed, but at the second Jhana the mind is free > from vitakka and vicara, and there is "piti"-rupture,and "sukha"- the > mind is absolutely silent and that is better than when "vitakka and > vicara was present. At the third jhana the mind is gone even > beyond "piti"-rupture to "sukha" , which is even better than the > mind with "piti" and at the forth Jhana the mind goes beyond > both "sukha" to upekkha which is even better than it was > with "sukha". > > Even in Vipassana, where the mind is not stilled as in > Samatha, "piti bojjhangha" arises before , tranquility and > concentration. Vipassana mind is also more calm and reaches upekkha > when it is gone beyond even "piti". > > Therefore, a meditative rupture cannot arise in a mind which is > still disturbed by vitakka and vichara. > > There is still no "panna" to see through three lakkhana and attain > nibbana. > > That is my modest contribution to your post. > > with metta, > Hasituppada. > > ______________________________________________________________ > > The Buddha goes on: "Now, of such happiness as is accompanied by > > thinking and pondering [vitakka-vicara], and of that which is not > so > > accompanied, the latter is the more excellent." > > > > Why so? I ask. Is there more panna arising with the latter? > > > > Any takers? > > > > With best wishes > > Andrew T 45419 From: "hasituppada" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta hasituppada Dear Christine, You are probably referring to Parivatta Sutta SNXXII.56 with metta, Hasituppada 45420 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta matheesha333 Hi Chris, Plenty to keep you busy here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/khandha.html note that the the feeling of the 'knower' is simply another collection of the 5 aggregates and not necessarily real as this feeling flickers on and off and can be even wilfully gotten rid of! Its only part of our delusional nature. Also see http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/1Digha-Nikaya/Digha2/15- mahanidana-e2.htm ..might go some ways in thinking of an infinite 'greater self'. Ultimately all thoughts of 'self' are just labels for collections of stuff. A Car is a concept used to think of a collection of wheels, engine,gearbox, body, seats etc. A Car is only a metal concept. No solitary/united thing exists in nature called a car. We cant extract a car 'essence' once all its component parts are destroyed. But all this is theoretical understanding. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) > I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the > aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the > sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an > omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. > > metta, > Chris 45421 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:25am Subject: The No-soul Principle is a Universal Truth! htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Here is dialogue between Tep and Htoo. This is a dialogue that appear at a universal group called 'Universalanswer' Yahoo Group. It is not confined to Buddhism only but a universal one. We avoided Pali word and Buddhism things so that all people with all backgrounds can enjoy there. Tep said: Hello Htoo and everyone - What is soul? According to my MacMillan Dictionary, there are 9 meanings! 1) Spiritual part of human beings as distinguished from the physical. 2) Moral or spiritual part of human beings considered in relation to God, believed to be immortal and to separate from the body at death. 3) Spirit of a dead person, thought of as having an existence of its own. 4) Emotional part of human nature, as distinguished from the intellect. 5) Spiritual or emotional warmth, force, or energy. 6) Essential, fundamental, or animating part; vital element. 7) One who leads or inspires. 8) One who is considered to embody a certain quality; personification. 9) Person. Only Buddhists believe that there is no soul ( the meanings #1- #3) in a living or a dead body, before this life, now, or after. Such a belief is a universal truth, although it is not the common belief of all religions. My comment: the Buddhists' No-soul principle does not deny existence of beings, but rather to reject the personality views and other extreme viewpoints related to soul. Question: What did the Buddha say precisely about his No-soul principle, and what was/were his reason(s) to say so? Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, The Buddha taught to His first 5 disciples like this. 'Physical phenomena are non-soul's?' 'If they are soul's, they may have been what the soul wants them to be.' 'Is that right or wrong disciples?' ''It is right that physical phenomena are all non-soul's teachers.'' 'Disciples, feelings are non-soul's' 'If feelings are soul's, they they may have been what the soul wants them to be. That is this good feeling arises here and that bad feeling do not arise there and the soul may have the power of control. But it is not the case. So feelings are non-soul's'. 'Is that right or wrong, disciples?' ''It is right that feelings are non-soul's as you said teacher.'' 'Perceptions are non-soul's, disciples' ---- 'Formations are non-soul's, disciples' ---- 'Consciousness are non-soul's disciples' ---- These are the principles of No-soul. The reason to say so is that 1. physical phenomena can be what the soul wants if there is a soul. If it can be, then there will not ever be any bad things like tsunami in this world and beyond. But in this world there are full of undesirable physical phenomena. Let the world alone, we even are not able to what we want to be. Example is when we need time our body cannot work beyond limita and it has to have a rest as sleep. 2. feelings can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But feelings cannot be what we want. If there is a soul and it wants feelings of what he wants then there will not be any bad feelings, pains, diseases. But the world is full of such thing. 3. perceptions can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But perceptions do not follow what one wants them to be. If there is a soul and he wants perceptions not arise then we should not have any bad perceptions like sound of explosion, perceptions of bad rotten dead body smells of tsunami. But as we can see, there were people who were working with face-masks at tsunami site. 4. formations or mental movements can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But this is not the case. Because there are formations that are what we do not want them to be. If they can be what we want, then formations like 'tranquility-concentration' should arise in a short time. But there is straying thoughts at least initially. 5. consciousness can be what the soul wants them to be if there is a soul. But this is not the case and consciousness cannot be stopped by us. Examples there are light and forms and shapes in front of us as a physical phenomena while consciousness arise continuously. If consciousness can be what we want them to be then we will be able to develop 'path-consciousness' and we will be liberated from suffering right now. But we are still here are reading e-mails daily. As soon as one has a doubt that there is a continuous and ever-living soul then he or she is holding wrong view. Because there is no permanent soul at all. With friendship, Htoo PS: The Buddha here just referred to a person of a time. The group is universal. Anyone, any background, any view holders are all allowed and air their view there. 45422 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 8:35am Subject: Dhamma Thread (360) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, We are performing actions in a daily basis. These actions include bodily actions, verbal actions and mental actions. As long as we are not arahats, these actions are bad actions or good actions. As long as actions are good or bad, they bear the potentials to give rise to their fruit or results. This potential is brought forward down to next and next successively arising citta and this is right till the last arising cuti citta or dying consciousness of arahats. It is quite evident that no one wants to experience bad things. If they do not want these bad experiences, they will have to avoid doing bad actions. These bad actions have been discussed to some detail in the previous posts. Currently, Dhamma Thread posts are discussing kusala dhamma, kusala cittas, and kusala matters. Again there are 10 bases for wholesome actions or 10 grounds for wholesome actions or 10 homes for kusala actions. Because of these 10 homes or punna-kiriya-vatthu, there are 10 kusala dhamma. They are 1. daana or offering 2. siila or moral conduct 3. bhaavanaa or mental cultivation 4. apacaayana or giving respect to senior of any kind 5. veyyaavacca or performing good supporting assistance 6. pattidaana or sharing merit 7. pattaanumodana or delighting others' merit 8. dhammassavana or listening to dhamma preaching 9. dhammadesanaa or preaching dhamma 10.ditthijukamma or being straightness in view or taking right view. Still there are many kusala dhamma. But when they all are investigated there are only 8 mahakusala cittas that base these kama kusala actions. There are 12 akusala cittas and 8 mahakusala cittas. They form altogether 20 cittas and they give rise to their effects in the form of kamavacara vipaka cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45423 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 12, 2005 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Looking for suttas about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris (and Hasituppada) - In a message dated 5/12/05 7:13:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Hello all, Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. metta, Chris ==================== I also don't know the reference, but I do recall reading a sutta the content of which is that there is no self to be found in any of the khandhas or in any combination of them *or outside of them*! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45424 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, Hi Sarah, Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > I am writing this message to inform you all that I don't think this > > being a regular member of this discussion group is 'me.' At least for > > the present, I will not be checking here as the threads I start do not > > yield the good results I was expecting when I began them. > .... > S: Could you elaborate just a little on what 'the good results' you were > expecting were? What kind of results have resulted? Well, just feeling I can competantly post to a group with legitimate questions and attempts to gain understanding and that gave me a more 'into life' feeling both at and away from the computer for some time. > Definitely we'll be students of the Dhamma for our whole lives and we can > never know everything, but we jsut try to understand what we can for now > and when we know more, we can say more. > > The main thing, I think, is to learn to see all dhammas as anatta, > otherwise we just have headaches and problems all the time, trying to > select and control dhammas or trying to know a lot of detail but without > any real understanding. Eh, but see I've seen so much results from sitting meditation throughout the past few years that I can't think just trying to see the three characteristics in dhammas is what it's all about. Perhaps it is a large part of it because I think of times I have been able to see the impermanence of all things when I was doing very well with formal vipassana meditation, and their true nature, expanding, changing, does appear to me when I practise like this or do walking meditation. I just think there is a fundamental discord between the approaches we are taking. I mean, I want to practise the Noble Eightfold Path. Or at least the four foundations of mindfulness. These are cultivated quite intentionally, and I see this as a fundamental conflict with most of the views espoused here; in fact, it's not the only one. This is why after an initial post that I get 'good results' from, I usually trail off with the thread.. it's not going in the direction of helping me in my practise, with some exceptions, like working towards understanding ultimate realities. I have to try to get back in touch with my practise, it seems participating heavily here hampers that. > S: If you'd rather start new threads or abandon them all together, it's > fine. Whatever you feel is most useful, Al. No, please don't abandon us!! > > Your last set of posts contained excellent questions and astute > observations -- we can all benefit from them. At least I can. No need to > think too much about whether DSG is your 'home away from home' or whether > the list is 'you'! Just take one day at a time and if you feel like > responding to any posts or threads or feel like initiating any, as you've > done here, just know we'll be glad to hear from you. > > I believe that you really reflect very deeply on the Teachings in a way > that is most unusual, especially for someone young. Your faith and > understanding of the dhammas as dhammas is very precious. So please chip > in from time to time when you can. It's most inspiring. > Metta, > > Sarah Sarah, I have to go. I do think that there is some good discussion here that can help me understand some basic concepts in Buddhism, but I haven't been able to let it work with my daily life or practise. One last thing. I think you give me far too much credit for my reflection and 'understanding.' And this is where I stray with threads. Perhaps some better effort is called for. At the very least, I will lurk in this group rather than starting threads I would abandon and so on. Sorry for the late reply, as always. peace, AL 45425 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sati and no sati, Intellectual Understanding, no 2 jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: >Tep: That is an excellent point, Jon. I have an idea to propose to you: >the 4-tetrad Anapanasati can bring the full benefits to those who >already have the right view (samma-ditthi). I have no doubt (although I >have no proof) that the monks who listened to the Anapanasati >Discourse that day all had the right view. If you have time please visit >the link below to find out why I think so. >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SariputtaDhamma/message/784 > > Thanks for the comments, and I have read your post at the link. Let me clarify that I was not questioning the fact that the Anapanasati Sutta describes how enlightenment can be attained with jhana as basis -- I accept that it does. I was trying to highlight the fact that the sutta is addressed to monks who were already well developed in both samatha (with breath as object) and vipassana. In other words, it is a teaching for the late stages of the long journey to attaining enlightenment. It is not a recommendation to all and sundry that the path to enlightenment begins with undertaking anapanasati. >Tep: In DN 22 it states that in order to enter the first jhana the meditator >must be "withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) >qualities". All other suttas with emphasis on concentration also say the >same about the 1st jhana. It follows that all the jhana states after that >also must be supported by kusala too. Don't you think so? > > Yes, all jhana states are kusala. Thus, the attainment of the first jhana is a matter of the development of kusala, and not just a matter of the development of concentration. >Tep: That observation is very good --'samadhi' sometimes refers to >the concentration that accompanies samatha, and sometimes to the >concentration that accompanies insight. My opinion on the 4th jhana is >that it was defined in 99% of the suttas with samma-ditthi and the other >Path factors in mind. > Jhanas are kusala states, and all kusala supports insight development; but jhanas are not insight. Higher states of concentration do not mean one is closer to a moment of insight, any more than higher sila would mean one was closer to a moment of samatha. Each kind of kusala is developed by its arising based on previous accumulations of the same, and other supporting conditions. In the case of insight, the main supporting conditions are hearing and reflecting on the teachings and relating what one is reflecting on to the present moment. This does not require a special place or time to occur. >In MN 117 the term "noble right concentration" was >used to mean exactly that <"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And >how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve >comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into >being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right >livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, >right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In >one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, >right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight >factors, and the arahant with ten".> > > Yes, "noble right concentration" is the concentration that accompanies the moment of enlightenment as described in this passage or, at a mundane level, a moment of development of the path (insight). >It is always nice talking with you, Jon. > > You too, Tep. Apologies as always for the delay. in responding. Jon 45426 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] philofillet Hi Tep, James and all > T: In the last paragraph of your post the word "random" was mentioned > twice; the second time I read the word a sanna arose in me. It turned on > the "memory switch" of mine and I recalled a sutta Ph: I know you've heard this before, but sanna accompanies every citta - it marks the object so it can be recognized by cittas that follow either soon or later. It is very functional and we tend to over-emphasize it. So maybe sanna is not the best word to describe the "rings a bell" feeling. Then again, just as I have learned that panna can describe everything from deep penetration of realities to right intellectual understanding, there may be many correct ways to understand what is meant by "sanna." Maybe the recalling of a sutta has more to do with conditions. The previous time you read the sutta, there was a moment of conditioning through one of the 24 conditioned relations - the object (the sutta) was highly esteemed by your understanding, and this conditioned a re- arising of it through object predominance condition or something like that. Just thinking out loud. You may be right to say it is sanna. I won't be able to help you there. > how small the chance of an uninstructed (ignorant) wordling to come > back to the world again after he died. The Buddha compared the > chance of returning to the world to the chance that a deep-sea turtle > would rise up to the water surface exactly at the same spot it did the last > time! This is a simile of randomness to me. One may say that the > chance to win a casino game is a lot higher than the chance that an > ignorant person may have another return to the world! Ph: If I recall, this sutta was to emphasize the rarity of the opportunity to study Dhamma, which requires at least a human reborth, right? It's a good reminder. Sometimes I feel guilty about studying Dhamma when I think I should be doing other things related to worldly "success." This sutta reminds us to be very grateful for this human life and the rare opportunity it gives us to develop understanding etc. > T: I want James to read your sweet-and-kind diplomatic statements, > Phil. Ph: As we know, he did. James is very sweet too. You can feel his sweetness under his occasionally obnoxious comments. James , you make my saccarine-sated heart ache with friendly feelings! Come and let me give you a big hug! No, I am coming to Egypt to give you a grrreat big bear hug! haha and maybe James just gives voice to our own secret feelings. I mean, who *hasn't* thought (to quote a recent Jamesism) "there's something about Jon that gives me the creeps!"? haha >This is the only way to win hearts of the people, I think. It is so very > true that every good discussion is a two-way communication. Ph: Interesting to note though, that as James suggested (I think - it's easier to reflect on the points he makes when he's not in bratty mode!) making conciliatory comments can be conditioned by akusala as well as kusala. There can be laziness about not wanting to continue a debate (this is often the case for me) lobha about having pleasant feeling of harmony rather than dispute and so on. Or there can be kusala behind it, metta that arises suddenly, or right understanding re the content of the debate or so on. It depends, moment by moment. After I posted that previous conciliatory-toned note, I thought that it wasn't techinically right to tell you that it is "clear" that your efforts to convince people about intentional practice are wholesome. We don't know the other's citta, but we can be sure that it is not always or even usually wholesome. So even though there are wholesome moemnts when we post there is also surely a lot of clinging to self in it - obviously. Not that I'm taking back what I said about your posts being wholesome. When I wrote that, there was metta, and metta is non-discriminating. It is generous about the other person, and the other person's citta-stream as well, I guess. > O.K. Phil, I'll have an open mind towards your "drop-by-drop" approach > too. Thank you for the suggestion. Ph: I'll continue reading your posts with interest as well, when I have time. Metta, Phil p.s James, I will ramble on in the "Letter to James" thread on Saturday, as usual. It's becoming a Saturday night treat for me. 45427 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 5:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Lisa, and all > My gift to you, myself plus those around me is to give us space so we > can see clearly reality as it is. Yes, space is so, so important. There is an expression in Japanese "yo-o-yu ga nai" which I can never tranlsate properly, but it's like not having space. People can't find it in themselves to be open to other people and care about them because they are so caught up in their own story, in their own suffering. This is why I love Abhidhamma. Even intellectual understanding, even hearing reminders from Dhamma friends that there is ultimately nothing but nama and rupa (ie the khandas) helps to give me this "yo-o-yu" this capacity, this freedom. I let go of stories, let go of irritations so much more easier than before I came across Abhidhamma. And this has been going on consistently for over a year, so it is more than a brief spurt of right understanding arising because of some past condition, I think. It is because of having come across Abhidhamma. (Though of course "I" might have first come across it in a past lifetime.) >I promise not to judge to harshly > within my limited abilities or react to swiftly without some > reflection. Can this be promised? You have judged harshly in the past, so you will again, due to conditions. That goes for all of us. But we can become more aware of the judging when it arises (as it will) and ever so gradually begin to eradicate it. But if you make promises to yourself about this sort of thing, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment, maybe? And the promise itself could be with wrong understanding, because it implies a self that can have citta the way it wants it, contrary to the anatta sutta. (SN 22.59 "It is not possible to have it of form (and other khandas): 'Let my form be thus; let my form not be thus.") I have really been chewing on ritual, anatta and this > attachment to self, not self, non-self and no self argument and the > seemingly conflicting messages within the Suttas and the Abhidhamma > when it comes to exactly how we are supposed to meditate or not > meditate, be this way or that way in our daily lives, noble or just > layperson, and on and on and on. Me too. Well, not chewing maybe. I pop things in my mouth, so tp speak, and let them drop out again if I don't get it. Mentally chewing things could be more self at work, trying too ahrd to "get it." In the meantime, I don't meditate because it feels forced and unnatural when I do, and in the meantime you meditate because it feels helpful to you. We can only know by examining our experience. (Of course, if I don't meditate because it feels a bit silly in my circumstances, how will I come to know otherwise? It could be reflecting on a sutta or a post by someone here that makes something click for me, or the conditioned appearance in my life of a meditation teacher, or something like that - all beyond my control. I'll have to stop there, Lisa. Gotta run. Metta, Phil 45428 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:10pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta buddhistmedi... Hello Chris - Have you looked at Accesstoinsight yet? May be the link below is useful to locate a bundle of suttas for your purpose? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello all, > > Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) > I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the > aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the > sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an > omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. > > metta, > Chris 45429 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:13pm Subject: Might I also add lone_renunciant Yes, hello. To Sarah especially and anyone else who has any opinion on the matter: I think you overestimate my ability and committment with and to the Dhamma. I do not study and reflect well. I study when possible, which is not often, much less times I study well. And I do not reflect at all. I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. So I like to keep it simple, as I bought a small volume by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. Certainly, a balanced perspective on this would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying because I think it will lead to bad things. I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to jibe with the people in this group. My whole world has revolved around sitting meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have acheived with it. It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of high acheivement, as I and even some popular artists in the media I know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. Not being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). I've had results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post because it was profound compared to every day experience, or recognizing a phenomenon here or there. I certainly think taking a studious approach to Abhidhamma can be good, but it seems it will be exceedingly difficult to study and try to formulate different conceptual understandings of how reality works, much less apply them to real, or daily life. Much less trying to keep the necessary balance between the two (study, practise, daily life [, realization]). As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate or get something consistent going. Add in that I am not dead serious about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right there. Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that play on me to stay going in a bad way, but even with my illness I want to try to put together some kind of understanding or plan of how I can follow the teachings to their end. I continue to see things here that seem useful, but that I only vaguely recall when applicable. I guess I do not 'harvest' understanding well, having an interest in the Dhamma is a far cry from mastering it. I guess I'll leave it at this for now, hope this clarifies my position on things to anyone in question. If anyone has any advice it'll surely be welcome and I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) Thanks, Andrew L. 45430 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 6:41pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhistmedi... Hi Phil (James and others) - You wrote one of the most entertaining DSG posts I have ever read! I hope James might find it entertaining too. Like Htoo always says, a few laughs now and then is a good medicine. Phil: ...sanna accompanies every citta - it marks the object so it can be recognized by cittas that follow either soon or later. It is very functional and we tend to over-emphasize it. So maybe sanna is not the best word to describe the "rings a bell" feeling. ... panna can describe everything from deep penetration of realities to right intellectual understanding, there may be many correct ways to understand what is meant by "sanna." Tep: This is an occasion that my 20+ years of sutta study does not provide a clear idea to explain that "ring a bell" phenomenon. I need a citta expert to help me for sure. Phil. : Maybe the recalling of a sutta has more to do with conditions. The previous time you read the sutta, there was a moment of conditioning through one of the 24 conditioned relations - the object (the sutta) was highly esteemed by your understanding, and this conditioned a re-arising of it through object predominance condition or something like that. Just thinking out loud. Tep: Please continue to think out louder and louder ! So it might ring another bell that provides an answer to the first "ring a bell" phenomenon. Ph: If I recall, this sutta was to emphasize the rarity of the opportunity to study Dhamma, which requires at least a human rebirth, right? It's a good reminder. Sometimes I feel guilty about studying Dhamma when I think I should be doing other things related to worldly "success." This sutta reminds us to be very grateful for this human life and the rare opportunity it gives us to develop understanding etc. Tep: Yes, Phil, you're right. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Tep, James and all > 45431 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Re: Might I also add buddhistmedi... Hello Andrew (Sarah, and all others) - I don't remember ever had an online conversation here with you before. But that doesn't matter, now that I have found you -- another person with real meditation experience. I am sorry to hear about your illness. If there is anything I can do to help you overcome that health problem, please let me know. Thank you for the willingness to communicate with us by providing one week for such a purpose. First, let me think out loud that I agree with your following points: -- Having an interest in the Dhamma is a far cry from mastering it. -- I certainly think taking a studious approach to Abhidhamma can be good, but it seems it will be exceedingly difficult to study and try to formulate different conceptual understandings of how reality works, much less apply them to real, or daily life. -- Sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). My Question ------------------- What is the most important meditation experience you have had that may be used to help people with good conceptual understandings to grasp how "reality works"? Respectfully yours, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Yes, hello. > > To Sarah especially and anyone else who has any opinion on the matter: > > (snipped) > I guess I'll leave it at this for now, hope this clarifies my position > on things to anyone in question. If anyone has any advice it'll > surely be welcome and I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) > > Thanks, > Andrew L. 45432 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:19pm Subject: Re: The more excellent happiness corvus121 Dear Hasituppada, Phil and Mike Thanks for your help. Yes, I see that it is a reference to the 2nd jhana. Still thinking about prompted/unprompted, Phil, but it doesn't seem to sit well with that prescriptive-type language we read in the sutta ie happiness "to be avoided" and "to be sought after". Enough on that, though ... Many thanks again Andrew T 45433 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 7:25pm Subject: Papanca and self-view corvus121 Hello all Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a sotapanna still has papanca. Right? How do we reconcile this? Best wishes Andrew T 45434 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: Might I also add kelvin_lwin Hi AndrewL, Recently I had a chance to be questioned at and taught by Sayadaw Pandita. He's here in California leading a retreat and my family was giving offering for breakfast and lunch. When I said not everything I read is clear then he said must practice where everything comes together. He said if the practice is proper, we should see rather gross and harsh akusala subsides, they should not even arise. I'm amazed that time during a retreat isn't considered daily life, as if you stop living. If you're still ruled by kilesas in that setting, there's not even a fighting chance in the "real world". As long as one is not a sotapanna, the kilesa seeds will again expand their influence as mindfulness slackens. Profound experiences while sitting or any position are what they are. As long as it's not magga, it's really not important. The true test is when we're met with disagreeable or agreeable objects. Do we get swept away as usual? be mindful after a while? Or not be affected at all and just note it as just another object? This is the indicator of how much de-conditioning comes from actual practice. The goal is one thing and the tools we use are another. We also find many examples of people mistaking their attainments in the suttas. The only solution is to keep striving and practicing. As for fear being a driver, we should really be scared to even waste a moment but most of us are immune to such things. My Abhidhamma teacher said in olden days before being taught the chapter on Lokas, novices would practice until they're at least sotapanna. This is due to the scariness of the existence in lower planes are described in the chapter. Now we're so numb to it, it doesn't strike the same sense of urgency. Finally it's really not about how well you know the teachings or remember the details. The path is pretty simple and clear, if you're not progressing then there's something wrong with the approach. We can't change the past hence resultants but every present moment is a chance to accumulate kusala and not generate any akusala. We know with certainty everything will give their due effect in some form, why do we still risk akusala behavior then? To observe akusala after it has fallen is merely cutting the losses because we can't change the past. Sayadaw also asked isn't it a waste of time for someone of my age to follow dhamma. I replied that it's because of dhamma I'm able to handle life at all. It's clear to me I'm just barely hanging on. As soon as my worldly responsiblities are over, there's no question where I'll go and how I'll practice. I'm not strong enough so I need a place with agreeable objects to help in my practice. I would say learning to be objective and really able to look or analyze yourself is the key. Ultimately change all the faulty behaviors that are not fitting of an ariya and we'll be one. - kel 45435 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 10:29pm Subject: Ariya Savako [Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, ..] buddhatrue Hi Phil and Tep, Tep, yes I found Phil's post most amusing. I have always found Phil's posts very amusing and entertaining: even in the early days when he couldn't figure me out and got very upset by my posts, and even now that he has become a K. Sujin devotee. Though long, Phil's posts are often filled with nuggets of wisdom and freshness. He doesn't have an attitude of `know-it-all' which I believe is very important to a Buddhist. Phil, I'm going to make some silly remarks and then some serious ones: Phil: As we know, he did. James is very sweet too. You can feel his sweetness under his occasionally obnoxious comments. James , you make my saccarine-sated heart ache with friendly feelings! James: ;-)) Now, don't go ruining my reputation. I am not sweet!! I kick puppies and chew nails everyday! ;-) Phil: Come and let me give you a big hug! No, I am coming to Egypt to give you a grrreat big bear hug! James: No, I don't think so. I will have security stop you at the airport and send you back home- I have connections ;-)) Phil: Interesting to note though, that as James suggested (I think - it's easier to reflect on the points he makes when he's not in bratty mode!) James: ;-)) `Bratty' is a pretty good description; most of my friends use `Bitchy' though. I usually have a bitchy personality (with adults)- and I do it on purpose. I want to shock people into thinking about things differently, and sometimes people just irritate me ;-). I have often wondered if I was Oscar Wilde in a previous existence. ;-) Now, some in this group may believe that this is an indictment against meditation and all that, or that they are superior because they act sweet and nice to everyone (fake), but I don't care- I'll just give them the finger! ;-)) Phil: making conciliatory comments can be conditioned by akusala as well as kusala. James: Yes, yes, yes!! That was exactly what I was saying (beneath the surface). Phil: There can be laziness about not wanting to continue a debate (this is often the case for me) lobha about having pleasant feeling of harmony rather than dispute and so on. James: I think that for most people it is the second one- wanting to feel good about the conversation- to not have any disputes so that everyone will feel happy and wonderful. There are many, many people who would do almost anything rather than make someone else upset. This is what I meant by my phrase "going to sleep with smiles on your faces." Phil: Or there can be kusala behind it, metta that arises suddenly, or right understanding re the content of the debate or so on. It depends, moment by moment. James: Yes, of course conciliatory comments can be motivated by real understanding and metta also, and that is a beautiful thing. But, it has been my experience that those who want to predominately have peace and harmony, and to never have anyone upset or bothered, do it for akusala reasons. (Not pointing fingers at anyone, just making an observation). Phil: p.s James, I will ramble on in the "Letter to James" thread on Saturday, as usual. It's becoming a Saturday night treat for me. James: Looking forward to it. BTW, I have been writing some updates about my life in Egypt that I think you might enjoy. Can you write to me off-list again so I have a working e-mail? (your other e-mail isn't working for some reason): buddhatrue@... Metta, James 45436 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 10:47pm Subject: Re: Might I also add kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Yes, hello. > > To Sarah especially and anyone else who has any opinion on the matter: > > I think you overestimate my ability and committment with and to the > Dhamma. I do not study and reflect well. I study when possible, > which is not often, much less times I study well. And I do not > reflect at all. I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, > and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental > perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. Hi Andrew, Hi Andrew L, All of us, nearly all the time, think, speak and act without regard for the Dhamma. That is because we are worldlings, and that is what worldlings do. (See the Mulapariyaya Sutta.) -------------------------------------------------- AL: > I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. --------------------------------------------------- In any other discipline, being unable to get a grip on the teaching would be a problem, but when we have regard for the Dhamma, it is not a problem. When we have regard for the Dhamma, we learn about 'ability' and 'inability' without the attachment that says, "This is my inability," and without the conceit that says,"I am the unable one" or the wrong view, "Inability is my self". -------------------------------------------------- AL: > So I like to keep it simple, as I bought a small volume by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. Certainly, a balanced perspective on this would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying because I think it will lead to bad things. ------------------------------------------------------ In ordinary sensible thinking, it is helpful to know our own strengths and weaknesses. However, in the Buddha's teaching, we have to know what strengths and weaknesses ultimately are. Ultimately, they are paramattha dhammas - fleeting phenomena, which come and go before the thinking mind can possibly catch hold of them. ------------------------------- AL: > I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to jibe with the people in this group. -------------------------------- :-) Ultimately, frustration is the paramattha dhamma, dosa. We never know exactly when it is present or not present. Nor do we have any control over it. If there are conditions for experiencing dosa with attachment or conceit or wrong view, then that will happen. If there are conditions for simply knowing that dosa is a conditioned dhamma, then that will happen. We can talk all we like about "I have frustration" or "I will concentrate on frustration with detachment," but those thoughts are mere concepts and not what the Buddha taught at all. ---------------------------------------------------- AL: > My whole world has revolved around sitting meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have acheived with it. ---------------------------------------------------- Fine; if it does you good then do it. But please don't have the wrong view, "The Buddha taught control over ultimate realities." ------------------- AL: > It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of high acheivement, -------------------- You have misunderstood what Sarah was saying. No one - monk or otherwise - has control over mindfulness. The sitting meditation referred to in the suttas is about jhana absorption in which consciousness returns over and over again to the same object. For that to happen, there has to be freedom from distractions, and until there is complete mastery of the jhanas, freedom from distractions requires a rock-steady sitting posture in a quiet, remote locality. ------------------------ AL: > as I and even some popular artists in the media I know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. Not being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). I've had results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post because it was profound compared to every day experience, or recognizing a phenomenon here or there. ------------------------ Profound it may have been, but recognising a phenomenon is infinitely more profound. That is, after all, what the Buddha taught. :-) Ken H 45437 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 12, 2005 11:07pm Subject: Re: Might I also add buddhatrue Hi Andrew, I haven't written to you before, but I really enjoyed this post. It is ironic that you want to leave and then you write such a nice post. Maybe you should reconsider. To make a few comments: Andrew: Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. James: This is a good thing!! Having fear of being reborn into states of deprivation will condition a lot more practice and good behavior than just theoretical understanding of the dhamma. I wish you could somehow spread that fear around! ;-) More people need it! Aharika-Anottappa is the Pali term for "lack of shame and dread". These are two of the four unwholesome states of consciousness associated with all karmically unwholesome states of consciousness (the other two being restlessness and delusion). So, it is from lack of dread (fear) that people do many horrible things and don't practice the dhamma. Paradoxically, it is your fear, Andrew, which makes you strong. Andrew: In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' James: I again agree with you here. Meditation (sitting, walking, lying, or standing) does create the conditions for seeing ultimate reality, and yet still have the ability to see conventional reality. Sarah and others talk about their meditation experiences and how they abandoned meditation, but I say that those experiences conditioned their ability to understand the Abhidhamma at all. Without meditation experience, the Abhidhamma is like a car manual to primitive peoples- it just won't make sense. However, unfortunately, those naysayers gave up meditation too soon because of their unreasonable expectations (See post #45407 by hasituppada). Now, they cannot seem to incorporate the view of conventional reality with the view of ultimate reality. Andrew: As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate or get something consistent going. James: I have had health problems also which interfere with my meditation practice. Try to solve the health problems as much as possible and use the interim time to study the Buddha's teachings. Study can condition insight (but I don't believe to the extent that same proclaim here). Good luck on the problems! Andrew: Add in that I am not dead serious about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right there. James: Don't give up. Be patient. It is impossible to understand the course of vipaka (results of kamma). Andrew: Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that play on me to stay going in a bad way James: Vipaka is one of the inconceivables which the Buddha taught cannot be fathomed by the human mind (except for a Buddha). What may seem bad now may actually turn out to be good later on. Just be patient and trust in the Buddha's teachings. Andrew: If anyone has any advice it'll surely be welcome James: I hope my advice has been helpful. Please reconsider leaving- at least at this time. Metta, James 45438 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 12, 2005 11:47pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 192 - Enthusiasm/piiti (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] We read in the “Mahånåma-sutta” (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sixes, Chapter I, §10) that the Buddha recommended Mahånåma to recollect the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, síla, generosity and devas (their good qualities). According to the Visuddhimagga Mahånåma was a sotåpanna, thus, he had right understanding of nåma and rúpa and he did not take any reality for self. We read: * "…Mahånåma, what time the ariyan disciple minds the Tathågata, his heart is never overwhelmed by passion, never overwhelmed by hatred, never overwhelmed by delusion; then, verily, is the way of his heart made straight because of the Tathågata. And with his heart’s ways straightened, Mahånåma, the ariyan disciple becomes zealous of the goal, zealous of Dhamma, wins the joy that is linked to Dhamma; and of his joy zest (píti) is born; when his mind is rapt in zest, his whole being becomes calm; calm in being, he experiences ease; and of him who dwells at ease the heart is composed. Mahånåma, of this ariyan disciple it is said: Among uneven folk he lives evenly; among troubled folk he lives untroubled; with the ear for Dhamma won, he makes become the ever minding of the Buddha." * The same is said with regard to the other recollections. According to the Visuddhimagga (VII, 121) only the ariyan disciple can cultivate the above mentioned subjects with success, since the non-ariyan cannot really fathom the meaning of these subjects. If one has not attained enlightenment, how could one know what it means to be enlightened and how could one clearly understand the meaning of “Buddha”? Nevertheless, also the non-ariyan can think of the Buddha with confidence and then píti may arise as well. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45439 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi James (& Tep), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: James, I think all the bodhpakkhiya dhammas you quoted refer to > dhammas or Dhammas -- whether in Suttanta or Abhidhamma. > > James: The Bodhpakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma? <...> ... S: As I understand, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas refer to various cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) which are classified in different ways, stressing different aspects, in order to explain the qualities which have to be developed in order for the conditions for enlightenment to be realized. These are ultimate realities (dhammas). A lot of detail is given in the Abhidhamma. In the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, there is a section on them in ch V11. In B.Bodhi’s guide to CMA, he writes: “Requisites of enlightenment: The Pali expression bodhipakkhiya dhammaa means literally “states on the side of enlightenment.” Although the expression appears rarely in the Suttas, in later literature it comes to be used as a general term for the thirty-seven factors into which the Buddha compressed the practice of his teaching (see D 16/ii,120, M 77/ii,11-12). These factors are called “requisites of enlightenment” because they conduce to the attainment of enlightenment, which is the knowledge of the four supramundane paths. The thirty-even requisites, as shown, fall into seven groups.” ***** S: In short, wisdom and the accompanying factors of enlightenment are developed to this degree by means of the 37 bodhipakkhiya dhammas : the four foundations of mindfulness (i.e satipatthana – awareness with wisdom, taking dhammas as objects), the four right efforts (sammaappadhanas - effort withwisdom), the four bases of success (i.e iddhi-padas –wish, effort, citta, investigation), the five faculties (i.e indriyas – confidence, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom), the five powers (balas – confidence, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wisdom), the seven factors of enlightenment (bhojjangas – awareness, investigation of Dhamma/wisdom, effort, joy, calm, concentration, equanimity) and the eight Path factors (right understanding/wisdom etc) ... Metta, Sarah p.s I think the chapter on ‘The Factors leading to Enlightenment’, (ch 1, Part 1V, The Development of Insight), about p.186 in A.Sujin’s “Survey of Paramattha Dhammas”, transl by Nina is very clear and you might be interested to take a look. (Abhidhamma.org). =============== 45440 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > I believe that this thread is important ... S: I agree....I’m going to continue being ‘picky’ on this one:-) ... > >T: ....the 5 aggregates are anatta because they are subject to disease > (aabaadha) ... > > S: ... because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject > to disease.. > > T: Isn't it true both ways? ... S: A subtle distinction, I think. The stress being on all dhammas being anatta and therefore conditioned and not in anyone’s control. .... > T: Yes, miccha-ditthi is real just as panca kkhandha is real, in the > sense of existence at a given moment. One who has a wrong view, > does not see characteristics of dhammas the way they really are. ... S: Just to clarify, miccha-ditthi is khandha – it is included in sankhara khandha. Also, the characteristic of wrong view is more than ‘not seeing’ dhammas as they are. That is the characteristic of moha (ignorance). Wrong view sees them ‘wrongly’ or in a distorted way. .... > S: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not > real. > > T: I think you may be contradicting to what you just said above. If the > wrong view of self (miccha-ditthi) is real, how can the concepts of self > > be unreal? ... S: This is important to clarify, thank you. Ditthi is a mental factor which arises with certain cittas rooted in lobha (attachment). At these moments of arising, the citta is real, the cetasikas are real, but the objects of these namas, i.e the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer or body or whatever else, are not real at all. The self or computer cannot be seen or heard or touched, they can only be imagined. Please let me know if this is still not clear. .... >The "concepts of self" are also a viewpoint, a ditthi. The > contradiction comes from an attachment to the Paramattha-dhamma > definition of pannatti. [:->) ... S: There can be thinking of concepts rightly or wrongly or neither rightly or wrongly.For example, there can be thinking about the great virtues of the Buddha. This is thinking rightly. Or there could be thinking that the Buddha still lives and protects us like a god. This is thinking wrongly. In the same way, there can be right and wrong thinking about ‘concepts of self’, concepts of anatta, definitions or paramattha dhammas. Likewise there can be thinking with or without attachment[:->). .... > S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were > warned:-). > > T: Please be precise -- write down the "above", because I don't know > which part of the above you referred to. > Look, you might miss a chance to abandon your extreme view of no > self! [ :->) ... S: It referred to pretty well everything I’d said in the last post so far...OK, I’ll fish it out and check, see* .... > T: It is so important that we are learning and adjusting/refining views > for > the better. Otherwise, why are we spending time discussing the > Dhamma? Thank you for the appreciation. Your discussion points are > very good too, Sarah. .... S: it’s good to talk to you, Tep and I enjoy your courteous discussions with everyone else too. Metta, Sarah * S: I think it says that because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to disease, and as you say, they cannot be controlled according to one’s wishes. [Yasmaa ca kho, bhikkave, ruupa.m (etc) anatta (since rupa is anatta),tasmaa ruupa.m aabaadhaaya sa.mvattati (then rupa is subject to disease),na ca labbhati ruupe: ‘eva.m me ruupa.m hotu, eva.m me ruupa.m maa ahosii’ti (one cannot obtain from rupa, may rupa be thus, may rupa not be thus).] .... <...> S: I would say, if and only if there is the illusion of self, there is the idea of being able to control the khandhas. If there were a self, rupa would not be subject to disease and one would be able to control them according to one’s wishes, but clearly this isn’t so. .... S: Miccha-ditthi is real. Wrong view is a cetasika which arises with certain kinds of cittas rooted in lobha. When it arises, there is a distorted idea of realities at that moment. The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. The ditthi itself has to be known over and over again when it arises in order for it to be eventually eradicated at the stage of sotapanna. ... S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and > self is > thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements > (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta > extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the > contrary. .... S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were warned:-). ... 45441 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, Thanks for joining this discussion. --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, <...> > I must say that I have been helped greatly by 'meditating all those > hours in the day and 'living unnaturally' as you put it. :) ... S: I think I did say 'living unnaturally' for me -- I'm a reasonably sociable person as you can see here and to live silently in a forest with minimal contact and little reading is very 'unnatural'. On the other hand, here in Hong Kong's hustle bustle, I'm perfectly at home:). .... > You might note many suttas where the buddha praises a great disciple > in meditation in a jungle without even a single movement of the > body. ... S: You might also note many suttas where the opposite is true. For example, look at the Mighajala Sutta in SN about living alone in the crowds or look at Meghiya in Udana 4-1. He was the Buddha's attendant and went off to the mango grove to meditate against the Buddha's advice and was overcome by kilesa (defilements). [Lots more on the deeper meanings of seclusion etc in U.P. under 'solitude, seclusion'.] ... >You might note other places where they are practicing walking > meditation, enjoying fewness of desires and even fewer meals and > hours asleep. :) ... S: Well, I read mention of developing bhavana while walking, sitting, standing etc. Again, pls see 'Walking' in U.P. and join in Htoo's discussion:). Fewness of desires - yes, but by understanding desires and other dhammas when they arise. I usually get up pretty early and only eat one meal and a bit, but I think that has very little to do (in my case) with fewness of desires -- probably, quite the contrary:). The same applies when I take myself off somewhere quietly for half the day or do my yoga or tai chi - desire is there, no matter how calm or tranquil it might appear. .... <..> > Yes of course it is motivated by desire and a sense of self. ... S: Especially if the actions are motivated by a sense of self and this is what is being accumulated, it should be known. It doesn't mean one needs to change ones habits, but it's important to see any wrong views of self more and more at such times ... >Once > VenAnanda was questioned by an ascetic about the buddhist path and > he talks about the 4 bases of power (sathara iddipada) of which the > first one is canda, which is a form of desire. .... S: Just to be clear, the chanda which is an iddhipada is kusala (wholesome) desire. chanda can be wholesome or more usually, unwholesome. When we were referring to desire in our discussion, it was to lobha (attachment)and unwholesome desire I think. (At least I was). Matheesha, I liked your sutta summaries, but to discuss further, you'd need to give me links or references. It's true that unwholesome states can condition wholesome ones, but that doesn't mean we cultivate the unwholesome ones. For example, anger may condition some wise reflection, but it doesn't mean that anger should be cultivated. .... > There is a sutta where the buddha admonishes Anathapindika and says > that lay people should spend time in seclusion, not just giving > dana. I dont see anything wrong in spending a few weeks away on > retreat as a necessary boost to develop some of the mental faculties > the buddha speaks of. ... S: Again we'd need to look at the Buddha's words more carefully. I also don't see anything wrong with retreats as such. It always comes back to bhavana - the meaning and the present mental states. If we're not in retreat now, should we wait until we are for bhavana? .... I have benefitted greatly from it and gained > much insight which otherwise i would not have. Most sutta would be > gibberish and just studying about the 'taste of oranges' if you know > what i mean. There's no hindrence to coming back and living your > life as it is. ... S: Again, the right cause will lead to the right results. Moments of real bhavana - samatha or vipassana development will lead to great results whether on retreat or at the computer in the city. The hindrance to satipatthana is wrong view about present dhammas. ... > > I'm sorry that you feel that such experience has not been useful to > you. ... S: Again, let me stress that I think that any moments of wise reflection, wise consideration and genuine sati are very useful. Moments of trying to direct sati with an idea of self or trying to have certain mental states arise or selecting particular objects for bhavana is less than not useful:). I think this is all regardless of the situation or circumstances we find ourselves in. ... > > Do you really feel that it is not possible to experience such things > as jhana mentioned in the suttas as we presently dont have enough > good kamma, as was suggested by someone earlier? .. S: I'm not really bothered about whether it's possible to attain jhana or become an arahant today for that moment. I know that there is (in my case) so little development of samatha and satipatthana that it's more helpful to just begin to understand the present dhammas as they appear now, rather than thinking about possible attainments in future, when we can have no idea. When others talk about their attainments, it's OK. We can check what is said in the texts and see if it makes sense. See also 'Sasana - decline' in U.P. if you like. ... > > I am not questioning what works for you. We all have to tread our > different paths. Different things work for different people. <...> ... S: Iknow this is a popular view. Only one path of satipatthana leading to one eightfold Path however. Thanks for your feedback, Matheesha. I am not saying to you or anyone 'Don't meditate' or 'Don't go to the forest'. I'm jsut saying that the path is about understanding present conditioned dhammas regardless of special intentions, locations or postures. Metta, Sarah ======== 45442 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:37am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Dear Hasituppada Charles:),(Tep, Htoo & All) --- hasituppada wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > It seems to me that there is a misinterpretation of the Buddhist > term PANNA. Panna has a far wider meaning than intelligence, > intellectuality, understanding or knowledge. In its Buddhist > meaning it is part of the eight fold path and the intuitive > knowledge which brings about the 4 stages of holiness and > realization of Nibbana (Buddhist Dictionary-Nyanatiloka) > The conditions for its arising is the knowledge acquired by reading > about the teaching, thinking about the teaching and practicing the > Teaching. ... S: Yes, there are different kinds and degrees of panna. All bhavana has to be with panna. ... > > Therefore the "necessary instructions" given by the Buddha are not > to be spoken of lightly, but they are to be realized through putting > them into practice. ... S: Let's just say 'practicing the Teaching', i.e patipatti or bhavana, after reading, considering and reflecting on the truths. 'Putting them into practice' can again suggest a 'doing' of something special by a self, perhaps. .... <...> > I repeat that you have not understood what is Samatha. There may be > more to it than what you believe it to be. If there is no "sitting" > there is no Buddhist bhavana ( and with out Bhavana, there is no > Buddhism) ... S: Please explain more what samatha is and how sitting cross-legged focussing on the breath as a Buddhist is any more samatha or satipatthana than as performed by a yoga student who has never heard about the Buddha's teachings. Did the Buddha ever say that 'If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana'? Tep & Htoo, what are your views on these points? ... > I am happy to be in a forum, where I am able to put my point of view > across without trespassing on any ones patience and politeness. ... S: Quite the contrary. You'll have a lot of support for continuing this discussion and questioning any of my comments:). .... > Dear Sarah, I have left out the rest of your message to what I wrote > to Christine as it would be more appropriate that I reply her in > case she raises those points. ... S: yes, I look forward to your further discussions with others too. Metta, Sarah ========= 45443 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (361) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Threads start with explanation on realities. Dhamma Thread discuss on citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatta. Dhamma Thread relate citta with different sets of combination of cetasikas. Dhamma Thread classify cittas in different ways. Cetasikas or mental factors or mental accompaniments are explained in detail with examples and evidences. Cetasikas are grouped into different sets and they assigned as people performing their different functions. Dhamma Thread explain what is rupa and what are each rupa and their implications in loka or worlds of kaama or sensuous sphere, rupa or fine material world or sphere. Rupa are investigated as they are. Rupa are there as rupa kalaapa or aggregates of materials. Different aggregates of materials have been explained in detail. Causes of rupa dhamma are also discussed in Dhamma Threads. How rupa arises, how it falls away and how long they exist when they are living as dhamma are also explained in Dhamma Thread posts. Rupa dhamma are thoroughly discussed in the previous posts. Nibbana is discussed sensitively and explained with examples. After explanation on nibbana, pannatti dhamma is also discussed. Apart from citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana there is no other ultimate realities. Other dhamma is pannatti and panatti is not an ultimate reality. After discussions on these matters, cittas are re-classified. Then cittas in procession or vithi cittas are explained in some detail. There are 14 different functions of citta and these functions are explained along with vithi vara. After processions of cittas, vithi-mutta or procession-free cittas and their implications are explained as bhuumi or realms or as 31 planes of existence. These 31 planes of existence have to exist because of kamma or actions and kamma are then explained in different ways. Currently Dhamma Thread explain kusala kamma and punna-kiriya-vatthu. There are 31 bhuumis or 31 realms because of kamma. There are 4 kamma depending on where beings are born due to their kamma. These 4 kamma are 1. akusala kamma 2. kaama kusala kamma 3. ruupa kusala kamma 4. aruupa kusala kamma Akusala and kaama kusala kamma have been explained in the previous posts. In the coming posts rupa-kusala kamma will be explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45444 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:03am Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: Hello all Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a sotapanna still has papanca. Right? How do we reconcile this? Best wishes Andrew T -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Andrew T, There are 3 things that proliferate the mind. They are craving [tanha], conceit [maana], wrong-view [ditthi]. By definition, yes. Sotapanna do not have any wrong-view [ditthi]. Personality-belief or sakkaaya-ditthi is just a minor form of ditthi. When sotapanna do not have any ditthi or wrong-view, they still have conceit[maana] and craving[tanha]. So they do have papanca dhamma. So they will still be proliferating their mind. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45445 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:18am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Hasituppada Charles:),(Tep, Htoo & All) Hasituppada wrote: > I repeat that you have not understood what is Samatha. There may be more to it than what you believe it to be. If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana ( and with out Bhavana, there is no Buddhism) ... Sara wrote: S: Please explain more what samatha is and how sitting cross-legged focussing on the breath as a Buddhist is any more samatha or satipatthana than as performed by a yoga student who has never heard about the Buddha's teachings. Did the Buddha ever say that 'If there is no "sitting" there is no Buddhist bhavana'? Tep & Htoo, what are your views on these points? ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah, Hasituppada, Tep and all, I can sense both sides. I am smiling to both sides. When I say 'both sides' I am not discriminating you and not classifying you into 2 group. But just for discussion. I think, Hasituppada is saying that 'without sitting means no Buddhist bhavana'. I decline it. Bhavana has definition. It is cultivation. It is breeding. It is growing of seeds, plants, trees. It is a mental exertion. It is purification of mind by mental exertions and mental actions. There is no specific mentionings on positions in relation with bhavana. But satipatthana or vipassana can practise in any position, anywhere and at any time. This seems I am supporting Sarah. But for tranquility meditation, the best position is 'a still position'. There is no way to do jhana when one is running because a tiger is following him. :-) Again there are 3 positions that support still-position. They are standing, sitting, and lying down. Standing cannot support very long like lying and sitting. Lying may stray the mind and cause less effort than sitting. So sitting is the best position. Choosing a right place is also good. Do not say that this is ritual. 'Will you choose a disco night to do jhana?' :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 45446 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:24am Subject: Dhamma Thread (362) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 sets of 4 kammas or 'catu-catukka kamma'. Depending on 'the function of kamma' there are janaka kamma or regenerative kamma, upatthambhaka kamma or supportive kamma, upapiilaka kamma or reductive kamma and upaghataka kamma or destructive kamma. Depending on 'seniority in timing of giving rise to results, there are garuka kamma or heavy kamma, asanna kamma or frequenting kamma, acinna kamma or practised kamma and katattaa kamma or olden kamma. Depending on 'the timing of result-giving', there are dittha-dhamma- vedaniiya kamma or 'visible kamma', upapajja-vedaniiya kamma or 'coming kamma', aparaapariya-vedaniiya kamma or 'next-coming kamma' and ahosi kamma or non-fruitful kamma. Depending on bhuumi that kamma can give rise to, there are akusala kamma or 'unwholesome kamma', kaama kusala kamma or 'sensuous wholesome kamma', ruupa kusala kamma or 'fine material wholesome kamma', and aruupa kamma or 'non-material wholesome kamma'. Akusala and kaama kusala kamma have been discussed to some detail. In the coming post rupa kusala kamma and rupa jhana will be discussed. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45447 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:18am Subject: Saving Rescue ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Ten Liberators: Sariputta once said: 1: The experience of Thorough & Steadfast Disgust. 2: The experience of Rapidly Approaching Death. 3: The experience of Dislike with all & any Food. 4: The experience of Dispassion with the whole World. 5: The experience of the Inevitable Impermanence. 6: The experience of the Frustration inherent in Change. 7: The experience of the Impersonality within Frustration. 8: The experience of Letting Go and Leaving all Behind. 9: The experience of Disinterested & Detached Disillusion. 10: The experience of Calming, Stilling, Ceasing & Ending. These 10 perceptions are real, true, exactly so & not otherwise, perfectly realized, comprehended & formulated by the Buddha. They cool all craving, relinquish all clinging, and still all urge... They are therefore to be remembered, recited & reflected over repeatedly.. When made arise, they release mind into Bliss & Peace! Source: The Exhaustive Speeches by the Buddha. Digha Nikaya 34 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25103 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45448 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 4:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread (363) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa kusala kamma. These are kamma when ruupa jhanas are being developed. That is the cetana cetasika that arise in ruupa jhanas become ruupa kusala kamma. As there are 5 ruupa jhaanas then there are 5 ruupa kusala kamma. Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana But in practical there seem to be 4 ruupa jhaana. Because it is very very difficult to ascend up as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. What happens is jhaana arise in ascending order like 1, 3, 4, 5. 2nd jhaana in 5-step jhaana is difficult to obtain. As there are 5 limbs of jhaana there has to be 5 jhaana kusala cittas. And so there seem to be 5 ruupa jhaana in terms of abhidhamma. But in real practice, what happens is 1,3,4,5 and there are only 4 jhaanas. This is proved by ruupa jhaana bhuumi. There is no 5th jhaana bhuumi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45449 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 5:28am Subject: Breathing Treatise / Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested members - Please recall that Section i defines the eight kinds of knowledge of obstacles and eight kinds of knowledge of aids in Group I (the first of the 10 groups, I - X, in the Summary). This Section ii examines Group II (eighteen kinds of knowledge of perfection). Please notice that commentaries are given in the square brackets [ ]. They are the same as, but contain less detail than those in Chapter VIII of the Visuddhimagga. [Section ii] 6. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from these hindrances develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds, the following eighteen imperfections(upakilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations(samodhaana). [PTS Text, vol. i, p. 164, 1.2. "When the imperfections arise, they do so successively from moment to moment, in momentary sequence, not in a single moment of cognizance".] What eighteen imperfections arise? (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of an in-breath, his cognizance becomes distracted(vikkhepa) internally, and that is an obstruction(antaraaya) to concentration (samaadhi). ["Of the breath entering inwards, the nose-tip or the upper lip is the beginning, the heart the middle, and the navel the end". PsA 322 S. The out-breath is the other way around.] (2) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of an out-breath, his cognizance becomes distracted externally, and that is an obstruction to concentration. (3) Such behavior of craving(tanhaa) as hope for, and attachment (nikhanti) to, in-breath is an obstruction to concentration. (4) Such behavior of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out-breath is an obstruction to concentration. (5) Any longing for out-breath in him, when he is fatigued by [too long or too short] in-breath, is an obstruction to concentration. (6) Any longing for in-breath in him, when he is fatigued by out-breath, is an obstruction to concentration. ["Desire in the form of longing for continued gross in-breaths after concluding that 'This meditation subject depends on the passage of wind through the nostrils' is manifestation of craving, which obstructs concentration through lack of establishment in the unities... One makes a very long or a very short in- breth can be irritated and plagued by that in-breath because of the bodily and mental fatigue caused by it." PsA 322 S.] 7. Mindfulness running after in-breath And running after out-breth, too, Expecting distraction inwardly, Loving distraction outwardly, The longing for out-breath in one Who is by in-breath much fatigued, The longing for in-breath in one, Who is by out-breath much fatigued, These six defects in concentration Based upon mindfulness of breathing Are such as will prevent release of cognizance that they distract; And those who know not liberation Perforce must trust in others' words. 8. (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjita) to the sign, his cognizance is shakable by in-breath, this is an obstacle to concentration. ["The sign is the place where the in-breaths and out-breaths touch. For in-breaths and out-breaths as they occur strike the nose-tip of one with a long nose and the upper lip of one with a short nose." PsA 323 S] (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is shakable by the sign, this is an obstacle to concentration. (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is shakable by out- breath, this is an obstacle to concentration. (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is shakable by the sign, this is an obstruction to concentration. (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is shakable by out- breath, this is an obstruction to concentration. (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is shakable by in- breath, this is an obstruction to concentration. 9. Adverting to the sign the while the mind Is still distracted by in-breath; Adverting to in-breath while cognizance Can still be shaken by the sign; Adverting to the sign the while the mind Is still distracted by out-breath; Adverting to out-breath while cognizance Can still be shaken by the sign; Adverting to in-breath the while the mind Is still distracted by out-breath; Adverting to out-breath while cognizance Can still be shaken by in-breath; These six defects in concentration Based on mindfulness of breathing Are such as will prevent release Of cognizance that they can shake; And those who know not liberation Perforce must trust in others' words. 10. (13) Cognizance that runs after the past [breaths] is attacked by distraction and is an obstruction to concentration. [This is "Cognizance that follows after in-breath or out-breath that has passed beyond the place of contact and gone away from it". The next is "Cognizance that expects and awaits in-breath not yet arrived at the place of contact" PsA 323 S]. (14) Cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] is an obstruction to concentration. (15) Slack cognizance is attacked by indolence(kosajja) and is an obstruction to concentration. (16) Over-exerted cognizance is attacked by agitation(uddhacca) and is an obstruction to concentration. (17) Enticed cognizance is attacked by greed and is an obstruction to concentration. (18) Repelled cognizance is attacked by ill-will and is an obstruction to concentration. Tep's Comment: The remaining part of this Section ii, which explains the 18 imperfections above, will be posted next Friday, 5/20/05. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45450 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 13, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Might I also add upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew & James - Andrew, I would like to second all that James has to say in the following. I think that we all benefit from your presence here and that you benefit from being here. I think that one of the most important things we can learn is that there need not, even should not, be a choice between perfection and nothing-at-all, because until we reach complete perfection the choice will always be nothing-at-all, a harmful choice. Please do remain here, and more importantly, please continue to exert serious effort in continuing to practice, regardless of how your mind tends to think "Oh, it's not good enough" or "Conditions make it worthless," for that is just the defilements speaking. They speak loudly in all of us, and nothing shuts them up better than maintaining a regular practice regardless of what the "quality" of that practice might seem to be. When one is *aware* of difficulties, imperfection, and defilements in oneself, IMO this indicates not a deficiency but progress! There is none so lost who isn't even aware there is a problem! Second only to that unawareness in "danger" is knowing that things are imperfect and falsely concluding that giving up is the right response. Please continue to walk the middle path with ease and happiness, and without self-imposed requirements and expectations. Have courage, my friend, and other than being clearly aware of them, let difficult conditions and defilements alone, to come and go as they will. Just persevere as best you can in a relaxed and happy way. With metta, Howard In a message dated 5/13/05 2:10:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Andrew, I haven't written to you before, but I really enjoyed this post. It is ironic that you want to leave and then you write such a nice post. Maybe you should reconsider. To make a few comments: Andrew: Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in the states of deprivation. James: This is a good thing!! Having fear of being reborn into states of deprivation will condition a lot more practice and good behavior than just theoretical understanding of the dhamma. I wish you could somehow spread that fear around! ;-) More people need it! Aharika-Anottappa is the Pali term for "lack of shame and dread". These are two of the four unwholesome states of consciousness associated with all karmically unwholesome states of consciousness (the other two being restlessness and delusion). So, it is from lack of dread (fear) that people do many horrible things and don't practice the dhamma. Paradoxically, it is your fear, Andrew, which makes you strong. Andrew: In hindsight, sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' James: I again agree with you here. Meditation (sitting, walking, lying, or standing) does create the conditions for seeing ultimate reality, and yet still have the ability to see conventional reality. Sarah and others talk about their meditation experiences and how they abandoned meditation, but I say that those experiences conditioned their ability to understand the Abhidhamma at all. Without meditation experience, the Abhidhamma is like a car manual to primitive peoples- it just won't make sense. However, unfortunately, those naysayers gave up meditation too soon because of their unreasonable expectations (See post #45407 by hasituppada). Now, they cannot seem to incorporate the view of conventional reality with the view of ultimate reality. Andrew: As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate or get something consistent going. James: I have had health problems also which interfere with my meditation practice. Try to solve the health problems as much as possible and use the interim time to study the Buddha's teachings. Study can condition insight (but I don't believe to the extent that same proclaim here). Good luck on the problems! Andrew: Add in that I am not dead serious about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right there. James: Don't give up. Be patient. It is impossible to understand the course of vipaka (results of kamma). Andrew: Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that play on me to stay going in a bad way James: Vipaka is one of the inconceivables which the Buddha taught cannot be fathomed by the human mind (except for a Buddha). What may seem bad now may actually turn out to be good later on. Just be patient and trust in the Buddha's teachings. Andrew: If anyone has any advice it'll surely be welcome James: I hope my advice has been helpful. Please reconsider leaving- at least at this time. Metta, James /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45451 From: "hasituppada" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. hasituppada Dear Sarah,Nina,KenH, Jon, Tep, Htoo, Matheesha and Christine. Sarrah, thank you for the message. I explained in the several posts I submitted most of what I know about meditation. One may practice, the reality of the present moment, smamtha, vipassana,satipatthana, sitting, standing, lying down, swimming, driving,running or jumping. I do Bhavana sitting down, and I am mindful of the four positions and I do walking meditation. All these are a part of Bhavana, which is Samatha followed by Vipassana. All the instructions for my purpose are found in the Mahasatipattahna Sutta . And I read instructive Suttas time to time. What is important is that you keep in touch with the Dhamma, whatever you do with it, or however you apply it in your life. I thank you all who participated in this discussion with me and my special thanks to Tep who brought me into it. with metta, Hasituppada 45452 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: Saving Rescue ... !!! foamflowers --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bhikkhu Samahita" wrote: > Friends: > > The Ten Liberators: > > Sariputta once said: On Friday, May 13, 2005, at 02:18 AM, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: Friends: The Ten Liberators: Sariputta once said: 1: The experience of Thorough & Steadfast Disgust. 2: The experience of Rapidly Approaching Death. 3: The experience of Dislike with all & any Food. 4: The experience of Dispassion with the whole World. 5: The experience of the Inevitable Impermanence. 6: The experience of the Frustration inherent in Change. 7: The experience of the Impersonality within Frustration. 8: The experience of Letting Go and Leaving all Behind. 9: The experience of Disinterested & Detached Disillusion. 10: The experience of Calming, Stilling, Ceasing & Ending. These 10 perceptions are real, true, exactly so & not otherwise, perfectly realized, comprehended & formulated by the Buddha. They cool all craving, relinquish all clinging, and still all urge... They are therefore to be remembered, recited & reflected over repeatedly.. When made arise, they release mind into Bliss & Peace! Bhikkhu Samahita, Your last post reminds me of the "indifference of nature" that I grew up with as a child and through most of my adult years. I didn't realize this special kind of 'indifference' until I had to leave it and I was sitting on a sub way train in Chicago andI saw a solitary tree in the middle of the cities business. I"m grateful for your posts thank you. http://www.oregonlive.com/galleries/travel/portlandoregon.ssf?/cgi-bin/slide-show.cgi/olive/slide_show_wcard.ata?index=0&g_id=2807 http://www.estacada.k12.or.us/Forest%20School/photos%20page/100_0046.JPG http://www.estacada.k12.or.us/Forest%20School/photos%20page/000_0001.JPG http://www.estacada.k12.or.us/Forest%20School/photos%20page/100_0046.JPG With metta, Lisa 45453 From: "Lisa" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 7:05am Subject: Going to see my Grandson and Grandmother foamflowers Hi everyone, I've been really busy of late working two jobs and all and now I'm taking off to see my first Grandchild. My family, two sisters besides me and I'm the oldest (46) and my Mother, Grandmother (90), my daughter (26)and my grandson, (6) months and (2) brothers in law, (1) son in law, and my sister's children (19, 16, 5, and 2) all healthy and doing well! I have four grown children and that is the reason I started Buddhism actually. So I could find that calm spot in the middle of the storm of my life and stay centered as my family grew up and finally left to live their own lives. The Art of Living and the Art of Dying, my Grandmother may not be here next year she has been ill with small stokes so this is a special time, new life just started and old life soon to pass. Say a prayer of protection for my boyfriend, all the women in my family are going to hug, kiss and feed him to death! I hope he survives...lol... I will be gone through the weekend and be back to posting my scribble some time mid-week. With Metta, Lisa 45454 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 8:33am Subject: The Art of Dying htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Freinds, We were born here on this earth and we all are ready to die whether we individually have prepared to die or not. The art of dying! There are many different ways of dying. 1. die in despair 2. die with shock 3. die helplessly 4. die restlessly 5. die agitated 6. die greedily 7. die cheerfully 8. die calmly 9. die peacefully 10.die mournfully 11.die clearly 12.die still 13.die liberated We cannot choose any of these as our mode of death as we cannot know when it comes. But we all can prepre for our death so that we do not die in despair, with shock, helplessly, restlessly, agitated, greedily, mournfully. How to prepare! Just to breed a good habit. Habit develops with repeated practice. Near dying there is a race. A race of kamma. We have done a lot in this life however old we are. Among them the most prominent kamma come out as leading kamma. If we have grown a good habit, this may probably help peaceful death. May you all be free of akusala. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45455 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, Howard and other interested members - I appreciate your attention to the story of my walking-meditation experience, Htoo. Meditation is not hallucination or a pretending-to-be- important kind of activity: it is something sincere people do, and you know that. Since by its very nature it is one person's personal experience, unless you have similar and more advanced meditation skills you don't know if I am telling a true or a false story. Yet, at the minimum, by sharing our meditation experiences we can learn from each other. > Tep: > Question: What do you think of the above experience of mine, and > have you got similar one to share with us? Thanks. > Htoo: > As I am on the same activities I do know what you are describing. > What is important is that there is no discontinuity in naana or > wisdom. > > If you really reached higher stages, you will have been printed with > a seal called sotapatti magga or above. Otherwise there always is > discontinuity. > > There is no particular time that naama and ruupa are clearly > distinguished. So it starts with the first consciousness till the > last consciousness in a day just before slipping into deep sleep. > > DSG will say that 'understanding' is important and will deny special > activities. > Tep: It is true that a "clearly distinguished" naama or ruupa may arise anytime, the event is not random. It is not a Roulette game: it depends on a number of deterministic factors such as meticulousness and continuity as said by Sayadaw U Pandita in the book, "In This Very Life". Like Niana said, sati and viriya can be accumulated and these are supportive conditions. The "atapi sampajjano satima" person will achieve samadhi. Tep: Now may I ask you to continue the discussion of gacchanto vaa 'gacchaamii' ti pajaanaati to the next two body postures? : Thito vaa 'thitomhii' ti pajaanaati, While he is standing, he knows properly: "I am standing"; nisinno vaa 'nisinnomhii' ti pajaanaati, .. while he is sitting, he knows properly: "I am sitting".. [From Mahaasatipatthaana Suttam, Vipassana Research Institute.] It is relatively easy to know properly ( or know in detail, as you put it) while you are walking. But when you are standing or sitting still, it is not easy to have sati and sampajjanna in the body posture for a long time. The mind will get agitated or become restless, because it is the nature of untrained minds to behave like that. It is a demonstration of the uddhacca hindrance in action. The walking meditation, which also incorporates standing meditation, is a good practice to overcome the hindrances such as uddhacca(agitation) and tina-middha(stiffness and torpor). Once you can rid the mind of all 5 hindrances, you will attain the 1st jhana citta. Am I correct in making such a conclusion? Respectfully yours, Tep ======= 45456 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hi Hasituppada and all DSG friends - It was a pleasure to have Charles Perera (Hasituppada) as our "guest speaker" on meditation (samatha-vipassana bhavana, as Charles puts it). Sincere students of Buddhism and Buddhists who have unshaken saddha in the Buddha must have at least one thing in common -- the intention to penetrate the Four Noble Truths. I believe that people with such strong kusala cetana cannot be narrow-minded. Therefore, based on this reasoning, I can say with confidence, Charles, that our DSG members truly appreciated your several posts in the past two weeks. Personally, I want to thank you for accepting my invitation and for your unique contribution to the DSG forum. Sincerely, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "hasituppada" wrote: > > Dear Sarah,Nina,KenH, Jon, Tep, Htoo, Matheesha and Christine. > > Sarrah, thank you for the message. I explained in the several posts > I submitted most of what I know about meditation. One may practice, > the reality of the present moment, smamtha, vipassana,satipatthana, > sitting, standing, lying down, swimming, driving,running or jumping. > > I do Bhavana sitting down, and I am mindful of the four positions > and I do walking meditation. All these are a part of Bhavana, which > is Samatha followed by Vipassana. > > All the instructions for my purpose are found in the > Mahasatipattahna Sutta . And I read instructive Suttas time to time. > > What is important is that you keep in touch with the Dhamma, > whatever you do with it, or however you apply it in your life. > > I thank you all who participated in this discussion with me and my > special thanks to Tep who brought me into it. > > with metta, > Hasituppada 45457 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:07pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view matheesha333 Hello Andrew T, A sothapanna has no self view, but a sense of self still persists. ie - he still automatically uses it in his thinking out of force of habit, even though he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no Self to be found anywhere. I could find you the exact sutta which explains this but im feeling a bit lazy right now, so pleas excuse me! I hope it is not a life or death matter. :) take care Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? > > Best wishes > Andrew T 45458 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Going to see my Grandson and Grandmother sarahprocter... Wow Lisa, So your grandmother is a great, great grandmother:-) Hope you have a super time and that your boyfriend survives the challenge. --- Lisa wrote: <...> > I will be gone through the weekend and be back to posting my scribble > some time mid-week. ... S: Noted and will look forward very much to more of your 'scribble' then. I'm sure you'll have some great 'dhamma reflections with family generations in daily life' to share....Nina will be back to enjoy them too. You're certainly a very energetic granny...:-). Have fun and sati with the baby! Metta, Sarah ======= 45460 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 3:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Hasituppada Charles, I agree with all Tep's comments below -- very nicely said, Tep and thank you also for encouraging these posts. I hope we don't need to wait too long before yor next 'flurry' of posts, Hasituppada Charles. I always appreciate your input and our discussions a lot - even when we reach different conclusions here. Best wishes in the meantime with samatha-vipassana bhavana. Metta, Sarah p.s I know Nina will be very glad if you stay around or join in any discussions on Abhidhamma anytime. She always likes your questions and hearing from you too. ====== --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Hasituppada and all DSG friends - > > It was a pleasure to have Charles Perera (Hasituppada) as our "guest > speaker" on meditation (samatha-vipassana bhavana, as Charles > puts it). Sincere students of Buddhism and Buddhists who have > unshaken saddha in the Buddha must have at least one thing in > common -- the intention to penetrate the Four Noble Truths. I believe > that people with such strong kusala cetana cannot be narrow-minded. > Therefore, based on this reasoning, I can say with confidence, Charles, > that our DSG members truly appreciated your several posts in the past > two weeks. > > Personally, I want to thank you for accepting my invitation and for >your unique contribution to the DSG forum. 45461 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:22pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > Dear Andrew T, > > There are 3 things that proliferate the mind. They are craving > [tanha], > conceit [maana], wrong-view [ditthi]. > > By definition, yes. Sotapanna do not have any wrong-view [ditthi]. > Personality-belief or sakkaaya-ditthi is just a minor form of ditthi. > > When sotapanna do not have any ditthi or wrong-view, they still have > conceit[maana] and craving[tanha]. So they do have papanca dhamma. So > they will still be proliferating their mind. Dear Htoo Thank you for your very clear answer. I wonder if I could ask you another question on wrong view/right view? The question is: does a mind-moment of wrong view/right view *always* include vitakka-vicara? I hope this question makes sense. Many thanks again for sharing your Dhamma knowledge. Best wishes Andrew T PS I see that Matheesha has replied also. Thank you. 45462 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 6:49pm Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, Htoo: > I like your words and K Sujin's words. Descriptive, prescriptive > things. S: I am very happy that you appreciate this distinction. Many don't, and some would even go to the extreme of taking the example of the Buddha's disciples including Sariputta, or even the Buddha's own experience of enlightenment, to justify continuing with their conventional practices. This shows how little appreciation there is, of paccaya and how much importance is given to certain activities. We can't read a Sutta without taking into consideration the level of understanding, hence the possibility of `misunderstanding'. Besides lobha is also always there to influence even when the understanding is correct, how much more so when there is wrong understanding. First we think the practice is all about `what they did' and what some revered monks today `do'. Then we justify what we do by adding the epithet `right effort' and even choose to interpret samma sankapa as `right intention' . :-/ You also said; -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > 'When going, he detailed-knows he goes'. As you said this is nothing. > But this is conventional things and we do not need to see just > superficial. > > As you said, this is descriptive and not prescriptive. > > So it is WRONG to perceive as 'We must know when we go as we are > going'. > > The meaning in the whole sentence is that 'there are many ruupas, > they arise, persist, fall away and there are naama, they arise, > persist, and fall away. This is not only in us but also in others. > There are causes and when these causes are not there they will vanish > and so the practitoner clearly see these with good mindfulness > diligently and he is not on any of wrong ideas and he at the time of > seeing naama and ruupa is said to be liberated' S: But then at the end you say; -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we > go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. S: So today I would like to talk about something I once mentioned to you, last year I think, namely, "What a beginner needs to hear". But I think I will go into this later, my children are about to come down and the weekend is usually no time to write mails. Just enough time maybe for a short comment to this part of your post; --------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > Actually 'satipatthana' was preached many many times in many places > and by many arahats including Sariputta, Moggalana and others. I said > satipatthana and I do not say 'satipatthana sutta'. S: Yes the Way is indeed Satipatthana. This is why some of us would go further and say to the effect that in *all* the suttas, satipatthana is implied. And this adds weight the understanding that the actual sutta itself, i.e. 'satipatthana sutta', can't be about `things to "do"', doesn't it? And though of course, the Buddha encouraged all levels of kusala, especially the development of parami. This latter cannot be said to be developing if there is not any understanding of those dhammas as and when they arise. Also as I see it, all the teachings related to jhana in the Suttas, is not ultimately about "how to develop jhana", but indeed to understand this in light of the practice of satipatthana. Why would the Buddha teach jhana when he could vipassana? Must end here. Metta, Sukinder 45463 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 7:01pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep Coming in behind the pack as usual ;-)) Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. It takes courage to do that with this lot here ;-)) There is one point in your message that I am in full agreement with, and that is where you explain that at moments of knowing nama and rupa (i.e., of insight) there is also samatha because the mind is concentrated and calm. As you will appreciate, this means that if insight is being developed, so is samma-samadhi, right concentration. I believe this goes part way towards explaining why in the suttas samma-samadhi is often described in terms of the jhanas. By the time insight has been developed to the stage of enlightenment, the accompanying samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana (regardless of whether mundane jhana has previously been developed). As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking (or sitting). Do you think it possible that references to the 4 postures could be intended to mean something like 'at any time regardless of the posture', much like we might say in ordinary speech 'day or night', 'whether awake or sleeping', etc? Appreciating this and your other threads. Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Htoo, Howard, Hasituppada, KenH, Sukiner, Nina and others - > > I'd like to tell you a story that may explain why walking meditation can > be both samatha (tranquillity) and vipassana(insight), based on my > own experience. ... > When I am fully aware of each movement of the body (walking, > stopping, standing, turning back) and when I know its begining and its > ending, that is knowing ruupa. Then there are gladness and calm > (these are nama) arising, and I am fully aware of them when they > arise and when they persist. That is knowing nama. Because the > mind is concentrated and calm now; that is samatha. ... 45464 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 13, 2005 10:51pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 193 - Enthusiasm/piiti (k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] We cannot induce the arising of kusala píti, it can only arise because of its own conditions. Shortly after kusala píti has arisen and fallen away, attachment is bound to arise. We may feel very satisfied about “our kusala” and we may find it very important to have píti. We may think that it can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. It is essential to realize the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta; thus we will see that there are not kusala cittas all the time, even when we think that we are performing kusala. We may expect pleasant things from other people, we like to be praised by them, we want to show others our good qualities and our knowledge, or we are attached to the company of people. Defilements are so deeply rooted and they arise whenever there is an opportunity for their arising. There are many objects which can condition lobha and lobha can be accompanied by somanassa and píti. Enthusiasm which is unwholesome can arise very shortly after enthusiasm which is wholesome and it is hard to know their difference. We may find it discouraging to discover that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, but at the moment of knowing akusala citta as it is there is right understanding. At such a moment the citta is kusala citta and there is no aversion nor feeling of discouragement. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45465 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 11:08pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view corvus121 Dear Htoo I have woken up a little and realised that my (new) question below is not really what I am after. Of course, vitakka-vicara is not always present with right view (panna cetasika) etc. Sorry! (-: Especially in the West, I understand, we consider humans to be "thinking" beings ("I think, therefore I am" Descartes etc.). As has been noted on DSG before (by Jon and others), a view has arisen in modern Buddhism that thinking is antithetical to sati (mindfulness/awareness). "If only I could stop thinking, I would be more mindful." Who hasn't been told by a 'meditation master' that the Buddha instructed us to empty our minds of thoughts so that we can be concentrated and make progress? So I have been reflecting upon the worldling and the relationship between vitakka-vicara and sati. It feels like we have much vitakka- vicara and little sati and this no doubt leads people to consider that there is some sort of inverse relationship between the 2. This in turn leads some to exercise effort to avoid thinking so that more sati may arise. But is this inverse relationship a true one or a false one? If we accept that right understanding (panna) comes first, is it valid to say that when more panna arises, there is less vitakka-vicara? And when more panna arises, more sati arises? Htoo, your clear-thinking may deal with these questions much better than mine. What do you think about this, if I am ask? Many thanks and best wishes Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > > Dear Andrew T, > > > > There are 3 things that proliferate the mind. They are craving > > [tanha], > > conceit [maana], wrong-view [ditthi]. > > > > By definition, yes. Sotapanna do not have any wrong-view [ditthi]. > > Personality-belief or sakkaaya-ditthi is just a minor form of ditthi. > > > > When sotapanna do not have any ditthi or wrong-view, they still have > > conceit[maana] and craving[tanha]. So they do have papanca dhamma. So > > they will still be proliferating their mind. > > Dear Htoo > > Thank you for your very clear answer. I wonder if I could ask you > another question on wrong view/right view? The question is: does a > mind-moment of wrong view/right view *always* include vitakka- vicara? > > I hope this question makes sense. Many thanks again for sharing your > Dhamma knowledge. > > Best wishes > Andrew T > > PS I see that Matheesha has replied also. Thank you. 45466 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 11:15pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep (and Jon), Tep, to help you out with this point made by Jon: Jon: As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking (or sitting). James: In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk who was doing walking meditation in the forest and he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking meditation, then the Buddha taught it. Metta, James 45467 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for your efforts to answer this question for me. See, as Tep observed, I don't bite. ;-) Sarah: As I understand, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas refer to various cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) which are classified in different ways, stressing different aspects, in order to explain the qualities which have to be developed in order for the conditions for enlightenment to be realized. These are ultimate realities (dhammas). James: I still don't see the connection. It seems that `dhammas' as it relates to aspects of the suttas is different than `dhammas' as it relates to the Abhidhamma. Here you aren't really saying that the Bodhipakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma, you are saying that they have corresponding cittas and cetasikas listed in the Abhidhamma- and that isn't the same thing. But really, this is a minor issue that I'm not keenly interested in. Sarah: I think the chapter on `The Factors leading to Enlightenment', (ch 1, Part 1V, The Development of Insight), about p.186 in A.Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", transl by Nina is very clear and you might be interested to take a look. (Abhidhamma.org). James: I will get to this part later, but this note of yours was the condition for me to start reading some of K. Sujin's writings on Abhidhamma.org and it has been quite an eye-opener. I have been reading her praising the benefits of meditation and the purposeful radiation of metta toward others (even how `pouring water' can help to transfer merit to the deceased- a rather Thai influenced ceremony). Maybe Htoo is right when he says that some here misconstrue her teachings and misrepresent her?? Metta, James 45468 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause jonoabb Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >As I love definitions, I would define dhamma in this way. > >There are dhammas and they are dhammas. They are citta, cetasikas, >ruupa and nibbana. > >If something is not from any of these mentioned things, that >something >is not in the castegory of dhamma. > >So as you said 'what is not real are all pannatti'. > > Thanks for this, and I'm very glad to find we agree on what 'pannatti' means. As I see it, a proper understanding of the meaning of 'dhammas' is crucial to the study of the teachings. Without that, insight cannot be developed. The teachings are all about (directly) knowing, and seeing as they truly are, those dhammas that can be known. With dhammas as the object of insight development, their 3 characteristics (of impermanence, suffering and not-self) can become known; without that specific development, the 3 characteristics cannot be directly known, and there can only be a certain level of appreciation of them. Jon 45469 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. jonoabb Hi Hasituppada Thanks for your heartfelt post, and your concern for my well-being as regards development of the path. Just to reassure you on the latter, an interest in the Abhidhamma does not mean a lack of interest in or reliance on the suttas. Rather, since both point to the same truths and principles, an understanding of one supports the understanding of the other. The reason we need the support of the Abhidhamma in coming to understand the suttas is that those to whom the suttas were originally addressed were far more advanced along the path than we today are, and what was obvious to the listeners then has to be spelt out in detail for us now. Now I'd like to express a concern about something you have written. You say that you are happy to rely on teachers, rather than read the suttas and other texts yourself. I would urge you to reconsider this approach. The only way to evaluate what a teacher teaches is to oneself have a working knowledge of the texts. Trying to evaluate what a teacher tells us 'putting it into practice' cannot yield a reliable answer, because our perception is tainted by our own wrong view. Thanks for your many contributions of late. Jon >The question that bothers me is, why did the Buddha teach for 45 >years and made well over 10,000 discourses, found in the Tipitaka, >when he could have explained the Abhidhamma, and taught us about the >present reality ? > >... > >Why did he take all that time making discourses ? Was it just to >mislead us the human beings? He could have easily asked us to follow >the Abhidhamma . If it was to mislead us and take us away from >Abhidhamma, it is the biggest hoax played on us. > >In that case, it is well and good we have found some one who saw >through it and started teaching us the importance of the reality >of the instance, referring to the Suttas as mere scripts rejected >by an editor, as not good except to support the Abhidhamma. > >... > >I express these feelings in the cordial atmosphere of Dhamma >discussion. With my respects to all in this forum. > > 45470 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 13, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Ego-Projection ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The 20 Kinds of False 'Self'-Projection: What are the 20 invalid Theories of an only apparently existing 'self' ? 1: My 'self' is identical with my Body; this physical matter is my 'self'. 2: My 'self' have a Body, this physical matter is owned by my 'self'. 3: My 'self' is hidden inside the Body, included within the form of the Body . 4: This Body form is hidden inside & included within my extensive 'self'. 5: My 'self' is identical with my Feelings; pain, pleasure & neither are my 'self'. 6: My 'self' have Feelings, these sensations are owned by my very 'self'. 7: My 'self' is hidden inside the Feelings, included within any sensation. 8: These Feelings are hidden inside & included within my pervading 'self'. 9: My 'self' is identical with my Perceptions, these experiences are my 'self'. 10: My 'self' have Perceptions, these experiences are owned by my very 'self'. 11: My 'self' is hidden inside these Perceptions, included in all experiences. 12: These Experiences are hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. 13: My 'self' is identical with my mental Constructions, activities are my' self'. 14: My 'self' have Constructions, these activities are owned by my 'self'. 15: My 'self' is hidden inside the Constructions, included in any & all activity. 16: These Constructions are hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. 17: My 'self' is identical with my Consciousness, this bare awareness is my 'self'. 18: My 'self' has a Consciousness, this naked awareness is owned by my 'self'. 19: My 'self' is hidden inside the Consciousness, included in all aware moments. 20: This Consciousness is hidden inside & included inherently within my 'self'. Why are these 20 common assumptions invalid, erroneous, wrong and false ? Because the concept of a Self inherently implies that: 1: It is something constant over time: an identical 'same self'. 2: That it is 'self'-controllable i.e. fully independent & autonomic. 3: That it is pleasant, since if self was not pleasant and the 'Self' really was in power, it would make whatever is self become pleasant. However, neither body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness is constant and the same even for a moment... Therefore they cannot possibly ever qualify as a same 'self' nor be identical with any stable & definable identity...!!! Neither is body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness fully controllable... Neither can they therefore ever meet the requirements of a 'self'...!!! Neither is body, feeling, perception, mental construction, nor consciousness always pleasant... Neither can they therefore ever contain or coincide with any 'self'...!!! Could the assumed ''self'' be a combination of any of 1-20? No so! Why not? If 'self' is not found within any of 1-20, it cannot ever be a collection of them! 1-5-9-13-&-17 are examples of illusory identification with mere passing states... 2-6-10-14-&-18 are examples of fictitious immanence & invented ownership... 3-7-11-15-&-19 are examples of hidden inclusion in something becoming otherwise... 4-8-12-16-&-20 are examples of phony possessing as an invisible acquisition... This doctrine of selflessness, anatta, No self, Not Anyone, Anything, Anywhere is particular to the Buddhas. No other is able to discover, comprehend nor teach this! The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to this frame in anyone nor anywhere ... Source: The Moderate Speeches of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya 106 [ii 106] The Way to the Imperturbable. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45471 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 6:54am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >As I love definitions, I would define dhamma in this way. Thanks for this, and I'm very glad to find we agree on what 'pannatti' means. As I see it, a proper understanding of the meaning of 'dhammas' is crucial to the study of the teachings. Without that, insight cannot be developed. The teachings are all about (directly) knowing, and seeing as they truly are, those dhammas that can be known. With dhammas as the object of insight development, their 3 characteristics (of impermanence, suffering and not-self) can become known; without that specific development, the 3 characteristics cannot be directly known, and there can only be a certain level of appreciation of them. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. I totally agree what you reply. When the understanding of dhamma is not based, how will it be possible to build up higher understanding for direct knowledge. Almost all Buddhists know that there are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. But as these are not their direct knowledge, the knowledge does not stay long in their mind. And as soon as 'mindfulness' leaves them they all think that there are 'nicca, sukha, atta, and subha'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Tell Sarah, to get ready with a camera when I come to Hong Kong. But I do not know when will that be. 45472 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:01am Subject: Letter to James 1 ( Against K. Sujin (Re: khanti and "setting up mindfulness) philofillet Hi James Time for my weekly installment > Phil: (It seems that ignorance is a paramattha dhamma, with its own > characteristics, rather than just being the absence of understanding > that I would have thought it to be.) > > James: You would have to explain more what you mean here. Ignorance > takes many forms and I don't understand how it could be seen as a > paramattha dhamma. The Buddha taught that the mind is luminous and it > is the defilements which block the luminosity of the mind. Ph: Well, the defilements *are* paramattha dhammas, so that fits. I have trouble understanding ignorance as something other than an absence of understanding, but if we think of defilements blocking out inherent luminosity of mind, it sounds like the black, dark curtain that you-know-who speaks of, a substantial something that blocks understanding. Bhikkhu Bodhi says this of ignorance, from Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma: "Its function is non- penetration, or concealment of the real nature of the object. It is manifested as the absence of right understanding or as mental darkness." So that's back to more of an absence of right understanding, non-penetration... We know all akusala cittas are rooted in moha (ignorance), at least, and usually in either dosa or lobha as well. It seems easier to be aware of dosa - as a friend said, it appears as an enemy. Lobha is more insidious. Cittas that are rooted in moha only are accompanied by either restlessness or doubt. So perhaps when we are aware of restlessness or doubt we are a little closer to an opportunity to understand this moha.. perhaps. > Phil: Proliferation, this sea of concepts. > > James: So, if by `sea of concepts' K. Sujin means mental > proliferation, I have no disagreement with her. However, it is a > rather unfortunate metaphor because it implies that the concepts > somehow arise 'outside of oneself', while in actuality the > proliferation of concepts is and feeds the false sense of `self'. Ph: Of course, it's as you say. She doesn't mean otherwise. These concepts only exist as a result of our ignorance of the realites. It's not as if there is a sea of them out there already and we fall into them. As for proliferation, I'm not clear about whether proliferation means extensive mental formation, or whether even when there is just a failure to see realites there is therfore proliferation. Sorry - I'm sleepy and not writing clearly. For example, we know proliferation is something like I described with seeing that rubber ball and spinning off on memories, sadness etc. But is it also papanca if we see a person and take that person as something real (ie fail, as we always do, to get at the realities) but don't go any further than that? No, I guess papanca is about obsessing further on things... > > Phil: Let me give you an example. The other day I walked in a park on > a lovely spring day. I found myself looking at some brightly- coloured > rubber balls > James: Thanks for this wonderful illustration. Wow, you do get carried > away with thoughts! Ph: Don't you do this sort of thing as well? doesn't everyone? >However, the good thing is that you are able to > trace the thoughts and follow them (the sign of a creative writer), > which will hopefully lessen the proliferation in the future. Ph: Well, I'm not sure that has to do with creative writing, but I guess intellectual understanding of the way the mind works might be conditioning this kind of crude awareness of mental processes. > Meditation could help in this regard. Ph: I can see how formal meditation might make us more aware of the way the mind works. I can see that. Emphasis on might. I remember when I was interested in meditation I used the analogy of swimming. Learn to swim in a swimming pool, and it will be so much easier to swim in the open sea. Sitting and watching the way thoughts move could condition seeing the way they move during daily life. I may meditate again some day, if conditions bring it around. > > Phil: But there is danger in sitting down to meditate and not > realizing it's all about lobha, comfort, self-pleasure as well. (Not > that it is for you - but it was for me.) > > James: Then you need to examine what your motivations were at the time > and readjust your practice. Meditation isn't harmful just because you > approached it in a harmful way. Ph: If a meditation teacher appears in my life, and I come to live in a way removed from a great onslaught of sense objects, it could happen. Doesn't look likely. For now, I don't feel I can satisfy the condition the Buddha lays down at the beginning of the satipatthana sutta - "having set aside covetnousness and grief for the world" - until we have done that, as Bhikkhu Bodhi says, it will not be fruitful meditation. I personally feel that people cannot live in the sensation drenched modern world and claim to "set aside coventousness and grief for the world." But if that comes to be, semehow, I may meditate again. > (And no, my meditation isn't about lobha, > comfort, and self-pleasure! You make it sound like watching a porno > movie! LOL! ;-)) Ph: I didn't put that very well, did I? ;) But I do feel that for many people, there is a therapeautic aspect to meditation that doesn't have anything to dow withe developing insight. I have read dhamma talks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu at access to insight. He talks about being "bathed in the breath", using the breath to soothe points of tension and so on. Like the venerable who visited us last year did. Meditating for pleasant feeling, or so it seems to me. It was reading those talks by TB ("40 meditatins?")that made me start to wonder why on earth I was meditatitng, and that was before I came to DSG. But I am not closing my mind to the possibility of meditating again. > > > James: Good. I would just suggest you combine the dhamma with your > writing ability- in that way you will reach more people. And the > dhamma isn't all about rainbows and sunshine, it is also about > confronting conflicts/problems and overcoming them with wisdom. That > can make some good stories! ;-) Ph: It would be fairly easy to write something about using brahma- viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in Japan to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. It would be bad Dhamma, of course. I tend to feel that people get Abhidhamma, or they don't, and no amount of good writing will change that. And if they don't get Abhihdamma, they won't really understand the suttas because they will interpret them too subjectively. Abhidhamma prevents us from doing that, or at least makes it less likely. Just my opinion. I will write my picture book stories, and hope that they will provide people will some comfort and encouragement, but they won't have anything to do with Dhamma. But who knows what will come in the future? > > Phil: And to be honest I'm loing interest in trying to convince you or > anyone else about the benefits of Abhidhamma. To each his own, > according to conditions. > > James: That's fine. We can end this discussion if you would like. It > has already somewhat reached its logical conclusion. Ph: I'll keep writing on Saturdays, for the time being. If either of us wants to stop, let's stop. Metta, Phil 45473 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 14, 2005 3:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/14/05 2:15:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk who was doing walking meditation in the forest and he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking meditation, then the Buddha taught it. ====================== I certainly agree. And if one adds to something like this the fact that formalized (yes, formalized!!) walking medition is a practice that is extant in a variety of Buddhist schools, including Theravada, being practiced, for example, at the NY Buddhist Vihara (Sri Lankan), at Wat Vajiradhamma Padip on Long Island (Thai), and at all the Thai Forest Tradition monasteries and centers, and including Ch'an, for example the Ch'an Center of NY of Sheng-Yen's (Chinese), and Thich Nhat Hanh's various groups (Vietnamese), it seems pretty darn clear to me that walking meditation is basic Dhamma patipatti. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45474 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Andrew, Thanks for your reply message. I am not good at modern thinking. But I will try to discuss your points. You wrote: Dear Htoo I have woken up a little and realised that my (new) question below is not really what I am after. Of course, vitakka-vicara is not always present with right view (panna cetasika) etc. Sorry! (-: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vitakka-vicara is just flexible mental factors. In which way are they flexible? They agree with akusala when they arise with akusala citta. And they agree with kusala when they arise with kusala cittas. So you are right to say that 'vitakka-vicara is not always present with right view (panna cetasika). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: Especially in the West, I understand, we consider humans to be "thinking" beings ("I think, therefore I am" Descartes etc.). As has been noted on DSG before (by Jon and others), a view has arisen in modern Buddhism that thinking is antithetical to sati (mindfulness/awareness). "If only I could stop thinking, I would be more mindful." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand 'stop thinking'. Here 'thinking' has to be defined to speak clearly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: Who hasn't been told by a 'meditation master' that the Buddha instructed us to empty our minds of thoughts so that we can be concentrated and make progress? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know this. Or maybe I understand in the other way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrrew: So I have been reflecting upon the worldling and the relationship between vitakka-vicara and sati. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is good. I am one who wants to talk on such matter of vitakka- vicara-sati-panna and the worldling. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: It feels like we have much vitakka-vicara and little sati and this no doubt leads people to consider that there is some sort of inverse relationship between the 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do you mean 'vitakka-vicara <--> 1/sati' or 'sati <--> 1/ vitakka- vicara'? This is not a general rule. Because there are consciousness that are jhaana cittas or jhaana or absorption which does have vitakka-vicara- sati together. Many kusala cittas do have vitakka-vicara-sati together. So the relationship you proposed is generally not proved. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: This in turn leads some to exercise effort to avoid thinking so that more sati may arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No, this is not the right way. Because all kusala of worldly origin do have vitakka-vicara-sati together. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: But is this inverse relationship a true one or a false one? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think it is false one. If I am wrong please let me know. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: If we accept that right understanding (panna) comes first, is it valid to say that when more panna arises, there is less vitakka- vicara? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No, I do not think so. There are only occasions when there is sati but no 'vitakka-vicara'. These occasions are 3rd rupa jhaana and 4th rupa jhana and all arupa jhana. But all lokuttara cittas do have vitakka-vicara. Without vitakka, no one will attain any magga nana. Vitakka is one part of Noble Eightfold Path. When the Path is broken, magga will not arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: And when more panna arises, more sati arises? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is wrong to say 'more panna' and 'more sati' arise because of 'absence of vitakka-vicara'. But jhana-wise it is said that jhanas are more refined when there is no more vitakka-vicara. It is right. But for seeing nibbana, vitakka is one of the necessary ingredients of Noble Eightfold Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew: Htoo, your clear-thinking may deal with these questions much better than mine. What do you think about this, if I am ask? Many thanks and best wishes Andrew T ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do hope that I communicate with you clearly. If not, please just give me a shout that there still are unresolved matters to discuss. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45475 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (364) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana These 5 jhaana in the names of cittas are 1. viitakka, vicaara, piiti, sukhekaggataa sahitam pathamajjhaana ruupakusala citta 2. vicaara, piiti, sukhekaggataa sahitam dutiyajjhaana ruupakusala citta 3. piiti, sukhekaggataa sahitam tatiyajjhaana ruupakusala citta 4. sukhekaggataa sahitam catutthajjhaana ruupakusala citta 5. upekkhekaggataa sahitam pancamajjhaana ruupakusala citta When these citta arise, there is cetana in each of them and that cetana serves as sahajaata kamma or conaiscent kamma and it becomes ruupa kusala kamma and ready to give rise to ruupavipaka citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45476 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:51am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing Dear Jon and Tep, Your dialogue is interesting. I like especially Jon's words on samma- samadhi. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: Hi Tep Coming in behind the pack as usual ;-)) Thanks for sharing your personal experiences. It takes courage to do that with this lot here ;-)) There is one point in your message that I am in full agreement with, and that is where you explain that at moments of knowing nama and rupa (i.e., of insight) there is also samatha because the mind is concentrated and calm. As you will appreciate, this means that if insight is being developed, so is samma-samadhi, right concentration. I believe this goes part way towards explaining why in the suttas samma-samadhi is often described in terms of the jhanas. By the time insight has been developed to the stage of enlightenment, the accompanying samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana (regardless of whether mundane jhana has previously been developed). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The point that I made above is here. Jon wrote 'samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana'. So it is clear that it is not exactly 'rupavacara rupa jhana'. But it is 'the samadhi which have the strength and nature of jhana'. I used to say on this that 'samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path' is not of rupavacara rupa jhana or not of arupavacara arupa jhana. But one has to emerge from rupa jhana or arupa jhana and then he or she has to see directly on 'NAMA' or 'RUPA' while seeing 'anicca-dukkha- anatta' markers on that nama or rupa. So it is in the vicinity of rupa jhana or arupa jhana. Or it may well be khanika samadhi or it may well be upacara samadhi to work as part of Noblke Eightfold Path as samma-samadhi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree with Jon. The Buddha just preached a continuous actions. Aataapi sampajaano satimaa viharati. Aataapi = who is producing effort, one who has diligent effort Sampajaano = sam_well, pa_detail, jananti_know (clear understanding) Satimaa = mindfulness Viharati = abide There is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The Buddha. But The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events through out the day and night and as long as conscious. This implied inference can be seen in mahasatipatthana sutta that The Buddha preached in 21 sessions. 1. abiding in contemplation of the body 14 sessions 2. abiding in contemplation of feeling 1 session 3. abiding in contemplation of mind 1 session 4. abiding in contemplation of dhamma 5 sessions ------------ 21 sessions Even though The Buddha preached in 21 sessions, these sessions are not separated practices. So it is wrong to assume that there is sitting meditation, walking meditation etc etc. These are just talked to communicate. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon: There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking (or sitting). Do you think it possible that references to the 4 postures could be intended to mean something like 'at any time regardless of the posture', much like we might say in ordinary speech 'day or night', 'whether awake or sleeping', etc? Appreciating this and your other threads. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If someone assumes that 'such acitvity' is genuine practice he will do so when he is practising in that way. But as soon as out of hour, he will be out of dhamma. The activity itself may or may not be the right one. If one wrongly practise then it will be wrong practice rather than genuine practice. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45477 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:04am Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: Dear Htoo Thank you for your very clear answer. I wonder if I could ask you another question on wrong view/right view? The question is: does a mind-moment of wrong view/right view *always* include vitakka-vicara? I hope this question makes sense. Many thanks again for sharing your Dhamma knowledge. Best wishes Andrew T -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Andrew, I will show you examples consciousness. 1. wrong view (ditthi) Lobha citta or lobha mula citta (greedy mind, greediness-rooted mind) There are 8 consciousness or 8 cittas that are lobha cittas or lobha mula cittas or greedy mind. Among them 4 cittas do not have wrong-view or ditthi. But this does not mean these 4 cittas have 'right view'. What is right is that these 4 lobha cittas have 'conceit' or 'maana'. Or they arise even without 'conceit' or 'maana' at all. a) happy-minded without-wrong-view unprompted greedy consciousness b) happy-minded without-wrong-view prompted greedy consciousness c) non-happy-non-distressed without-wrong-view unprompted consciousness d) non-happy-non-distressed without-wrong-view prompted consciousness These 4 consciousness do not have wrong-view. But they also do not have right-view or panna. But all these 4 consciousness do have vitakka- vicara. And other 4 consciousness who have wrong-view also have vitakka- vicara. So in wrong-view there is vitakka-vicara. So wrong-view always includes vitakka-vicara. Wrong-view cannot arise without vitakka-vicara. 2. right view (panna) There are 47 consciousness or 47 cittas that have panna. Some have vitakka-vicara and some do not have vitakka-vicara. But here the problem is to define 'right-view'. Right-view in Noble Eightfold Path is panna. But when a view which is not a ditthi and but not the right one it is hard to say that panna is right view. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45478 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:05am Subject: Dhamma Thread (365) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread talk about citta or consciousness. Talk about cetasika or mental factor or mental accompaniment. Talk about ruupa or matter or material. Talk about nibbana. Talk about pannatti. Talk about arammana or object of attention for mind. Jhanas are frequently discussed in Dhamma Thread posts. At least this repeatition will help deeper and deeper understanding on jhanas and this again will help in practical achievement regarding jhanas. Some talk on jhanas while arammana or object of jhanas are not clearly understood. To break this misty area of jhanas, Dhamma Thread frequently talk on jhanas, jhana cittas, and their related matter. Currently Dhamma Thread are discussing on kamma of different kinds. After discussion on akusala kamma, kusala kamma that happen in kaama bhumis or sensuous planes are discussed. In the recent post, rupavacara kamma are discussed. Kamma are actions. Kamma are movements. Kamma are 'changing the existing conditions'. Kamma are sankharas. Kamma are implementation of idea into thoughts with or without accompanying kaaya-vinatti or gesture and or vacii-vinatti or speech or voice. Rupavacara kamma are nothing but they are changing from 'kamavacara cittas to rupavacara cittas'. When one is in jhana, he or she is acting and is changing kamavacara cittas to rupavacara cittas. Rupa kusala are being committed at mano-kamma-dvara and they are never kaaya kamma or vacii kamma. There are 5 rupavacara kamma as there are 5 rupakusala cittas. Again there are 5 rupakusala cittas as there are 5 rupa jhaanas. Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45479 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:14am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon and James - James: > Tep, to help you out with this point made by Jon. > In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk > who was doing walking meditation in the forest and he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow > monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. > > I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path > back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason > (and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was > doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking > meditation, then the Buddha taught it. T: Thank you much, james for helping me out. I also have my own reply, following this. Jon: > Jon: As to 'walking meditation' itself, I think we need to keep in > mind that there is no mention in the texts of a practice of that name. T: Why is labelling that important? Jon: > There is of course reference to mindfulness *while* walking, > sitting, standing or lying, but there is no singling out of walking > (or sitting). > T: The mindfulness practice while in any body posture is, of course, known as kayanupassana-satipatthana in MN 10, DN 22. Walking and meditate, as well as sitting and meditate were recommended by the Buddha in some suttas like MN 39: Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We shall be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the first watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the middle watch of the night, lying on the right side in the lion's posture, keeping one foot overlapping the other, mindful and aware of the time of waking, we will sleep. In the last watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states.' -- MN 39 Mahaassapurasuttam. The purifying one's mind of obstructing states while walking is "labelled" as "walking meditation", and "while sitting" is known as "formal meditation" . The Buddha only provided a direction without details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. Buddhaghasa also did it his way. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep (and Jon), > 45480 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, I wrote a reply to you yesterday, and hit the send button, but it seems to have disappeared into nothingness. I'm working over this weekend, and feel too tired to reply again right now. Lets talk later. tc Matheesha 45481 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:50am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and all, Our dialogue continues: You wrote: Dear Htoo, Howard and other interested members - I appreciate your attention to the story of my walking-meditation experience, Htoo. Meditation is not hallucination or a pretending-to- be-important kind of activity: it is something sincere people do, and you know that. Since by its very nature it is one person's personal experience, unless you have similar and more advanced meditation skills you don't know if I am telling a true or a false story. Yet, at the minimum, by sharing our meditation experiences we can learn from each other. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) I remember we talked at triplegem about 'snake sees the feet of other snake'_a Myanmar saying. And you talked 'chicken's breast & snake's feet'. Experiencer knows experiencer when they talk in dialogue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Tep: > Question: What do you think of the above experience of mine, and > have you got similar one to share with us? Thanks. > Htoo: > As I am on the same activities I do know what you are describing. > What is important is that there is no discontinuity in naana or > wisdom. > If you really reached higher stages, you will have been printed with > a seal called sotapatti magga or above. Otherwise there always is > discontinuity. > There is no particular time that naama and ruupa are clearly > distinguished. So it starts with the first consciousness till the > last consciousness in a day just before slipping into deep sleep. > DSG will say that 'understanding' is important and will deny special > activities. [unsnipped so as to follow the dialogue clearly_Htoo] Tep: It is true that a "clearly distinguished" naama or ruupa may arise anytime, the event is not random. It is not a Roulette game: it depends on a number of deterministic factors such as meticulousness and continuity as said by Sayadaw U Pandita in the book, "In This Very Life". Like Niana said, sati and viriya can be accumulated and these are supportive conditions. The "atapi sampajjano satima" person will achieve samadhi. Tep: Now may I ask you to continue the discussion of gacchanto vaa 'gacchaamii' ti pajaanaati to the next two body postures? : Thito vaa 'thitomhii' ti pajaanaati, While he is standing, he knows properly: "I am standing"; nisinno vaa 'nisinnomhii' ti pajaanaati, .. while he is sitting, he knows properly: "I am sitting".. [From Mahaasatipatthaana Suttam, Vipassana Research Institute.] It is relatively easy to know properly ( or know in detail, as you put it) while you are walking. But when you are standing or sitting still, it is not easy to have sati and sampajjanna in the body posture for a long time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha preached by session after session and altogether there are 21 sessions. But these are actually not a separate one when the practitioner goes along the day. So in 'iriya patha pabba' or 'contemplating on body position session' there are 4 positions. 1. gacchanto vaa gachaamii'ti pajaanaati 2. thito vaa thitomhii'ti pajaanaati 3. nissinno vaa nissinomhii'ti pajaanaati gacchanto vaa_when going gacchaami_as going, iti_such pajaanaati_know in detail thito vaa_when standing thitomhi_stand, iti_as/such nissino vaa_when sitting nissinomhi_sit, iti_as/such Actually all these are not just indicating to know 'the position'. What The Buddha wanted us to know is that ---> When we are walking we will have to know all the details of our action of walking. There we will not see any 'self' walking. But we will just see ruupa. And if advanced, we will also see naama. So when we are walking we will have to know all the details of our walking like 1. lightness of the foot 2. raising up of the foot 3. swinging of the foot 4. movement of the leg 5. heaviness of the leg 6. landing of the heel 7. swing of the body 8. standing heavily on the heel and so on. As soon as a wish to stand arises, this has to be instantaneously known and then as soon as stand, it is noted that we stand. This is 'when we stand we know that we stand in detail'. thito vaa thitomhii'ti pajaanaati. When a wish to sit arises, this also has to be noted as it arises. There we will know 1. heaviness of the whole body as the gravity draws when we start to sit 2. bending of the knees 3. pressing on the bottom 4. folding of the legs 5. resting of the knees on feet 6. straightening of the body This is 'when we sit we know that we sit'. Nissinno vaa nisinnomhii'ti pajaanaati. Again, say we go to the bed and stand at the bed side and then sit down on the bed and lie down on the bed, there are 4 postures. All actions have to be known in details. Is this possible? This will depend on the practice and perfection. The Buddha did not just stick to any sitting or standing or walking or lying. In between when there arise other thoughts these also have to be noted. It is not right to say standing meditation. When standing there may also arise other thoughts and they will have to be noted accordingly as they arise. Examples are there may arise 'noice' 'voice'. We do not have any control over any of ruupa or naama. When we are meditating we may be walking, may be standing, may be sitting, and may be lying down. But there may also arise 'sounds'. We may or may not hear them. But as soon as hear this means that 'sotavinnana cittas have arisen' and we cannot control them. Just to note 'hear' 'hear' 'hear'. And then move back to the primary object of meditation whatever it is. In short, we just have to know ruupa and naama. Not of any other things. There are some sessions that deal with pannatti. But these again have to do with seeing of nama and ruupa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: The mind will get agitated or become restless, because it is the nature of untrained minds to behave like that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As soon as 'the wild mind' is locked, there arises agitation. Because it is the habit of mind to wander around and it will frequently visit where it thinks is its god object of awareness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep: It is a demonstration of the uddhacca hindrance in action. The walking meditation, which also incorporates standing meditation, is a good practice to overcome the hindrances such as uddhacca (agitation) and tina-middha(stiffness and torpor). Once you can rid the mind of all 5 hindrances, you will attain the 1st jhana citta. Am I correct in making such a conclusion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For students, there is no way to attain ruupa jhaana while walking. But for advanced practitioner who has already attained jhana up to 8 jhana and attains abhinna it is possible that he stay in jhana while walking. There are 2 possible alternatives. 1st the walking is the output of abhinna. This means that 'walking manifests as cittaja ruupa or mind-generated gesture of abhinna jhaana. 2nd the walking is done and jhaana is not a stable one but on and off and short-live jhaana only. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45482 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:51am Subject: Dhamma Thread (366) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Ruupa jhaanas ,in the simplest term, are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana Among them, first and foremost, the first jhaana will be discussed. There are meditations or kammatthanas or kammatthana bhavanaa that can give rise to the first jhaana. Kammatthaana = kamma + tthaana Kamma here means 'bhaavanaa kusala kamma' or 'actions that do the cultivation or breeding or growing of wholesome mind'. And thaana means 'place'. So kammatthaana means 'the place where bhavanaa lives or dwells or depends or resides'. So kammatthaana is not just simple meditation. Meditation may or may not cover all the meanings of kammatthaana. Bhaavana is a form of kusala kamma or wholesome actions that are completely confined to mental actions or mano-kamma or mano-sankhaara. There are 40 kinds of kammatthaana bhavanaa. Among them, 26 kammatthaana can give rise to the first jhaana. To enumerate they are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaana or kasina (wholeness) meditation 2. 10 asubha kammatthaana or meditation on dead bodies 3. 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana or 4 higher-living meditation 4. 1 kaayagataasati kammatthaana or body-parts meditation 5. 1 aanaapaanassati kammatthaana or breathing meditation There are 4 aruppa kammatthaanas or non-material meditation. They can only be developed on the ground of 5th(4th) jhaana. So they are not for 1st jhaana. So there are 30 kammatthana that can give rise to appanaa bhavanaa or jhana but only 26 kammatthaanas can give rise to 1st jhana. What is 1st jhaana? May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45483 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 9:02am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. htootintnaing S: But then at the end you say; -------------------------------------------------- Htoo: > PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we > go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Sukin, you said 'But then at the end you say;'. What is wrong with my PS:? -------------------------------------------------- --------------------- S: So today I would like to talk about something I once mentioned to you, last year I think, namely, "What a beginner needs to hear". But I think I will go into this later, my children are about to come down and the weekend is usually no time to write mails. Just enough time maybe for a short comment to this part of your post; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Take time and try to control 'the steering wheel'. Otherwise you will be liberated from Sukin-hood. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45484 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 9:06am Subject: Dhamma Thread (367) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa jhaana or 5 material absorptive states. They are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana Among them 1st jhaana is the ground for all ruupa jhanas. Understanding is very important in jhana matter. When one cannot understand 1st jhana, will it be possible to achieve 1st jhana. What is 1st jhaana? Before talking on 1st jhana, first jhaana needs to be defined. Jhana is 'a mental state' when all mind-components or all mental bodies including citta or mind are totally absorbed into the object of attention and this absorption acts as mental impulsion or javana and there is no interruption between menatl states. 1st jhaana is a jhana that are composed of jhana citta with 5 main jhana factors or jhana-accompaniments along with other mental factors or cetasikas. In 1st jhana there are 35 cetasikas that accompany that 1st jhana citta. But when talking on jhana matter, only jhana-factors cetasikas are talked. There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45485 From: connie Date: Sat May 14, 2005 9:37am Subject: ayoniso manasikaaro nichiconn Hi, Phil. sorry i don't remember exactly what you said, but: << The Dispeller of Delusion: 2466. AYONISO MANASIKAARO <373.15> ("unwise bringing to mind") is bringing to mind of what is not the means. ANICCE NICCA.M <373.16> ("concerning the impermanent as permanent"): which occurs concerning an object which is only is only impermanent thus: 'This is permanent.' So also with DUKKHE SUKHA.M ("concerning the painful as pleasant") and so on. 2467. SACCAVIPPA.TIKUULENA VAA <373.18> ("or by what is contrary to truth") by what is not in conformity with the four Truths. CITTASSA AAVA.T.TANAA <373.19. ("advertence of the mind"), etc. are all synonyms for adverting (aavajjanaa); as adverting causes the life-continuum consciousness to advert (aava.t.teti), it is "advertence of the mind". "It continues to cause it to advert" (anu anu aava.t.teti) is ANVAAVA.T.TANAA ("continued advertence"). "It inclines (aabhu~njati), hence it is AABHOGO ("inclination"). "It brings (samannaaharati) from the object of the life-continuum to another object", hence it is SAMANNAAHARAARO ("bringing to bear"). "It makes that the object in the mind as it arises following upon itself", hence it is MANASIKAARO <373.20> ("bringing to mind"); "it makes" means "it places". AYA.M VUCCATI ("this is called"): this bringing to mind which is not the means which has the characteristic of errant bringing to mind is called "unwise bringing to mind". By means of it a person is unable to advert properly to the Truths of suffering, etc. >> I'd think Howard would enjoy reading that kind of stuff. What kind of Disney rides do you think he went on? Jon has never given me the creeps. I could've done without yours and James' bathroom windows, but thanks anyway. Not that it's wrong view, I just didn't need to go there. But that's samphappalaapa. ( A couple other cool desert island book things, just because: << "... the kamma of the followers who assert what is not the Law is greatly reprehensible. " dsp v2 pp175-6. 2394. Herein, true pride is cast out by the path of arahatship; what is not true pride is cast out by the path of Stream Entry. >> peace, connie 45486 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:13am Subject: 1st jhaana in metta samatha bhavanaa & implications htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the practitioner is absorbed into a state of 1st jhana he is said to be developing 1st jhaana. In 1st jhaana which originated from metta brahmavihaara the cittas are all 1st jhaana cittas or rupavacara rupakusala 1st jhaana cittas. All these cittas have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base or they all have to base on hadaya vatthu. Their object is just one. That is any of all these 1st jhaana cittas takes the same object, which is just one. That single object is 'the idea of unlimited beings' and this is pannatti or just names. The way of application of the mind to this object is that by developing loving-kindness wishes. There are cittas or consciousness, arammana or object, vatthu or base or ground. When these cittas arise they are already accompanied by their accompaniment mental factors. These mental factors or mental accompaniments are 55 in number in case of all 1st jhaana cittas. These 55 mental factors are a) 7 universal mental factors 1. contact or phassa (contact of 1st jhana citta with unlimited being) 2. feeling or vedana (somanassa vedana or mental pleasure) 3. volition or cetana (encouragement to take the object unlimited satta) 4. perception or sanna (recognition of unlimited beings) 5. one-pointedness or ekaggata (fixity to unlimited being) 6. mental life or jivitindriya (mental supporter) 7. attention or manasikaara (attention to unlimited beings) b) 6 particular mental factors 1. initial application or vitakka (application of the mind to unlimited beings) 2. sustained application or vicaara( sustension of the mind to unlimited beings) 3. effort or viriya (energy to exert mentally to unlimited being) 4. joy or piiti (suffused joy to all other mental factors and citta) 5. zeal or wish or chanda (enthusiasm to take unlimited beings) 6. decision or adhimokkha (clear decision to take unlimited beings as an object) c) 19 general beautiful mental factors 1. confidence or sadda 1. confidence or sadda 2. mindfulness or sati 2. balancer or tatramajjhattata 3. shame or hiri 3. non-attachment or alobha 4. fear or ottappa 4. non-aversion or adosa 5. mind-tranquility 5. mental-tranquility or citta-passaddhi or kaayapassaddhi 6. mind-lightness 6. mental-lightness or citta-lahutaa or kaaya-lahutaa 7. mind-mouldability 7. mental-mouldability or citta-mudutaa or kaaya-mudutaa 8. mind-workability 8. mental-workability or citta-kammannataa or kaaya-kammannataa 9. mind-proficiency 9. mental-proficiency or citta-pagunnataa or kaaya-pagunnataa 10.mind-uprightness 10.mental-uprightness or cittaujukataa or kaayujukataa d) special beautiful mental factor 1. pannindria cetasika or panna cetasika So there are 1. 7 universal mental factors 2. 6 particular mental factors 3.19 general beautiful mental factors 4. 1 special beautiful mental factors --- 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas Karuna and mudita do not arise with metta jhaana. 3 virati cetasikas do not arise with metta jhaana. So in 1st jhaana of metta-brahmavihaara or loving- kindness-pure-living there are 1. 1st jhana citta ( rupaavacara ruupakusala 1st jhaana cittas) 2. 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas 3. 1 hadaya ruupa or hadaya vatthu 4. 0 pannatti ( this is illusionary object and designated as 0) The pannatti here is 'the idea of beings of unlimited characterization (deared, hated, non-deared-non-hated) and unlimited number of 1 to infinity) This is the picture of 1st jhaana with metta brahmavihaara. Among 33 cetasikas or 33 mental factors there are 5 special cetasikas and they are designated as jhaana factors as they help to develop 1st jhaana. They are vitakka or initial-application, vicaara or sustained- application, piiti or 'suffused-joy', sukha or 'physical and mental undistressedness or pleasure', and ekaggataa or one-pointedness or 'fixity to object'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45487 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:27am Subject: Pure-Living Metta, Karuna, Mudita, Upekkha htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can be achieved by metta. It can also be atained through the practice of unlimited compassion or karuna brahmavihaara. It is karuna kammatthaana. The implications are almost the same as in case of metta brahmavihaara but the difference is that 'the mental exertion is applied with the idea of wishing easing of beings. When we say 'easing' there always are 'uneasing load on beings'. So karuna generally goes to all those who are in needs of help in certain form. Usually beings of attention in karuna kammatthaana are 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble'. This is the difference between karuna and mudita. When karuna goes to 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble', muditaa goes to 'sukhita sattas' or 'beings in prosperity'. That is why karuna and mudita cannot arise together because the objects are totally different that is one is 'in trouble' while another is 'in prosperity'. Unlike karuna and mudita, metta can go to both kinds of beings. That is both beings in trouble and beings in prosperity. By the same token, upekkha-brahmavihaara can also go to both kinds of beings. Actually metta and upekkha can go to any kind of beings whether they are in trouble or not, whether they are in prosperity or not and whatever they are beheaving. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45488 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:32am Subject: Dhamma Thread (368) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 ruupa jhaana or 5 material absorptive states. They are 1. 1st ruupa jhaana 2. 2nd ruupa jhaana 3. 3rd ruupa jhaana 4. 4th ruupa jhaana 5. 5th ruupa jhaana Among them 1st jhaana is the ground for all ruupa jhanas. There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Actually each of these 5 jhana factors has been explained in the earlier posts of Dhamma Thread. The above 5 jhana factors are not just simple cetasikas. They are jhana factors. So vitakka has to be jhana-vitakka and not of other vitakkas. Vitakka is normally translated as 'thinking' or 'initial thinking' or 'initial thought'. There are many other vitakkas apart from jhana- vitakka. Vitakka is 'application of the mind to a specific object'. While the mind (citta) is applied to a specific object, vitakka also applies itself to that object and other accompanying cetasikas are all applied to that specific very object. This is the job of vitakka. Vitakka is 'initial application'. 'Initial' is added to differentiate vitakka from vicara, another cetasika which also applies the mind to the specific object. But the way 'vicaara' applies to the object and the way 'vitakka applies to the object' are not the same. If they are the same, there cannot be 2 applications as cetasikas. Vicaara has the meaning of 'sustained'. Vicaara means 'review' 'repeated visit to the same object' or something like that. Vicaara always follows or accompanies vitakka. That is when there is vitakka there always is vicaara. But when there is vicaara they may or may not be vitakka. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45489 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:20pm Subject: Inquiry for opinions kelvin_lwin Hi All, In light of all the recent or old discussion I thought to ask how we should read or interpret these suttas. Or it doesn't matter as they are for great disciples and we shouldn't emulate them. Thanks in advance. - Kel http://www.metta.lk/english/anguttara-select4.doc 124. Mahamogallana Dozing [Sattaka Nipâtha (Avyâkata Vagga) Pacâlayamâno] At one time the Blessed One was living in the Bhagga country in the Bhesakalâ forest among the Sunsumâra rocks. Venerable Mahâmoggallâna was living in the Kallawâlamutta village in the Magadha country. Then the Blessed One with his purified heavenly eye saw venerable Mahâmoggallâana dozing in a seated position and just as a strong man would stretch his bent arm or bend his stretched arm he disappeared from the dear park in the Bhesakalâ forest and appeared before venerable Mahâmoggallâna in Magadha. The Blessed One sat on the seat prepared, and asked "Moggallâna, were you dozing?" "Yes, venerable sir." Then Moggallâna, in whatever perception you were abiding when you were overcome by that drowsiness , should not be attended to, it should be abandoned, then there is a possibility, for that drowsiness to vanish. If that drowsiness does not vanish when so doing, you should call to mind and discursively think about the Teaching, then too there is a possibility for that drowsiness to vanish. If then too that drowsines does not vanish you should recite the Teaching as heard and mastered by you. If then too the drowsiness does not vanish, you should pull both ear lobes and stroke the body with both hands. Then too there is a possibility for that drowsiness to vanish. If then too the drowsiness does not vanish, you should rise from your seat wash your eyes, look in the directions, look at the constellation. Thus too there is a possibility for that drowsiness to vanish If yet the drowsiness is there, you should attend to the perception of light, intend the perception of day, as the day so the night. Thus the mind should be uncovered and unenveloped. There is a possibility when doing so too for that drowsiness to vanish. If it does not vanish then too, you should intend a walk perceiving the beginning and the end, with the mind turned inwards and the mental faculties well controlled. If that too does not help you should lie down turning to your right placing one foot over the other to make the lion's posture(1) attending to the perception of rising mindful and aware. When awake should hurriedly get up, thinking I will not get yoked to the pleasure of sleep. O! Moggallâna, you should train thus too. I will not approach families with a puffed up self . In families there are cerimonial obligations, at such times people do not attend to bhikkhus. Then it occurs to the bhikkhu, who has split me and this family, now these people are angry with me. Then the bhikkhu is discontented.The discontented are restless, the restless are not controlled. The uncontrolled are far from concentration.(3) O! Moggallâna, I do not appreciate all association nor do I depreciate all association. The association of householders and bhikkhus, I do not appreciate. I appreciate the association of dwellings with less noise, suitable for the seclusion of humans." When this was said, venerable Mahâmoggallâna said, "Venerable sir, how is the bhikkhu finnally established, come to the end of the yoke, end of the holy life and the final end, released by the destruction of craving becomes the chief among gods and men.? Here Moggallâna, the bhikkhu hears that all things are not suitable to cling to, with that intention he learns all things accurately, whatever feelings he feels, pleasant, unpleasant or neither unpleasant nor pleasant, abides reflecting impermanence, dispassion and cessation in them. He gives them up, does not cling to anything in the world. Not clinging, not worried, is by himself extinguished. Birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, come to the final end is released by the destruction of craving and becomes the chief among gods and men" ********* 129. Ven Nanda's success in the Holy Life [Atthaka Nipâtha (Mettâ Vagga) Nanda] "O! bhikkhus, saying it rightly Nanda is a powerful, very pleasing, and a passionate clansman. His success in the holy life was on account of the controlled mental faculties, knowing the right amount to partake of food, being yoked to wakefulness, and the endowment of mindful awareness. Bhikkhus, this is Nanda's control of the mental faculties. If he wanted to look in any of the directions, he would recall everything to mind and would consider, will covetousness, displeasure and demeritorious things stream into my mind, if I look in this direction, and then he would look in that direction. Bhikkhus, this was Nanda's knowing the right amount to partake of food. Nanda would partake of food reflecting, it is not for play, not for intoxication, not for attraction and beauty, to support this body, devoid of passion for tastes as a help for the holy life. By this I will destroy the earlier feelings and not give rise to new feelings, so that it would be faultless for my pleasant abiding . Bhikkhus, Nanda was yoked to wakefulness thus, during the day Nanda cleans the mind of obstructing things when walking and sitting. In the first watch of the night too he cleans the mind of obstructing things when walking and sitting. During the middle watch of the night, he lies down turning to his right keeping one foot over the other to make the lion's posture mindful and aware of the perception of rising. In the last watch of the night he gets up and cleans the mind of obstructing things when standing and sitting. Bhikkhus, this was Nanda's mindful awareness. To Nanda knowing feelings arise, persist and fade. Knowing perceptions arise, persist and fade. Knowing thoughts arise, persist and fade. O! bhikkhus, it was on account of Nanda's control of the mental faculties, knowing the right amount to eat, being yoked to wakefulness and being endowed with mindful awareness, that it was possible to succeed in the holy life. 45490 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 0:30pm Subject: Letter to James 1 (Not against K. Sujin anymore ;-) buddhatrue Hi Phil, Phil: Time for my weekly installment James: ;-)) Nice to see it! Phil: So perhaps when we are aware of restlessness or doubt we are a little closer to an opportunity to understand this moha.. perhaps. James: Here I see a little uncertainty about what you need to be aware of; don't feel bad, I am in the same boat. The defilements are so tricky and take so many forms that it is difficult to determine the best way to be aware of them. Perhaps, just perhaps, it is an individual thing. In this post, I want to quote some from K. Sujin to raise some points. K. Sujin has said, "For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know." http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri1.html I agree with this, but I am left uncertain as to how someone is to know "what kusala is". How is this to be done? Surely, memorizing the terms of the Abhidhamma isn't going to do it. There must be something more. What do you think K. Sujin means here? Phil: As for proliferation, I'm not clear about whether proliferation means extensive mental formation, or whether even when there is just a failure to see realites there is therfore proliferation. Sorry - I'm sleepy and not writing clearly. James: I think you are writing very clearly. This is the question I raised before and you said that concepts weren't the problem, just proliferation was the problem. This corresponds to what the Buddha taught. If you are changing your position, let me know. Really, I am trying to figure out what K. Sujin really teaches and what people seem to think she teaches. If she wrote more, rather than just spoke, people could be clearer on her positions. After all, this is not a world of careful listeners. Phil: Don't you do this sort of thing as well? doesn't everyone? James: Yeah, I suffer from mental proliferation as well, of course. I just found yours to be very dynamic and reminiscent of the stream-of-consciousness writers of the beat generation, like Alan Ginsberg and Jack Kerouac. My mental proliferations are not quite so dynamic. Phil: I may meditate again some day, if conditions bring it around. James: Well, this is what K. Sujin had to say about meditation, "Thus, when someone has accumulated the inclination and habit to perform deeds of generosity, and he reflects time and again on his deeds, the cittas will be more and more peaceful, pure and steadfast in kusala. Some people can have steadfastness in kusala and calm to the degree of access-concentration [6. This is the development of tranquil meditation, samatha, with recollection of generosity (caagaanusati) as meditation subject [7." So, according to K. Sujin, meditation is the steadfastness of kusala. I would agree with that. What's wrong with practicing that? Phil: If a meditation teacher appears in my life, and I come to live in a way removed from a great onslaught of sense objects, it could happen. Doesn't look likely. For now, I don't feel I can satisfy the condition the Buddha lays down at the beginning of the satipatthana sutta - "having set aside covetnousness and grief for the world" - until we have done that, as Bhikkhu Bodhi says, it will not be fruitful meditation. I personally feel that people cannot live in the sensation drenched modern world and claim to "set aside coventousness and grief for the world." But if that comes to be, semehow, I may meditate again. James: This is a momentary setting aside of covetousness and grief for the world, it doesn't have to be ongoing. Only an arahant has completely and permanently set aside covetousness and grief for the world. The point is to not meditate and still have your mind into worldly matters, that isn't meditation. One must withdraw from thoughts of the world to meditate properly. Surely you can do this? Sometimes? Phil: Meditating for pleasant feeling, or so it seems to me. It was reading those talks by TB ("40 meditatins?")that made me start to wonder why on earth I was meditatitng, and that was before I came to DSG. But I am not closing my mind to the possibility of meditating again. James: It is good that you haven't closed your mind to the possibility of meditation practice again. Phil, there are all sorts of meditation teachers who are teaching the wrong methods. They are teaching what people want to hear: a way to feel good fast. Even at my Buddhist temple, where I helped to lead meditation retreats, there was a special guest monk from Thailand who was supposed to be an excellent meditation teacher because he was very `famous'. Some temple disciples came to meet this monk and he led us all in a Chakra Meditation! I was very appalled. Then he actually started walking around us, sitting on the floor, and waving his hands around our bodies to `give us energy and take away pain'. I just couldn't believe it! I refused to participate in any meditation retreats that he led and I wasn't quiet as to why. I told everyone who would listen that he was not teaching proper meditation as taught by the Buddha. The vice-abbot, a very nice and wise monk, said to me jokingly, "What's the matter? Didn't you get the energy? He's like a battery; he will give you energy!" LOL! Phil: It would be fairly easy to write something about using brahma-viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in Japan to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional use of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of extending mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa to others; he can extend his goodwill to someone else and wish for his happiness. We can find out by a persons actions and words whether his citta has such degree of mettaa that he can extend it to someone else." Now, if the Brahma-Viharas are good enough for K. Sujin, why aren't they good enough for you? Phil: I'll keep writing on Saturdays, for the time being. If either of us wants to stop, let's stop. James: No, I don't want to stop now. I am looking forward to your response. Metta, James 45491 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 2:33pm Subject: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Phil: It would be fairly easy to write something about using > brahma-viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in Japan > to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. > > James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional use > of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of extending > mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa > to others; he can extend his goodwill to someone else and wish for his > happiness. We can find out by a persons actions and words whether his > citta has such degree of mettaa that he can extend it to someone > else." Now, if the Brahma-Viharas are good enough for K. Sujin, why > aren't they good enough for you? Hello James, all, One of the first long threads I was involved in when I joined dsg some years ago concerned Metta - it was explained to me, by senior members of this list, that it could not be radiated to oneself. This left me with feeling, after long and torturous discussion, that metta was just a quality in a person conditioning them to act with goodwill, and in a friendly way, towards all beings in the world - but was not ever to be directed towards oneself. I also gained the impression, contrary to general usage, that it was not a 'psychic' force of any sort, and one couldn't, for example, 'send' metta to someone in sickness or trouble to help them feel better or change their conditions. I am surprised to read this quote from K. Sujin - could you give me the reference so I can read more around it myself please? It sounds very much from what you quote that she is agreeing with 'radiating metta' to influence other beings ... metta and peace, Chris 45492 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 3:53pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions buddhistmedi... Hi Kel (and other interested DSG members) - Without making my message too long, I'd like to answer your question by considering only the second sutta (Ven. Nada's Holy-life practice). In order to get the most benefit from a sutta like this, one should read it with a strong saddha and with the following questions in mind: 1) How did Ven. Nada follow Lord Buddha's Teachings to become such a great monk in his life? 2) Are there some useful guidelines I can adopt in my own practice? With this kind of "right attitude" the reader will not waste time finding fault with the translator's choice of words (e.g. control of the mental faculties; endowment of mindful awareness, etc.), or become confused about the way of the Holy-life-practice (e.g. moderate amount of food to take; devotion to wakefulness; formal walking and sitting meditation at selected times of the night, and so on). With such appropriate saddha and an unconfused mind imbued with deep respect for the Buddha, the suttas and the ariya savaka's holy life, the reader will see the right way to practice (patipada) for success in the Dhamma (with the Holy-life in mind) without any question. [The full instruction may be found also in MN39, Mahaassapura Sutta and MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta.] Whether anyone can or want to practice like this is , of course, another question. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi All, > > In light of all the recent or old discussion I thought to ask how > we should read or interpret these suttas. Or it doesn't matter as > they are for great disciples and we shouldn't emulate them. Thanks > in advance. > > - Kel > 45493 From: "Philip" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 4:12pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi James, Christine, and all > > Phil: It would be fairly easy to write something about using > > brahma-viharas intentionally, and it would help people here in > Japan > > to feel better on the surface. But it wouldn't be good Dhamma. > > > > James: Well, here's what K. Sujin had to say about the intentional > use > > of the brahma-viharas, "Did you ever hear the expression of > extending > > mettaa?... When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend > mettaa > > to others; Ph: Metta is powerful, definitely. When someone's citta *is* metta, it is powerful. And the Buddha taught it - we know that from the metta sutta. But for me it's very obvious that metta doesn't arise because we want it to. I used to sit and think about metta and believe that it was metta. It was just more of that self-pleasuring I mentionned before! The metta sutta is another sutta that is describing a person whose citta stream is in a very refined condition. It's a very different thing when modern-world folk sit down when they are feeling agitated and think they are generating metta, in my opinion.I guess the same thing goes for intentionally experiencing sati, though I'm not quite as sure as that. Once we've experienced the way metta wells up at unexpected moments, and have appreciated how beautiful and selfless it is, how can we believe that we can sit down and generate it? That's what I don't get. I can't imagine Kh Sujin believes in generating metta when it isn't there, but I don't know what she thinks about the conditioning power of metta when it *is* there. I want to read her online book but I haven't been able to find it when I google it. I always get the "Metta" salutation that opens Deeds of Merit. Could someone link me to it, please? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil p.s for want of a better sign-off, I keep writing "metta" - and sometimes there is metta when I write it. 45494 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 4:55pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions matheesha333 Hi Kel, I wonder which bits of these suttas cause the confusion? I can note a few places but it would be helpful if you could tell us. Also note that these intstructions are for monks. Like Tep mentioned we should be careful of how we can adopt these practices without making things too difficult for ourselves -and subsequently getting tired of the practice and giving it up all together. That would be unskilful. metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Kel (and other interested DSG members) - > > Without making my message too long, I'd like to answer your question > by considering only the second sutta (Ven. Nada's Holy-life practice). > > In order to get the most benefit from a sutta like this, one should read it > with a strong saddha and with the following questions in mind: > > 1) How did Ven. Nada follow Lord Buddha's Teachings to become > such a great monk in his life? > 2) Are there some useful guidelines I can adopt in my own practice? > > With this kind of "right attitude" the reader will not waste time finding > fault with the translator's choice of words (e.g. control of the mental > faculties; endowment of mindful awareness, etc.), or become confused > about the way of the Holy-life-practice (e.g. moderate amount of food to > take; devotion to wakefulness; formal walking and sitting meditation at > selected times of the night, and so on). With such appropriate saddha > and an unconfused mind imbued with deep respect for the Buddha, the > suttas and the ariya savaka's holy life, the reader will see the right way > to practice (patipada) for success in the Dhamma (with the Holy- life in > mind) without any question. [The full instruction may be found also in > MN39, Mahaassapura Sutta and MN53: Sekha-patipada Sutta.] > > Whether anyone can or want to practice like this is , of course, another > question. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ===== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > In light of all the recent or old discussion I thought to ask how > > we should read or interpret these suttas. Or it doesn't matter as > > they are for great disciples and we shouldn't emulate them. Thanks > > in advance. > > > > - Kel > > 45495 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions kelvin_lwin Hi Tep, > With this kind of "right attitude" the reader will not waste time finding > fault with the translator's choice of words (e.g. control of the mental > faculties; endowment of mindful awareness, etc.), or become confused > about the way of the Holy-life-practice (e.g. moderate amount of food to > take; devotion to wakefulness; formal walking and sitting meditation at > selected times of the night, and so on). I didn't really have a problem with the translation, it is mostly as I understand the way to practice. I also noticed the particular positions through different phases of the night in reference to your other threads. So I also wonder how this plays in with "conditions" arguments. > Whether anyone can or want to practice like this is , of course, another > question. I've always thought the path is simple enough, application of it is the hard part. - kel 45496 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 5:49pm Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions kelvin_lwin Hi Matheesha, > I wonder which bits of these suttas cause the confusion? I can note > a few places but it would be helpful if you could tell us. The way I read the first sutta, Buddha basically gave a list of things to try in order to overcome thina-middha. With successively more effort and seemingly unnatural things like "pulling both ear lobes". Isn't it better to just understand the reality as it is and nothing wrong with falling asleep? Getting up to walk to shake sleepiness, is that motivated by sense of self or suble lobha? Also being choosy about a particular place of practice, "dwellings with less noise, suitable for the seclusion of humans". But maybe instructions are for samatha only? > making things too difficult for ourselves -and subsequently getting > tired of the practice and giving it up all together. That would be > unskilful. Easy mistake for unskilled people to make I guess. - kel 45497 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:43pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: ----------- > The Buddha only provided a direction without details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. Buddhaghasa also did it his way. ----------- I agree that meditation teachers have added what you call details. However, Buddhaghosa should not be seen as a teacher of formal meditation. Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. There was never any intention that we should concentrate on walking in order to know rupa. Ken H 45498 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:55pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] kenhowardau Hello James and Howard, -------------------- James: > > I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). ---------------------- KH: Monks need exercise just like everybody else does. Even a blind monk needs to get up and walk about. ---------------------------- James: > > One can only assume that he was doing `walking meditation'. ----------------------------- KH: While he was walking, he was practising right mindfulness (bhavana, meditation), just as he did while in any of the other three postures. And it didn't matter what activity he was performing while in those postures: he practised satipatthana while eating, talking, answering calls of nature - anything (except sleeping). ----------------------------------------------------- James: > If that blind monk was doing walking meditation, then the Buddha taught it. ----------------------------------------------------- KH: The Buddha taught a practice that can be performed at any time, in any posture and during any activity. That doesn't mean he taught walking - any more than it means he taught eating, talking or answering the calls of nature. --------------------------- Howard: > I certainly agree. And if one adds to something like this the fact that formalized (yes, formalized!!) walking medition is a practice that is extant in a variety of Buddhist schools, including Theravada, being practiced, for example, at the NY Buddhist Vihara (Sri Lankan), at Wat Vajiradhamma Padip on Long Island (Thai), and at all the Thai Forest Tradition monasteries and centers, and including Ch'an, for example the Ch'an Center of NY of Sheng-Yen's (Chinese), and Thich Nhat Hanh's various groups (Vietnamese), it seems pretty darn clear to me that walking meditation is basic Dhamma patipatti. ----------------------------- KH: There are millions of monks and laypeople who practise many things that the Buddha never taught and who swear that he did teach them. Fortunately, we still have the ancient records that show what he did teach. In some cases, they even say what he didn't teach - e.g., he didn't teach "walking" in the conventional sense of the word. Ken H 45499 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:33pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] christine_fo... Hello KenH, I've been enjoying your posts lately - hoping all the activity on-list means you have blunted your dhamma sword :-) Looking forward to seeing you, Andrew T, and Steve this weekend. Eight Precepts :-) Hmmm ..... "Chocolate is not a medicine, chocolate is not a medicine" metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hello James and Howard, > > -------------------- > James: > > I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk > walking a path back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for > a specific reason (and it isn't to travel anywhere). > ---------------------- > > KH: Monks need exercise just like everybody else does. Even a blind > monk needs to get up and walk about. > > 45500 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:37pm Subject: Re: Papanca and self-view corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: No, this is not the right way. Because all kusala of worldly > origin do have vitakka-vicara-sati together. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > But is this inverse relationship a true one or a false one? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: I think it is false one. If I am wrong please let me know. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > If we accept that right understanding (panna) comes first, is it > valid to say that when more panna arises, there is less vitakka- > vicara? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: No, I do not think so. There are only occasions when there is > sati but no 'vitakka-vicara'. These occasions are 3rd rupa jhaana and > 4th rupa jhana and all arupa jhana. But all lokuttara cittas do have > vitakka-vicara. Without vitakka, no one will attain any magga nana. > > Vitakka is one part of Noble Eightfold Path. When the Path is broken, > magga will not arise. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > And when more panna arises, more sati arises? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > It is wrong to say 'more panna' and 'more sati' arise because > of 'absence of vitakka-vicara'. But jhana-wise it is said that jhanas > are more refined when there is no more vitakka-vicara. It is right. > But for seeing nibbana, vitakka is one of the necessary ingredients > of Noble Eightfold Path. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Andrew: > > Htoo, your clear-thinking may deal with these questions much better > than mine. What do you think about this, if I am ask? > > Many thanks and best wishes > > Andrew T > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > I do hope that I communicate with you clearly. If not, please just > give me a shout that there still are unresolved matters to discuss. Dear Htoo Thank you for your answers. Yes, you have provided me with the information I was seeking. Many thanks Best wishes Andrew T 45501 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:57pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Ken H, Ken H: Monks need exercise just like everybody else does. Even a blind monk needs to get up and walk about. James: LOL! I don't think you are considering this very carefully. It would be dangerous for a blind monk to go walking around a forest, unattended, `for exercise'. He was obviously unattended because he was stepping on insects which bothered other monks. The blind monk would have gotten plenty of exercise by going on alms rounds everyday, traveling, etc.- more exercise probably than we usually get in our modern world. Additionally, he would have only had one meal a day to eat, so it is unlikely he was on an `exercise routine'. Most importantly, the texts state that he was doing `walking meditation'. Now, if you can go back to the original Pali and find that the texts state he was exercising or just walking around, then I will believe you; otherwise, it is pretty obvious to me that you are grasping at straws. Ken H: While he was walking, he was practising right mindfulness (bhavana, meditation), just as he did while in any of the other three postures. James: Yeah, that's walking meditation. You can be thinking of other things while walking or you can be mindful of the walking. If you are mindful of the walking, then you aren't walking to go anywhere- because in that case you are thinking of your destination (and many other things along the way). Ken H: The Buddha taught a practice that can be performed at any time, in any posture and during any activity. That doesn't mean he taught walking - any more than it means he taught eating, talking or answering the calls of nature. James: I didn't say that the Buddha taught walking! ;-)) I said that he obviously taught walking meditation. It's in the ancient texts. Metta, James 45502 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 7:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 dacostacharles Thanks again Philip, What does "sila" and "dana" mean? ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 01 May, 2005 16:24 Subject: [dsg] What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part Hi Charles > You are right, I was thinking of the Mahayana paramis. What are the > 10 Theravada paramis and do they have the same significance? Let me write down a few things from Nina's "Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" which is available at abhidhamma.org No, come to think of it, I will try it as a closed-book test to see what I have retained from reading and rereading it last year. I can't remember if there is a proper order they should be in, but the perfections (paramis) are sila, dana, wisdom, renunciation, determination, metta, truthfulness, energy, patience and equanimity. <....> 45503 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 8:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Phil, Allow me to boldly show my arrogance, or Lions Roar, (which ever term you prefer). I choose to interpret/understand the term "Noble" as one who is moral, has tamed his/her desires. I choose to interpret/understand the term "disciples" as students of, instructed ones in, the dharma (way). I choose to interpret/understand the term "worldlings" as those that are caught up in self centered thinking, to the extent that morality is not really an issue to them. Some miserable people need desperately to be fooled for hour (of meditation) into thinking that they are happy and can remain happy if they give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done. And they may need to be fooled, for periods, into believing that they can, both give up and do ... Philip, can you explain the following a little more: "Another one of my hunches tells me that when people place emphasis on developing sati intentionally, by formally meditating, believing that it increases the likelihood of sati increasing, they thereby come to believe that in daily life there is less likelihood of sati increasing, and could neglect the duty they have to examine all experience and come to understand it. (Conditions permitting.)" I think you are making a good warning but I am not clear about what you are saying. Now the following is clear: "I still suspect that there are forms of meditation that in the wrong hands lead to people feeling temporary relief from suffering, but lead to deepening their roots in samsara, because there is this belief that kusala cittas can be generated intentionally..." However, I am not sure what you mean by "kusala cittas". What you seem not to accept is the fact that one must begin ... and that requires intent. However, you can argue that it requires the right intent. To have no-intent is the same as saying have no aim in life, this is not for beginning Buddhists. There must be intent and there must be "I"; a health ego is essential for enlightenment to be achieved. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, 11 May, 2005 06:43 Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results > I can understand your concerns; however, I remember Noble referring to some one that is moral and ethical. A person was considered Noble because he/she was good natured, liked, and respected for it. So yes, a Noble person had a certain degree of enlightenment, morality, one of the three pillars of the eight-fold- path (the other two being wisdom and concentration). Ph: Well, I'm not sure about this. There are suttas that distinguish between "worldlings" (albeit "uninstructed" ones) and "noble disciples" (albeit "instructed" ones.) <....> 45504 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 14, 2005 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, (*James & Tep), --- Philip wrote: > > I can't imagine Kh Sujin believes in generating metta when it > isn't there, but I don't know what she thinks about the conditioning > power of metta when it *is* there. I want to read her online book > but I haven't been able to find it when I google it. .... S: It's a wonderful book. Just found the first part of the first chapter on line here.* http://www.zolag.co.uk/mettac.html .... S: Here's how it starts -- you may like to post the rest in installments for discussion. >Chapter 1 (Extract) Conditions and impediments Metta, loving kindness, can be cultivated when we know its characteristic. When there is true metta other people are considered as friends: there is a feeling of closeness and sympathy, we have tender care for them and we want to do everything for their benefit and happiness. At such moments the citta is gentle, there is no conceit, mana, which is the condition for asserting oneself, for showing ones own importance and for disparaging others. If there is the earnest wish to develop metta, we want to eliminate akusala dhammas, also those which we usually do not notice. We do not realize the extent of our conceit, jealousy, stinginess, aversion and other defilements. When we develop metta we will begin to notice many kinds of defilements, and as metta is accumulated more there will be less opportunity for the arising of unwholesomeness. Conceit is a defilement which is an impediment to metta. When there is metta we think of the wellbeing of someone else, whereas when there is conceit we find ourselves important.< ***** S: Metta - friendly, considerate and care for others -- no matter whom we meet in a day. When we are concerned with ourselves, our importance or lack of importance, what others think about us, how others treat us or don't treat us, no metta at such times. Of course metta may have an effect on others -- everyone (well most people) appreciates kindness, gentleness, friendliness and courtesy. But no one can control the effect or otherwise of kusala on others -- we all have our own kamma and accumulations which will depend on various conditions at the time. One person may appreciate the kindness while another my be disturbed by it or not notice ....it doesn't matter at all. Kusala is kusala and expectations about effects on others are likely to be akusala:-). Unlike other states, such as karuna or mudita for example, there are opportunities for metta whenever people are the object of citta -- whenever we're on the bus, at the supermarket, walking along the road, at work, talking together and so on, just as you describe so well -- opportunities for metta to develop naturally and easily without an idea of 'me' having more metta. Metta, Sarah *I thought I had seen the whole book on line, but also can't find it now. RobK, do you have a link or pdf file that could be put in DSG files if it's not on a website perhaps? btw, James & all, any of K.Sujin's writings are based on her earlier lectures which have been compiled and translated by Nina mostly into books/booklets. Some of Nina's own writings are also based on these Thai lectures. Tep, if you'd like any of the Thai mp3s, let Sukin or myself know off-list. ======= 45505 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:32am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 194 - Enthusiasm/piiti (l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Not only mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, which are accompanied by somanassa arise with píti, but also the mahå-vipåkacittas and the mahå-kiriyacittas which are accompanied by somanassa arise with píti. As regards mahå-vipåkacittas, these are produced by kamma, and thus it depends on the kamma which produces the mahå-vipåkacitta whether it is accompanied by somanassa and píti or not. Among those who are reborn with mahå-vipåkacitta, some are born with somanassa and píti, others with upekkhå and in that case there is no píti. If one is born with somanassa and píti, all bhavanga-cittas of that life and also the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) are accompanied by somanassa and píti as well(1). *** 1) Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 11. If the function of paìisandhi is performed by an ahetuka vipåkacitta (santíraùa-citta accompanied by upekkhå which can be kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka), píti does not accompany the citta. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45506 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hi Sarah, all sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L, Good to hear from you as usual, Andrew. No need to ever be concerned about dropping out of threads, starting and then leaving them or anything else like that. Also, I really appreciated the kind messages that Tep, James, KenH and Howard wrote to you. You have good friends here, concerned for your welfare and glad if you’ll stay around to share your reflections and practice with us. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) ... S: Ok,this time I’m going to ask you questions then :) > Eh, but see I've seen so much results from sitting meditation > throughout the past few years that I can't think just trying to see > the three characteristics in dhammas is what it's all about. ... S: Have I suggested this? Who is trying? .... >Perhaps > it is a large part of it because I think of times I have been able to > see the impermanence of all things when I was doing very well with > formal vipassana meditation, ... S: Again, who sees the impermanence? What are ‘all things’? ... > and their true nature, expanding, > changing, does appear to me when I practise like this or do walking > meditation. ... S: What do you mean by ‘does appear to me?’ .... > > I just think there is a fundamental discord between the approaches we > are taking. I mean, I want to practise the Noble Eightfold Path. Or > at least the four foundations of mindfulness. These are cultivated > quite intentionally, .... S:When there is ‘wanting’ to practice or intentions to cultivate mindfulness (intentionally), is it kusala or akusala? .... >and I see this as a fundamental conflict with > most of the views espoused here; in fact, it's not the only one. > This is why after an initial post that I get 'good results' from, I > usually trail off with the thread.. it's not going in the direction > of helping me in my practise, with some exceptions, like working > towards understanding ultimate realities. I have to try to get back > in touch with my practise, it seems participating heavily here > hampers that. .... S: Might this be because ideas of ‘my practise’ are in conflict with the understanding of ultimate realities which we read about in the texts? ..... > Sarah, I have to go. I do think that there is some good discussion > here that can help me understand some basic concepts in Buddhism, but > I haven't been able to let it work with my daily life or practise. ... S: Again, is this because of clinging to any idea of ‘my’ daily life and ‘my’ practice, do you think? ..... > One last thing. I think you give me far too much credit for my > reflection and 'understanding.' And this is where I stray with > threads. Perhaps some better effort is called for. ... S: And who makes this effort? .... > At the very least, I will lurk in this group rather than starting > threads I would abandon and so on. > > Sorry for the late reply, as always. ... S: No need to be concerned at all on either count. [more qus to come:)) Metta, Sarah ======= 45507 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Might I also add sarahprocter... Hi Andrew L (Tep, James, Ken H & Howard), --- Andrew Levin wrote: > I think you overestimate my ability and committment with and to the > Dhamma. I do not study and reflect well. I study when possible, > which is not often, much less times I study well. And I do not > reflect at all. ... S: Do you think you’d be here discussing dhamma if there was no reflection at all? Do you see study and reflection and commitment to the Dhamma as being measurable by book study or by the development of understanding of dhammas in daily life, including when one isn’t well or is in a bad state of mind? ... >I am very much interested in the Dhamma, morality, > and the perfections, but must have approached with a wrong mental > perspective because I cannot seem to get a grip. ... S: What do you mean by ‘getting a grip?’. Who gets a grip? Isn’t such interest conditioned too? ... >So I like to keep it > simple, as I bought a small volume by Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble > Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well > under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of > myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. .... S: Who is it that is so concerned and about whom is this person so concerned? .... >In fact, > a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in > the states of deprivation. ... S: Again, fear for whom? ... >Certainly, a balanced perspective on this > would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do > think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying > because I think it will lead to bad things. .... S: Bad things for whom again? .... > I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to jibe with > the people in this group. My whole world has revolved around sitting > meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have acheived > with it. It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of > high acheivement, as I and even some popular artists in the media I > know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. .... S: Please explain. .... >Not > being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, > sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more clearly, > and definitely made things seem more 'real.' ... S: In the end, what is it really, which reality is it, that helps see ultimate realities, i.e namas and rupas more clearly? Can it be sitting cross-legged? Closing one’s eyes? Concentrating on breath? .... >That is, when it's going > for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). ... S: Again, who keeps at it or who does it go for? ... >I've had > results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post because it was > profound compared to every day experience, or recognizing a phenomenon > here or there. ... S: is there a wish to have profound rather than every day experiences? Why? ... > I certainly think taking a studious approach to Abhidhamma can be > good, but it seems it will be exceedingly difficult to study and try > to formulate different conceptual understandings of how reality works, > much less apply them to real, or daily life. .... S: Have I suggested taking a studious approach and then applying it? ..... >Much less trying to keep > the necessary balance between the two (study, practise, daily life [, > realization]). As someone who doesn't get out much, a lot of it still > seems theoretical, and without my health it is difficult to meditate > or get something consistent going. Add in that I am not dead serious > about meditation anymore, and you have a recipe for failure right > there. Certainly I wish to change my course but there are forces that > play on me to stay going in a bad way, but even with my illness I want > to try to put together some kind of understanding or plan of how I can > follow the teachings to their end. .... S: Andrew, you don’t need to answer any of the questions. I’m just trying to help you consider more about how all our problems revolve around a deep clinging to oneself. We forget all the time about conditioned dhammas. In the end, whether dhammas are consistent or not, whether you meditate for a short or a long time, whether one’s course is changed or not, whether there are kilesa or bad things arising or not doesn’t matter. What really matters is the development of understanding with detachment from all the present dhammas at such times which have to be the way they are. Like the ingredients in the soup result in a particular taste, so the ingredients which lead to the arising of present dhammas cannot lead to any others. The deep clinging to self and the futile efforts to change present dhammas lead to so many problems. .... > > I continue to see things here that seem useful, but that I only > vaguely recall when applicable. I guess I do not 'harvest' > understanding well, having an interest in the Dhamma is a far cry from > mastering it. ... S: This is true for us all. It’s ok too....like the adze handle, gradually the understanding will grow and the defilements will be worn away, but not by wishing and expectations and trying to make it happen. ... > > I guess I'll leave it at this for now, hope this clarifies my position > on things to anyone in question. If anyone has any advice it'll > surely be welcome and I'll be here all week to answer questions. ;) ... S: I’m trying to meet the deadline – I hope you will respond to the other kind and metta-filled advice that the others gave you. I’ll look forward to any further comments or reflections you have...but no pressure intended:) Metta, Sarah ======== 45508 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi James (and Tep) Hope you don't mind if I butt in ('creep' in?) here. buddhatrue wrote: >James: In the Dhammapada, Chapter 1, there is a story of a blind monk >who was doing walking meditation in the forest and >he stepped on insects during this walking meditation. His fellow >monks went to the Buddha and told him about this and the Buddha said >that the blind monk wasn't culpable because he didn't know he was >walking on insects. I quoted this story recently to Howard. > >I don't know the Pali for this story, but a blind monk walking a path >back and forth in a forest is obviously doing it for a specific reason >(and it isn't to travel anywhere). One can only assume that he was >doing `walking meditation'. If that blind monk was doing walking >meditation, then the Buddha taught it. > > Did the Buddha teach 'walking meditation'? As Tep suggests, let's not get hung up on a name or label. I think we can all agree that if he did it was as part of the development of samatha (tranquillity) or the development of vipassana (insight). Samatha and vipassana are forms of kusala that occur through the mind-door (only), that is to say, that do not include any element of action through speech or body. For example, if there is metta now, or reflection on a point of dhamma, and it is accompanied by panna that knows the kusala (tranquil) quality of the moment, that is samatha bhavana. If there occurs spontaneously a level of attention to the presently arising visible object or sound, or attachment or aversion, or any other dhamma, so that there is the direct experience of that dhamma, that is mundane insight. In the case of samatha, high levels of attainment (such as jhana and the approach to jhana) are typically (but not necessarily) associated with a certain austere lifestyle and a seated posture alternated with periods of walking on a suitable walkway, and there are plenty of references in the suttas to this kind of activity. When the Buddha praised this kind of lifestyle, he was I think praising the the high level of kusala involved, and the qualities required to achieve those attainments. But I don't think we are being invited to *equate* the development of samatha and vipassana per se with a particular lifestyle or set of austere practices, nor to see that lifestyle as being particularly conducive to the development of samatha or vipassana for all and sundry. I think the primary condition for the development of a given form of kusala is one's previously accumulated tendencies for that form of kusala. Now I think all of us here must have developed both samatha and vipassana in previous existences, otherwise we would not have the strong interest in the teachings that we do, so with the right supporting conditions in this lifetime, and these include of course moral encouragement and a sound theoretical understanding, there can be moments of tranquillity and insight development, even though we are not at the same advanced level as those who lived at the time of the Buddha. As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as explained by the adze handle simile. Jon 45509 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause jonoabb Hi Htoo >Almost all Buddhists know that there are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. >But as these are not their direct knowledge, the knowledge does not >stay long in their mind. And as soon as 'mindfulness' leaves them >they all think that there are 'nicca, sukha, atta, and subha'. > > I like the way you put this. Much of what we take for 'mindfulness' is just thinking about dhammas or their characteristics. We don't actually *see* things as they truly are. Thanks for the reminder. >PS: Tell Sarah, to get ready with a camera when I come to Hong Kong. >But I do not know when will that be. > > Sounds like the only way we're going to get you into the 'Photos' file is to take a picture of you ourselves. OK, we'll be ready when the time comes (but you'll have to check to make sure we'll be in Hong Kong). Jon 45510 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: Inquiry for opinions matheesha333 Hi Kel, K:> The way I read the first sutta, Buddha basically gave a list of > things to try in order to overcome thina-middha. With successively > more effort and seemingly unnatural things like "pulling both ear > lobes". Isn't it better to just understand the reality as it is and > nothing wrong with falling asleep? Getting up to walk to shake > sleepiness, is that motivated by sense of self or suble lobha? Also > being choosy about a particular place of practice, "dwellings with > less noise, suitable for the seclusion of humans". But maybe > instructions are for samatha only? M: My take on things would be more line with traditional meditational practices. So please note that this is an alternate way of looking at this. In many places in the suttas we can find this type of instruction. Effort and determination have been praised, and this is actually 'putting in the hours'. This could be for samatha or vipassana. While this would contain a sense of self, there is no indication in the suttas that the buddha in his Gradual training urged his disciples to start noting self/not self early on in the practice. In fact it is more practices like sense restraint, being moderate in food, keeping precepts, removing hindrences etc. This was to prepare the mind so that it was possible to 'put aside greed & distress with reference to the world' and prepare him for the life and practice of a monk and sathipatthana practice. The idea that there is no point trying to influnce the dhammas seem somewhat questionable, after all even momentary mindfulness requires at least a minor degree of tinkering on our part in the stream of thought. To have no influence would be to not have any kind of practice and to go on with life as usual. There is this idea of no insight, momentary (flashing) insight and continued insight, in the suttas. Flashing insight would be where there is some sudden sporadic noting of the characterisitcs/dhammas. Continued insight requires that the mind be prepared and insight is continuous because faculties of the mind are developed to a degree which is conducive to this. Removement of kilesa is much quicker as well because the mind is 'made malleable' as seen after jhaana practice. K:Isn't it better to just understand the reality as it is and > nothing wrong with falling asleep? M: I think there is a sense of urgency and that the mind has to be prepared to experience the full results of what the buddhist path has to offer. The Buddha has said that samatha and vipassana are like to wheels of the chariot of the dhamma. To do only one without the other is IMO like trying to attain nibbaana without keeping precepts -ie not quite the balanced way of doing things. Why would the buddha instruct one of his formost desciples in this manner, after making a journey to come and see him, without asking him to directly start insight practice? K: Getting up to walk to shake > sleepiness, is that motivated by sense of self or suble lobha? M: All practioners will have all these things in the begining. I dont think when a person's mental faculties are weak it is even possible to note the very subtle sense of self/sukha/permanance concepts working behind the scenes at every moment, not just when one has the thought 'I need to attain nibbaana/I need to get a haircut'. So this is where everone starts and thats perfectly fine. The important point is that the practice leads to unshakable insight into the three characteristics even though it start in the opposite end of the spectrum of (non)insight. It is possible to be aware of continued impermanence when one is aware of the dhammas arising and passing away, and this is an important stage of insight. "Therefore, Dighavu, when you are established in these four factors of stream-entry, you should further develop six qualities conducive to clear knowing. Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications, percipient of stress in what is inconstant, percipient of not-self in what is stressful, percipient of abandoning, percipient of dispassion, percipient of cessation. That's how you should train yourself." [SN LV.3] The stages of abandoning, dispassion and cessation do follow such practice quite quickly, rather than prolonged periods you would find in the flashing insight type of practice. The mind is full of moha and with such practice it would take decades. K:But maybe > instructions are for samatha only? M: I think the bottom line is that people find it easier to read books, listen to sermons, engage in dhamma discussions and note the occassional dhamma, rather than do the more difficult bits. But then everyone must do what works for them regardless of whether it takes longer or shorter. The instructions IMO are in preperation of the mind for eventual insight practice. metta Matheesha 45511 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:50am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo > > >Almost all Buddhists know that there are anicca, dukkha, and anatta. > >But as these are not their direct knowledge, the knowledge does not > >stay long in their mind. And as soon as 'mindfulness' leaves them > >they all think that there are 'nicca, sukha, atta, and subha'. > > > > > > I like the way you put this. Much of what we take for 'mindfulness' is > just thinking about dhammas or their characteristics. We don't actually > *see* things as they truly are. Thanks for the reminder. > > >PS: Tell Sarah, to get ready with a camera when I come to Hong Kong. > >But I do not know when will that be. > > > > > > Sounds like the only way we're going to get you into the 'Photos' file > is to take a picture of you ourselves. OK, we'll be ready when the time > comes (but you'll have to check to make sure we'll be in Hong Kong). > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your reply. :-) I will check beforehand. And I will also check when leaving this world. What to check? 1. where am I going? 2. where am I not going? 3. am I going anywhere? 4. is there somewhere that I am going to? 5. lastly is there someone who is going to go somewhere? :-) With much respect, Htoo Naing 45512 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:52am Subject: Dhamma Thread (369) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Vitakka has to be jhana-vitakka and vicaara also has to be jhana- vicaara if they are to be jhana factors. Piiti means 'rapture' or 'suffused joy'. Again, there are many forms of piiti or joy. Piti can follow kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, abyakata dhamma. Piti is a flexible cetasika. But to become a jhana-piti there have to be accompanied by other jhana factors at least jhana-sukha and jhana-samadhi or jhana- ekaggata. There are khuddakaa piti, khanikaa piti, okanti piti, ubbhegaa piti, and pharanaa piti. This classification is not so important. What is important is that these piti have to be accompanied by other jhana factors, which are always accompanied by pannindriya cetasika, saddhaa, sati, alobha, adosa, tatramajjhattata and other sobhana cetasika. Like piiti, sukha also has to be jhana-sukha. Sukha is 'pleasant feeling'. Feeling or vedana is a cetasika and this cetasika, when working as jhana-sukha is not like other sukha vedana or pleasant feeling. Because other pleasant feelings are almost always accompanied by akusala cetasikas. But jhana-sukha is accompanied by pannindriya cetasika, sati, saddha and other sobhana cetasikas or beautiful mental factors. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. : Piiti has been explained in cetasika portion of Dhamma Thread. 45513 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 2:12am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self htootintnaing Dear Christine and all, Your post is stimulating one to explore Dhamma deeply. You wrote: Hello James, all, One of the first long threads I was involved in when I joined dsg some years ago concerned Metta - it was explained to me, by senior members of this list, that it could not be radiated to oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sorry Christine, I cannot read all messages at DSG. But metta is not a physical one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: This left me with feeling, after long and torturous discussion, that metta was just a quality in a person conditioning them to act with goodwill, and in a friendly way, towards all beings in the world - but was not ever to be directed towards oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Directionwise there must not have any limitation. 'May my metta go in that way and not in this way' is not appamanna or unlimitable pure- living. There does exist attachment when there is a choice. Oneself is already included in unlimited beings. Why not be directed towards oneself. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: I also gained the impression, contrary to general usage, that it was not a 'psychic' force of any sort, and one couldn't, for example, 'send' metta to someone in sickness or trouble to help them feel better or change their conditions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When vipaka, kamma, sankhara, dhamma etc are understood there is no way to arise such issue. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Christine: I am surprised to read this quote from K. Sujin - could you give me the reference so I can read more around it myself please? It sounds very much from what you [? James] quote that she is agreeing with 'radiating metta' to influence other beings ... metta and peace, Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: People are almost deluded with illusionary thinking. But there are conditions that may help those who are in trouble. At least 'who are radiating metta' will have a sweety face because of pure mind if it is real metta and not lobha. This sweety face may support the troubled people. Otherwise no one can influence vipaka. This is true even for The Buddha. That is The Buddha will not be able change vipaka. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45514 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] ayoniso manasikaaro sarahprocter... Hi Connie, (& Phil) --- connie wrote: S:On the cool desert island book things- > I'd think Howard would enjoy reading that kind of stuff. What kind of > Disney rides do you think he went on? Jon has never given me the > creeps. ... S: Howould we know Howard’s rides? I’d guess the merry-go-round with baby Sarah:) Jon likes the scariest ones on offer that give me more than a few creeps. Do you think there’s a connection between cautions and creeps? oops:-) > that's samphappalaapa. ... S: taking your word for it:-? ... ( > > A couple other cool desert island book things, just because: > << > "... the kamma of the followers who assert what is not the Law is > greatly > reprehensible. " dsp v2 pp175-6. ... S: and schisms in the Order – kamma of immediate effect ... > > 2394. Herein, true pride is cast out by the path of arahatship; what is > > not true pride is cast out by the path of Stream Entry. .... S: I have this marked in my text too. What is called ‘true pride’ is The idea of superiority in one who is superior, equality in one who is equal and inferiority in one who is inferior. The other kinds of pride being of course the idea of superiority in one who is not superior etc. the ‘true prides’ are the last to go and include the most subtle. Lots more here for the desert island. ... S: Walking advantages – I looked up that word on obstacles which you translated as few obstacles and came up with no obstacles....changing posture, better for the body and drosiness...no obstacles to sati as I see it. I have to try and remember to get up from the computer and walk around every so often so as not to have to go running for wrist and neck help...loved all the waling graffiti btw in #43501 too Also, as you wrote to Htoo and all: “But I think the well instructed monk knows there is no my surviving foot in all this coming and going, just things ‘come about merely by means of the diffusion of the air element through the action of consciousness’ and such.” Who is Pali-Girl, Mary, JozaiDog, Dinah and what was the big KAboom the other day? What about a key – translations like Tep gives in the anapanasati extracts:-). >Bhaasite (“in talking”): in the act of speaking. Herein, when there is no occurrence of the derived materiality of the sound base, there is no talking; when it occurs there is, and the bhikkhu who lays hold in this way is one who practices clear comprehension in talking...” .. S: The bhikkhu understands that any dhammas just arise according to conditions, understands whatever is appearing...no need to concentrate or select or label any dhammas or concepts...walking, walking, talking, talking....clear comprehension is a lot deeper than that.... And on speech, Phil, the quality or sound of the voice is also conditioned by kamma. Even arahants can have rough or loud or harsh-sounding voices... Only the Buddha doesn’t have vasana, the habits conditioned by kamma and subsequent cittas. Connie -look f/w to more extracts and clues along the way....hope you're over the floods, fires, flus and other illusionary obstacles. Metta, Sarah ======== 45515 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Htoo >The point that I made above is here. Jon wrote > >'samadhi will be of the strength and nature of jhana'. > >So it is clear that it is not exactly 'rupavacara rupa jhana'. But it >is 'the samadhi which have the strength and nature of jhana'. > >I used to say on this that 'samma-samadhi of Noble Eightfold Path' is >not of rupavacara rupa jhana or not of arupavacara arupa jhana. But >one has to emerge from rupa jhana or arupa jhana and then he or she >has to see directly on 'NAMA' or 'RUPA' while seeing 'anicca-dukkha- >anatta' markers on that nama or rupa. So it is in the vicinity of >rupa jhana or arupa jhana. Or it may well be khanika samadhi or it >may well be upacara samadhi to work as part of Noblke Eightfold Path >as samma-samadhi. > > Thanks for these comments. I'd just to quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes in his translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on this point, which I believe are based on the commentarial material: "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas*, and because they *possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas*." (CMA Ch. I, Guide (i.e.. summary of commentary) to ##30-31) In the PTS translation, the relevant passage of the text of the A-S itself reads: "(41) By taking each in five ways by division according to association with jhaana-factors, the unsurpassed consciousness is said to be fortyfold." This I think is to the same effect as the second of the reasons given in the BB passage above. Jon 45516 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:29am Subject: Dhamma Thread (370) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Each factor has been talked in the previous posts. To become jhana factors, all these 5 cetasikas have to work in their full power as jhana-factors and they work hand in hand in the first jhana. All these 5 factors have to be cetasikas of 1st ruupa jhana citta to become jhana-factors. The leader is 1st jhana-citta. It is also called rupavacara 1st jhana rupuakusala citta. As it is a citta, it always has its object. It always has to depend on a ground or vatthu. All 1st jhana citta, whether they are kusala citta or vipaka citta or kiriya citta, they always depend on hadaya vatthu. When there is no hadaya vatthu or heart-base then there is no 1st jhana citta at all. 1st jhana citta cannot arise in aruupa brahmas as they do not have any rupa and so they do not have any hadaya rupa. So it is clear that 1st jhana citta depends on hadaya vatthu. And 1st jhana citta also has to depend on an object. Here the object for 1st jhana citta is always pannatti. No other object can be the object of 1st jhana citta. This is always true. But lokuttara cittas always take nibbana as their object. So lokuttara 1st jhana citta also take nibbana as its object. This happens, because lokuttara 1st jhana citta is a lokuttara citta. It is not rupavacara 1st jhana citta. So lokuttara 1st jhana citta can NEVER take pannatti as its object. But all rupavacara 1st jhana citta always always take pannatti as their object. As there are 26 kinds of kammatthaanas that can give rise to 1st rupa jhana, there are 26 different kinds of pannatti for 1st jhana citta depending on what kammatthana has been practising. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45517 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 14, 2005 10:56pm Subject: The Conceit: 'I Am' ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Primary Self-Deception of a core Ego: Even when old & sick, the wise Elder Khemaka spoke this & thereby made himself & 60 listening bhikkhu friends fully awakened Arahats: Friends, I do not speak of 'I Am' as within form, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from form! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within feeling, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from feeling! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within experience, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from experience! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within mental construction, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from mental construction! I do not speak of 'I Am' as within consciousness, nor do I speak of 'I Am' as outside or apart from consciousness! Friends, although the notion 'I Am' has still not been eliminated by me regarding these five clusters of clinging, yet I do not regard anything among them or within them as 'This I am...' ... Friends, even though a Noble Disciple has broken the five minor mental chains, eliminated the five lower fetters, still, regarding these five clusters of clinging, there remains in him a residual conceit 'I Am', there lingers a subtle desire for being: 'I Am' and there hang on a latent tendency to conceiving 'I Am', that has not yet been uprooted! Sometime later while he dwells contemplating the rise and fall of the 5 clusters of clinging: 'Such is form, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is feeling, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is experience, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is mental construction, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing; such is consciousness, such is it's cause, such is it's ceasing, is it's passing away... As he dwells thus contemplating rise & fall in these five clusters of clinging, any residual conceit 'I Am', any remnant desire to 'I Am', & any latent tendency 'I Am', that had not yet been uprooted, this becomes uprooted & eliminated completely... Source: The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya III [130-1] Full Text: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-089.html Book: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 PS: The causes of origin cause arising when they are present, while ceasing when they are absent: Cause of Body & Form is Food, past Ignorance, Lust for Form, and Action resulting in Form. Cause of Feeling is Contact, past Ignorance, Lust for Feeling, and Action resulting in Feeling. Cause of Experience is Contact, Ignorance, Lust for Experience, and Action resulting in Experience. Cause of Construction is Contact, Ignorance, Lust for Construction, & Action resulting in Construction. Cause of Consciousness is Name&Form, Ignorance, Lust for form, Action resulting in Consciousness. Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45518 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:51am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self christine_fo... Hello Htoo, all, Thank you for your helpful post, it is much appreciated. One point is still unclear - the radiating of metta to oneself. This was discussed some years ago, and this post is part of that thread: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9322 metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" <<>> > Htoo: > > Directionwise there must not have any limitation. 'May my metta go in > that way and not in this way' is not appamanna or unlimitable pure- > living. There does exist attachment when there is a choice. > > Oneself is already included in unlimited beings. Why not be directed > towards oneself. <<>> > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45519 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (371) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' These are cetasikas and there are other cetasikas in 1st jhana. In total there are 35 cetasikas in 1st jhana. But only above 5 cetasikas are counted as jhana-factors. They are 1. vitakka 2. vicara 3. piti 4. vedana 5. ekaggata. All jhanas, ruupa or aruupa, are opposite to aversion. So aversion has to be abandoned at all 'stages of development of mind' up to 'genuine jhana-state'. All jhanas, ruupa or aruupa, are opposite to kaama. So kaama has to be abandon at all stages of development of mind' up to 'genuine jhana- state'. Aversion is easy to understand. But kaama is a wide subject and it needs further elucidation. Kaama are things related to 5 physical senses. It is normal for all kaama beings that they have kaama related mind. They will be thinking in the way that more and more kaama objects are experienced. They will be involving in kaama related things most of the time. However, all those who want to stay in jhana and who want to become brahmas in their next life will have to abandon both kaam and aversion. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45520 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:54am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, I read your troubling experiences as a nun. I'm sorry this was like this. I can understand more where 'you are coming from'. I wrote a detailed reply to you on Friday, but yahoo seems to have swollowed it as it sometimes does. I was 'practicing' :) today and I feel a lot of nekkhamma right about now. So i dont feel like mental proliferation right now. Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of giving up. Giving up (letting go, if you like) is to get a glimpse of nibbana, as sankhara stops appearing. I like the zennies at times like this. peace and bliss Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Matheesha, > > Thanks for joining this discussion. > > --- matheesha wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > <...> > > I must say that I have been helped greatly by 'meditating all those > > hours in the day and 'living unnaturally' as you put it. :) > ... > S: I think I did say 'living unnaturally' for me -- I'm a reasonably > sociable person as you can see here and to live silently in a forest with > minimal contact and little reading is very 'unnatural'. On the other hand, > here in Hong Kong's hustle bustle, I'm perfectly at home:). > .... > > You might note many suttas where the buddha praises a great disciple > > in meditation in a jungle without even a single movement of the > > body. > ... > S: You might also note many suttas where the opposite is true. For > example, look at the Mighajala Sutta in SN about living alone in the > crowds or look at Meghiya in Udana 4-1. He was the Buddha's attendant and > went off to the mango grove to meditate against the Buddha's advice and > was overcome by kilesa (defilements). [Lots more on the deeper meanings of > seclusion etc in U.P. under 'solitude, seclusion'.] > ... > >You might note other places where they are practicing walking > > meditation, enjoying fewness of desires and even fewer meals and > > hours asleep. :) > ... > S: Well, I read mention of developing bhavana while walking, sitting, > standing etc. Again, pls see 'Walking' in U.P. and join in Htoo's > discussion:). Fewness of desires - yes, but by understanding desires and > other dhammas when they arise. I usually get up pretty early and only eat > one meal and a bit, but I think that has very little to do (in my case) > with fewness of desires -- probably, quite the contrary:). The same > applies when I take myself off somewhere quietly for half the day or do my > yoga or tai chi - desire is there, no matter how calm or tranquil it might > appear. > .... > <..> > > Yes of course it is motivated by desire and a sense of self. > ... > S: Especially if the actions are motivated by a sense of self and this is > what is being accumulated, it should be known. It doesn't mean one needs > to change ones habits, but it's important to see any wrong views of self > more and more at such times > ... > >Once > > VenAnanda was questioned by an ascetic about the buddhist path and > > he talks about the 4 bases of power (sathara iddipada) of which the > > first one is canda, which is a form of desire. > .... > S: Just to be clear, the chanda which is an iddhipada is kusala > (wholesome) desire. chanda can be wholesome or more usually, unwholesome. > When we were referring to desire in our discussion, it was to lobha > (attachment)and unwholesome desire I think. (At least I was). > > Matheesha, I liked your sutta summaries, but to discuss further, you'd > need to give me links or references. It's true that unwholesome states can > condition wholesome ones, but that doesn't mean we cultivate the > unwholesome ones. For example, anger may condition some wise reflection, > but it doesn't mean that anger should be cultivated. > .... > > There is a sutta where the buddha admonishes Anathapindika and says > > that lay people should spend time in seclusion, not just giving > > dana. I dont see anything wrong in spending a few weeks away on > > retreat as a necessary boost to develop some of the mental faculties > > the buddha speaks of. > ... > S: Again we'd need to look at the Buddha's words more carefully. I also > don't see anything wrong with retreats as such. It always comes back to > bhavana - the meaning and the present mental states. If we're not in > retreat now, should we wait until we are for bhavana? > .... > I have benefitted greatly from it and gained > > much insight which otherwise i would not have. Most sutta would be > > gibberish and just studying about the 'taste of oranges' if you know > > what i mean. There's no hindrence to coming back and living your > > life as it is. > ... > S: Again, the right cause will lead to the right results. Moments of real > bhavana - samatha or vipassana development will lead to great results > whether on retreat or at the computer in the city. The hindrance to > satipatthana is wrong view about present dhammas. > ... > > > > I'm sorry that you feel that such experience has not been useful to > > you. > ... > S: Again, let me stress that I think that any moments of wise reflection, > wise consideration and genuine sati are very useful. Moments of trying to > direct sati with an idea of self or trying to have certain mental states > arise or selecting particular objects for bhavana is less than not > useful:). I think this is all regardless of the situation or circumstances > we find ourselves in. > ... > > > > Do you really feel that it is not possible to experience such things > > as jhana mentioned in the suttas as we presently dont have enough > > good kamma, as was suggested by someone earlier? > .. > S: I'm not really bothered about whether it's possible to attain jhana or > become an arahant today for that moment. I know that there is (in my case) > so little development of samatha and satipatthana that it's more helpful > to just begin to understand the present dhammas as they appear now, rather > than thinking about possible attainments in future, when we can have no > idea. > > When others talk about their attainments, it's OK. We can check what is > said in the texts and see if it makes sense. > > See also 'Sasana - decline' in U.P. if you like. > ... > > > > I am not questioning what works for you. We all have to tread our > > different paths. Different things work for different people. > <...> > ... > S: Iknow this is a popular view. Only one path of satipatthana leading to > one eightfold Path however. > > Thanks for your feedback, Matheesha. I am not saying to you or anyone > 'Don't meditate' or 'Don't go to the forest'. I'm jsut saying that the > path is about understanding present conditioned dhammas regardless of > special intentions, locations or postures. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 45521 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:56am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhatrue Hi Christine (and Phil), Christine: I am surprised to read this quote from K. Sujin - could you give me the reference so I can read more around it myself please? It sounds very much from what you quote that she is agreeing with 'radiating metta' to influence other beings ... James: Christine, I assure you that I am not taking K. Sujin out of context. She is agreeing with the `radiation of metta' to influence other beings. Really, you shouldn't be surprised because that is what the Buddha taught regarding the Brahma-Viharas. I will quote the longer dialogue (since you have raised doubt) and then I will provide the link (which I believe is in the original post to Phil). In this dialogue, "S" is Ms. Sujin Boriharnwanaket and "W" is Ms. Wandhana Thippewan: W. : I understand that dosa is not only anger. Thus, whenever the citta is harsh, when it injures and lacks mettaa, the characteristic of dosa appears. S. : Did you ever hear the expression of extending mettaa? W. : I have heard this expression. When I listen to a sermon on Dhamma in the temple, I notice that the monk, after he has finished, exhorts the lay-followers to extend mettaa. We then follow up what he says and recite words concerning the extension of mettaa. S. : When someones citta is full of mettaa, he can extend mettaa to others; he can extend his goodwill to someone else and wish for his happiness. We can find out by a persons actions and words whether his citta has such degree of mettaa that he can extend it to someone else. If someone does not harm or hurt others by actions or words, it is clear that he has mettaa to such extent that he can abstain from ill deeds through body and speech. W. : If that is the case, the observance of the five precepts is a way to evaluate the result of the development of mettaa and its extension. It should be extended with a sincere inclination. The strength of a persons intention to extend mettaa will bring its appropriate result. http://www.abhidhamma.org/meri2.html Metta, James 45522 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:58am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Htoo, all, > > Thank you for your helpful post, it is much appreciated. > > One point is still unclear - the radiating of metta to oneself. > This was discussed some years ago, and this post is part of that > thread: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/9322 > > metta, > Chris -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Christine, 'Metta brahmavihaara kammatthaana bhaavana' or 'loving-kindness pure- living mediational cultivation' does deal with one's self. 'Aham avero homi' 'May I be free from enemies' 'Aham abyapajjo homi' 'May I be free from danger' 'Aham aniigho homi' 'May I be free from suffering' 'Aham sukhiattaanam parihaaraami' 'May I be healthy and wealthy'. Aniigha = niddukkha = free of dukkha These 4 citations or 4 wishes are for reference. Metta starts with sending to one's self. When this oneself is not healthy and die there is no way to send metta to other. So the most important thing is to send metta to one's self. This is no doubt. Only after that all other 528 citations or 528 wishes are made or metta is sent to 10 different directions. One's self is the most deared one in 31 realms. Take a scale of 2 sides with the indicator in the middle and put yourself into one side and put others into the other side. The scale must indicate equal and the indicator must stand in the right middle. That is you = me you = your son you = your daughter you = your etc etc you = your best friend you = your other friends you = any person you = all people you = all beings you = your enemy you = your enemies you = unknown beings These equations are just weightage of metta. There must not be any limitation. If there is limit, then there is lobha and it is not true metta. When people say that metta cannot be sent to one's self, I think they might be considering on the occasions when they are sending metta to others. But to one's own self is quite possible. See 'Aham avero homi' 'Aham abyaapajjo homi' 'Aham aniigho homi' 'Aham sukhiattaanam parihaaraami'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45523 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread (372) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' What is 1st jhaana? 1st jhaana is 'a mental state in which there are 35 cetasikas, among which 5 are jhana-factors, along with mind-generated matters' while arising these faculties there is burning out of the opposite to jhaana namely kaama, aversion, instability, worry, sloth, torpor, doubt & suspicion. These words seem very technical. But jhaana needs thorough understanding before they are being developed and practised. Otherwise one may step on the wrong way as there always are strong attractions to wrong path while these highly intelligence requiring states are being developed. That is why Dhamma Thread repeatedly explain on jhaana matters. First, when in the portion of citta, jhaana cittas are explained along with jhaanas. Second, the result of jhaana gives rise to rebirth in brahma bhuumi and when these bhuumis are explained, jhaanas are also explained. And third, kamma that are rupavacara are now again explained in connection with jhanas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45524 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:20am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, I'm sorry you lost the earlier message ...it's a real test of patience to re-write a long post I find. --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I read your troubling experiences as a nun. I'm sorry this was like > this. I can understand more where 'you are coming from'. ... S: In brief, I wasn't a nun and I don't think I referred to 'troubling experiences' at all. On the contrary, I'd been encouraged (erroneously)to believe there were all sorts of wondrous experiences and insights. The highlight, however, was definitely realising that my 'practice' had been mis-guided from beginning to listen to A.Sujin, reading a manuscript of some chapters of ADL and really study Tipitaka texts with a friend at the end of my stay. I hasten to add that it was a beautiful forest temple with very kind supportive people and a wonderful opportunity to participate in temple life, listen to the monks chanting, live a very simple life and so on. All of that was a very long time ago, btw. .... > I wrote a detailed reply to you on Friday, but yahoo seems to have > swollowed it as it sometimes does. I was 'practicing' :) today and I > feel a lot of nekkhamma right about now. So i dont feel like mental > proliferation right now. ... S: Well, I'd rather discuss more on nekkhama anyway. How do you understand nekkhama? .... > > Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm > trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. ... S: Giving up of what? Giving up of worldly possessions or giving up of defilements? ... > > Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of > giving up. Giving up (letting go, if you like) is to get a glimpse > of nibbana, as sankhara stops appearing. .... S: yes, I agree - panna for the sake of giving up the idea of self and other kilesa as I see it. How about you? .... > > I like the zennies at times like this. ... S: please say a little more:-/ Thanks so much Matheesha for taking the time to write again to me. Also, I enjoy reading your other posts. Metta, Sarah p.s I'm not doing it now, but I try to remember to compose any long messages off-line in a word doc in case they get lost like yours did. ======== 45525 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 6:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi again Htoo htootintnaing wrote: >I agree with Jon. The Buddha just preached a continuous actions. >Aataapi sampajaano satimaa viharati. > >Aataapi = who is producing effort, one who has diligent effort >Sampajaano = sam_well, pa_detail, jananti_know (clear understanding) >Satimaa = mindfulness >Viharati = abide > >There is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The >Buddha. But The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events >through out the day and night and as long as conscious. > >This implied inference can be seen in mahasatipatthana sutta that The >Buddha preached in 21 sessions. > >1. abiding in contemplation of the body 14 sessions >2. abiding in contemplation of feeling 1 session >3. abiding in contemplation of mind 1 session >4. abiding in contemplation of dhamma 5 sessions > ------------ > 21 sessions > >Even though The Buddha preached in 21 sessions, these sessions are >not separated practices. So it is wrong to assume that there is >sitting meditation, walking meditation etc etc. > >These are just talked to communicate. > > I agree. As I see it, the message we get from the suttas is that there can be mindfulness or understanding of any dhamma at any time regardless of the current posture or activity. The prerequisites to that mindfulness are not a particular kind of 'practice' but a proper grasp of certain fundamental aspects of the teachings such as the dhammas that can be the object of mindfulness. >If someone assumes that 'such acitvity' is genuine practice he will >do so when he is practising in that way. But as soon as out of hour, >he will be out of dhamma. > >The activity itself may or may not be the right one. If one wrongly >practise then it will be wrong practice rather than genuine practice. > > I think if one is doing something because one thinks it is taught by the Buddha as the way to develop mindfulness, but one has misunderstood the teaching in question, then there will inevitably be wrong practice. This is the danger of any form of directed 'practice'. There are no points for trying in this game (unfortunately)! Furthermore, wrong practice leads only to more wrong practice. Practice that is undertaken with an idea of self, for example, cannot somehow 'morph' into right practice. Jon 45526 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 6:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] jonoabb Hi Tep >T: Why is labelling that important? > > A good point, Tep. But a certain degree of consistency of labelling makes discussion easier, don't you think. Unfortunately, 'meditation' is one of those terms that seems to defy definition, and what it means to one person will be different to what it means for another. >T: The mindfulness practice while in any body posture is, of course, >known as kayanupassana-satipatthana in MN 10, DN 22. Walking and >meditate, as well as sitting and meditate were recommended by the >Buddha in some suttas like MN 39: > >Bhikkhus, you should train thus: 'We shall be devoted to wakefulness. >During the day, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of >obstructing states. In the first watch of the night, while walking and sitting, >we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the middle watch of the >night, lying on the right side in the lion's posture, keeping one foot >overlapping the other, mindful and aware of the time of waking, we will >sleep. In the last watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will >purify our minds of obstructing states.' -- MN 39 Mahaassapurasuttam. > >The purifying one's mind of obstructing states while walking >is "labelled" as "walking meditation", and "while sitting" is known >as "formal meditation" . The Buddha only provided a direction without >details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. >Buddhaghasa also did it his way. > > Thanks, Tep, your explanation is helpful. But I think at the same time it highlights one of the difficulties of this particular label. 'Walking meditation' seems to be used to mean both meditation *of* walking (i.e., movement of feet, etc., as a form of vipassana/satipatthana) and meditation *while* walking (i.e., maintaining one's chosen (samatha) meditation subject, as I suspect in intended in the context of purification of obstructing states). Likewise 'sitting meditation' is used by some to mean samatha, by others to refer to vipassana. Only by sticking to the terms used in the texts can this kind of confusion be avoided. But that is a personal preference of mine, and I know others have other approaches. Jon 45527 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:28am Subject: Dhamma Thread (373) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 jhaanas. 4 are ruupa jhaanas and other 4 are aruupa jhaanas. Aruupa jhaanas base on ruupa jhaanas and all ruupa jhaanas are derivatives of 1st jhaana. So it is important that the first jhaana is thoroughly learned. The firsr jhaana has been defined in the previous post. It is a mental state. That mental state is associated with 35 cetasikas and among these 35 cetasikas, 5 cetasikas are jhaana factors. These 5 cetasikas which are jhaana factors are 1. vitakka or 'initial application' 2. vicara or 'sustained application' 3. piti or 'rapture or joy' 4. sukha or 'peace or calmness or tranquility' 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' So 1st jhana is a state when there are total clearance of 5 hindrances of 1. kaamacchanda nivarana / sensuous-thought hindrance 2. byaapaada nivarana / aversive-thought hindrance 3. thina-middha nivarana / sloth-torpor-thought hindrance 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana / wandering-worrying-thought hindrance 5. vicikicchaa nivarana / suspicious-doubtful-thought hindrance while energetic working of 1. vitakka [jhaana-vitakka] or 'initial application to jhaana object' 2. vicara [jhana-vicara] or 'sustained application to jhana object' 3. piti or rapture or suffused-joy 4. sukha or peace or tranquility of calmness 5. ekaggataa or stillness or fixity or absolute calm without ripples May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45528 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Is a kalapa an object of consciousness? Does it have > characteristic, > > function manifestation and proximate cause? > > > > Larry > > -------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > Dear Larry, > > > > I think, I have said that Nina, Rob M etc are good at these 4 > > features > > of realities. They may answer your questions. > > > > What I think is that kalapa or aggregate itself has already been > > pannatti even though I have said it is basic working unit. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > Hi Htoo, > > Okay, if kalapa is a concept is contact a concept? I am talking here > not of the contact cetasika but of the coming together of three > realities, sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. Is > consciousness cognizing an object a concept? In all of these cases we > have two or more realities together. The Buddha talks about khandha a > lot. "Khandha" means group. "Sankhara" can mean to form into a group. > What is going on here? One dhamma is real; two dhammas is concept???? ===== The rupa visible object is taken as object by an eye-door process. The rupa hardness is taken as object by a body-door process. The rupa odour is taken as object by a nose-door process. Only one of these rupas are taken as object at one time as there is only one type of process arising at one time. Nevertheless, the rupas visible object, hardness and odour never arise in isolation. They always arise together (together with a number of other rupas) as a kalapa. In other words, kalapa is a name (concept) representing a group of rupas. As a name / concept, kalapa can be taken as object by a mind-door process, but not as an object of a sense-door process. In fact, some of the rupas which are fundamental building blocks of all kalapas (cohesion, space and nutrition) can only be taken as object by a mind-door process. In other words, a mind-door process can take either a paramattha dhamma or a concept as object. Sense-door processes only take paramattha dhammas as objects. Characteristic / Function / Manifestation / Proximate Cause is a literary devices used in the commentaries used to help define terms. I believe that the commentary does not restrict the use of this literary technique to paramattha dhammas (can't find an example at the moment). Larry, does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 45529 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:32am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Hi Htoo, Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? metta Matheesha 45530 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:37am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi again Htoo I think if one is doing something because one thinks it is taught by the > Buddha as the way to develop mindfulness, but one has misunderstood the > teaching in question, then there will inevitably be wrong practice. > This is the danger of any form of directed 'practice'. There are no > points for trying in this game (unfortunately)! > > Furthermore, wrong practice leads only to more wrong practice. Practice > that is undertaken with an idea of self, for example, cannot somehow > 'morph' into right practice. > > Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, I understand you and Sarah with regard to 'formal sitting meditation'. And I also sense right wish of those who want to fortify the practice. Those who are reluctant to do meditation practice because of inadvertant fear of wrong practition will regret later. It is good to do before we vanish from this world. The older we are the weaker we are and the less physical support from our body. Learning goes through trials and errors. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45531 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (374) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, It is now clear what 1st jhaana means as it has repeatedly explained againg and again. If only nama dhamma is viewed, then there is a citta who knows the object of 1st jhana and that citta is accompanied by 35 cetasikas among which 5 cetasikas are jhana factors and are working energetically while these 5 jhana factors burn their opposite enemies of lobha (sensuous thinking), dosa (aversive thinking), thina & middha (sloth & torporous thinking), uddhacca-kukkicca (wandering- worrying thinking) and vicikicchaa (suspicious thinking). 1st jhana is a mental state. This is now clear. But cittas in pancavokaara bhuumis or realms with 5 khandhas always have to depend on ruupa. Here all 1st jhana cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu or heart-base. Cittas are also related to ruupa dhamma not only by depending as a ground or base, cittas also have to depend on ruupa as their object if cittas are pancadvara viithi cittas. Here 1st jhaana citta is manodvara viithi citta. Manodvarika cittas have an object which may be one of 6 alternatives. These 6 alternative objects are 1. pasaada ruupa or sense-base material like eye,ear,nose,tongue,body 2. sukhuma ruupa or subtle materials 3. cittas or vinnaanas or consciousness 4. cetasikas or mental factors or mental accompaniments 5. nibbana or absolute peace 6. pannatti or naming(naming of ideas,naming of concepts &abstraction) Again, when manodvarika citta take an object it just take an object from its chosen category. If citta chooses category 1 of pasaada ruupa, the object will be one of 5 alternatives namely eye, ear, nose, tongue, body. If citta chooses category 2 of sukhuma ruupa, the object will be one of 16 alternatives, which are explained in ruupa portion. If citta chooses category 3 of cittas or vinnaanas, the object will be only one of 89 cittas or 121 cittas. If citta chooses category 4 of cetasikas, the object will be one of 52 cetasikas. If citta chooses category 5 of nibbana, the object will be only nibbana. If citta chooses category 6 of pannatti, the object will be just a name which may be concepts, abstraction, conceptualization, just naming. As 1st jhaana is a jhaana citta, the object will be pannatti as all ruupa jhaana take pannatti as their object. There are many many 1st jhaana cittas. There are ajjhatta 1st jhaana cittas, bahiddha 1st jhaana citta,etc etc. And as there are different kammatthaana or samatha kammatthaanas which give rise to 1st jhana, there will be different objects for different 1st jhana cittas. But character-wise all 1st jhaana cittas do take pannatti as their object. The only difference is that there are different naming and conceptualization, which derived from naama or ruupa dhamma initially. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45532 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > The rupa visible object is taken as object by an eye-door process. > The rupa hardness is taken as object by a body-door process. > The rupa odour is taken as object by a nose-door process. > > Only one of these rupas are taken as object at one time as there is > only one type of process arising at one time. Nevertheless, the > rupas visible object, hardness and odour never arise in isolation. > They always arise together (together with a number of other rupas) > as a kalapa. In other words, kalapa is a name (concept) representing > a group of rupas. As a name / concept, kalapa can be taken as object > by a mind-door process, but not as an object of a sense-door > process. In fact, some of the rupas which are fundamental building > blocks of all kalapas (cohesion, space and nutrition) can only be > taken as object by a mind-door process. > > In other words, a mind-door process can take either a paramattha > dhamma or a concept as object. Sense-door processes only take > paramattha dhammas as objects. > > Characteristic / Function / Manifestation / Proximate Cause is a > literary devices used in the commentaries used to help define terms. > I believe that the commentary does not restrict the use of this > literary technique to paramattha dhammas (can't find an example at > the moment). > > Larry, does this help? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Rob M, Thanks for your explanation. I also hope Larry will happy with your explanation. Because you well explained in a clear picture. With respect, Htoo Naing 45533 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:44am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Ken H {Attn: Jon, Htoo, etc.} - Thank you much, Ken H, for focusing again on the same point that Jon and Htoo discussed earlier, i.e. do not concentrate on walking in order to know rupa or the characteristics. This is a misunderstanding of people who are well versed in Paramattha-dhamma principles, but they only know walking meditation as a label. So their superficial understanding of walking meditation led to misunderstanding. Jon has got the right understanding that labelling is not the issue at all. Walking and sitting meditations were recocommended by the Buddha (see MN 39 and MN 53) for the monks to practice at nights. There are many ways you can meditate while walking. Have you read my message to Jon #45479 yet? Ken H: Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. T: Ven. Buddhaghosa broke down the life-span on the time scale in order to explain the impermanence of rupa "from one period of time to the next". But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > You wrote: > ----------- > > The Buddha only provided a direction without > details. Meditation teachers added details of their own; the Ven. > Buddhaghasa also did it his way. > ----------- > > I agree that meditation teachers have added what you call details. > However, Buddhaghosa should not be seen as a teacher of formal > meditation. Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. There was never any intention that we should concentrate on walking in order to know rupa. > > Ken H 45534 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:45am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? > > metta > > Matheesha -------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Matheesha, I hope Tep will be able to explain to you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45535 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:56am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: Hi Ken H {Attn: Jon, Htoo, etc.} - But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. Respectfully, Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Ken H, Jon and all, If it involves contemplation on ruupa according to the earth, water, fire and air element then it sounds like right. When walking there are all 'earth' 'water' 'fire' and 'air' elements. But water element is not perceive through the body. Instead it is perceived through the mind door. 1. when just going to lift off the foot there is 'air' element or vayo-photthabba. Because there becomes lighter and lighter and then the foot is raised up. 2. when the foot is swung there is 'air' element definitely. 3. just before landing there becomes heavier and heavier there is also 'air' element. But in essence there also is 'water' element or apo dhaatu. But as there is no apo-photthabba water element is not perceived through body-door. But that heaviness and flowing down to the ground is element of water. 4. the heel touch the ground or the floor there is 'earth' element or pathavi-photthabba. And endless ruupas are arising through out walking meditation. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45536 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 7:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (375) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are altogether 40 kinds of object for meditation. Any forms of meditation will go into one of these 40 meditations. The only thing different is that vipassanaa or satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations. That is why many many beings who obtained different degrees of calmness before appearing of The Buddha but they never learned anatta, which is the end-product-concept of satipatthaana. Kammatthaana = kamma + thaana Kamma here means 'bhaavana kusala kamma' or 'mental cultivating actions' and thaana means 'the place where that action takes place'. So kammatthaana also means 'bhaavana object'. There are 2 different kinds of bhaavanaas. They are samatha bhaavanaa and vipassanaa bhavanaa. These 2 kinds of mental actions are totally different. And this can be tested by anyone with their own faculties of mind and body. There are 40 kinds of samatha kammatthaanas or 40 objects of samatha- meditation. They are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaanas 2. 10 asubha kammatthaanas 3. 10 anussati kammatthaanas 4. 4 brahmavihaara or 4 brahmacariya kammatthanas 5. 4 aruppa kammatthaanas 6. 1 aharepatikuulasanna kammatthaana 7. 1 catudhaatuvavatthaana kammatthaana. So there are 7 kinds of objects and altogether 40 objects of samatha meditation. Vipassana is based on any of these 40 kammatthaanas or based on naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma with contemplating diligently with clear conprehension and understanding on these naama or ruupa dhamma. Dhamma Thread is now talking on the object of 1st jhaana. And this will appear in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45537 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 8:10am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Jon {Htoo and KenH}- A discussion with you almost always gives me a sense of joy, because there is no intention on anything else beyond trying to understand the Dhamma more clearly. For example, there is no intention to find fault. Jon: > Thanks, Tep, your explanation is helpful. But I think at the same time > it highlights one of the difficulties of this particular label. > 'Walking meditation' seems to be used to mean both meditation *of* walking (i.e., movement of feet, etc., as a form of vipassana/satipatthana) and meditation *while* walking (i.e., > maintaining one's chosen (samatha) meditation subject, as I suspect in intended in the context of purification of obstructing states). Likewise 'sitting meditation' is used by some to mean samatha, by others to refer to vipassana. > > Only by sticking to the terms used in the texts can this kind of > confusion be avoided. But that is a personal preference of mine, >and I know others have other approaches. T: As I explained to KenH in a message a little while ago [Ven. Buddhaghosa broke down the lifespan on the time scale in order to explain the impermanence of rupa "from one period of time to the next". But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644.], the broken-down of leg and foot movement is for the purpose of "seeing" mahabhuta-rupa. The earlier story of my walking meditation experience is a "meditation while walking", in which the mindfulness and the thorough comprehension (sampajanna) are on the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, standing and turning back). The result has been quite good in the sense that both rupa and nama arise with no mental attachment, while sati and sampajanna are unbroken, sometimes. I agree with you about the lack of a standard description. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Tep > > >T: Why is labelling that important? > > 45538 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 8:29am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi James (and Tep) Hi Jon, Jon: Hope you don't mind if I butt in ('creep' in?) here. James: ;-)) Oh, I guess you are welcome to creep in anytime you want. This is your group after all. I am going to try and be nice and calm while I respond, even though your approach really irritates me to no end- the appearing to agree and then turning everything around…grrrrr… You seem to know just how to push my buttons! ;-) Jon: Did the Buddha teach 'walking meditation'? As Tep suggests, let's not get hung up on a name or label. I think we can all agree that if he did it was as part of the development of samatha (tranquillity) or the development of vipassana (insight). James: Hmmm…well, yes. We agree! Names and labels are not important. Those who are truly wise don't get hung up on the use of words. Jon: Samatha and vipassana are forms of kusala that occur through the mind-door (only), that is to say, that do not include any element of action through speech or body. James: Hmmm…now it seems that things are beginning to switch. Now you are suggesting that samatha and vipassana cannot occur in relation to the body. Your position is still unclear, not strongly stated, but I feel a sense of unease. I know that the Buddha taught that nama and rupa are inseparable in the sensual realms. Jon: For example, if there is metta now, or reflection on a point of dhamma, and it is accompanied by panna that knows the kusala (tranquil) quality of the moment, that is samatha bhavana. James: A lot of vague terminology: "metta now", "reflection on a point", "quality of the moment" etc. which leave me unsure as to the exact meaning. This is a transitional smoke screen. Jon: If there occurs spontaneously a level of attention to the presently arising visible object or sound, or attachment or aversion, or any other dhamma, so that there is the direct experience of that dhamma, that is mundane insight. James: Now, here you are saying that any form of attention to rupa is "mundane insight"-which is, of course, not that good compared to supramundane insight (the ultimate goal). Jon, slowly you have moved from agreeing to me to subtly disagreeing with me. Is it any wonder that I say your subterfuge gives me the creeps? Jon: In the case of samatha, high levels of attainment (such as jhana and the approach to jhana) are typically (but not necessarily) associated with a certain austere lifestyle and a seated posture alternated with periods of walking on a suitable walkway, and there are plenty of references in the suttas to this kind of activity. James: A neutral statement to segue to your next killer statements. Jon: When the Buddha praised this kind of lifestyle, he was I think praising the the high level of kusala involved, and the qualities required to achieve those attainments. But I don't think we are being invited to *equate* the development of samatha and vipassana per se with a particular lifestyle or set of austere practices, nor to see that lifestyle as being particularly conducive to the development of samatha or vipassana for all and sundry. James: Oh, okay, let's just all give up the farm! According to you Jon, it isn't the practice or the lifestyle which leads to kusala states, it is the previous accumulations. Never mind that the Buddha gave up the householder life and meditated under the Bodhi tree to achieve enlightenment, because he had all the proper accumulations he could have just stayed in his palace and done the same thing in the arms of his concubines. ;-) Jon: I think the primary condition for the development of a given form of kusala is one's previously accumulated tendencies for that form of kusala. James: Oh yes, now we are getting the full-fledged Jon talking! Jon: Now I think all of us here must have developed both samatha and vipassana in previous existences, otherwise we would not have the strong interest in the teachings that we do, so with the right supporting conditions in this lifetime, and these include of course moral encouragement and a sound theoretical understanding, there can be moments of tranquillity and insight development, even though we are not at the same advanced level as those who lived at the time of the Buddha. James: Nothing but pandering to the group. Tell them all that they have no choices or control, and then suggest that everything may still turn out for the best in the end. Oh, how sweet. Jon: As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as explained by the adze handle simile. James: In other words, just study the teachings, don't do anything else `special', and maybe everything will turn out okay over time. Possibly, but that isn't the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta (with some aversion mixed in), James 45539 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 8:47am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha (and Htoo) - You asked : Hi Htoo, > > Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? Htoo wrote (#45534) : Dear Matheesha, I hope Tep will be able to explain to you. Tep: Well, I'll explain to you as a well-informed bookworm should. First, what is vimutti ? It is the deliverance, or release as the result of clear knowing after avijja (ignorance) has been eradicated. Second, what is ceto-vimutti? It is the 'deliverance of mind', because ceto = mind and vimutti = deliverance. But there is more to say: ceto-vimutti is the state of mind that is free from greed, hatred and ignorance Metta-cetovimutti is the deliverance of mind that is boundless, since loving-kindness is one of the four boundless states(brahma-vihaara). Maybe the above answer is too brief. If there is anymore question, please feel free to ask me further. If I can't answer it, somebody else will be able to. Respectfully, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" > > wrote: > > Hi Htoo, 45540 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 9:13am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi James, Jon and others - I have been entertained by the Jon-James dialogue in the message #45538. Jon: When the Buddha praised this kind of lifestyle, he was I think praising the the high level of kusala involved, and the qualities required to achieve those attainments. But I don't think we are being invited to *equate* the development of samatha and vipassana per se with a particular lifestyle or set of austere practices, nor to see that lifestyle as being particularly conducive to the development of samatha or vipassana for all and sundry. James: Oh, okay, let's just all give up the farm! According to you Jon, it isn't the practice or the lifestyle which leads to kusala states, it is the previous accumulations. Never mind that the Buddha gave up the householder life and meditated under the Bodhi tree to achieve enlightenment, because he had all the proper accumulations he could have just stayed in his palace and done the same thing in the arms of his concubines. ;-) Tep: I think Jon either tries to rewrite the Buddha's Teachings to fit his lifestyle, or he is asking for a compromise -- an easy way out of the difficult kind of lifestyle ("Holy life") of the ariyans. --------------------------------------- Jon: As long as we maintain our present earnest interest in the teachings, there will be more tranquillity and insight in our lives, and if we give it a chance this can be verified over time, as explained by the adze handle simile. James: In other words, just study the teachings, don't do anything else `special', and maybe everything will turn out okay over time. Possibly, but that isn't the Noble Eightfold Path. Tep: Jon, it depends very much on what you mean by "earnest interest in the teachings" and how you are converting that into real actions. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Hi James (and Tep) > 45541 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:50am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. matheesha333 Hi Sarah, S:I'd been encouraged (erroneously)to > believe there were all sorts of wondrous experiences and insights. M: Mmm.. would you mind telling us about these experiences? We might all learn something from it. > S: Well, I'd rather discuss more on nekkhama anyway. How do you understand > nekkhama? M: This is difficult. Please remember im no abhidhamma scholar so im talking from meanings rather than definitions. I might use convenient/popular terms as well, quite unknowingly, as it is not my mother tongue. As I understand it, its a mental attitude, like wanting to 'move away from the light', only in this case it is all worldy phenomena (sights,sounds,sensations..). Away from the harsh light of fabrications and sink into the cool 'darkness' of the unconditioned. It is a mental attitude which generates a movement of the mind. Consciousness stops longing for proliferation in the sense spheres. Subtle bliss starts arising possibly because the mind moves towards rest from grasping. M: > > Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm > > trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. > ... > S: Giving up of what? Giving up of worldly possessions or giving up of > defilements? M: Letting go of all worldly phenomena (mentally that is -is there anything else?), because everything is of the three characteristics. > M:> Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of > > giving up.> S: yes, I agree - panna for the sake of giving up the idea of self and > other kilesa as I see it. How about you? M: In a sense the whole path is about letting go. Sila - letting go of unwholesome actions. Samadhi- letting go of 5 hindrences/defilements and other agitations of the mind. Panna- understanding the true nature of existence -which leads to letting go of all conditioned phenomena. But the fetters tie us to phenomena. Even though a sothapanna experiences nibbana momentarily his 'mind' is 'brought back' to the sensory (kama/rupa/arupa) world because of the fetters. Jhana gives stregnth to the mind to pull against the fetters and reexperience phala citta again. Jhana is a very powerful thing. It would be difficult to act against the fetters with a mind without strong samadhi. :) sorry if all this is a bit 'rich'. I might be delusional for all you know! Not claiming anything. I might be wrong, but I feel comfortable right now with my understanding and it has withstood the test of time. Its a few hours since my last post, and im getting more verbose now. M> > I like the zennies at times like this. > ... > S: please say a little more:-/ M: I know little about zen practice. Mostly from the lady who does the zen class after I attend to mine. They dont believe in talking about the dhamma -just experiencing. Cuts out the vitakka, vicara. They just use bare awareness, with their eyes open and attend to phenomena. When my mind is quiet after practice, I find this attractive. > p.s I'm not doing it now, but I try to remember to compose any long > messages off-line in a word doc in case they get lost like yours did. M: I usually do ... thanks im on call today. So this is giving me a nice break. metta Matheesha 45542 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:02am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Thank you Tep, I had a vague idea that it was the first jhana based on metta practice, ie metta as object of meditation. But you feel this means more than that ie-attaining nibbaana. Do you know how ceto-vimutti differs from panna-vimutti? We hear of arahaths who are released in 'both ways'. The other variety is those released only with panna-vimutti. There is no category of arahaths which is released only with ceto-vimutti as far as I know. So I was under the impression that ceto-vimutti didnt refer to final liberation. Any comments from anyone are welcome. People are too polite on this list :) metta Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Matheesha (and Htoo) - > > > You asked : Hi Htoo, > > > > Do you know what metta ceto vimutti is? > > Htoo wrote (#45534) : Dear Matheesha, I hope Tep will be able to > explain to you. > > Tep: Well, I'll explain to you as a well-informed bookworm should. > > First, what is vimutti ? > > It is the deliverance, or release as the result of clear knowing after > avijja (ignorance) has been eradicated. > > Second, what is ceto-vimutti? > > It is the 'deliverance of mind', because ceto = mind and vimutti = > deliverance. But there is more to say: ceto-vimutti is the state of mind > that is free from greed, hatred and ignorance > > Metta-cetovimutti is the deliverance of mind that is boundless, since > loving-kindness is one of the four boundless states(brahma- vihaara). > > Maybe the above answer is too brief. If there is anymore question, > please feel free to ask me further. If I can't answer it, somebody else > will be able to. > > > Respectfully, > > > Tep > > > ===== > 45543 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:18am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] matheesha333 Hi Jon, J:> Furthermore, wrong practice leads only to more wrong practice. Practice > that is undertaken with an idea of self, for example, cannot somehow > 'morph' into right practice. M: Allow me to comment on this. If you were to sit down and with a mind suffused with one-pointdness of a jhana, we to maintain watch the arising and passing away of the 5 aggregates, insight would arise, that there is no self, because everything we ever thought of as self would be fully explored and there would be nothing permanent to be considered as self. The person who started doing this would have had a self view. Now he doesnt. metta Matheesha 45544 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:37am Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha, Jon, Htoo, Phil, James, Kel and more ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Thank you Tep, > > I had a vague idea that it was the first jhana based on metta > practice, ie metta as object of meditation. But you feel this means > more than that ie-attaining nibbaana. > > Do you know how ceto-vimutti differs from panna-vimutti? We hear of > arahaths who are released in 'both ways'. The other variety is those > released only with panna-vimutti. There is no category of arahaths > which is released only with ceto-vimutti as far as I know. So I was > under the impression that ceto-vimutti didnt refer to final > liberation. > > Any comments from anyone are welcome. People are too polite on this > list :) > > metta > > Matheesha > > Tep: If you could prove that panna-vimutti is all we need to attain Nibbana, you'd probably please many Abhidhamma devotees. Telling them that they need both ceto-vimutti (awareness release, or deliverance of mind) and panna-vimutti (discernment release) will not make you their favorite. According to AN II.30, you'll need both: "Defiled by passion, the mind is not released. Defiled by ignorance, discernment does not develop. Thus from the fading of passion is there awareness-release. From the fading of ignorance is there discernment-release." [ Anguttara Nikaya II.30 Vijja-bhagiya Sutta, A Share in Clear Knowing] So, according to the above sutta, is it correct to make a deduction that wisdom development alone -- without samatha bhavana in tandem for releasing the mind from passion -- there is no way anyone can fully develop panna to the lokuttara state? M: People are too polite on this list :) T: Do you mean a) they usually give polite comments, or b) they politely refuse to tell you when you are wrong? :>|) My answer in terms of probabilities is a) 90% of the time, b) 10% of the time. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45545 From: "mnease" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view mlnease Hi Andrew, First, TB's translation is editorial--that is, he injects his own opinion into his translation to argue his view, in my opinion. Second, the attadi.t.thi (self-view) eradicated by the stream enterer is one very specific mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view. He can no longer take any of the aggregates for self, but can still certainly experience papa~nca. This is how I see it, anyway... mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew" To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:25 PM Subject: [dsg] Papanca and self-view > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? 45546 From: "mlnease" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction mlnease Hi Again Andrew, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > First, TB's translation is editorial--that is, he injects his own opinion > into his translation to argue his view, in my opinion. I should have written 'definition' rather than 'translation'; > Second, the attadi.t.thi (self-view) eradicated by the stream enterer is one > very specific mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or > 'eternalist' view. He can no longer take any of the aggregates for self, > but can still certainly experience papa~nca. and I should have written, 'eradicated by stream-entry', rather than 'eradicated by the stream enterer'. mike 45547 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 1:56pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Htoo, my Dhamma Friend - Thank you for providing information for the 4 mahabhuta-dhaatus associated with the "walking meditation". Sincerely, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > > wrote: > > Hi Ken H {Attn: Jon, Htoo, etc.} - > > > > But the broken down of walking motion into "stages > of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate > rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air > elements. > VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. > > Respectfully, > > Tep > -------------------------------------------------- > ---------------------- > Dear Tep, Ken H, Jon and all, > > If it involves contemplation on ruupa according to the earth, water, > fire and air element then it sounds like right. > > When walking there are all 'earth' 'water' 'fire' and 'air' elements. > But water element is not perceive through the body. Instead it is > perceived through the mind door. > > 1. when just going to lift off the foot > > there is 'air' element or vayo-photthabba. Because there becomes > lighter and lighter and then the foot is raised up. > > 2. when the foot is swung > > there is 'air' element definitely. > > 3. just before landing there becomes heavier and heavier > > there is also 'air' element. But in essence there also is 'water' > element or apo dhaatu. But as there is no apo-photthabba water > element > is not perceived through body-door. But that heaviness and flowing > down > to the ground is element of water. > > 4. the heel touch the ground or the floor > > there is 'earth' element or pathavi-photthabba. > > And endless ruupas are arising through out walking meditation. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 45548 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. dacostacharles I like this post ----- Original Message ----- From: matheesha To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 15 May, 2005 13:54 Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. Hi Sarah, I read your troubling experiences as a nun. I'm sorry this was like this. I can understand more where 'you are coming from'. I wrote a detailed reply to you on Friday, but yahoo seems to have swollowed it as it sometimes does. I was 'practicing' :) today and I feel a lot of nekkhamma right about now. So i dont feel like mental proliferation right now. Today it was so clear to me that path was about giving up. I'm trying to balance it with my lay life and commitments as you are. Just wanted to say that the purpose of panna, is for the sake of giving up. Giving up (letting go, if you like) is to get a glimpse of nibbana, as sankhara stops appearing. I like the zennies at times like this. Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott <....> 45549 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:35pm Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Hi Rob, I am proposing a third category, "formations". A kalapa (compound of rupas)is neither a reality nor a concept. It is conditioned but asabhava (empty). Similar to a kalapa are shapes and movement. Experience is formations of realities and concepts. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Larry, > > The rupa visible object is taken as object by an eye-door process. > The rupa hardness is taken as object by a body-door process. > The rupa odour is taken as object by a nose-door process. > > Only one of these rupas are taken as object at one time as there is > only one type of process arising at one time. Nevertheless, the > rupas visible object, hardness and odour never arise in isolation. > They always arise together (together with a number of other rupas) > as a kalapa. In other words, kalapa is a name (concept) representing > a group of rupas. As a name / concept, kalapa can be taken as object > by a mind-door process, but not as an object of a sense-door > process. In fact, some of the rupas which are fundamental building > blocks of all kalapas (cohesion, space and nutrition) can only be > taken as object by a mind-door process. > > In other words, a mind-door process can take either a paramattha > dhamma or a concept as object. Sense-door processes only take > paramattha dhammas as objects. > > Characteristic / Function / Manifestation / Proximate Cause is a > literary devices used in the commentaries used to help define terms. > I believe that the commentary does not restrict the use of this > literary technique to paramattha dhammas (can't find an example at > the moment). > > Larry, does this help? > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 45550 From: "Larry" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 3:39pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (372) lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are > > 1. vitakka or 'initial application' > 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' > 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' > 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' > 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' > Hi Htoo, I believe piiti and sukha belong to different khandhas but I've forgotten which is which. Isn't one vedana and the other sankhara? Larry 45551 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self Evan_Stamato... Hello Christine, Certainly you can send yourself metta. In fact, all metta meditations that I have heard of or practiced begin with giving oneself metta and then directing metta to others starting from those closest to you then those further and furter away. I remember on the first 3 day retreat I went to, it was led by Ven. Mahinda. He is well known for his well developed metta ability. We started most of our meditation sessions by doing metta first and then going on to anapanasati. At one stage, he asked all of us to direct our metta to him. We did so with our feeble attempts and then he said that he would direct his meditation towards us. I felt this great wave of warmth and power emanating from him that I was surprised. It made me realise how powerful this sort of meditation can be. However, it also made me think about what metta is. I could only conclude that it is a mind "state" - that is the mind's desire for all to be well & happy. Of course there are two possibilities for what I "felt". 1. It was phychological on my behalf - ie because I was expecting something to happen, I felt something or 2. The metta mind, well developed is so powerfull that the minds of others can sense it. Anyway, that experience, whether rightly or wrongly has left the impression on me that metta is far more powerful and important to the practice than I originally thought. Christine, if you are interested, I have a CD of Ven. Mahinda taking a metta meditation session. One can sit down, put the CD on and do the meditation. It takes about 20 minutes. If you would like a copy, you can send me your details directly to my email address and I will send you a copy. In fact, if anyone else on this forum would like a copy I am happy to make a copy for whoever would like one. With Metta, Evan 45552 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:16pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Hi Tep, Hmm..not trying to be anyone's favourite :) here to learn and share. ----------------- Bhikkhus, there are seven persons evident in the world: What seven: those released both ways, released through wisdom, those with body witness, those come to righteousness of view, those released in faith, those living according to the Teaching, and those living according to faith. Bhikkhus, who is released both ways: Here bhikkhus, a certain person experiences with the body those immaterial attainments and also with wisdom sees the destruction of desires. To such a one is said released both ways. Bhikkhus, to such ones, I do not say abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. Bhikkhus, who is released through wisdom? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not .experience those immaterial attainments with the body, seeing with wisdom his desires are destroyed. To this one is said, released through wisdom. Bhikkhus, to such a one too I do not say, abide diligently. What is the reason: They have done it diligently and it is impossible that they be negligent. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/070-kitagiri-e1.htm ----------------------------- But I'm sure you'll agree, there is no ceto-vimutti alone. It is simply 'fading of passion' and vimutti in that instance does not refer to nibbana. This might also help to clarify: http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an08-063.html There is a panna-vimukta alone as you can see from the first sutta - but note that there is no comment about material jhana - they only lack immaterial jhana. IMO there needs to be atleast the first material jhana to become an arahath. I once ran across a sutta in the AN which said that sothapannas and once returners only need a partial amount of samadhi, while nonreturners and arahaths need samma samadhi. With reference to the growing indirya of the various stages (again ref in the suttas) I would say that samma samadhi in that reffered to the four material jhanas -as is often its definition (and rarely not). So IMO Arahaths atleast need the first material jhana level of samadhi, as mentioned in some suttas. (sorry about the lack of references!) >T: So, according to the above sutta, is it correct to make a deduction that > wisdom development alone -- without samatha bhavana in tandem for > releasing the mind from passion -- there is no way anyone can fully > develop panna to the lokuttara state? M: Developing wisdom to the lokuttara state happens in a sothapanna. The sutta you posted speaks about arahathood. This requires some explanation, bear with me :) Sathi gives rise to samadhi. Sathi on one object gives rise to samadhi, much faster than sathi on multiple changing objects, because samadhi is simply one-pointedness (citta-ekaggatha). Samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana both give rise to samadhi, but to varying degrees, as you can see from that. Those who do vipassana bhavana using prolonged sathi, give rise to more samadhi, than those who would occasionally note the dhammas. The question is what do you mean by 'wisdom development alone'. If it is just sutamaya panna and cintamaya panna, i think it would be very difficult. Better chance for those with prolonged mindfulness. Much better for those who do both S&V. Thats just what I think. The speed of attainment is determined by the maturity of the faculties. I just dont think anyone should feel they dont have enough kamma- its a crime to have this human birth and not even try! Theres hardly anyone who cannot attain a jhana in atleast a few months if they give it a proper go, while living a lay life. It might not be a great thundering text book type strong jhana which monks can achieve but it is enough for the initial stages. Yes, there is such thing as a weak jhana -see ven mogallana's training in the suttas! (Im getting sleepy now) Tep, while the sutta you posted talks of both samatha and vipassana, it is very difficult to seperate the two, to say that only one is happening and not the other. This is why I think there is no clear differentiation in the sathipattaana descriptions - and it gives rise to both Samma Samadhi and Samma Gnana as the 8th and 9th steps of the 10 fold path. Sathi--> Samadhi-->Panna My ideas are based on what i learnt, thought and experienced, each influencing the other two. Dont mean to tread on any toes, just putting across an alternate viewpoint. > M: People are too polite on this list :) > > T: Do you mean a) they usually give polite comments, or b) they > politely refuse to tell you when you are wrong? :>|) > M: lol! I was thinking about all those 'excuse me for butting in' type of thing, when the finers are itching on the keyboard! metta Matheesha 45553 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:18pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self Evan_Stamato... Phil, If one is weak in metta, then all the more reason for practicing metta. If that practice is incorrect, then so be it but not to try at all is worse. To try and fail is better. To try and succeed is the best of all of coarse but we do have help with monks available to show us the way. After all, not many people can say that they sat down in their first meditation session (say anapanasati) and enteredd jhana or gained wisdom of the rise and fall of phenomena. Time and practice if required and that goes for metta as much as for other forms of meditation. With (weak and agitated) Metta, Evan Ph: Metta is powerful, definitely. When someone's citta *is* metta, it is powerful. And the Buddha taught it - we know that from the metta sutta. But for me it's very obvious that metta doesn't arise because we want it to. I used to sit and think about metta and believe that it was metta. It was just more of that self-pleasuring I mentionned before! The metta sutta is another sutta that is describing a person whose citta stream is in a very refined condition. It's a very different thing when modern-world folk sit down when they are feeling agitated and think they are generating metta, in my opinion.I guess the same thing goes for intentionally experiencing sati, though I'm not quite as sure as that. 45554 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:41pm Subject: Vism.XIV,158 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 158. (18)-(21) As regards the supramundane, firstly, in the case of the path consciousness having the first jhana they should be understood to be as stated in the case of the first fine-material-sphere consciousness (9). The paths classed as belonging to the second jhana, etc., should be understood to be as stated in the cases [respectively] of the second fine-material-sphere jhana, and so on (10)-(13). But the difference here is absence of compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii),67 constancy of the abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), and supramundaneness. ---------------------- Note 67. 'Because the path consciousnesses have nibbana as their object and because compassion, gladness, etc., have living beings as their object, there is no compassion, etc., in the path' (Pm. 491). 45555 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:50pm Subject: Nina lbidd2 Hi all, Nina is back but it may take a few days for Yahoo to get back to normal. She asks if anyone has questions for her in the next few days to put "Nina" in the subject box so she doesn't miss them. Larry 45556 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 4:59pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi Evan Thanks for asking these questions, making these comments about my overly-confident comments. It was a reminder to me that it's a bit silly for a beginner like me to make such broad comments about a practice that has come down through the centuries and helped so many millions of people. But I'll probably continue being silly... :) > If one is weak in metta, then all the more reason for practicing metta. > If that practice is incorrect, then so be it but not to try at all is > worse. I went through a period here in Japan during which I was incapable of riding the crowded train home without drinking a beer first. There was so much aversion. And on my days off, if I went out in crowded places with my wife, again, I would like to have a beer. I was very self-conscious about being a non-Japanese, feeling alienated, easily angry. I atarted to use metta meditation intentionally in those days to deal with what was in fact (still is at times) a mild form of mental illness. If I did it in the morning, it made it easier to deal with aversion-causing situations, that's true. (Didn't stop the temper outbursts though) So I can appreciate the therapeutic benefits of this kind of practice. And maybe it provided me with conditions in which I would have more capacity to appreciate Abhidhamma, with its emphasis on lack of ability to control the arising of cittas (maybe that is an emphasis that is stronger through Kh Sujin's teaching rather than Abhidhamma itself - I know Rob M, an Abhidhamma teacher/authority whom I respect greatly, does metta meditation.) Now there is hardly ever aversion from the kind of situations that used to cause it, because there is no one there, in the ultimate sense, to be annoyed by. And therefore there are less obstructions to metta arising during the day. And I come to appreciate unexpected metta, and this unexpected metta has who knows what kind of conditioning power for more of the same. As I joked once, if the brahma-viharas are the "divine abodes" how can a guy like me move in so easily? So yes, if metta is weak, you may be right, let's try to develop it - maybe. As long as we realize that what we take for metta when we sit down and try to tap into it may be something very different, attachment to pleasant feeling, for example, which wouldn't move us closer to liberation, though it might make life easier in the short run, and - yes - might help to provide stable emtional conditions for insight to develop in a truer, deeper way. I guess my point is that although I have come to speak out against intentionally developing metta, I agree with you that there might be benefits from trying to do so at the beginning. Maybe it did help me in ways I can't know. But I think we should be aware that metta that arises beyond our intentional control is a different reality. And that lasting liberation cannot come through believing that "beautiful cetasikas" (sobbhana cetasikas) such as metta can be generated intentionally. Metta, Phil 45557 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self lbidd2 Phil: "I guess my point is that although I have come to speak out against intentionally developing metta, I agree with you that there might be benefits from trying to do so at the beginning. Maybe it did help me in ways I can't know. But I think we should be aware that metta that arises beyond our intentional control is a different reality. And that lasting liberation cannot come through believing that "beautiful cetasikas" (sobbhana cetasikas) such as metta can be generated intentionally." Hi Phil, I think you are describing the difference between prompted and unprompted consciousness. Also, you left out one thing: there is benefit to others. Larry 45558 From: "Philip" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi Larry (and CHarles) > Also, you left out one thing: there is benefit > to others. Thanks. Good point. But there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people don't really exist in the ultimate sense. We let go of irritations more easily. In the traditional metta method, assigning people to categories (respected person, neutral person, difficult person etc) it seems to me there are so many stories. People come to be seen in a kind of rigid, lasting way when we know that is wrong view. There is jsut nama and rupa, just khandas. I think that we can learn to let go of these storeis through Abhihamma, and when we let go of stories about people maybe we can benefit them in a more lasting way instead of assigning them a role as "difficult person" etc... Metta, Phil p.s Charles, I was going to get back to you this morning, but won't have time. Thanks for your questions/comments and catch you later. 45559 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self Evan_Stamato... Hi Phil, This is an "anomaly" that Venerable Mahinda pointed out with metta from the beginning. All other teachings view beings as being composed of a number of "aggregates" which form together due to karmic results whereas metta views beings as separate beings without viewing their constituent aggregates as such. I tend to see this "duality of concepts" in the same way as quantum physics sees things. For example, in some instances light displays wave properties and can be modelled using wave equations and in other instances it displays particle behaviour and cannot be modelled using wave equations. That is just the way it is and there is no correlation other than it is the same object displaying these two different properties at different times properties. In other words, I don't try to correlate metta with the other teachings - they just work and I am satisfied with that. Others may be able to do a better job of it but I don't know whether it is possible to correlate the two. With Metta, Evan Phil: Thanks. Good point. But there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people don't really exist in the ultimate sense. We let go of irritations more easily. In the traditional metta method, assigning people to categories (respected person, neutral person, difficult person etc) it seems to me there are so many stories. People come to be seen in a kind of rigid, lasting way when we know that is wrong view. There is jsut nama and rupa, just khandas. I think that we can learn to let go of these storeis through Abhihamma, and when we let go of stories about people maybe we can benefit them in a more lasting way instead of assigning them a role as "difficult person" etc... 45560 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 5:47pm Subject: Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > I am proposing a third category, "formations". A kalapa (compound of > rupas)is neither a reality nor a concept. It is conditioned but > asabhava (empty). Similar to a kalapa are shapes and movement. > Experience is formations of realities and concepts. I would assume that a being (a set of five aggregates) and a mental state (citta + a set of cetasikas) would also fall into this new category of "formations". I am intrigued by your comment that a kalapa is not a concept. Is this because it is conditioned and you believe that concepts cannot be conditioned? Metta, Rob M :-) 45561 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 9:13pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self buddhistmedi... Hi Matheesha {Attn: Jon, Htoo, James, Phil, Howard and others} - I am sorry to inform you that both Web links of yours only led to an error message. M: (quoted MN II.70) "Bhikkhus, who is released through wisdom? Bhikkhus, a certain person does not .experience those immaterial attainments with the body, seeing with wisdom his desires are destroyed. To this one is said, released through wisdom." M: There is a panna-vimukta alone as you can see from the first sutta - but note that there is no comment about material jhana - they only lack immaterial jhana. T: The panna-vimutti is not separated from samatha at all, according to the following sutta! Anguttara Nikaya IX.44 Pannavimutti Sutta Released Through Discernment [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." [end quote] -------------------------- M: Developing wisdom to the lokuttara state happens in a sothapanna. The sutta you posted speaks about arahathood. This requires some explanation, bear with me :) T: The explanation is fine, but I don't understand why AN II.30 is about arahathood. Of course, the arahathood is the end result, but shouldn't the starting point (to develop the lokuttara panna) be far away from that? --------------------------- M: Tep, while the sutta you posted talks of both samatha and vipassana, it is very difficult to seperate the two, to say that only one is happening and not the other. This is why I think there is no clear differentiation in the sathipattaana descriptions - and it gives rise to both Samma Samadhi and Samma Gnana as the 8th and 9th steps of the 10 fold path. Sathi--> Samadhi-->Panna. T: I guess the word "Sathi" above is the same as Sati. It was a keen observation of yours about the intertwined occurrence of samatha and vipassana in Satipatthana bhavana. For example, in the "body in body" contemplation (kaye-kayanupassi viharati) both sati and sampajanna are developed together. The DN 22 Commentary explains that the samatha calm (or tranquillity) is "stated by mindfulness" while "insight(vipassana) is stated by clear comprehension". So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna. ------------------------------ M: My ideas are based on what i learnt, thought and experienced, each influencing the other two. Dont mean to tread on any toes, just putting across an alternate viewpoint. T: You have done very well indeed. Respectfully yours, Tep ======= 45562 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 9:31pm Subject: [chocolate /was Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello KenH, > > I've been enjoying your posts lately - > hoping all the activity on-list means you have blunted your dhamma > sword :-) > Looking forward to seeing you, Andrew T, and Steve this weekend. > > Eight Precepts :-) Hmmm ..... > "Chocolate is not a medicine, chocolate is not a medicine" > Thanks Christine, it will be good to see the gang again - what a pity Azita lives that little bit too far away. But we might lure her back when the weather warms up. ------------------- > Eight Precepts :-) Hmmm ..... "Chocolate is not a medicine, chocolate is not a medicine" ----------------- Actually, I think chocolate is a medicine. Didn't Steve tell us that? Mind you, we are going to be suspicious if you have suddenly contracted the required disease. :-) KenH 45563 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Rob: "I would assume that a being (a set of five aggregates) and a mental state (citta + a set of cetasikas) would also fall into this new category of "formations". I am intrigued by your comment that a kalapa is not a concept. Is this because it is conditioned and you believe that concepts cannot be conditioned?" Hi Rob, Yes on both counts. And also because two realities doesn't seem to make a concept or symbol. Their multiplicity seems to be real but as a group there is of course no sabhava (own nature). Without sabhava a formation can't be a direct object of consciousness, only a formation of consciousness. Hence it can't be known but it can be desired in a vague, uninformed sort of way. This vagary goes a long way in explaining ignorance. We could say formations are concepts but I see concept as a linguistic device while formation is a kind of mental synthesis. Maybe a philosophy of knowlege or language would marry these two but that's over my head. Larry 45564 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self lbidd2 Phil: "there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people don't really exist in the ultimate sense". Hi Phil, I agree, but understanding doesn't seem to be something we can give to others. Compassion, loving kindness, appreciation, and equanimity can be given freely to all without limit. Try it on the train or in the street. Even if it only makes the smallest difference, that's something. Larry 45565 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 195 - Enthusiasm/piiti (m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] Píti has many intensities. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) and the Atthasåliní (I, Part IV, Chapter 1, 115,116) explain that there are five kinds of píti. We read in the Visuddhimagga: * "… But it is of five kinds as minor happiness, momentary happiness, showering happiness, uplifting happiness, and pervading (rapturous) happiness. Herein, minor happiness is only able to raise the hairs on the body. Momentary happiness is like flashes of lightning at different moments. Showering happiness breaks over the body again and again like waves on the sea shore. Uplifting happiness can be powerful enough to levitate the body and make it spring into the air… But when pervading (rapturous happiness) arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation."(IV, 98) * Píti is able to condition bodily phenomena. The “uplifting happiness” which is the fourth kind of píti can even levitate the body. One example given by the Visuddhimagga and the Atthasåliní is the case of a young woman whose parents did not allow her to go to the monastery to listen to the Dhamma. She looked at the shrine which was lit by moonlight, saw people worshipping and circumambulating the shrine and heard the chanting. Then “uplifting happiness” made her jump into the air and arrive at the monastery before her parents. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45566 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:20pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] kenhowardau Hi Tep, You wrote: -------------------------- > Thank you much, Ken H, for focusing again on the same point that Jon and Htoo discussed earlier, i.e. do not concentrate on walking in order to know rupa or the characteristics. This is a misunderstanding of people who are well versed in Paramattha-dhamma principles, but they only know walking meditation as a label. So their superficial understanding of walking meditation led to misunderstanding. ----------------------------- I was referring to the description you gave of your own walking meditation. In 45323, you said: "When I am fully aware of each movement of the body (walking, stopping, standing, turning back) and when I know its begining and its ending, that is knowing ruupa." ----------------------------- T: > Jon has got the right understanding that labelling is not the issue at all. Walking and sitting meditations were recocommended by the Buddha (see MN 39 and MN 53) for the monks to practice at nights. There are many ways you can meditate while walking. Have you read my message to Jon #45479 yet? ----------------------------- Yes, you quoted those suttas as saying: "'We shall be devoted to wakefulness. During the day, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the first watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states. In the middle watch of the night, lying on the right side in the lion's posture, keeping one foot overlapping the other, mindful and aware of the time of waking, we will sleep. In the last watch of the night, while walking and sitting, we will purify our minds of obstructing states." I'm not sure if you and I agree or not. Walking and sitting are what we all do in the first and last watch, and reclining is what we do in the middle watch. The monks aspired to purify their minds at those times in whichever posture they happened to be. Should we imply from that that they practised mindfulness of sitting, walking and reclining? I say, no, but I'm not sure if you agree or not. In that message, you also said: "The Buddha only provided a direction without details. Meditation teachers added details of their own" That's where I came in - saying that the meditation teachers should have kept out of it because there was no such direction in the first place. I also said Buddhaghosa should not be seen as one of those [formal] meditation teachers. ----------------------------------------- Ken H: > > Nina has explained (in message# 41931) that Buddhaghosa described walking when he was teaching about dhammas and their characteristics. He began by giving the example of a man with a 100- year lifespan and he divided that lifespan, firstly into 10 decades, and then into smaller and smaller periods right down to the stages of individual steps he took while walking (and then further to moments of citta). The whole purpose was to describe how rupa never lasts long enough to continue from one period of time to the next. > > .............. T: > Ven. Buddhaghosa broke down the life-span on the time scale in order to explain the impermanence of rupa "from one period of time to the next". But the broken down of walking motion into "stages of individual steps" is not timewise: the purpose is to contemplate rupa in details, according to the earth, water, fire and air elements. VM XXII, 63 & 64, page 644. ----------------------- I have just checked Nina's message again, and Buddhaghosa does indeed break walking into stages "timewise." You said to Nina: "Next he divides a single footstep into six parts as 'lifting up', 'shifting > forward', 'shifting sideways', 'lowering down', 'placing down', and 'fixing> down'. VM XX, 62" And then you gave the following quote from the Vissudhimagga. Please read it again: "He attributes the three characteristics to materiality according to 'disappearance of what grows old in each stage' by means of these six parts into which he has thus divided. ... ... wherever they arise, there they cease stage by stage, section by section, term by term, each without reaching the next part: therefore they are impermanent, painful, not-self " VM XX, 64-65. So, Buddhaghosa does divide walking time-wise. However, we were both right because, later, he also divides it element-wise. :-) Ken H 45567 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote: > Hi Again Andrew, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" > wrote: > > > First, TB's translation is editorial--that is, he injects his own > opinion > > into his translation to argue his view, in my opinion. > > I should have written 'definition' rather than 'translation'; > > > Second, the attadi.t.thi (self-view) eradicated by the stream > enterer is one > > very specific mental factor which falls into the category > of 'existence' or > > 'eternalist' view. He can no longer take any of the aggregates for > self, > > but can still certainly experience papa~nca. > > and I should have written, 'eradicated by stream-entry', rather than > 'eradicated by the stream enterer'. Hi Mike Corrections noted. I didn't quote Ven Thanissaro's note in full (but gave the necessary reference for those wanting to check) but the extract I selected was, I believe, faithful to the remaining sentences. To be fair, the note may not have been intended as a comprehensive definition of the term "papanca". In any event, it does give a different, more selective impression than Htoo's message #45444 which I take to be the standard Theravada line ie that papanca stems from tanha, mana and ditthi (not just the self-view aspect of ditthi). Hence, a sotapanna may indeed experience papanca stemming from tanha or mana (but not ditthi). In my case, it pays to read around and ask questions!! (-: Thanks and take care Andrew T 45568 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 15, 2005 10:46pm Subject: Mighty Merit Making ... !!! ;-) bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: Where does a Gift result in Great Fruition ? Sakka - king of gods - once asked the buddha: For those folks who wish to share, For those beings in quest of merit, Wishing to do good here in the world, Where does their gift return great fruit ? The blessed Buddha answered: The four Nobles practicing the Way, # The four Nobles enjoying the Fruit, % These are the Sangha behaving straight, Focused by understanding on what is right. For those folks who wish to share, For those beings in quest of merit, Wishing to do good here in the world, Any gift to this Sangha bears great fruit ! # Those on the path to Stream-entry, Once-Return, Never-Return & Arahat state. % Those in fruition of Stream-entry, Once-Return, Never-Return & Arahat state. Source: The Grouped sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 233 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 45569 From: "robmoult" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause robmoult Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Rob: "I would assume that a being (a set of five aggregates) and a > mental state (citta + a set of cetasikas) would also fall into this new > category of "formations". > > I am intrigued by your comment that a kalapa is not a concept. Is this > because it is conditioned and you believe that concepts cannot be > conditioned?" > > Hi Rob, > > Yes on both counts. And also because two realities doesn't seem to make > a concept or symbol. Their multiplicity seems to be real but as a group > there is of course no sabhava (own nature). Without sabhava a formation > can't be a direct object of consciousness, only a formation of > consciousness. Hence it can't be known but it can be desired in a vague, > uninformed sort of way. This vagary goes a long way in explaining > ignorance. > > We could say formations are concepts but I see concept as a linguistic > device while formation is a kind of mental synthesis. Maybe a philosophy > of knowlege or language would marry these two but that's over my head. ===== As Nagasena points out at the beginning of Milindapana, King Milinda's chariot has no ultimate existence as "chariot" is a name / designation / phrase / term / concept / formation representing a group of component parts arranged in a particular manner. Nagasena's focus was not concept vs. reality, but rather anatta. I agree with you that a concept is a lingusitic device, but I see the function of this concept as being mental synthesis. A kalapa is a grouping of ultimate realities whereas other concepts may be grouping together of other things (including other concepts... to create meta-concepts?). Nevertheless, I see formations and concepts as the same thing. Please help me to better understand the difference between concepts and formations according to you definition and, more importantly, what benefit it brings to separate the two definitions. Metta, Rob M :-) 45570 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:29am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: Hi Htoo Thanks for these comments. I'd just to quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes in his translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on this point, which I believe are based on the commentarial material: "For bare insight meditator and jhana meditator alike, all path and fruition cittas are considered types of jhana consciousness. They are so considered because they *occur in the mode of closely contemplating their object with full absorption, like the mundane jhanas*, and because they *possess the jhana factors with an intensity corresponding to their counterparts in the mundane jhanas*." (CMA Ch. I, Guide (i.e.. summary of commentary) to ##30-31) In the PTS translation, the relevant passage of the text of the A-S itself reads: "(41) By taking each in five ways by division according to association with jhaana-factors, the unsurpassed consciousness is said to be fortyfold." This I think is to the same effect as the second of the reasons given in the BB passage above. Jon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Jon, Thanks for your quote. All magga cittas arise at appanaa samaadhi. All phala cittas arise at appanaa samaadhi. All jhaana cittas arise at appanaa samaadhi. But lokuttara cittas are not 'ruupavacara rupakusala cittas'. Lokuttara cittas are not 'aruupavacara aruupakusala cittas'. All lokuttara cittas have 'nibbana' as their only object. All lokuttara cittas do not have 'the rupa-jhana-object'. All lokuttara cittas do not have 'the arupa-jhana-object'. With respect, Htoo Naing 45571 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:53am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (372) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > There are 5 jhana factors in 1st jhana. They are > 1. vitakka or 'initial application' > 2. vicaara or 'sustained application' > 3. piiti or 'rapture' or 'suffusing joy' > 4. sukha or 'calmness' or 'tranquility' > 5. ekaggata or 'one-pointedness' or 'fixity' or 'stillness' Hi Htoo, I believe piiti and sukha belong to different khandhas but I've forgotten which is which. Isn't one vedana and the other sankhara? Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, 0. pannatti = no khandhaa 1. 1st jhaana cittas = vinnana-kkhandhaa 2. sukha = vedana-kkhandhaa 3. jhaana-sannaa = sanna-kkhandhaa 4. vitakka-vicaara = sankhara-kkhandhaa piiti-ekaggataa other 29 cetasikas 5. hadaya vatthu = ruupa-kkhandhaa As the object in 1st jhaana is pannatti there is no ruupa serving as object. But there is hadaya ruupa serving as the ground for 1st jhana cittas. Other ruupa-kkhandhaas are 1. kaaya-vinatti ruupa of jhaana 2. 4 maaha bhuuta ruupa that hadaya ruupa has to reside 3. jivita ruupa 4. ahaara ruupa For support jivita ruupa, ahaara ruupa have to work for 1st jhaana. For base hadaya ruupa has to work for 1st jhaana. Kaaya-vinatti ruupa is just a manifestation of 1st jhaana. They are ruupa-kkhandhaa. Apart from these 5 khandhas there is no other khandhas. Nibbana does not have a khandha. Pannatti is not a paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45572 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (376) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Among 40 objects of samatha bhavanaa or 'tranquility meditation' there are 26 kammatthaanas that can give rise to 1st jhaanas. These 26 kammatthaanas are 1. 10 kasina kammatthaanas 2. 10 asubha kammatthaanas 3. 1 kaayagataasati kammatthaana 4. 1 aanaapaanassati kammatthaana 5. 4 brahmavihaara or 4 brahmacariya kammatthaanas. Among these 26 objects, only first 4 kinds that is only first 22 objects give rise to patibhaaga nimitta and other 4 objects which are the object of brahmavihaara or brahmacariya kammatthaana cannot give rise to patibhaaga nimitta because there is no stable idea exist. The first 22 kammatthaanas will be explained first before explanation on 4 brahmavihaara start. Bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala kamma and one has to practise as much kusala as possible in the other forms rather than bhaavana. So he or she should practise daana kusala kamma by offering things to those who are in need of those things. And he or she will have to keep basic precepts observed all the time. He is she has to abandon bad mind of any form. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45573 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:13am Subject: 21 Sessions of Mahasatipatthana Sutta htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 21 sessions of how to stay doing bhaavana or mental cultivations to purify the mind and to be released so as to be liberated from binding on panca upadanakkhandhaa or five clinging aggregates. All these 21 sessions were preached to bhikkhus disciples at Kammaasadhamma greater village of Kuru country close to Deli province of the current India. These were all preached by The Buddha. In the 1st 25 years there was no permanent attendant bhikkhu to assist The Buddha and His personal affairs. When The Buddha got old and frail, He announced that He became frail. The Sangha proposed that Ananda should be 'the attendant of The Buddha'. When Ananda was asked regarding this great job, he requested The Buddha that The Buddha had to re-preach all teachings that had been taught in the absence of him [Ananda]. So whenever Venerable Kassapa asked, Ananda replied; Thus have I heard [ Evam me sutam ] : Ananda told that 'maahaasatipatthaana sutta' was preached at Kammaasadhamma village of Kuru country at one time. The 21 sessions that The Buddha taught to his disciples bhikkhus are 1. 14 contemplation on the body 2. 1 contemplation on the feeling 3. 1 contemplation on the mind 4. 5 contemplation on the dhamma 'The' body here is 'the body' of the 'typical bhikkhu' in the sutta. This also refers to anyone who has been practising vipassana according to The Buddha instructions. So if one does satipatthana on the body that body is his 'physical body'. Again 'the' feeling is also the feeling of the practitioner. 'The' mind is the mind of the practitioner. 'The' dhamma is the dhamma that arise in the practitioner. There are 5 sessions on 'contemplation on the dhamma'. 1. 5 hindrances or 5 nivarana dhammas 2. 5 clinging aggregates or 5 upadanakkhandhas 3. 6 sense-base or 6 aayatana (6 ajjhatta and 6 bahiddha = 12 ayatana) 4. 7 enlightenment factors or 7 bojjhanga dhammas 5. 4 Noble Truths or 4 saccaa dhammas With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45574 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread (377) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana may be attained through the practice of samatha bhaavana of 26 kinds. If one does not practise brahmavihaara or brahmacariya as the main tool to achieve 1st jhaana, then he or she will have to practise one of 10 kasina kammatthaanas or one of 10 asubha kammatthaanas or kaayagataasati kammatthaana or aanaapaanassati kammatthaana. Kasina means 'whole'. Initially bhaavana kamma cittas take the visual object of a unicoloured material if kasina is colour kasina. There are 4 colour kasinas. They are 1. niila kasina 2. piita kasina 3. lohita kasina 4. odaata kasina Niila kasina can be practised by taking the object with darker colour like brown, blue, green etc. Piita means 'golden yellow' and lohita means 'red' or 'blood colour' and odaata means 'white colour'. Example material for kasina object is a circle with 2-feet diameter or 1 foot radius, which is covered with a smooth cloth with a unicolour. When first praactise kasina bhaavana, the bhavanaa kusala kamma cittas are all taking the visual object with unicolour. Kasina is not a mantra. But one needs to put the mind on that object repeatedly so that the mind does not depart from that object. At the beginning, there always are distractions and the mind does not stay still on the target object. When there arise preparatory concentration or parikamma samaadhi, there are little distractions and the mind stay there on the object most of the time. As the kammatthaana is kasina or wholeness, the mind has to spread all over the kasina object and not at a point but as a whole onto the object. The whole object is now recognised as a visual object as everyone can see as it is. The same applies to the practitioner that he recognises the object well and his mind is well on the object and hardly goes anywhere. As there is a good concentration and as his mind is there on the whole object, he does recognise all the detail of his visual object. He may see some overheaped thread, roughness, tiny staining etc. At a time, there arise an object in his mind. That object is something identical to the visual object but now no more a visual object. He can see very clearly it in his mind and the object is exactly the same except that the 2nd just stay in the mind and never exists outside. That object is a nimitta or a sign. That sign is a mental image of the visual object and it is no more a visual image but mental image. It is called uggaha nimitta. Since the appearance of that sign, mental concentration is much much better than the initial stage. The samaadhi or concentration at that time is called parikamma samaadhi or preparatory concentration. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45575 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, S:You’ve kindly asked for my comments on this thread a couple of times. Pajaanaa(ti) is a synonym for pa~n~na, sampaja~n~na,sammaadi.t.thi, vipassanaa or anupassanaa as I understand. From the Satipatthana comy: “sampajaanoti tattha katama.m sampaja~n~na.m? yaa pa~n~naa pajaananaa...pe0... sammaadi.t.thi. ida.m vuccati sampaja~n~na.m. iminaa sampaja~n~nena upeto hoti...pe0... samannaagato. tena vuccati sampajaanoti." ... S: Also from the Vibhanga: (Translation given in PTS Book of Analysis): “357. ‘Contemplating [anupassiiti]’ means: Therein what is contemplation [anupassanaa]? that which is wisdom [paññaa], understanding [pajaananaa], :[see par 525]: absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called contemplation. Of this contemplation he is possessed, well possessed, attained, well attained, endowed, well endowed, furnished. Therefore this is called ‘contemplating’.” Gacchanto – As I recently quoted from the tiika: "Going. The term is applicable both to the awareness of the fact of moving on and to the knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities of moving on. The terms sitting, standing and lying down , too, are applicable in the general sense of awareness and in ***the particular sense of *knowledge of the (true) characteristic qualities***. ***Here (in this discourse) the particular and not the general sense of awareness is to be taken.***" ... S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . As you have written, panna or vipassana can only understand or have insight into ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), not into concepts or ideas. Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca and the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one’s command that reinforces the idea of atta. I think that as soon as there is an idea of focusing on lifting the foot or any other concepts or realities in order for satipatthana to arise, we forget everything we’ve read about paramattha dhammas arising by conditions, not by a self and instead of developing sati and panna of what appears right now – whether a citta, cetasika or rupa, there is an attempt by Self to select a different object. Metta, Sarah ======== 45576 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (378) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When there is parikamma samaadhi or preparatory concentration, the bhaavnaa kusala kamma cittas are all taking uggaha nimitta or the sign of mental image, which is identical with the initial visual image. At that time, the practitioner has to maintain that sign not to lose. This is usually compared with the mother-to-be who is protecting her pregnancy at all cost not to abort. If it is aborted, then the practitioner will have to try another time to attain the sign again. With persistent effort, there arises another sign which is similar to mental image but not identical. That new image is called counter image of mental image. It is patibhaaga nimitta or sign. That sign is much much more beautiful than mental image and when this sign appears all the non-beautiful markers on the sign disappear and there left only beautiful markers. When such sign arises, the mind is well calm and there is no hindrances at all unlike earlier stages. Before arising of this sign, there are occasional arisings of other objects in the mind but most of the time the mind is on the mental image and there does arise samaadhi. That samaadhi is called parikamma samaadhi or preparaotory concentration. From the time when uggaha nimitta or mental image arising to arising of patibhaaga nimitta or counter image is occupied by parikamma samaadhi. Since arising of patibhaaga nimitta, there arises another samaadhi called upacaara samaadhi or proximity concentration. It is called proximity concentration because it is approximate to appanaa samaadhi or actual jhaana absorption. Since arising of patibhaaga nimitta there is no more 1. sensuous thinking 2. aversive thinking 3. sloth-torpored thinking 4. spreading-worrying thinking 5. suspicious thinking At a time there arises appanaa samaadhi and as soon as that samaadhi arise, the mind is totally and completely absorbed into the object or the object is absorbed into the mind and jhaana is said to arise without any interruption or disturbances. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45577 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:10am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo, I think that as soon as there is an idea of focusing on lifting the foot or any other concepts or realities in order for satipatthana to arise, we forget everything we've read about paramattha dhammas arising by conditions, not by a self and instead of developing sati and panna of what appears right now – whether a citta, cetasika or rupa, there is an attempt by Self to select a different object. Metta, Sarah ======== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Sara, So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45578 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:11am Subject: Dhamma Thread (379) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 1st jhaana is a state when all mental activities are taking a single and the same object called patibhaaga naimitta. All the cittas in that jhaana are called 1st jhaana cittas or ruupavacara 1st jhaana ruupakusala cittas. The citta is rupavacara 1st jhaana rupakusla citta. It depends on hadaya vatthu as its ground. It takes patibhaaga nimitta, which is pannatti as its object. Associated jhaana factors are 1. vitakka or 'initial application', which applies the mind to patibhaaga nimitta 2. vicaara or 'sustained application', which sustainedly applies the mind to patibhaaga nimitta 3. piiti or rapture or 'suffused joy', which fills up the whole body as the mind takes up patibhaaga nimitta as its object 4. sukha or peace in tranquility, which tranquilisied the mind while taking the object patibhaaga nimitta 5. ekaggataa or one-pointedness or fixity, which fixes the mind to the object patibhaaga nimitta Even though there are other mental factors, these mental factors are working in the power of jhaana and they are called jhaana factors. As these factors are working well, they all burn their opposite or their enemies namely 1. kaamacchanda nivarana or 'sensuous thinking' 2. byaapada nivarana or 'aversive thinking' 3. thina-middha nivarana or 'sloth-torpored thinking' 4. uddhacca-kukkucca nivarana or 'spreading-worrying thinking' 5. vicikicchaa nivarana or 'suspicious thinking' This is the 1st jhaana that take colour kasina as their object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45579 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:33am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) matheesha333 Hi Htoo, H:> Bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before > proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala > kamma and one has to practise as much kusala as possible in the other > forms rather than bhaavana. > M: This would be good if it is possible, but to abandon all akusala at the stage of a beginner is impossible. IMO it would be better to attempt meditation as it is a gradual process in itself. With developing one-pointedness, the arising of akusala muula/hindrences will become less. Practicing other kusal would be good but often time is in short supply to the meditator and the priority has to be meditation. > So he or she should practise daana kusala kamma by offering things to > those who are in need of those things. And he or she will have to > keep basic precepts observed all the time. He is she has to abandon > bad mind of any form. M: ..as much as possible. He should also try to live a quiet life away from complication. Settle the bills, put the kids to bed and try to be free from worry ..as much as possible. :) When samadhi improves, it suppresses defilements, therefore sila improves, unwholesome mind states arise less frequently. It becomes a positive feedback loop. To wait until the mind/precepts is perfect is good for monks training where this will give a solid foundation. But for lay practice we need to use more skillful methods due to limitations. Metta and Asubha bhavana help in suppressing hindrences, and helps strong samadhi leading up to jhana to take hold. metta Matheesha 45580 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 6:04am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) htootintnaing Dear Matheesha, Thanks for your thoughts regarding kusala and bhaavanaa. You wrote: Hi Htoo, H:> Bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before > proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala > kamma and one has to practise as much kusala as possible in the > other > forms rather than bhaavana. M: This would be good if it is possible, but to abandon all akusala at the stage of a beginner is impossible. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, bhaavanaa or mental cultivation of kusala is a slow process. What I referred was to abandon 'very crude forms of akusala'. This is totally possible for all beginners. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: IMO it would be better to attempt meditation as it is a gradual process in itself. With developing one-pointedness, the arising of akusala muula/hindrences will become less. Practicing other kusal would be good but often time is in short supply to the meditator and the priority has to be meditation. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Priority has to be meditation. But the meditation can be supported by other non-bhaavanaa kusala at current stage and at later stages far beyond this current life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > So he or she should practise daana kusala kamma by offering things > to > those who are in need of those things. And he or she will have to > > keep basic precepts observed all the time. He is she has to > abandon > bad mind of any form. M: ..as much as possible. He should also try to live a quiet life away from complication. Settle the bills, put the kids to bed and try to be free from worry ..as much as possible. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Minor hindrances have to be first cut up. If there are worries, there will not be any genuine bhaavanaa. Because worries and bhaavanaa are opposite. Worries are akusala and bhaavanaa are kusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: When samadhi improves, it suppresses defilements, therefore sila improves, unwholesome mind states arise less frequently. It becomes a positive feedback loop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good to see positive feedback loop. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: To wait until the mind/precepts is perfect is good for monks training where this will give a solid foundation. But for lay practice we need to use more skillful methods due to limitations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Even for monks there are great obstructions and they all have to overcome with diligent practice. Lay people life is much more complicated and approach will be a bit different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Matheesha: Metta and Asubha bhavana help in suppressing hindrences, and helps strong samadhi leading up to jhana to take hold. metta Matheesha ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Matheesha, Buddhanussati, metta-sati, asubha-sati and marana- sati are 4 guardian meditations that help in vipassana practice. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45581 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 16, 2005 6:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, --- htootintnaing wrote: > So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. > > I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. > ... S: So panna can only know the particular characteristic (or reality) which appears at this very moment or when we are walking. When seeing or visible object appears (i.e is the object of the javana cittas), awareness can only be aware of that seeing [the nama] or that visible object [the rupa]. If instead of being aware and understanding that presebtly appearing dhamma at that very moment, there is a 'trying' to be aware of 'lifting the foot' or 'air element', for example, then it is not satipatthana. Instead it is a subtle or not-so-subtle idea that there can be awareness of another selected object and that still, 'we' are in control of these dhammas. There is attachment too, wanting to be aware whilst trying so hard. Meanwhile, the present objects such as the seeing, visible object, attachment, concentration and other dhammas are arising and falling away are quite unknown. I hope this clarifies a little my last comments and understanding of 'walking meditation' . As Bhikkhu Samahita just wrote in a good post on sakkaya ditthi: "The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: "All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to this frame in anyone nor anywhere...." MN 106 [ii 106] S: I know you appreciate such quotes, Htoo. Sometimes, though, in spite of reading abhidhamma and knowing in theory that there are only paramattha dhammas, that they are conditioned and anatta, we still cling to the idea that we must do something special..... Metta, Sarah p.s the camera is ready! if you give plenty of advance notice, maybe others will visit Hong Kong at the same time and we can have some nice discussions. ======== 45582 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:02am Subject: Dhamma Thread (380) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 1st jhaana that arises taking colour kasina objects have been discussed. There are 4 different colours that can be used as colour kasinas or colour kasina kammatthanas or colour kasina kammatthana object. They are 1. niila or darker colour (like brown, blue, green) 2. piita or yellow colour (golden yellow) 3. lohita or red colour (blood colour) 4. odaata or white colour (glistening colour may also be used) Like these 4 objects, there are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water When pathavii kasina kammatthaana is going to be practised, the object can be prepared by making a circle filled with earth. Even though any earth can work, it is better to start with the earth with the colour of dawn (yellow-orange-red). Unprepared and untouched original earth-ground can also be the object. Initially what is seen is visual object that have light, shape, forms etc. Once there arise an image in the mind which is identical with visual object. But that new object arises only in the mind and it is called uggaha nimitta or mental image of visual object. When another image arises in the mind, that image is similar to uggaha nimitta but not exactly. Actually, it is different from uggaha nimitta. It is much muhc more beautiful that there is no staining, no blotch, no disfiguring marks like grass, dirt, dead insects etc. The whole image becomes uni- element and unicolour and brightened. This new image is called patibhaga nimitta or counter image of mental image. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45583 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:16am Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing Dear Sarah, You wrote: Hi Htoo, >--- htootintnaing wrote: > So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. > I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. ... S: So panna can only know the particular characteristic (or reality) which appears at this very moment or when we are walking. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. Only citta can know that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: When seeing or visible object appears (i.e is the object of the javana cittas), awareness can only be aware of that seeing [the nama] or that visible object [the rupa]. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You put these complicated. I do not understand your message above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: If instead of being aware and understanding that presebtly appearing dhamma at that very moment, there is a 'trying' to be aware of 'lifting the foot' or 'air element', for example, then it is not satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not understand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Instead it is a subtle or not-so-subtle idea that there can be awareness of another selected object and that still, 'we' are in control of these dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I really do not understand. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: There is attachment too, wanting to be aware whilst trying so hard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The fear of attachment is akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Meanwhile, the present objects such as the seeing, visible object, attachment, concentration and other dhammas are arising and falling away are quite unknown. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: For many people or almost all people yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: I hope this clarifies a little my last comments and understanding of 'walking meditation' . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Not that clear. What I understand is that DSG is discouraging meditation of any forms 1. sitting meditation 2. walking meditation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: As Bhikkhu Samahita just wrote in a good post on sakkaya ditthi: "The Blessed Buddha radically pointed out: "All phenomena is void of a 'self' or of what belongs to any 'self'! Within this frame is thus not anything belonging to anyone, anywhere, nor is there anything belonging to this frame in anyone nor anywhere...." MN 106 [ii 106] S: I know you appreciate such quotes, Htoo. Sometimes, though, in spite of reading abhidhamma and knowing in theory that there are only paramattha dhammas, that they are conditioned and anatta, we still cling to the idea that we must do something special..... Metta, Sarah ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If you are frightened, do not do any special ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: p.s the camera is ready! if you give plenty of advance notice, maybe others will visit Hong Kong at the same time and we can have some nice discussions. ======== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will give you 1 month advanced notice if I have planned to come. With respect, Htoo Naing 45584 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati. sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > S: > But then at the end you say; > -------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > PS: But I would never say that 'it is wrong to note as going when we > > go'. That is gacchanto vaa gacchaamiiti pajaanaati. > -------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Dear Sukin, you said 'But then at the end you say;'. What is wrong > with my PS:? > -------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Sorry Htoo, I probably read in haste and did not pay proper attention to the actual wording. In my mind I have the idea that you interpret the Buddha's words as `deliberate doing'. In fact that is the general impression I get from reading many of your posts. You also talk about `one snake knowing about the feet of another snake' with Tep, and he is very pro-deliberate doing, i.e. formal meditation, indeed. So even though you did not state it here, I believe my remark is to some extent justified. ;-) Besides, on DSG, it happens so often that two people agree to some statement yet on a more basic level it is so clear that the basic understanding is quite different. In this regard I think even though I can appreciate much of what you write, in the end it must be because you are faithful to the Tipitaka, for when it comes down to practice, our views are quite different, and I don't think we can both be right. And patipatti being directly related to pariyatti, I think our difference lies on this basic level. So I am going to write as I said, about what I think a beginner needs to hear, but in another post. Because I think it relates to this question about pariyatti and patipatti. > --------------------- > Htoo: > Take time and try to control 'the steering wheel'. Otherwise you will > be liberated from Sukin-hood. ----------------------- Sukin: :-) Good one! Metta, Sukinder 45585 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:21am Subject: Beginner to Dhamma sukinderpal Dear Htoo, As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja. Lobha will attach to and proliferate on any sign even if that be a glimpse of understanding. Indeed if there was no accumulated panna, we wouldn't have been interested in the Buddha's words in the first place. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Certainly we won't be lead to false hopes about achieving sotapatti in a matter of weeks or months or any `time' that we are happy to project into based on the sanna of this `self', :-/ would we? Is it after all realistic, is the path that simple? As K. Sujin often says, lobha both leads the way and it follows too. Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. Not only does lobha jump at the first sign of such promises, but it also spins out a series of reasonings to back it up, and this is the work of wrong view. So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' which is forever seeking? Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. However, I believe that to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you think? Unless of course he has extreme wrong view and prefers to believe in such as the `oneness of existence' and `God'. And I believe that this is the real basis for saddha! But instead we are lead by most Buddhist teachers to do this and do that *first* and are told that saddha will arise when we experience the `real thing'. This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko. But of course, one does reason before about the method, and besides there must be a degree of right view which attracts us to Buddhism in the first place. However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately, when we come across these modern day teachers of Buddhism. Do these teachers even warn us about the difference between concept and reality like you sometimes do Htoo? (Btw, I think you would be the best meditation teacher around, though I personally wouldn't come to you for any instructions. ;-)) But actually it does not matter as far as I am concerned, for the fault lies in the very idea of "doing". Whatever follows after that, new-age Buddhism, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Samatha/vipassana method, is nothing but a proliferation of wrong view. Having the idea about `doing' and doing it, it does not help after that, to then justify this by bringing in our knowledge of dhammas to explain the process. As I said above, lobha and ditthi will use anything to go on. I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain experiences separately. And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at all. But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. I believe the experience of the meditator is no different from this, only he by the power of concentration, has managed to observe them without being otherwise led by the stories, not counting the story about the practice itself ;-). And his knowledge of rise and fall allows him to keep enough distance to watch these experiences more microscopically. But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted understanding of conditionality. When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing, are often accused of taking the easy road. I think most people are willing to go through any hardship if there is promise of result in the future, be it the treasure hunter, the man who sleeps on the bed of thorns or the meditator who willingly bears the knee pain. Wrong view after all, *feels so right*. ;-) And besides, `Right Effort' arises with other sobhana cetasikas and not any domanasa, isn't it? So what is the argument? You could say instead that they the meditators, thinking patipatti in stories, picturing themselves doing certain things, likewise project such a story on us. They think that we too think in stories and in their script they imagine us as `fearing the idea' of pain. But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you expect the reaction to be? I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) Metta, Sukinder 45586 From: "mnease" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction mlnease Hi Andrew, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew" To: Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction > Corrections noted. I didn't quote Ven Thanissaro's note in full (but > gave the necessary reference for those wanting to check) but the > extract I selected was, I believe, faithful to the remaining > sentences. To be fair, the note may not have been intended as a > comprehensive definition of the term "papanca". In any event, it > does give a different, more selective impression than Htoo's message > #45444 which I take to be the standard Theravada line ie that papanca > stems from tanha, mana and ditthi (not just the self-view aspect of > ditthi). Hence, a sotapanna may indeed experience papanca stemming > from tanha or mana (but not ditthi). Yet ANOTHER correction to my first post: I wrote that attadi.t.thi was a "mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view"; in fact, I think it can either fall into the existence/eternalist view OR the nonexistence/annihilationist view. > In my case, it pays to read around and ask questions!! (-: In all our cases, I think--it's easy to be misled by (even well-meaning) special pleading, always good to compare sources with the closest we can find to the tipi.taka I think. mike 45587 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self philofillet Hi Larry > Phil: "there is also benefit to others when we come to see that people > don't really exist in the ultimate sense". > > Hi Phil, > > I agree, but understanding doesn't seem to be something we can give to > others. Compassion, loving kindness, appreciation, and equanimity can be > given freely to all without limit. Try it on the train or in the > street. Even if it only makes the smallest difference, that's something. I didn't word that well. My point was that when we come to have even a shallow intellectual understanding of parattha dhammas and begin to understand that there is nothing but conditioned nama and rupa, there is simply less holding on to stories rooted in self. And therefore fewer obstructions to metta et al arising in daily life, without any need to think about them. And this doesn't mean that we experience people as reduced to nama and rupa. There are still people in our lives, of course, but the baggage is much lighter. And lighter baggage means fewer obstructions to brahma-viharas and other sobhanna cetasikas, I would think. I think of that sutta about the acrobats - how we can help others by helping ourselves. The commentorial notes I read said that this means that by becoming arahants we can provide a profoundly helpful example to others. I would disagree that "helping ourselves" needs to be defined by such a rare accomplishment - I think even shallow understanding can make us lighter, in a sense, and less hamful to others, without the need to try to be or even think about being so. Metta, Phil 45588 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 8:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (381) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Like these 4 objects, there are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water There always an object for any citta. Before 1st jhaana can arise, there arise other kusala cittas like mahaakusala cittas. When samatha bhavanaa are being practised on kasinas, there are 3 different objects. The first is initial object, which is a visual object. When this visual object can see very clearly in the mind without opening the eyes again to see the original object, it is said that mental image or uggaha nimitta has arisen. It is pannatti. Next there arise another image at a time and it is counter image or patibhaaga nimitta. It is also pannatti. Pathavi kasina has been talked in the previous post. For tejo kasina, naked fire of any kind can be used as the object of tejo kasina. But for initiation, the preparation for tejo kasina may help. Calm and non-moving visual fire object is better for initiation. Outdoor fire can be created and then initially look at the fire and practise to obtain the mental image. For indoor, large candle can be used and light it and then look at the fire. When mental image arises, there will be some extra material or shade or shape in the mental image like the candle itself, flowing paraffin, insects if there they are, etc etc. When counter image arises, these extra things disappear and there is pure fire of orange- red colour. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45589 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 8:38am Subject: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 1. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, It is nice to talk to you. You wrote: Dear Htoo, As worldlings when we approach Buddhism, I think we should keep in mind the accumulated lobha and avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you will be keeping in the accumulated lobha and avijja. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Lobha will attach to and proliferate on any sign even if that be a glimpse of understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccaya. Decisive support condition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Indeed if there was no accumulated panna, we wouldn't have been interested in the Buddha's words in the first place. However we do have to acknowledge the infinite accumulated lobha, moha and also miccha ditthi. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you believe 'accumulations'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Certainly we won't be lead to false hopes about achieving sotapatti in a matter of weeks or months or any `time' that we are happy to project into based on the sanna of this `self', :-/ would we? Is it after all realistic, is the path that simple? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha mentioned in mahasatipatthaana sutta that 'let alone 7 years, 6,5,4,3,2,1 year is sufficed. 'Let alone 1 year, 7 months, 6,5,4,3,2,1, half month is sufficed. 'Yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipatthaane evam bhaaveyya satta vassaani tassa dvinnam phalaanam annataram phalam patikankham dittheva dhamme annaa, sati vaa upaadi se se anaagaamitaa. Titthantu bhikkhave satta vassaani, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipatthaane evam bhaaveyya cha vassaani, panca vassaani, cattaari vassaani, tiini vassaani, dve vassaani, ekam vassam. Titthatu bhikkhave ekam vassam, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satpatthaane evam bhaaveyya satta maasaani, tassa dvinnam phalaanam annataram phalam patikankham dittheva dhamme annaa, sati vaa upaadi se se anaagaamitaa. Titthantu bhikkhave satta maasaani, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satpatthaane evam bhaaveyya cha maasaani panca maasaani, cattaari maasaani, tiini maasaani, dve maasaani, ekam maasam, addamaasam..peyyalakam.. Titthantu bhikkhave addamaaso, yo hi koci bhikkhave ime cattaaro satipatthaane evam bhaaveyya sataaham, tassa dvinnam phalaanam annataram phalam patikankham dittheva dhamme annaa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaati. Titthantu = leave alone, let alone bhikkhave = O! bhikkhus addamaaso = half month koci = someone hi = right yo = that, such ime = these cattaaro = four satipatthane --> mindfulness evam bhaaveyya = 'such cultivating'[*as instructed*] sattaham = 7 full days tassa = that practitioner/s dvinnam = twofold phalaanam = phala naana (fruit) annataram phalam ---> any of fruit ( anagami or arahatta) patikankham = inevitably dittheva = in sight Ekamaasam = 1 month Addamaasam= half month These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: As K. Sujin often says, lobha both leads the way and it follows too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Lobha is there as long as there is no panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Read above Paali. The Buddha's words say promising result in the future. You seem not believe in The Buddha teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Not only does lobha jump at the first sign of such promises, but it also spins out a series of reasonings to back it up, and this is the work of wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo; No. If one cannot follow what The Buddha instructed he will be following the wrong way. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So does a good teacher tell a student to do this or do that? Should he not be pointing to the obvious, namely the `self' which is forever seeking? Don't you think that it is more likely than not, that someone approaching the Teachings would carry the same craving he has with relation to other things over to the Buddha's teachings? Should not the teacher, be pointing to this tendency? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhamma are oceans. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And when talking about Dhamma, should a beginner not be reminded about what indeed he experiences `in the moment' and can understand at whatever level, depending on his accumulated panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Should. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are ideas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: However, I believe that to the extent that any individual knows anything at all, at that corresponding level he or she can know these dhammas, don't you think? Unless of course he has extreme wrong view and prefers to believe in such as the `oneness of existence' and `God'. And I believe that this is the real basis for saddha! But instead we are lead by most Buddhist teachers to do this and do that *first* and are told that saddha will arise when we experience the `real thing'. This seems to be more like encouraging `blind faith' and relying on any illusion of result later and calling the process Ehipassiko. But of course, one does reason before about the method, and besides there must be a degree of right view which attracts us to Buddhism in the first place. However because we have accumulated so much of `wrong view', I think this is what influences us ultimately, when we come across these modern day teachers of Buddhism. Do these teachers even warn us about the difference between concept and reality like you sometimes do Htoo? (Btw, I think you would be the best meditation teacher around, though I personally wouldn't come to you for any instructions. ;-)) But actually it does not matter as far as I am concerned, for the fault lies in the very idea of "doing". Whatever follows after that, new-age Buddhism, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Samatha/vipassana method, is nothing but a proliferation of wrong view. Having the idea about `doing' and doing it, it does not help after that, to then justify this by bringing in our knowledge of dhammas to explain the process. As I said above, lobha and ditthi will use anything to go on. I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know whom you are referring to as moderna day Buddhists. But The Buddha said the implication that within a matter of 7 days if one follow what The Buddha instructed he will achieve the fruit of one alternatives of anagami magga or arahatta magga. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: It is not only the apparent calm which attracts them, but also, the very intention to focus does lead to observing certain experiences separately. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Upanissaya paccayo. Decisive support condition. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Never practising leads to never real experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it becomes hard to convince otherwise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dittha dhamma are in sight. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But 'the bhikkhu pajaanaati'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. I believe the experience of the meditator is no different from this, only he by the power of concentration, has managed to observe them without being otherwise led by the stories, not counting the story about the practice itself ;-). And his knowledge of rise and fall allows him to keep enough distance to watch these experiences more microscopically. But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Experience and thinking are different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted understanding of conditionality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose delusion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing, are often accused of taking the easy road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would say that 'all those who do not follow what The Buddha taught but set out their own way of achieving insight without satipatthaana' are all following 'the easy road'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: I think most people are willing to go through any hardship if there is promise of result in the future, be it the treasure hunter, the man who sleeps on the bed of thorns or the meditator who willingly bears the knee pain. Wrong view after all, *feels so right*. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not be any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And besides, `Right Effort' arises with other sobhana cetasikas and not any domanasa, isn't it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'Saamiam vaa dukkham vedanam vedayamaano saamisam dukkham vedanam vedayaamiiti pajaanaati. Niraamisam dukkham vedanam vedayamaano niraamisam dukkham vedanam vedayaamiiti pajaanaati'. Dhamma are arising on their own. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So what is the argument? You could say instead that they the meditators, thinking patipatti in stories, picturing themselves doing certain things, likewise project such a story on us. They think that we too think in stories and in their script they imagine us as `fearing the idea' of pain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If only The Buddha's Path is followed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you expect the reaction to be? I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45590 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 9:00am Subject: 21 Sessions of Mahasatipatthana Sutta & 14 sessions on the body htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, The 21 sessions that The Buddha taught to his disciples bhikkhus are 1. 14 contemplation on the body 2. 1 contemplation on the feeling 3. 1 contemplation on the mind 4. 5 contemplation on the dhamma 14 contemplations on the body 1. contemplation on movements of breathing 2. contemplation on movements of changing and still postures 3. contemplation on part-movements after postures 4. contamplation on disgusting 32 parts of the body 5. contemplation on elements of the body 6. contemplation on days old self-assumed own corpse 7. contemplation on disintegrated self-assumed own corpse 8. contemplation on self-assumed own fleshy-bloody corpse 9.contemplation on self-assumed own fleshless-bloody corpse 10.contemplation on self-assumed own dried tied skeletal corpse 11.contemplation on self-assumed own untied scattered skeletal corpse 12.contemplation on self-assumed own year old white bones corpse 13.contemplation on self-assumed own many years old scatter corpse 14.contemplation on self-assumed own bone dust corpse With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45591 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (382) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements for kasina kammatthana apart from 4 colours. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water Pathavi kasina and tejo kasina have been discussed. When vayo kasina is to be practised, one has to look for the object of movement. Examples are top of some bushes when there is breezely wind. Outdoor object is simple and natual. For indoor object one can create a man-made material like shradded paper or a bush of thread and anything is put at a place and then it is fanned electronically. But it is better to use equipment that would give rise to less noice. Initiall, the object is visual object of moving material. When mental image arises, there is a still copy of that visual image in the mind. All the details are identical with the original visual object even though the real outside visual object may have changed to another forms. But the practitioner can see very clear in his mind as a still picture. When conuter image arises, this mental image disappears and it changes into counter image, which is much much more beautiful than mental image or actual visual image. This is patibhaga nimitta. It is pannatti. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 15, 2005 11:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. nilovg Dear Hasituppada, I found your letter when I came home. I am sorry you suffered so much from pains and I hope you have fully recovered by now. It is difficult to analyse whathappened when it is past already. Now we can only think of it and even that thought is gone immediately. Whatever we think is conditioned and I should remember myself that thinking is only an insignificant naama. But, we are bound to attach such importance to the stories we think of, and I like to be reminded by A. Sujin that I am immediately lost in the ocean of concepts. Your story was a good illustration of kamma and vipaaka, the painful feeling is vipaaka, but we cannot know the real cause: kamma. This shows us again that the Abhidhamma is in us and around us, that it reigns over our lives, although it may not always be known and remembered. The Paticca Samuppaada is also daily life: feeling conditions craving. When there is painful feeling we want to be released from it, we crave for feeling of ease. When you use the word pain you may mean something different from what I understand. I understand: pain is painful feeling, dukkha vedanaa. It accompanies vipaakacitta, thus, it is vipaaka cetasika. It expereinces an unpleasant object. Among the twentyeight kinds of rupa there is no rupa that is pain. Painful feeling can be caused by too much hardness or heat, or pressure, thus, the Elements of Earth, Fire or Wind. These do not know or feel anything. I want to consider your post: op 07-05-2005 03:07 schreef hasituppada op hasituppada@...: Then I see that > the pain is in the mind, even though the problem is with the tooth > in the lower jaw. Both the jaw and the tooth are rupa. -------------- N: What we call jaw are many groups of rupa, and they arise and fall away, they do not stay for a moment. When we think of jaw, we think of a whole, a concept. But the bodybase is infinitesimally tiny, it arises and then falls away immediately. -------------- H: And rupa > cannot feel the pain. It is the mind that feels the pain. But the > pain itself is rupa. --------------- N: See above, I see it as painful feeling conditioned by the impingement of element on element, just for a moment. In between pain there is thinking, or there is seeing, and at such moments there is no pain. But we do not realize this and thus it seems that pain lasts. It is really difficult to directly realize the difference between nama and rupa, this can only be done at the first stage of insight. Only then can we know nama as pure nama, not mixed with rupa. It is at the second stage that there is direct realization of conditions for nama and rupa. I find that I confuse painful feeling that is vipaaka, with unpleasant mental feeling that arises very soon after painful bodily feeling and that accompanies akusala citta rooted in dosa. It is likely to arise, because only the anaagaamii has eradicated dosa. I quote but have to snip: ---------------- H: But I did not want to forget this instance > of easing of pain, by being aware of the pain, not by intellectually > understanding what caused the pain, but experiencing the inter play > between nama-rupa, and cause and effect. -------------- N: Usually once during a trip in India it happens that there is something wrong with the water and this causes unbearable pains. Even when I believe that I do not think and am aware of pain, I still cling to the idea of my pain or my awareness. This comes out when talking with A. Sujin and I find it very useful to make mistakes. I like it to be reminded that I am wrong again! We go wrong again and again. One can learn, it does not distress me. The dividing line between awareness and thinking with subtle lobha is very thin. ----------- H: You say that Abhidhamma helps you to understand the characteristics > of what appears now: any phenomena of our daily life…….. That is > so, but what you don't see is the MIND WITHOUT THE CHARACTERISTIC > OF WHAT HAD APPEARS. > > That is what happens in Bhavana (meditation) when you become aware > of the arising of a thought , that thought passes away and the MIND > is SILENT until the arising of the next thought. ----------- N: But the mind, citta, arises and passes in a flash, and is immediately succeeded by the next one. There never is silence, citta is always traveling from one object to the next object, whether we like it or not. That shows the anattaness, nobody can direct it, even though it *seems* that we can direct it. There is no time to direct it, it has already gone. Also during moments of calm there are different cittas, and some may be with subtle lobha, enjoying calm. Citta always has one object or other. --------------- > H: But in meditation you see the mind without the "reality of the > instance", that is a state of a mind released from sorrow , a > state of a mind released from fear, a state of a mind released from > pain and discomfort. (4am). > > My tooth is very much less painful. I will try to sneak into the bed > hoping to catch a little sleep. > > Pardon me if you consider this unnecessary ranting, ---------- N: Not at all, such exchanges are useful. I see bhavana differently from you. Mental development also includes considering Dhamma, discussing it, beginning to be aware of what appears right now. I think of Sukin's post on pariyatti, which is far more than just theoretical knowledge. I come back to it, I discussed it with Lodewijk. For bhavana the kusala citta must be accompanied by paññaa and also by alobha, detachment. We have to ask ourselves: do I learn anything? Is there less attachment to the idea of my thinking, my mind, my pain? Any form of bhavana, samatha and vipassana, must lead to detachment. Nina. P.S. I have Yahoo trouble, and if you or anyone else would like to react, please write to the list and also frwd it to my personal address. I copy the messages from the internet, but I may miss some. 45593 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 11:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self/Evan christine_fo... Hello Evan, In addition to the two possibilities you list ... Why do you think it was metta in the sense the Buddha means, coming from the Bhikkhu? Giving it a particular label doesn't mean that's what it is. If it wasn't a 'group subjective' experience ... it may also have been some form of psychic power - a manipulation of your experience - but not necessarily metta? Not arguing ... this is just picking over some other possibilities ... But your description of your experience with the Ven. Mahinda is quite fascinating. Yes, I would like a copy of the CD you mention ... it is kind of you to offer. I'll send details off-list. metta and thanks, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Evan Stamatopoulos" wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Certainly you can send yourself metta. In fact, all metta meditations > that I have heard of or practiced begin with giving oneself metta and > then directing metta to others starting from those closest to you then > those further and furter away. > > I remember on the first 3 day retreat I went to, it was led by Ven. > Mahinda. He is well known for his well developed metta ability. We > started most of our meditation sessions by doing metta first and then > going on to anapanasati. At one stage, he asked all of us to direct our > metta to him. We did so with our feeble attempts and then he said that > he would direct his meditation towards us. I felt this great wave of > warmth and power emanating from him that I was surprised. 45594 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 0:13pm Subject: Reasons for practice matheesha333 Help | Home » Tipitaka » Sutta Pitaka » Anguttara Nikaya » Context of this sutta Anguttara Nikaya V.180 Gavesin Sutta About Gavesin Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- On one occasion the Blessed One was wandering on a tour among the Kosalans with a large community of monks. As he was going along a road, he saw a large sala forest in a certain place. Going down from the road, he went to the sala forest. On reaching it, he plunged into it and at a certain spot, broke into a smile. Then the thought occurred to Ven. Ananda, "What is the cause, what is the reason, for the Blessed One's breaking into a smile? It's not without purpose that Tathagata's break into smile." So he said to the Blessed One, "What is the cause, what is the reason, for the Blessed One's breaking into a smile? It's not without purpose that Tathagata's break into smile." "In this spot, Ananda, there was once a great city: powerful, prosperous, populous, crowded with people. And on that city, Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened, dwelled dependent. Now, Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened, had a lay follower named Gavesin who didn't practice in full in terms of his virtue. But because of Gavesin, there were 500 people who had been inspired to declare themselves lay followers, and yet who also didn't practice in full in terms of their virtue. "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. But I don't practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they don't practice in full in terms of their virtue. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and on arrival said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who practices in full in terms of my virtue.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now practice in full in terms of his virtue. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin the lay follower and on arrival said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who practice in full in terms of their virtue.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and on arrival said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who practices the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin the lay follower and on arrival said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. I practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers, just as they practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' So he went to the 500 lay followers and on arrival said to them, 'From today onward I want you to know me as someone who eats only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time.' "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. He will now eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time. So why shouldn't we?' So they went to Gavesin the lay follower and on arrival said to him, 'From today onward we want Master Gavesin to know the 500 lay followers as people who eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time.' "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the lay follower: 'I am the benefactor of these 500 lay followers, their leader, the one who has inspired them. I practice in full in terms of my virtue, just as they practice in full in terms of their virtue. I practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers, just as they practice the chaste life, the life apart, abstaining from intercourse, the act of villagers. I eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time, just as they eat only one meal a day, refraining in the night, abstaining from a meal at the wrong time. In that we're exactly even; there's nothing extra [for me]. How about something extra!' "So he went to Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self- awakened, and on arrival said to him, 'Lord, may I receive the Going Forth in the Blessed One's presence. May I receive the Full Acceptance.' So he received the Going Forth in the presence of Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened; he received the Going Forth. And not long after his admission -- dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- he in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus Gavesin the monk became another one of the Arahants. "Then the thought occurred to the 500 lay followers: 'Master Gavesin is our benefactor, our leader, the one who has inspired us. Having shaven off his hair & beard, having put on the ochre robe, he has gone forth from the home life into homelessness. So why shouldn't we?' "So they went to Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self- awakened, and on arrival said to him, 'Lord, may we receive the Going Forth in the Blessed One's presence. May we receive the Full Acceptance.' So they received the Going Forth in the presence of Kassapa the Blessed One, worthy & fully self-awakened; they received the Going Forth. "Then the thought occurred to Gavesin the monk: 'I obtain at will -- without difficulty, without hardship -- this unexcelled bliss of release. O, that these 500 monks may obtain at will -- without difficulty, without hardship -- this unexcelled bliss of release!' Then those 500 monks -- dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute -- in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the chaste life, for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for themselves in the here & now. They knew: 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world.' And thus did those 500 monks -- headed by Gavesin, striving at what is more & more excellent, more & more refined -- realize unexcelled release. "So, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'Striving at what is more & more excellent, more & more refined, we will realize unexcelled release.' That's how you should train yourselves." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-180.html 45595 From: connie Date: Mon May 16, 2005 0:46pm Subject: musing? nichiconn Hi, Sarah, Isn't there a colored-string with cats-eye(?) beads... I'll look about. But I love lightning things. Like the white pony glimpsed thru the crack in the fence then as our fleeting lifespan... one of Nichiren's images I like but can't quite quote. KAboom wasn't thunder, but might've been an echo of Nina's oven-dvara or just a spark of anger that blew about the room, splattering like black paint smouldered spaces that do not peel off the walls the way the curtain melt did from windowpanes and frames but yeah, seems there were lots of cobwebs everywhere that we just never saw before the fire. And yes, the warranty covered Dinah's keyboard. Can't blame the dog for not being in any hurry to go back. No immediate hope of my clearly comprehending the things of daily life as they really are - nothing special, just nama-rupa or namati & phassa - but looking forward to your picture of Htoo, now (imagined as) fingers at the keyboard (skillfully "tik-tak-tik-tak"-ing) amongst other net voices around Howard's Tree, where I'd stared at this cartoon image of a shark's mouth until an air horn pulled me into the carpool tunnel as you were rushin'off and I decided the little kamma-kazi parasite should go in 2SigOth. The Ven. Sumangalo's "Buddhist Sunday School Lessons" do not have my full approval, so I'm looking for James, Phil and some others to write more for (Star)Kids. ;) Samphappalaapa - talking nonsense, or stringballs. :( Dispeller should be read in front of Vibhanga proper. Is Expositor like that? Uhm, recall? Mostly about ME being sick and wondering what possible nutritive essence could've been present in my brain, hoping for the best. Snot, <>, but not nimitta, is in the Index of Words and Subjects. If memory serves, the yogi will only lay hold of the snot object in the nostrils, no imagining it turning to moss in the lungs or gagging when Jozai would lick the junk up off the ground after I'd thought puke or spit. << 1144. Herein, the appearance of the head-hairs, etc. as to colour, shape, direction, location and delimitation is the acquired sign (uggahanimitta); their appearance as repulsive in all aspects is the counterpart sign (pa.tibhaaganimitta). >> Nimitta. Another of the mulabhaasaa's non-translating words? On that walking word, apaabaadho: abaadha (adj) w/out any hindrance; aabaadha (m) disease; affliction. What about postures? Is there crookedness of body, speech & mind? To be straight and inclined rightly thus: towards peace. connie 45596 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 0:53pm Subject: Leading others to practice matheesha333 The Buddha used skilful means to lead other to practice. He understood the mind of the putajjana and how to rouse it. If it had happened now, all hell would have broken loose.. ------------------ On the third day of the Buddha's visit to Kapilavatthu, after the Enlightenment, the Buddha went to Nanda's house, where festivities were in progress in honour of Nanda's coronation and marriage to Janapadakalyání Nandá. The Buddha wished Nanda good fortune and handed him his bowl to be taken to the vihára. Nanda, thereupon, accompanied the Buddha out of the palace. Janapadakalyání, seeing him go, asked him to return quickly. Once inside the vihára, however, the Buddha asked Nanda to become a monk, and he, unable to refuse the request, agreed with reluctance. But as the days passed he was tormented with thoughts of his beloved, and became very downcast and despondent, and his health suffered. The Buddha suggested that they should visit the Himálaya. On the way there, he showed Nanda the charred remains of a female monkey and asked him whether Janapadakalyání were more beautiful than that. The answer was in the affirmative. The Buddha then took him to Távatimsa where Sakka, with his most beautiful nymphs, waited on them. In answer to a question by the Buddha, Nanda admitted that these nymphs were far more attractive than Janapadakalyání, and the Buddha promised him one as wife if he would live the monastic life. Nanda was all eagerness and readily agreed. On their return to Jetavana the Buddha related this story to the eighty chief disciples, and when they questioned Nanda, he felt greatly ashamed of his lustfulness. Summoning all his courage, he strove hard and, in no long time, attained arahantship. He thereupon came to the Buddha and absolved him from his promise. (Thag.157f.; J.i.91; ii.92ff.; Ud.iii.2; DhA.i.96 105; UdA.168ff.; SNA.273f.) ----------------- The dhamma is like a snake. metta Matheesha 45597 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 1:42pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma matheesha333 Hi Sukinder, I will adress you. We can discuss this if you like, but only if you approach with an open mind. I am not interested in debating with anyone, as it only leads to more kilesa, and thats not helpful to anyone, and makes this unpleasant. We can attempt to understand each other better and treat each other with respect. I have nothing to prove to anyone. Nor will I try to get you to take on my views. If you are happy with that, Im happy to discuss the dhamma with you in mutual curiosity, not forgetting that there are humans behind the words on screen. If you dont wish to discuss; if youre happy with what you know, that's also just fine. metta, Matheesha 45598 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. dacostacharles Hi Tep, .... Very good question; I can't wait to read the answers. And, yes, to be my usual difficult self, I have a theory. I call it the "Multi-dimensional Hypothesis of Existence." It basically states that existence occurs in layers spanning several dimensions (sphere or plane of existence), and each layer/dimension appears as existence in it-self though they effect each other. For example: In Dimension "X" you will find a strange space/emptiness; though there appears to be no-boundaries, there is activity/movement. The Chinese believe it can not be labeled or named descriptively because it transcends thought / beyond comprehension; however we shall call it Wu. In Dimension "Alpha" you will find something and nothing giving birth to each other. We shall call it Wu Chi. In Dimension "1" you will find elemental stuff that can and often do interact. We shall call it the Plane of Wu Xing and Bagua or the Plane of Elemental interactions. In Dimension "Q" you will find thoughts/mind streams that can, and often do interact, as well as give rise to each other. We shall call it the Plane of Mind. In Dimension "T" you will find people and things that can, and often do, interact and give rise to each other. We shall call it the Plane of Things. From a Buddhist perspective, life in samsara exist in Dimension "T", Plane of Things. Liberation becomes transcending this plane and experiencing your existence in the others. Beyond the Dimension "Q" there can be no I, you, me, or it. However, when the elements of feelings come together in the Plane of Elemental interactions, the effects can be experienced in the Plane of Mind, and thus in the Plane of Things. I know this is a little off but I am having fun. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 08 May, 2005 20:04 Subject: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. Hi Howard and Larry - Okay, Howard. You say that there is no firebrand, no circle of fire, no movement -- only a stream (flow) of experience. What you said is at the micro-level of description; it is a perception straight from a learned theory; it is your own mental fabraication of concepts. The same as when you say our bodies are 99% emptiness -- there are only molecules: there is no being, no Howard; there is only a space of nothing except for electrons and sub-particles floating far apart. At that micro-level everything breaks down into almost nothingness - who can call the totality of electrons, sub-particles and emptiness a being? There is no self either. But this is not Paramattha dhamma -- it is Physics. How does that kind of thinking conditions samma-ditthi? Respectfully, Tep ===== 45599 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... dacostacharles Hi all, This discussion reminds me of a time when a monk asked his teacher, after seeing a finger get crushed, if you have the right view and understanding, is pain due to such an injury never experienced? I really don't remember the teachers reply, but I could imagine that he would have said, it was a relative question. However, pain may be experienced, and due to the right concentration (also) it may not be experience as pain nor lead to suffering. CharlesD PS: How can one use such extreme (i.e., far from the conventional) views of reality? Does one have to stop living? or How does one live in this unconventional reality? ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 07 May, 2005 07:49 Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3... Hi, Tep - In a message dated 5/6/05 11:42:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi, Howard (Htoo and anyone -- please butt in) - Thank you very much for taking time to write me about the "concepts" and "realities". Let me list some highlights of your explanation: -- "when the mind is engaged in thinking, .. it does so largely in terms of conventional ideas that are not actually occurring things at all". The concepts are "merely mentally projected, mentally superimposed on those phenomena that actually do occur". -- Realities are "directly arising" actual "objects of onsciousness". "So, for example, there are hardness sensations, odors, and sights etc." -- "Perceptions (or, perhaps better, recognitions) are mental operations that actually occur". They are "among the khandhic elements that the Buddha teaches us it is possible to be aware of and to note their impermanence, inadequacy, and emptiness of self. In the sense that they actually occur", they are "real". ... 45600 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2.function> 3... dacostacharles Hi Larry, I hope you don't mine me butting in. The answer to the questions is "yes" but you conclusion is wrong. The term "move" relates to a change in position only, not a change in state or a ceasing to exits. It would be more accurate to say they "change" and "cease to exist". Now if you view these things as permanent, then they would just move in and out of awareness, as well as get confused with a similar things (giving rise to the illusion of movement and change). It is really a question of ones view. CharlesD PS: According to physics, red does not really move, it is a state of something else that moves, changes, and ceases(the wave length of light through ...). ----- Original Message ----- From: Evan Stamatopoulos To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 10 May, 2005 06:55 Subject: RE: [dsg] Concepts vs. Real Objects [was Re:1. characteristic> 2.function> 3... Larry, Is consciousness conditioned? Is feeling conditioned? Is perception conditioned? Are mental formations conditioned? If the answer to these questions is "yes" (and it is) then it moves. Don't know about red but I would say the same thing if red is indeed a thing. Evan -------------------- Hi TG, Does consciousness move, feeling, perception, mental formations? Is red a thing that moves? How does movement work? Larry 45601 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view dacostacharles Hi Matheesha Your point --- "A sothapanna has no self view, but a sense of self still persists. ie - he still automatically uses it in his thinking out of force of habit, even though he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no Self to be found anywhere." --- is good, however I would like to add: If by sothapanna you mean those that have entered the steam of Dharama, it should be understand that though these individuals have the right view, they have to practice it regularly because the process of automatically taming the desires is not yet accomplished. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: matheesha To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 14 May, 2005 00:07 Subject: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view Hello Andrew T, A sothapanna has no self view, but a sense of self still persists. ie - he still automatically uses it in his thinking out of force of habit, even though he knows beyond a shadow of doubt that there is no Self to be found anywhere. I could find you the exact sutta which explains this but im feeling a bit lazy right now, so pleas excuse me! I hope it is not a life or death matter. Matheesha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? > Andrew T 45602 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:37am Subject: What is real ... dacostacharles I am getting the impression that all of you who like to distinguish between what is a reality and ... (using Abdharma as the basis for the belief) are really trying to say that uncompounded, unconditioned, and permanent things are the only reality (or ultimate realities). Is this true? charlesD PS: I am trying to clearly understand your definitions. 45603 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism dacostacharles I think the Buddha criticized ritual because most (99.9%) of the rituals he saw (in ancient India) could do nothing to aid in the escape from samsara or end suffering. Rituals that instilled principles like humility and kindness the Buddha liked because he felt they ripened the mind for his Dharma. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 07 May, 2005 17:44 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism Lisa wrote: Ritual the tension between desire and transcendence. The Buddha criticized ceremony for pomp and circumstance and blind faith, especially ritual bathing and mortification ceremonies and ritual sacrifices of animals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because they should have been criticized. For example, if there was a ritual that 'when a husband died, the wife had to jump into fire and die' is that ritual fair for that woman? The Buddha had great compassion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lisa: He did, integrate some rituals of his own into his teachings. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Beautiful rituals ; beneficial rituals; profitable rituals should be integrated. But you have to define 'rituals' to clearly speak. Rituals of homage etc are in a way good thing. ... 45604 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:31pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self/Evan Evan_Stamato... Hi Christine, Yes, I agree with you - and I did mention in one of the other responses I sent on this topic that it could have been phychological on my behalf. Because I was expecting something, I felt something. Thanks, I received your details and I'll send you the CD hopefully by this weekend. With Metta, Evan Hello Evan, In addition to the two possibilities you list ... Why do you think it was metta in the sense the Buddha means, coming from the Bhikkhu? Giving it a particular label doesn't mean that's what it is. If it wasn't a 'group subjective' experience ... it may also have been some form of psychic power - a manipulation of your experience - but not necessarily metta? Not arguing ... this is just picking over some other possibilities ... But your description of your experience with the Ven. Mahinda is quite fascinating. Yes, I would like a copy of the CD you mention ... it is kind of you to offer. I'll send details off-list. metta and thanks, Chris 45605 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:38pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah {Attn.: Htoo, Jon and KenH. Butting-in is welcome! } - My earlier story of a personal walking meditation is "meditation while walking" in which the mindfulness and the thorough comprehension (sampajanna) are with the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, standing and turning back - iriyapatha). The result has been quite good in the sense that both rupa and nama arise with no attachment, while sati and sampajanna are unbroken, sometimes. The Satipatthana Sutta should be well understood. It is not possible for anyone to understand this sutta when there is a bias -- a clinging to the extreme view that 'Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless'. Sarah (to Htoo in # 45575): Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . As you have written, panna or vipassana can only understand or have insight into ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), not into concepts or ideas. Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca and the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the idea of atta. T: (replying to the above remarks): Firstly, body positions and movements (iriyapatha, postures) are "body in the body", or kaaye-kaayaa, according to the Buddha in DN 22 . The Buddha categorized each of the followings as "body in the body": in- and-out-breathing; body postures and minor body movements (looking, bending or stretching limbs); the 32 body parts (hairs, nails, teeth, etc.); the primary elements(dhatus); dead body (at various satges of decay) discarded in the charnel ground. These are not ultimate realities, even the 4 dhatus in the body are concepts. Secondly, the understanding that any kaye-kaya is impermanent is vipassana . The mindfulness (or awareness) on each of these kaye-kaya things is for the training of tranquility (samatha); the sampajanna that clearly understands the naama and the ruupa at the present moment is the consequence of vipassana. In the "body in body" contemplation both sati and sampajanna are developed; the same as in "my" walking meditation! :-)) The DN 22 Commentary explains that the samatha's calm (or tranquillity) is "stated by mindfulness" while "insight(vipassana) is stated by clear comprehension" : DN 22 Commentary: "... the quietude that is obtained [patiladdha samatha] by way of the contemplation on the body [kayanupassana] is stated by mindfulness; insight [vipassana] by clear comprehension; ..." So, Sarah, it seems that your obsessed self-view jumped out again, when you wrote : "Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the idea of atta." Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > (snipped) > ... > S: Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas about walking and so on . As you have written, panna or vipassana can only understand or have insight into ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), not into concepts or ideas. Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover up the understanding of realities as anicca and the clinging to an idea of these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the idea of atta. > > I think that as soon as there is an idea of focusing on lifting the foot > or any other concepts or realities in order for satipatthana to arise, we > forget everything we've read about paramattha dhammas arising by > conditions, not by a self and instead of developing sati and panna of what appears right now – whether a citta, cetasika or rupa, there is an attempt by Self to select a different object. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== 45606 From: "Evan Stamatopoulos" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self/Evan Evan_Stamato... Hi Again Christine, I would like to add more to this. Some more interesting coincidences/metta that I would like to relate. Ven. Mahinda during the retreat mentioned that metta is very powerfull and can be used to get people to do things or change their attitudes or whatever (not being very specific here) by using a certain technique. He assured us that this would happen withing a week of practicing in this way. So, having come out of the retreat, I decided to do something about repairing a relationship I had with someone close to me. Every day, when I meditated, I used this technique to ask this person to call me (I wasn't in constant contact with them and I should have been). Guess what? Yep, you guessed it, after only about a week of using this metta meditation technique, this person called me! Coincidence or metta? You decide. This has worked on other occasions as well so it wasn't an isolated incident. Anyway, I'll send you the CD and if you have practiced metta a few times and are interested in knowing about this other technique, just ask me about it and I'll let you know how to do that. With Metta, Evan Hi Christine, Yes, I agree with you - and I did mention in one of the other responses I sent on this topic that it could have been phychological on my behalf. Because I was expecting something, I felt something. Thanks, I received your details and I'll send you the CD hopefully by this weekend. With Metta, Evan Hello Evan, In addition to the two possibilities you list ... Why do you think it was metta in the sense the Buddha means, coming from the Bhikkhu? Giving it a particular label doesn't mean that's what it is. If it wasn't a 'group subjective' experience ... it may also have been some form of psychic power - a manipulation of your experience - but not necessarily metta? Not arguing ... this is just picking over some other possibilities ... But your description of your experience with the Ven. Mahinda is quite fascinating. Yes, I would like a copy of the CD you mention ... it is kind of you to offer. I'll send details off-list. metta and thanks, Chris 45607 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 3:57pm Subject: Re: Radiating or pervading Metta to others or self matheesha333 Hi Tep, T:> I am sorry to inform you that both Web links of yours only led to an error > message. M: :) yes,I see the problem. Try cutting and pasting the whole thing (not just the bits which get underlined when the cursor is above it) into your browser, and pressing 'go'. > T: The panna-vimutti is not separated from samatha at all, according to > the following sutta! M: You are right. But do look at the kitagiri sutta of the MN from the link I posted. These two suttas seem to contradict each other about whether immaterial jhaana is present in the panna vimutta or not. I suspect the MN sutta is correct as the AN suttas (including the one which defines Released in Both ways) seems to talk of the required jhanas in `stock phrases'. T: Of course, the arahathood is the end result, but shouldn't > the starting point (to develop the lokuttara panna) be far away from that? M: IMO all paths have Samatha and vipassana components. (all seemingly except one in which the Buddha asks a monk to use void as the meditative object when the monk says he is incapable of Samatha and vipassana…even this I'm no sure now). To begin with one can either start off with Samatha or vipassana (or both simultaneously), or `living without corruptions of insight' as per Yuganadda sutta/AN. Even in the latter there is mention of it leading into appeasement and calm. But rather than looking at the exceptions, if we focus on what is obvious, there is clear need for Samatha and vipassana. Lokuttara panna. Are you talking of magga & phala-citta here? Jhana would be essential if that were the case. But then the way to give rise to that jhana is with simple jhana practice (sutta) and khanika samadhi giving rise to aanantharika samadhi (commentary). I prefer to stay with what 'sutta' practice. >T: So samatha & vipassana implies sati & sampajanna M: Excellent. While I wouldnt equate sati with samadhi, the derivation is worthwhile noting. Thanks for that one Tep. Metta Matheesha 45608 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:02pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) matheesha333 Hi Htoo, I agree with your comments on kusala and bhaavana. Can I ask you how you find time to contribute so much to this group? :) metta Matheesha 45609 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view matheesha333 Hi Charles, > If by sothapanna you mean those that have entered the steam of Dharama, it should be understand that though these individuals have the right view, they have to practice it regularly because the process of automatically taming the desires is not yet accomplished. > > CharlesD M: Yes, of course. Might I also add that there are other views other than self view. It is possible to be attached to all kinds of views and give rise to papanca. metta Matheesha 45610 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:13pm Subject: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah and Htoo - Having adopted the "Butting-in Allowed" policy, I am going ahead with my brief comment. :->)) The one-track central theme of Sarah that keeps repeating; "self", "control", "panna', "present moment", and "conditioned", is not flexible because it is biased. Nothing is wrong with the Dhamma; the Abhidhamma and the Paramattha- dhamma are inside the Teachings (the Tipitaka). But the way the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, not convincing. No doubt why Htoo kept repeating, "I don't understand it". > Htoo: > > You put these complicated. I do not understand your message above. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I do not understand. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I really do not understand. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Not that clear. > Tep: I understand you, Htoo, why you did not understand. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > > Hi Htoo, > > >--- htootintnaing wrote: > > So 'gacchanto vaa gacchaanaamii'ti pajaanaati' is full of sense. > > I do not know what you are referring to 'self'. > ... > > S: So panna can only know the particular characteristic (or reality) > which appears at this very moment or when we are walking. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > No. Only citta can know that. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 45611 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:31pm Subject: What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi Charles > Thanks again Philip, > > What does "sila" and "dana" mean? I thought this question would be a good opportunity for me to review some passages I quoted (and commented on) from Kh Sujin's "Deeds of Merit" about a year ago, but I can't find them. Here is a summary from the above book. YOu'll see that dana is generosity and sila is morality and they make up two of the three branches of meritous deeds. I always keep in mind something I learned from Kh Sujin - if we don't appreciate the importance of dana and sila, we won't be able to develop panna. The thought of developing panna is so sexy that I overlook sila and dana. Metta, Phil 45612 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 4:35pm Subject: What are the paramis ? (was Re: Ken--ultimate (Abhidhamma) view part 2 philofillet Hi again Charles Oops. I snipped the relevant passage by mistake. Here it is from "Deeds of Merit" by Kh Sujin, available at www.dhammastudy.com Summarizing the ten meritorious actions, they are: giving, transference of ones merit and appreciation of someone elses kusala, which are ways of daana, generosity, abstention from akusala, paying respect to those who deserve it and helping, which are ways of siila, the development of calm, listening to the Dhamma and explaining it, and the development of right understanding, which are ways of bhaavanaa, mental development. There is another meritorious action which can go together with all kinds of kusala, namely, the correction of ones views. Seeing kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala is one way of correction of ones views, but there are many degrees of it Metta, Phil 45613 From: "Philip" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Charles, and all Ch:> Allow me to boldly show my arrogance, or Lions Roar, (which ever term you prefer). > > I choose to interpret/understand the term "Noble" as one who is moral, has tamed his/her desires. I choose to interpret/understand the term "disciples" as students of, instructed ones in, the dharma (way). I choose to interpret/understand the term "worldlings" as those that are caught up in self centered thinking, to the extent that morality is not really an issue to them. Ph: Yes, this "choose to interpret" is what we all do with suttas I think, unless we have help from commentaries, or read suttas with knowledge of Abhidhamma, which helps to prevent subjective interpretations. Techinically speaking, you're wrong here - it's pretty clear that "noble" means ariyan (ie at least sotapanna) but I think you know what you're doing. In another post today you lay out some personal theories, but add that you're having fun doing it, and I think having fun is important with Dhamma. ON the other hand, I would take care about setting off on personal interpretation journeys through suttas. How about this for an idea? Accept that "noble" does *not* refer to us and go from there. Maybe we can still benefit from reading about the practices of enligthened people. For example, this morning I read Samyutta Nikaya 22:1, Nakulapita. "And how, householder, is one afflicted in body but not afflicted in mind? Here, householder, the instructed noble disciple, who is a seer of the noble ones and is skilled and disciplined in their Dhamma (phil's note - this is *not* the worldling, not us) does not regard form as self or self as possessing form (snip) he does not live obssessed by the notions: "I am form, form is mine" As he lives unobsessed by these notions, that form of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of form, there do not arise in him sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair." Now, reading this sutta based in your interpretation, we might find ourselves thinking that we can achieve this kind of detachment. And might fool ourselves into thinking we had done so. Better, I think, to realize that this degree of detachment is beyond us for now, but feel gratitude to the Buddha whose teaching makes it possible to aspire to reach this detachment someday, and also, perhpas, benefit to a certain degree from a shallow intellectual detachment, a pale imitation of the noble disciple, which - as long as it is done knowingly, with awareness that it is not the real thing - can still be helpful. I'm afraid that because of the easy access to suttas through the internet, a lot of people are plunging into them and interpreting them in an overly-confident way. I know I did, and still do at times. This can provide us with a feelgood experience, but doesn't bring us any closer to liberation, I think. Which brings up your next point. > Some miserable people need desperately to be fooled for hour (of meditation) into thinking that they are happy and can remain happy if they give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done. And they may need to be fooled, for periods, into believing that they can, both give up and do ... Ph: As I was posting yesterday, re intentionally using metta, I appreciate that Dhamma can have helpful therapeutic benefits even when there is wrong view. I read somewhere, maybe in Tibetan Buddhism, there is talk of the compassion wing and the wisdom wing of Dhamma. Maybe in the compassion wing there is room for interpreting teachings in a way that comfort us even though they do not lead to developing wisdom. As we know, the Buddha is decribed as a teacher who helps many different people in many different ways. > Philip, can you explain the following a little more: > "Another one of my hunches tells me that when people place emphasis > on developing sati intentionally, by formally meditating, believing > that it increases the likelihood of sati increasing, they thereby > come to believe that in daily life there is less likelihood of sati > increasing, and could neglect the duty they have to examine all > experience and come to understand it. (Conditions permitting.)" > > I think you are making a good warning but I am not clear about what you are saying. Ph: In one of the recorded talks I have listened to, there is a man who has come to Bangkok from Europe to be a monk and meditate. He refuses to even consider that when he is sitting in a room talking to people, there is seeing, hearing tasting etc that can be object of satipatthana. He insists that satipatthana can only be developed in his temple on the mountain. It is an extreme example, but I think to a certain extent people who meditate formally can become attached to calm and quiet, and come to feel that only when there is calm and quiet can there be satipatthana. Now I'm sure this isn't the case for people who have a solid understanding of what satipatthana means - they would know that sati can arise anytime, anywhere. >Now the following is clear: > "I still suspect that there are forms of meditation that in the wrong > hands lead to people feeling temporary relief from suffering, but > lead to deepening their roots in samsara, because there is this > belief that kusala cittas can be generated intentionally..." > > However, I am not sure what you mean by "kusala cittas". Ph: A good example would be intentionally generating metta, > What you seem not to accept is the fact that one must begin ... and that requires intent. However, you can argue that it requires the right intent. To have no-intent is the same as saying have no aim in life, this is not for beginning Buddhists. There must be intent and there must be "I"; a health ego is essential for enlightenment to be achieved. Ph: I ahve argued the same thing as recently as six months or so ago. In a discussion with Sarah I said that we should employ the self, hire the self in order to gradually lay it off. Use the self in a process that leads to it being laid-off. So I know what you mean. However, I feel now that especially for westerners we are conditioned from childhood into having such a strong self-identity, such a strong interest in what we accomplish in this one lifetime, that it is really wise to work to intellectually detach ourselves from that as soon as possible. Anatta is the Buddha's most sublime teaching, the one thing that makes Dhamma different from other religions that always teach of an atta, a self or soul. So if we have this opportunity to begin to understood that there is no self that can control cittas, let's take the opportunity. This requires patience and acceptance that radical progress is unlikely in this lifetime - but real progress is, no matter how gradual. I think this is why I've come to appreciate Kh Sujin's guidance so mcuh - the emphasis on patience. But I know what you mean, Charles. And who knows? You may be right. Empasis on "may" ;) Metta, Phil 45614 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (372) lbidd2 Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. Sukha is vedana cetasika (pleasant feeling). Piiti is sankhara khandha cetasika, "suffusing joy". I assume it is important to know the difference between these two because piiti is released before sukha, maybe because piiti is less calm, more energetic. Is sukha a special feeling that only arises with jhana citta? Can there be akusala piiti and sukkha? Larry 45615 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction buddhistmedi... Hi Mike ( anyone who cares to join us, please do) - I read you remark about Sotapanna's view with a curiosity. >Andrew: >>Hence, a sotapanna may indeed experience papanca stemming > > from tanha or mana (but not ditthi). > > Mike: I wrote that attadi.t.thi was a "mental factor which falls into the category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view"; in fact, I think it can either >fall into the existence/eternalist view OR the >nonexistence/annihilationist view. > Tep : So you believe that anyone is a Sotapanna if she/he doesn't have the two extreme views (i.e. "the existence/eternalist view OR the nonexistence/ annihilationist view" ) besides being free from the other two fetters. Now, may I ask you for a clarification? Does it follow that a Stream-winner neither has any view on "no-self", nor any view on "not-self" as well? Why or why not? Yours truly, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 11:31 PM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction > 45616 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 16, 2005 6:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate cause lbidd2 Hi Rob, R: "As Nagasena points out at the beginning of Milindapana, King Milinda's chariot has no ultimate existence as "chariot" is a name / designation / phrase / term / concept / formation representing a group of component parts arranged in a particular manner. Nagasena's focus was not concept vs. reality, but rather anatta." L: Nagasena got this analogy from the nun Vajira in SN. Notice there is a difference between name/concept and group. R: "I agree with you that a concept is a linguistic device, but I see the function of this concept as being mental synthesis. A kalapa is a grouping of ultimate realities whereas other concepts may be grouping together of other things (including other concepts... to create meta-concepts?). Nevertheless, I see formations and concepts as the same thing." L: Do you see concepts as being conditioned and impermanent? Is a kalapa impermanent? R: "Please help me to better understand the difference between concepts and formations according to your definition and, more importantly, what benefit it brings to separate the two definitions." L: One difference is that a formation is many dhammas, a group (khandha), while a concept is only one dhamma. As such, a reality or a concept can be an object of consciousness but a formation can't, because consciousness can have only one object and a group is many objects. One benefit is that you don't have to think of your chariot as a name only. It is a formation, impermanent but without own nature (sabhava). A trickier question is how can something be both impermanent and asabhava. A defining characteristic of sabhava is impermanence. I think we have to say sabhava also means individual in the sense of not perceptually divisible. A formation, of course, is very perceptually divisible, even though technically it isn't an object of consciousness. I am contrasting "perceptually divisible" with "conceptually divisible". Any dhamma can be infinitely conceptually divided but in perceptually dividing a formation you will eventually reach a paramattha dhamma. I think formations are the "real" objects of desire rather than paramattha dhammas or concepts; so, perhaps, that is where we should focus our insight. Although focusing on realities is certainly a valid approach. Larry 45617 From: "mnease" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction mlnease Hi Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view--correction > > Mike: I wrote that attadi.t.thi was a "mental factor which falls into the > category of 'existence' or 'eternalist' view"; in fact, I think it can either > >fall into the existence/eternalist view OR the > >nonexistence/annihilationist view. > > > Tep : So you believe that anyone is a Sotapanna if she/he doesn't > have the two extreme views (i.e. "the existence/eternalist view OR the > nonexistence/ annihilationist view" ) besides being free from the other > two fetters. Not necessarily--I don't see this as a matter of belief, but one of theory. As I understand the texts, all wrong view falls into one category or the other. > Now, may I ask you for a clarification? > > Does it follow that a Stream-winner neither has any view on "no-self", > nor any view on "not-self" as well? Why or why not? "No-self" (as in "I have no self") sounds to me like a kind of conceptual wrong view. "Not-self", on the other hand, in reference to the aggregates, is surely in accord with the Law whether as a concept or as a dhamma. Depending on context, 'view' can refer either to a concept or to a (cetasika) dhamma. One of the dhammas eradicated by stream entry is the dhamma 'wrong view' (together with the dhammas envy, avarice and doubt as I'm sure you're aware). So it certainly seems unlikely to me that the view--in the sense of the concept--of "no-self" would occur to the sotaapanna--but this is a different matter from the eradication of the mental factor of wrong view, I think. Anyway, I think that the occurence of the conceptual view of "no-self" would most likely be conditioned by the presence of the mental factor 'wrong view', absent for the sotaapanna. Being most assuredly NOT a sotapaanna 'myself', I can't be sure, but still hope to find out... Cheers, mike 45618 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. - A Beauty of the Buddha's Teachings. buddhistmedi... Hello, Everyone - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Hasituppada, > I found your letter when I came home. I am sorry you suffered so much from pains and I hope you have fully recovered by now. (snipped) > > > H: But in meditation you see the mind without the "reality of the > > instance", that is a state of a mind released from sorrow , a > > state of a mind released from fear, a state of a mind released from > > pain and discomfort. (4am). > > > > My tooth is very much less painful. I will try to sneak into the bed > > hoping to catch a little sleep. > > > > Pardon me if you consider this unnecessary ranting, > ---------- > N: Not at all, such exchanges are useful. > I see bhavana differently from you. Mental development also includes > considering Dhamma, discussing it, beginning to be aware of what appears right now. I think of Sukin's post on pariyatti, which is far more than just theoretical knowledge. I come back to it, I discussed it with Lodewijk. > For bhavana the kusala citta must be accompanied by paññaa and also by alobha, detachment. We have to ask ourselves: do I learn anything? Is there less attachment to the idea of my thinking, my mind, my pain? Any form of bhavana, samatha and vipassana, must lead to detachment. > Nina. T: Our Great Teacher, the Buddha, had several discourses on overcoming sufferings. The following sutta is very clear and concise. "There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings." A disciple of the Buddha, mindful, clearly comprehending, with his mind collected, he knows the feelings[1] and their origin,[2] knows whereby they cease[3] and knows the path that to the ending of feelings lead.[4] And when the end of feelings he has reached, such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana."[5] [SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta] Comy. notes : [1]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of Suffering. [2]. He knows them by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering. [3]. He knows, by way of the Truth of Cessation, that feelings cease in Nibbana. [4]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. [5]. Parinibbuto, "fully extinguished" through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html Tep : The above discourse clearly explains how to apply the Four Noble Truths in vedana contemplation that leads to Nibbana. What else can be more effective than the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas? Respectfully, Tep ========== 45619 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 16, 2005 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... lbidd2 Hi Charles, What is real is the 5 khandhas and nibbana. Dhammas of the 5 khandhas have the 'general' characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and not self. Besides the 'general' characteristics, each reality has 'particular' characteristics that differentiate it from all other dhammas. What is not ultimately real is concepts. Concepts are not considered to be impermanent or conditioned because they are not real. Additionally concepts have no 'particular' characteristics in the sense of a defining characteristic in themselves. In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on. Particular characteristic is "sabhava" in pali, usually translated as "own nature". The status of "compounded" dhammas is uncertain at the moment. This is partly due to the rather slippery nature of the word "sankhara", which can be translated as conditioned, formed, or compounded. If there is a compound of two realities is that compound a concept because it has no one particular characteristic, or a reality because it is two realities and is impermanent. This difficulty is further exacerbated by the principle that consciousness can have only one object, either one reality or one concept. Is a compound of two dhammas one object or two objects? [The answer depends on whether you answer according to the concept of "compound" or the realities of the two dhammas.] There might also be something in the Useful Posts file at dsg yahoo. Larry ------------------------------- Charles DaCosta: "I am getting the impression that all of you who like to distinguish between what is a reality and ... (using Abhidharma as the basis for the belief) are really trying to say that uncompounded, unconditioned, and permanent things are the only reality (or ultimate realities). Is this true? charlesD PS: I am trying to clearly understand your definitions." 45620 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 16, 2005 11:12pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 196 - Enthusiasm/piiti (n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] In the case of kåmåvacara cittas, píti always arises together with somanassa. In the case of the jhåna-cittas, this is not always so. Píti is one of the jhåna-factors which are developed in samatha in order to inhibit the hindrances(1). Píti inhibits the hindrance which is ill-will (vyåpåda). When there is delight in a meditation subject there is no ill-will or boredom. As we just read, there are five kinds of píti with different intensities. The fifth kind of píti, the “pervading happiness”, which has the greatest intensity, is the “root of absorption” and “comes by growth into association with absorption” (Vis. IV, 99). *** 1) The other jhåna-factors are: vitakka, vicåra, sukha (happy feeling) and samådhi. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45621 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 10:38pm Subject: Slaying Anger ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Only Clever Killing: Sakka - the king of the 33 divinities - once spoke these verses to the Blessed Buddha: Having slain what, does one sleep in peace ? Having slain what, does one never sorrow? What is the one thing 0ohh Gotama Whose killing you approve ? The Blessed One: Having slain Anger, one sleeps in calm ease; Having slain Anger, one does not sorrow The killing of Anger, 0ohh Vasava With its poisoned root and honeyed tip: This is the killing, the Noble Ones approve. For having slain that, one does not grieve. Sakka continued: I am not one easily upset in mind. Nor easily agitated by Anger's whirl. I never become angry for long Nor does Anger hang on in me. When angry, I do not despise. Nor do I praise own qualities. I keep myself well controlled. Protecting my own future good. Therefore: Bring Anger under control; Do not let your friendships decay. Do not blame one who is blameless; Do not speak splitting speech. Like the roaring mountain avalanche Their own Anger crushes evil people. Do not let Anger overpower you; Do not become angry with the angry. Noble Ones always remain harmless. Like a devastating mountain avalanche Their own Hate crushes bad people. Source: The Grouped sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya I 237-40 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45622 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 16, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Matheesha, I hope you and Sukin do have a discussion. It is interesting that you began by laying down the ground rules. I have no qualms with the rules you have suggested, only that you imply Sukin might not "approach with an open mind." DSG was formed to discuss the Theravada Tipitaka and its ancient commentaries, and I know Sukin will approach any discussion along those lines with a completely open mind. But do you expect him to be open-minded as to the value of other philosophies and religions, or of other schools of Buddhism? Must he be prepared to accept the teaching of your personal meditation teacher if that teaching contradicts the selected texts? Ken H > Hi Sukinder, > > I will adress you. > > We can discuss this if you like, but only if you approach with an > open mind. I am not interested in debating with anyone, as it only > leads to more kilesa, and thats not helpful to anyone, and makes > this unpleasant. We can attempt to understand each other better and > treat each other with respect. > > I have nothing to prove to anyone. Nor will I try to get you to take > on my views. > > If you are happy with that, Im happy to discuss the dhamma with you > in mutual curiosity, not forgetting that there are humans behind the > words on screen. If you dont wish to discuss; if youre happy with > what you know, that's also just fine. > > > metta, > > Matheesha 45623 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Tep & Htoo, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Hi Sarah and Htoo - > > Having adopted the "Butting-in Allowed" policy, I am going ahead with > my brief comment. :->)) > > The one-track central theme of Sarah that keeps > repeating; "self", "control", "panna', "present moment", > and "conditioned", is not flexible because it is biased. Nothing is > wrong with the Dhamma; the Abhidhamma and the Paramattha- > dhamma are inside the Teachings (the Tipitaka). ... S: At least we al agree with the last sentence, so this gives us plenty to work with. :) ... >But the way > the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, > not > convincing. .... S: :-/ OK, I'll try to do better next time. .... > > No doubt why Htoo kept repeating, "I don't understand it". ... S: I apologise for this, really. It's not my intention to confuse or condition any annoyance by sounding so inflexible or biased. Tep, you've raised many interesting points in your first post to me on postures etc -- I'm a little behind with a few tasks, so will get back later. Did we finish with our other thread on anatta and the Anattalakkhana Sutta, btw? Metta and apologies again, Sarah p.s DSG views are represented by ALL comments of ALL the participants, most certainly including your own prolific ones. So the 'DSG view' is not at all just what I, Jon, Nina or Sukin says, for example. (at least that's how I see it:-)). ==================== 45624 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:58am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma sukinderpal Hi Matheesha, Sorry if I have offended you. I know I did make an indirect reference to what you said on the list a few weeks ago. But as I said in the letter, and it is always the case with me, that I had in mind something else at the outset, but perhaps because I never plan anything, this letter of mine went another way. Your statement just happen to pop into my mind as I went along and were the conditions slightly different, I probably would have taken another example. But yes, I do like taking examples that others can refer to, and yes, this point was to me a quite obvious and good example of the point I was trying to make. But please don't mind me. I am willing to discuss dhamma with you if you are. I do have an infinite accumulation of mana and much, much dosa to go with that. I realize that it would be ideal to discuss dhamma with metta, but this quality is really in short supply here ;-). In fact when Sarah was last here, I told her about how much I admired Phil's accumulations, in terms of panna and particularly the inclination to metta. I wished that instead of the usual reaction to situations with dosa, how much better life would be if instead there was metta. But now I don't want to think too much along these lines. I can see how this will easily condition the idea of wanting to have metta and somehow relating this with the idea of developing wisdom, and this is wrong view. I can't promise you that this sort of thing won't happen again, and I really don't know what it is to be `open-minded'. Surely this can't be `doubt' which is mistaken as `taking all sides into consideration', i.e. one of the "cheating dhammas"? Being on DSG, one should have plenty of dhamma reminders, but alas, the accumulated panna is still too less. :-( Metta, Sukinder --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > Hi Sukinder, > > I will adress you. > > We can discuss this if you like, but only if you approach with an > open mind. I am not interested in debating with anyone, as it only > leads to more kilesa, and thats not helpful to anyone, and makes > this unpleasant. We can attempt to understand each other better and > treat each other with respect. 45625 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 2:54pm Subject: dana and sila nilovg Hi Philip, Philip writes to Charles: > What does "sila" and "dana" mean? I thought this question would be a good opportunity for me to review some passages I quoted (and commented on) from Kh Sujin's "Deeds of Merit" about a year ago, but I can't find them. Here is a summary from the above book. YOu'll see that dana is generosity and sila is morality and they make up two of the three branches of meritous deeds. ---------- N: dana not only includes giving material things, also appreciation of other people's good deeds, and 'extending merit'. The last one is letting others, dead or alive, know of our kusala so that they also have kusala cittas. Also keeping the precepts can be seen under the aspect of dana: you give others the opportunity to live in peace, without trouble. Also forgiving is a form of dana, you wish others to be free from harm. As to sila, this is any kind of good deed through body and speech. Helping others, being courteous, polite in manners, paying respect, all these things are included. Even satipatthana through which the six doors are guarded can be seen as sila. The Visuddhimagga begins with the lower sila and ends even with lokuttara citta as sila. So you see that there is no rigid classification as dana, sila and bhavana, they are intertwined. ------- Ph: I always keep in mind something I learned from Kh Sujin - if we don't appreciate the importance of dana and sila, we won't be able to develop panna. The thought of developing panna is so sexy that I overlook sila and dana. ------- N: So this becomes clearer. Dana, sila and bhavana are closely connected. But this is important: we have to learn that kusala citta and all those sobhana cetasikas that assist kusala citta are only namas, citta and cetasikas, arising because of the proper conditions. That is: good friendship, accumulation of kusala in the past, wise attention. Cittas are so fast, they have gone before you know it, and thus, how could we direct them? It is important not to take kusala for self. We learn this through satipatthana, awareness of nama and rupa. And satipatthana conditions all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. It is kusala to see akusala as a condiitoned nama. Nina. 45626 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 2:54pm Subject: feelings nilovg Hi Tep and all, Thank you Tep for quoting the sutta and adding co. notes. I add a few remarks. Comy. notes : [1]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of Suffering. --------- N: To know feeling as dukkha, that also means: realizing the arising and falling away of feeling, because what is impermanent has no core, it cannot be a refuge. Feeling is nama, and how is nama realized? Through the mind-door. Do we know what the mind-door is? We only know the name mind-door. Rupa such as hardness can be known through the bodydoor and the mind-door, but just now the mind-door is concealed. It seems that we only know the body-door. This is different at the first stage of insight knowledge, which discerns the difference between nama and rupa through the mind-door. Then it is known what the mind-door is. Just now I read about feelings, think about them, but in fact I only know a concept of feeling. Why is that? Because I do not realize feeling yet as pure nama, different from rupa. Tep, you may find this biassed, but I believe that only by being aware of nama or rupa that appears now, the difference between nama and rupa can be learnt, and this very gradually. If there is no awareness of what appears at this moment we can only speculate, guess, think of realities. Then knowledge can never be very precise. ---------- Tep: [2]. He knows them by way of the Truth of the Origin of Suffering. --------- N: This is clinging. We cling to all feelings, in fact to all namas and rupas, to insight. Only when nama is realized as nama, can we know what clinging is: a conditioned nama. ------------ Tep: [3]. He knows, by way of the Truth of Cessation, that feelings cease in Nibbana. [4]. He knows the feelings by way of the Truth of the Path leading to the Cessation of Suffering. [5]. Parinibbuto, "fully extinguished" through the full extinction of the defilements (kilesa-parinibbanaya). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-001.html Tep : The above discourse clearly explains how to apply the Four Noble Truths in vedana contemplation that leads to Nibbana. What else can be more effective than the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas? ---------- N: The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense-door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. Nina. 45627 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:20am Subject: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up sarahprocter... Hi Htoo & all, I have a collection of your DT posts in front of me (and a few non-DTs which have 'crept' or 'butted' in) and I just wish to give a little feedback. It’s a long time since I did this, but have only just got up to date. Firstly, I thought the long series on kamma and the 4 sets with all the repetitions were very good and helpful. Also the series before that on sobhana and asobhana cittas. Nothing at all to ‘pick at’ in the kamma series:-) Well done. I learnt a lot. Also punna kiriya vatthu (meritorious deeds) etc – all very fine imho. The new jhana set started off really well with lots of useful info, up to about DT379 I think. When it comes to bhavana -- samatha or vipassana -- many differences, but I won't repeat all of those here, you'll be glad to know. Now the ‘picky’ parts just according to how I see them, rightly or wrongly(!!), (leaving aside ‘walking meditation’ here :-)). 1.#44020 – we have different ideas of when ditthi arises (the child listening with lobha but who doesn’t know kamma well – no ditthi as you explain it) and at the end, it is dosa mula citta when people are upset. 2. #43934 – you say kamavacara cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 30 asobhana cittas and 24 sobhana cittas. Surely, asobhana includes akusala? 3.#44094 – you say adosa can be called metta. I think it’s better to say that when adosa appears as the brahma vihara, metta, it has the characteristic of caring and being friendly to living beings. There is adosa accompanying all sobhana cittas, but not metta. I think we’ve agreed this a few times:). 4. #44065 – a Qu. I u’stand that in arupa brahma realms there is no dosa. You say this is b.c. ‘all jhanas rupa or arupa become jhanas only after complete clearing of dosa’. I think I’m missing sth in the logic. Surely lobha is ‘cleared out’ in jhana too. 5.#44160 – you say that ‘panatta seems stable, permanent, eternal and that is why jhanas are unshakable and like mountains’. I agreed with yr other comments on pannatti, but here it sounds like some wrong views make jhanas unshakable, rathter than the sobhana cittas and factors. Also you say to Geoff that ‘as soon as paramattha dhamma is taken as object, .....kammavacara mahakusala citta ......’. I think I know what you mean, but of course many ahetuka and akusala cittas also take paramattha dhamma as object, surely? 6. #44852 – side note/qu – interested to read more about upaghataka kamma (cutting kamma) and its role in ‘eradicating all potentials’. You mention about the arahant’s case and all existing kamma leading to future rebirths abolished. Also, I think it plays its role at stage of sotapatti magga, ‘abolishing’ all previous kamma that could lead to rebirth in hell realms etc (7. #45242 – a real side note – thx for all your help with Pali terms, Htoo...you explain them v. well.) 8. #45326 – on ‘first-hand objects’ referring to the 7 rupas experienced thr’ the sense doors. I don’t think we can say that other rupas experienced through the mind-door only are not ‘first-hand’. 9. #45522 – on metta again. Can you give me a reference to a sutta or text which contains the pali you quote for, ‘may I be free from enemies...danger...suffering....healthy and wealthy’. I agree that ‘One’s self is the most deared one in 31 realms’. This being so, perhaps we need to be less concerned rather than more concerned with ‘me’:). I have a few more, but there are enough here for now and I have to go out. [to be contd:)]. Metta, Sarah ======= 45628 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 5:17am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Dear Sarah and Htoo {Attn. Nina, Jon, ... } - Your nice-and-kind reply, which is a moderator's excellent quality, is truly appreciated: S: At least we all agree with the last sentence, so this gives us plenty to work with. :) ... S: :-/ OK, I'll try to do better next time. .... S: I apologise for this, really. It's not my intention to confuse or condition any annoyance by sounding so inflexible or biased. T: May I apologize for my annoyed remarks too, Sarah? I'll try to show zero annoyance from now. ------------------------------------ S: Did we finish with our other thread on anatta and the Anattalakkhana Sutta, btw? T: Not yet. I'll wrap it up either by today or tomorrow, Sarah. ----------------------------------- S: ...the 'DSG view' is not at all just what I, Jon, Nina or Sukin says, for example. (at least that's how I see it:-)). T: The management's view is the dominating view, in general. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep & Htoo, > > S: At least we al agree with the last sentence, so this gives us plenty to > work with. :) > ... > >T: But the way > > the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, > > not convincing. > .... > ==================== 45629 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/16/05 11:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on. ==================== Are you absolutely sure of this, Larry? Speaking ordinary-speak for the moment, Larry, pleasantness also is a matter of convention. And what we call "red" is a matter of convention. Is it TWO, per se, that is a matter of convention, or is it what we CALL "two" that is the matter of convention? There is talk at places in Abhidhamma of dyads. Calling them that is a matter of convention, but are pairs truly unreal? Is up-down unreal, forwards-backwards, left-right? In fact, let's look at left-right: Physicists even apply that at the quantum level, I believe. Now, it is a social convention as to what is called "left" and what is called "right", but is the pair itself purely conventional and completely unreal? All normal human adults are aware of the pair, and can distinguish left from right. There is something VERY interesting about left and right. We all know which is which, and even without names we can distinguish them. I challenge you, however, to verbally define her one of them!!! It seems they have more of a physical reality than a conceptual, definitional one!!! I believe that the notion of "real" is far less simple than any of us believes. I think that what is important for us to come to see is the compromised status of *everything*, the lack of solid, dependable, substantial existence, and for us to come to see the middle-way, dependent, conditioned, impermanent, ungraspable, unsatisfying, and empty nature of every aspect of the all, and to develop a thoroughgoing carte blanche dis-enchantment. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45630 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 2:03am Subject: Typo Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 8:33:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I challenge you, however, to verbally define her one of them!!! =================== The nonsense word 'her' was supposed to be 'either'. Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45631 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 6:39am Subject: Re: feelings buddhistmedi... Hi Nina and others - I think the message that I sent along with the SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta, is that this Buddha's discourse is simple and perfect for practitioners; there is no need for the bhikkhus (and real Buddhists) to know all the details about the Paramattha-dhamma principles [ rupa, hardness, body-door, mind-door, nama, the first stage of insight knowledge or higher, etc. ] These detailed knowledges are very good when one has intellectual doubts about how the cittas and cetasikas operate at the micro level. This may be analogous to physicists, who know the details of physical laws and theories of molecules, and electrical engineers who don't know much details about the molecular theories but they can design and build electrical systems and devices. A danger inevitably results when one is too fascinated by the beautiful theories to neglect practicing according to the suttas (Buddha's discourses). Why did our Lord Buddha not talk about the micro Paramattha-dhamma in this SN XXXVI.1 or most other suttas? That was the message I sent. N: Tep, you may find this biassed, but I believe that only by being aware of nama or rupa that appears now, the difference between nama and rupa can be learnt, and this very gradually. If there is no awareness of what appears at this moment we can only speculate, guess, think of realities. Then knowledge can never be very precise. T: I think you are the least biased Abhidhammika I have ever known, Nina. But such ability of seeing and knowing nama and rupa precisely is the consequence of samatha-vipassana bhavana everyday to develop awareness (sati-sampajanna), not to be gained by reading the books, writing about the Abhidhamma and discussing it everyday. This issue is the most difficult one to get across. -------------- N: We cling to all feelings, in fact to all namas and rupas, to insight. Only when nama is realized as nama, can we know what clinging is: a conditioned nama. T: How do we get to know that clinging is a conditioned dhamma without an appropriate vipassana-nana? If the detailed Abhidhamma knowledge and devotion without meditation can get anyone to a magga-nana, then I don't have anymore argument: the case is closed! -------------- N: The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense- door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. T: I like the "some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma" and agree with it -- as I explained above-- but one should never be obsessed with and clinging to the micro knowledges , otherwise the danger is unavoidable. You are clearly an exception. It is always great for me to discuss the Dhamma with you, Nina. Thank you again. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep and all, > Thank you Tep for quoting the sutta and adding co. notes. I add a few > remarks. > Comy. notes : > 45632 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:46pm Subject: pariyatti, by Sukin, continued. nilovg Dear Sukin and all, I read Sukin's post on pariyatti twice to Lodewijk on his request. I shall quote some parts of it again, with remarks added. ------------ S: Pariyatti is not mere `knowledge of Dhamma'. So when one reads the Dhamma, there can be moments of pariyatti or there can be none. ... One important aspect of pariyatti is that it points to the dhamma arising in the present moment. ----------- Lodewijk: it begins to dawn on me how crucial it is that Kh. Sujin emphasizes all the time that the present object has to be understood. As soon as one moves away from the present object one is immediately in the world of concepts. She stresses that we should understand this moment of kusala or akusala. It seems so simple but it is deep, and therefore, the development of understanding is bound to take a long time. ------------- Sukin: Also it is not something that a `self' can decide to use in practice as one would do with other conventional knowledge and activities. It is after all a fleeting conditioned dhamma, which when arisen, falls away instantly. When for example, it is pointed out that `seeing' is a reality, and that this experiences `visible object', one's attention is bent towards this very phenomena. ----------- L: Very well expressed:one's attention is bent towards this very phenomenon. Seeing and visible object appearing now should be stressed. In a few words Sukin expressed the essence, this is very impressive. Now there seems to be a great mass of impressions, but it is different when the attention is bent towards only one object. --------------- S: The level of understanding may not be such that the characteristic of seeing or visible object appears to panna. However,there is a lower level of panna which understands this intellectually and with some confidence. -------- L: Confidence is very important: also a lower level of paññaa gives confidence in the Path. ---------- S: At such beginning level, there is already a planting the seed of understanding which relates to the development of satipatthana. One knows that it is *this* that needs to be understood through direct experience. ------------ L: planting the seed of understanding, very well expressed. ----------- S: The understanding becomes firmer as such kind of study happens more and more. And along the way when patipatti also arises, then this can reach the level of saccannana. -------------- Nina: there are three levels of understanding the four noble Truths: sacca ñaa.na, knowledge of what the noble truths are, kicca ñaa.na, knowledge of the practice, and kata ñaa.na, knowledge of realization (what has been done, kata). sacca ñaa.na is firm understanding of what has to be realized, what dukkha is, what its cause, how its cessation can be reached, firm understanding of the right Path. It is not theoretical understanding. -------------- S: The theory has been verified through experience to the extent that one is firm about the object to be studied and that the practice is all about this very moment, and not some other time, place or activity. ------------ N: This is pariyatti that has reached the level of sacca ñaa.na. As Kh Sujin also said, pariyatti is understanding of the reality that appears now. We shall see that direct understanding of realities confirms all that we learnt from the texts. ------------ S: To repeat, this is the way, in my opinion, that the development of wisdom takes place. The understanding that it is all about presently arisen dhammas, with the support of the other sobhana cetasikas bends the mind to the present moment. ----------- N: We learnt just now from the Visuddhimagga (sankhaarakkhandha) about all the sobhana cetasikas that support the kusala citta which develops vipassanaa. We see to what extent that citta is conditioned by all these sobhana cetasikas of paññaa, detachment, non-aversion, sati, confidence, lightness, wieldiness and others. ------------ S: In the beginning the understanding is weak; perhaps one has had little experience of one `world' at a time, that only intellectual appreciation can arise. However I think that it is by the same kind of conditioning factor that moments of actual experience arises, not by will, but by accumulated understanding. And this leads to greater understanding of the six worlds separately. --------- N: Lodewijk and I discussed how important a correct understanding of accumulation is. When we listen and consider with right understanding of what we hear, understanding accumulates, little by little. --------- S: Pativedha is when the insight knowledge arises, but this can only happen with the kind of practice which does not move away from the presently arisen dhamma to a more idealized situation or object. Therefore I think it is crucial to have a correct appreciation of pariyatti and what it is really about. ------------------ Lodewijk: this is most important, the *correct* appreciation of pariyatti. --------------- N: I just quote from my Letters on Vipassana no 9: It appears now, it has its own characteristic, nobody can change it. Visible object is just a reality, it is not a person or a tree, as we used to think. When we hear that it is a reality and that we cannot do anything about it reminds us of the nature of anatta of visible object. It appears already and understanding of it can be naturally developed. It seems that we see immediately a chair or a flower, but if there were no thinking could there be any idea about visible object? Seeing and thinking arise closely one after the other and gradually their different characteristics can be known. ****** Nina. 45633 From: nina Date: Mon May 16, 2005 7:46pm Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 158 and Tiika nilovg Vism.XIV,158, supramundane path-consciousness: Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the lokuttara kusala cittas of the four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, of the once-returner, of the non-returner and of the arahat. At each of these stages defilements are successively eradicated. The lokuttara citta is accompanied by paññaa, sati, concentration, confidence, alobha, adosa and other sobhana cetasikas which have reached a high degree and which each perform their own function while they experience nibbaana. For those who have developed insight as well as jhaana, lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by jhaana-factors of the different stages of jhaana. In that case, the four magga-cittas that are accompanied by jhaana-factors of the five stages of jhaana are classified as twenty lokuttara jhaanacittas. For those who did not develop jhaana, the lokuttara magga-citta is accompanied by right concentration that has the strength of the first stage of jhaana. In this section the Vis. refers to the lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhaana-factors of the five stages of jhaana. Those who develop immaterial jhaana, aruupa-jhaana, have the same type of jhaanacitta as the ruupa-jhaanacitta of the fifth stage and thus the lokuttara citta is accompanied by jhaana-factors of the fifth stage. ****** Text Vis.: (18)-(21) As regards the supramundane, firstly, in the case of the path consciousness having the first jhana they should be understood to be as stated in the case of the first fine-material-sphere consciousness (9). The paths classed as belonging to the second jhana, etc., should be understood to be as stated in the cases [respectively] of the second fine-material-sphere jhana, and so on (10)-(13). ---------------- N: The Tiika explains that the word Œaadi¹, Œand so on¹, refers to the third, fourth and fifth fine-material-sphere jhaana. ----------- Text Vis.: But the difference here is absence of compassion (xxxii) and gladness (xxxiii), [67] constancy of the abstinences (xxxiv-xxxvi), and supramundaneness. ---------------------- Note 67, taken from the Tiika: 'Because the path consciousnesses have nibbana as their object and because compassion, gladness, etc., have living beings as their object, there is no compassion, etc., in the path' (Pm. 491). ----------- N: The Tiika explains that sometimes the magga-citta is without the path-factor of right thought, sammaasa²nkappa, and this is the case when it is accompanied by the jhaana-factors of the second, third, fourth and fifth stages of jhaana, which are without the jhaana-factor vitakka, applied thought. Only the jhaanacitta of the first stage is accompanied by vitakka, and after that stage it is abandoned. As to constancy or fixedness (niyaamataa) of the abstinences, the Tiiika explains that all three viratis, abstinences, accompany the lokuttara cittas, because the ariyamagga cuts off the conditions for wrong conduct through body and speech and wrong livelihood. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, they may arise one at a time, and then there is abstention from wrong speech, action and livelihood as the case demands. In the case of lokuttara magga-cittas, the object of citta and its accompanying cetasikas is nibbaana. At that moment there is no opportunity for transgression, but lokuttara cittas cut off the bases of wrong conduct and livelihood and they fulfil their functions as the path-factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood. **** Conclusion: When mahaa-kusala citta of the sense-sphere accompanied by paññaa develops the eightfold Path, it is accompanied by five or six factors, not by all eight factors. When there is an opportunity for abstention from wrong conduct, it is accompanied by one virati cetasika at a time, and in that case the mahaa-kusala citta is accompanied by six factors. When lokuttara citta arises, it is accompanied by all three virati cetasikas. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 73): We may keep the five precepts for a long time, but this does not mean that the conditions for coarse akusala have been eradicated. We cannot be sure what kind of misconduct we are capable of. Paññaa has to be developed so that enlightenment can be attained, and at that moment conditions for misconduct are cut off. ******* Nina. 45634 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (376) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: Hi Htoo, I agree with your comments on kusala and bhaavana. Can I ask you how you find time to contribute so much to this group? :) metta Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Dear Matheesha, People are always saying that they do not have time. I also do not have time. But I can share my breath. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: I can share my bread and breath. Time is money. Money is bread. Bread is life. Life can only be shared with metta. 45635 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (383) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 4 mahaabuuta objects or 4 great elements for kasina kammatthana apart from 4 colours. They are 1. pathavii or earth 2. tejo or fire 3. vayo or wind 4. apo or water For water kasina or apo kasina kammatthaana, it is possible to use natural water pool like ponds, lakes, streams, rivers etc etc. But it can be prepared as an indoor object. Use a clean and clear water. Put them in a container say about a diameter of 2 feet. The container should not have attractive colour so that the object water cannot be distracted to colour of the container. The initial object for water kasina or apo kasina kammatthaana is visual object of water. When mental image arises the image of water and water container can clearly be recognised through the mind without opening eyes. When this appears that new object is called uggaha nimitta. At a time there arises another object in the mind and it is similar to the mentalk image but not exactly. It is just a counter image of the mental image. It is brilliant and beautiful. It is patibhaaga nimitta and it is pannatti. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45636 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:35am Subject: Re: Leading others to practice htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: The dhamma is like a snake. metta Matheesha -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Matheesha, Could you please explain your words 'The dhamma is like a snake' in connection with your copied post of 'Nanda Thera', who had been to be married with Janapadakalayyanii Nanda. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45637 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (372) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your reply. Sukha is vedana cetasika (pleasant feeling). Piiti is sankhara khandha cetasika, "suffusing joy". I assume it is important to know the difference between these two because piiti is released before sukha, maybe because piiti is less calm, more energetic. Is sukha a special feeling that only arises with jhana citta? Can there be akusala piiti and sukkha? Larry -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Larry, Vedana or feeling is a universal cetasika or universal mental factor. This cetasika arises with each and every citta that arises at any time. There are akusala piiti and akusala sukha. Examples are kaama piiti and kaama sukha. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45638 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > I think the Buddha criticized ritual because most (99.9%) of the rituals he saw (in ancient India) could do nothing to aid in the escape from samsara or end suffering. > > Rituals that instilled principles like humility and kindness the Buddha liked because he felt they ripened the mind for his Dharma. > > CharlesD -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Charles, Thanks for your participation. Once there were people who had believed other religion. When they became Buddhists they were still encourage to do their usual things like giving food and offering things to their teachers of other religion. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45639 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (384) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread is discussing on kamma currently. Kaamavacara kamma have been discussed. Now ruupaavacara kamma are being discussed. 1st jhaana has been defined. There are 26 kammatthaanas that can give rise to 1st jhaana. Among them 8 kasinas have been discussed. There are 4 colour kasinas or 4 vanna kasinas. They are niila or blue, piita or yellow, lohita or red, and odaata or white kasina. There are 4 elemental kasinas. They are pathavi kasina or earth kasina, tejo kasina or fire kasina, vayo kasina or wind kasina, and apo kasina or water kasina. Still there are 2 other kasinas. They are aloka kasina or light-spot kasina and aakaasa kasina or space kasina. Aloka kasina or light kasina can be practised on any natural light like moon, sun, and also on man-made light like fluoresent tube light, electric light bulb's light without being specially prepared. For indoor purpose, one may prepare for aloka kasina. The room has to be in the dark and a single light spot can be created by making a hole through which light is cast and producing light spot. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45640 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, [hoping not disturbed] ;-) Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, Sarah's catching up point 2 : You summarised points and at number 2 you indicated; 2. #43934 – you say kamavacara cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 30 asobhana cittas and 24 sobhana cittas. Surely, asobhana includes akusala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: My thought at that time might have been; 'kamavacara cittas are 12 akusala cittas, 18 ahetuka cittas and 24 sobhana cittas'. I think my thought had overshot to '24 kama sobhana cittas' and so I automatically wrote '30 asobhana cittas' just in front of 24 sobhana cittas. I admit that I made a mistake. Thanks for your summary of responses. With respect, Htoo Naing 45641 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:43am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, ;-) Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dear Sarah, Your summary point 3: 3.#44094 – you say adosa can be called metta. I think it's better to say that when adosa appears as the brahma vihara, metta, it has the characteristic of caring and being friendly to living beings. There is adosa accompanying all sobhana cittas, but not metta. I think we've agreed this a few times:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. And we have agreed. I wrote 'can be'. I did not write 'adosa is metta' which essentially means 'adosa = metta'. But when it is generally considered there are many adosa, which are not metta. Cetasika-wise it is the same. Metta has the direction and it is to 'satta pannatta' or 'beings'. Metta has greater implication than adosa, which is a unit of nama dhamma. Thanks for your full feedback. With respect, Htoo Naing 45642 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (385) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 kasina kammatthaana or 10 kasina objects for samatha mewditation. They are 1. pathavi kasina or earth kasina 2. tejo kasina or fire kasina 3. vayo kasina or wind kasina 4. apo kasina or water kasina 5. nila kasina or blue kasina 6. pita kasina or yellow kasina 7. lohita kasina or red kasina 8. odata kasina or white kasina 9. aloka kasina or light kasina 10.akasa kasina or space kasina To practise akasa kasina or space kasina, one may use naturally occurring space like the sky, a hole, a cave, a viaduct etc etc. But for indoor purpose, one may create an object for akasa kasina. It is essential that the room is higher than other buildings in the surroundings and there must not be any visual obstructions like bushes, mountains, houses and buildings when indoor object is made. The window of the room has to fix with a thick paper and at the centre there has to be made a hole of about 2 feet, through which there has to be no other visual object. Initially, the space between the margin of the paper is centred. When the space can well be recognised in the mind, it is possible that the space in visual object can clearly be seen in the mind so clearly that all the details are the same as the visual object. When this happen, it is called mental image of visual object and that object or arammana is called uggaha nimitta. At another time when more mature, there arises another image, which is similar to mental image. But it is much more beautiful and brilliant than mental image. That new object just exists in the mind and it is not a real one. It is called patibhaaga nimitta and it is pannatti. When this object arises, the mind is well calm and tranquilised and there is no hindrance at all and all the 5 factors or jhaana or 5 jhanangas are working well. At that time, mental state can be called as 1st jhaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45643 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:57am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 4. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, :-)) Metta, Sarah ======= ------------------------------ Sarah's summary points 4: 4. #44065 – a Qu. I u'stand that in arupa brahma realms there is no dosa. You say this is b.c. `all jhanas rupa or arupa become jhanas only after complete clearing of dosa'. I think I'm missing sth in the logic. Surely lobha is `cleared out' in jhana too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Another explanation is that 'dosa cittas' always arise on the ground of hadaya vatthu. In arupa brahmas there is no hadaya vatthu. So there is no dosa. If so what about rupa brahmas? Rupa brahmas also do not have dosa. They do not have dosa through out their lifespan. Regarding lobha, they cleanse 'kaamacchanda'. But they cannot cleanse bhava tanha, which is lobha. There are 10 akusala cittas that brahmas can have. 2 dosa cittas are excluded as they never have dosa at all. 10 akusala cittas are 2 moha cittas and 8 lobha cittas. They may have lobha. But that lobha does not include kaama raaga or sexual desire. Before they are reborn at brahma bhuumis, they already cleansed kaama raaga and dosa. This is a bit complicated. Nina may have some comments on this matter. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45644 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 8. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, [to be contd:)]. Metta, Sarah ======= -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Sarah, Your summarised point 8: 8. #45326 – on `first-hand objects' referring to the 7 rupas experienced thr' the sense doors. I don't think we can say that other rupas experienced through the mind-door only are not `first-hand'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The object that comes first is first-hand object. 7 rupas serve as 1st- hand objects. In a life there are sense-door consciousness and mind-door consciousness. Mind-door consciousness receive sense-door consciousness as sense-door consciousness know. Here eye, ear, nose, tongue, body receive the object first. But the mind receives it at a later time. Other rupa experienced through mind door are 1. 5 panca pasada rupas These are only known after learning. 2. 16 sukhuma rupa or 16 subtle matters Example vaci-vinatti cannot be known by 'only mind door'. The mind will never know vaci-vinatti without the help of ear-consciousness. So vaci- vinatti is not a first-hand object. With respect, Htoo Naing 45645 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah catching up 9. htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Htoo & all, [to be contd:)]. Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Dear Sarah, Your summary point 9 says: 9. #45522 – on metta again. Can you give me a reference to a sutta or text which contains the pali you quote for, `may I be free from enemies...danger...suffering....healthy and wealthy'. I agree that `One's self is the most deared one in 31 realms'. This being so, perhaps we need to be less concerned rather than more concerned with `me':). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Sarah, 'Aham avero homi, aham abyapajjo homi, aham anigho homi, aham sukhi attaanam parihaaraami' and 4 outward citations that is 'sabbe sattaa avera hontu, sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu, sabbe sattaa anighaa hontu, sabbe sattaa sukhi attaanam pariharantu' were seen in a text. It was long long ago. I just draw out from my memory box inside my brain. I just do not remember what text it was and what sutta it was. What is sure is that it is not creation. It is from ancient texts. 4 citations on 5 general beings = 20 metta 4 citations on 7 less general beings = 28 metta metta in general (20 + 28 ) = 48 metta 48 metta to 10 directions = 480 metta 48 metta in general = 48 metta metta in total = 528 metta These are just general. Metta can go to specific general group or specific individual. When I say this I just remember 'radiation of metta to effect others'. Once when The Buddha was under a tree, He was aimed by an archer. The Buddha's metta went to that archer. The archer could not deload his arrow because of metta. Another 30 archers also could not deload their arrows because of metta. [Remembering Robert K] With respect, Htoo Naing 45646 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread (386) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 10 asubha kammatthaanas. All these 10 kammatthaana have the power to give rise to 1st jhaana. For initial practice, one will need to look at actual dead body as initial object. There are precautions that should be borne before asubha kammatthaanas are being carried out. Even though all these 10 asubha kammatthaanas are good to practise, they are not suited to everyone. Asubha kammatthaanas are especially suitable for those who have very strong lust or kaama raaga or strong sexual desire. One notice! All kammatthaanas are for sound people. All kammatthaanas are for sane person. All kammatthaanas are for mentally sound individuals. So if one has a mental disease, he or she should consult mental doctors first instead of following instructions for kammatthaana. This does not mean that 'fools' 'the insane' 'mentally unsound people' are not suited to kammatthaanas. This will depend on their disease and their degrees of mental disturbances. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45647 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:25pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep and Sarah, You make some very astute remarks, in your posts to Sarah, which I want to draw attention to: Post #45628 S: ...the 'DSG view' is not at all just what I, Jon, Nina or Sukin says, for example. (at least that's how I see it:-)). T: The management's view is the dominating view, in general. James: This is very true and Sarah (the central leader), Jon, and Nina have to realize the influence they manifest and the responsibility they hold. To deny this influence and responsibility is not wholesome. Post#45610 T: The one-track central theme of Sarah that keeps repeating; "self", "control", "panna', "present moment", and "conditioned", is not flexible because it is biased. Nothing is wrong with the Dhamma; the Abhidhamma and the Paramattha-dhamma are inside the Teachings (the Tipitaka). But the way the "central theme" is applied is wrong, ineffective, and, therefore, not convincing. James: This is also very true; in the early days of my membership I would often tell Sarah that she sounded like a broken record. Unfortunately, she wore that description like a badge of honor. However, being inflexible and narrow-minded is nothing to be proud of. Additionally, the one theme that Sarah doesn't consistently repeat, which she should, is `nibbana'. The theme of nibbana should be repeated again and again because that is the ultimate goal. The Buddha mentions nibbana in practically every sutta, and yet Sarah (in all her numerous posts) hardly mentions nibbana at all. I think that says something. Metta, James 45648 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 2:15pm Subject: Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah - This is my reply to your message # 45440 about self and no self. Agreed Points -------------------- # Because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to disease, and they cannot be controlled according to one's wishes. The logical deduction that follows is that it would be wrong to have the following viewpoint on each of the five aggregates : 'This is mine, this is I, this is my self'. Such a self view is a miccha-ditthi. # Clinging can be either on right view or a wrong view. # Miccha-ditthi is a khandha – it is included in sankhara khandha. An Unresolved issue ------------------------------ Sarah: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and not real. Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is thus an illusion. Tep: By having the belief that there is no self (self is not real, not existing), isn't that an extreme view? The two estremes are the view of 'no self' and the view that self exists. The Dialogue Continues ------------------------------------ S: ... the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer or body or whatever else, are not real at all. The self or computer cannot be seen or heard or touched, they can only be imagined. Please let me know if this is still not clear. T: It is not clear, Sarah, because everybody else will tell you that a computer and a body can be seen or heard of, and both can be touched. I assume that you also believe that money is a pannatti and so it is not real!! But still you depend on it, and if someone steals all your money you would be very sad. How can you then say that money is a concept? :-) >T: Look, you might miss a chance to abandon your extreme view of no self! [ :->) ... S: It referred to pretty well everything I'd said in the last post so far...OK, I'll fish it out and check, see* T: Sincerely, Sarah, the fished-out stuff (*) does not indicate that you understand why the view on " no self " and the view on "there is a self" [non-existence and existence views] are two extremes. Please read the following excerpts to review the concept of extreme views. [Thanissaro] Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. [MN 2] I have a self... I have no self... It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self... or... This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Tep, > (snipped) > ... > S:(referring to "therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and > > self is > > thus an illusion".) Right we agree. The khandhas are mere elements > > (dhatus) which are not in anyone's conrol or command as the sutta > > extract shows. They are anatta, however much illusion there is to the > > contrary. > .... > S: No:-) I stand by this interpretation. See above. Oh well, you were > warned:-). > ... 45649 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] feelings dacostacharles Hi all, Good Discussion. Nina, I had to comment on you last paragraph, you stated, "The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense-door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. " My comments are that the suttas also provides the needed basic notions of: Abhidhamma, sense-door and mind-door, processes, stages of insight, but I don't recall them covering the difference between concepts and realities. To compensate for this, the suttas teach the way to freedom is by non-attachment to both concepts and realities, so their differences become unimportant. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: nina To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 16 May, 2005 23:54 Subject: [dsg] feelings Hi Tep and all, ... Tep : The above discourse clearly explains how to apply the Four Noble Truths in vedana contemplation that leads to Nibbana. What else can be more effective than the Buddha's Teachings in the suttas? ---------- N: The suttas are important, they truly remind me not to be neglectful. But I would go wrong if I would not have some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma. I would be lost if I would be ignorant of sense-door and mind-door, of processes, of stages of insight. I would not know the difference between concepts and realities. Nina. 45650 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view dacostacharles You got it. ----- Original Message ----- From: matheesha To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 01:11 Subject: [dsg] Re: Papanca and self-view Hi Charles, > If by sothapanna you mean those that have entered the steam of Dharama, it should be understand that though these individuals have the right view, they have to practice it regularly because the process of automatically taming the desires is not yet accomplished. > > CharlesD M: Yes, of course. Might I also add that there are other views other than self view. It is possible to be attached to all kinds of views and give rise to papanca. metta Matheesha 45651 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results dacostacharles Hi Philip and all, My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat others. Maybe some one else will find the suttras I am speaking of, I have not look into them since the mid 70's. Now, I am bias, I believe the Buddha expected his teachings to guide people to enlightenment in one life time, and the teachings are usually easy to understand but often hard to do. This is because they require self-sacrifice, the sacrifice of Desire (this is what separated the nobles and ariyans from the worldlings). To the Buddha, Nobles and ariyans are self-sacrificing rather than animal-sacrificing. .................................. Some thing else: even the meanings/teachings of Abhidhamma often suffers do to subjective interpretations. I think you are interpreting noble and ariyan to mean "at least sotapanna". And I do not remember them having any thing to do with sotapanna. Yes, it is true that sometimes all WE can hope for is a brief experience of liberation, but I don't think it is as far away as you think. Yes, you have to give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done, and it is very very tough -- not impossible unless you really don't want it. .......................... The no-self doctrine also exist in religions like Satanism, evolution, and extreme capitalism. In the Buddha's day there was also another group that believed in the no-self (the anilist). ............................. I believe it is true that it is harder today than it was in the Buddha's day. However, I believe there are people who do it to the extreme (you expect) but you would think of them as homeless bums sleeping on the corner. CharlesD ----- Original Message ----- From: Philip To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 02:09 Subject: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results Hi Charles, and all Ch:> Allow me to boldly show my arrogance, or Lions Roar, (which ever term you prefer). > > I choose to interpret/understand the term "Noble" as one who is moral, has tamed his/her desires. I choose to interpret/understand the term "disciples" as students of, instructed ones in, the dharma (way). I choose to interpret/understand the term "worldlings" as those that are caught up in self centered thinking, to the extent that morality is not really an issue to them. Ph: Yes, this "choose to interpret" is what we all do with suttas I think, unless we have help from commentaries, or read suttas with knowledge of Abhidhamma, which helps to prevent subjective interpretations. Techinically speaking, you're wrong here - it's pretty clear that "noble" means ariyan (ie at least sotapanna) but I think you know what you're doing. In another post today you lay out some personal theories, but add that you're having fun doing it, and I think having fun is important with Dhamma. ... 45652 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism dacostacharles Htoo Naing, I think I can vaguely remember hearing this before. Anyway, it is quit logical. There ... gotogo ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, 17 May, 2005 17:53 Subject: [dsg] Re: Ritual, Abhidhamma and Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > I think the Buddha criticized ritual because most (99.9%) of the rituals he saw (in ancient India) could do nothing to aid in the escape from samsara or end suffering. > > Rituals that instilled principles like humility and kindness the Buddha liked because he felt they ripened the mind for his Dharma. > > CharlesD ------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Charles, Thanks for your participation. Once there were people who had believed other religion. When they became Buddhists they were still encourage to do their usual things like giving food and offering things to their teachers of other religion. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45653 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta christine_fo... Hello Hasituppada, Matheesha, Howard, Tep, all, Still going through the suttas you have all suggested ... Is there any opinion about SN XII.48 (8) A Cosmologist: "At Saavatthi. Then a brahmin who was a cosmologist approached the Blessed One ... and said to him: "How is it, Master Gotama: does all exist?" "'All exists': this, brahmin, is the oldest cosmology." "Then, Master Gotama, does all not exist?" "'All does not exist': this, brahmin, is the second cosmology." "How is it, Master Gotama: is all a unity?" "'All is a unity': this, brahmin, is the third cosmology." "'Then, Master Gotama, is all a plurality?" "'All is a plurality;: this, brahmin, is the fourth cosmology. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathaagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle..." When this was said, that brahmin said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! ... from today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." Don't you think there would be a lot less confusion nowadays if, on one of these 'inscrutable' occasions, the Buddha had actually said: "This is how it IS ..... ... test it for yourselves" ... [and, if you think he did, show me, succinctly, where ...] I blame the brahmin and innumerable others like him :-) - who, just when they could have been saying "I don't get it ... it's not really clear ... well, how about this situation .... etc. etc." just reply as he did above, with a case of 'the magnificents' .... with (exasperated) metta, Chris 45654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:37pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta buddhistmedi... Hi Chris - Please don't give up on the study of extreme views. The reward will be great when we can get rid of all extreme views! All difficult things, so far as I know, don't have an easy solution. May I suggest that you go to the origin of message # 45648 and review all the provided references on extreme views. After that please tell me if you feel better? Thanks. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Hello Hasituppada, Matheesha, Howard, Tep, all, > (snipped) > I blame the brahmin and innumerable others like him :-) - who, just > when they could have been saying "I don't get it ... it's not really > clear ... well, how about this situation .... etc. etc." just reply > as he did above, with a case of 'the magnificents' .... > > with (exasperated) metta, > Chris 45655 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi James - I know you liked the remarks like that because they also were not diplomatic and rather blunt. But Sarah has surprised me by her unshakable self confidence with no aversion. Other moderators are not like her. I remember not so long ago that I had to leave the TripleGem because the newly appointed moderator there banded my message. Sarah and Jon can do the same to us, but they are not narrow-minded or power hungry. And I admire them for these qualities. Sincerely, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep and Sarah, > > You make some very astute remarks, in your posts to Sarah, which I > want to draw attention to: > > Post #45628 (snipped) > > Metta, > James 45656 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Chris - In a message dated 5/17/05 5:47:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Don't you think there would be a lot less confusion nowadays if, on one of these 'inscrutable' occasions, the Buddha had actually said: "This is how it IS ..... ... test it for yourselves" ========================= Probably the Buddha, with his divine eye, foresaw that had he been more explicit, future generations of followers wouldn't have the joy of online Dhamma disputations! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45657 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... lbidd2 Hi Howard, Larry: "In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on." ==================== Howard: "Are you absolutely sure of this, Larry? Speaking ordinary-speak for the moment, Larry, pleasantness also is a matter of convention. And what we call "red" is a matter of convention. Is it TWO, per se, that is a matter of convention, or is it what we CALL "two" that is the matter of convention?" L: I'm pretty sure that is the abhidhamma definition of reality, or close to it. I don't see how a feeling can be a matter of convention and the pleasant nature is just its flavour. Pleasant feeling isn't something different in France or China. But the word "two" is meaningless in those places. I suspect you are angling for total relativity but that position is based on an infinite regress, parts of parts of parts, ad infinitum. There is no impermanence without a reality that arises, ages, and ceases. Howard: "There is something VERY interesting about left and right. We all know which is which, and even without names we can distinguish them. I challenge you, however, to verbally define either one of them!!! It seems they have more of a physical reality than a conceptual, definitional one!!!" L: My dictionary says left is westward when facing north. Also the word "left" originally referred to the weak hand. Larry 45658 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 7:44:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Larry: "In other words, the definition of "two" depends on conventions (social agreements) rather than twoness, whereas pleasant feeling is a phenomenon of pleasant feeling-ness rather than something we agree on." ==================== Howard: "Are you absolutely sure of this, Larry? Speaking ordinary-speak for the moment, Larry, pleasantness also is a matter of convention. And what we call "red" is a matter of convention. Is it TWO, per se, that is a matter of convention, or is it what we CALL "two" that is the matter of convention?" L: I'm pretty sure that is the abhidhamma definition of reality, or close to it. I don't see how a feeling can be a matter of convention and the pleasant nature is just its flavour. Pleasant feeling isn't something different in France or China. But the word "two" is meaningless in those places. I suspect you are angling for total relativity but that position is based on an infinite regress, parts of parts of parts, ad infinitum. There is no impermanence without a reality that arises, ages, and ceases. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: What I'm angling for is the realization that there is not a complete unreality to twoness. In its way it is observed. There is a difference between one, two, and three, and these distinctions are not "unreal". ----------------------------------------------- Howard: "There is something VERY interesting about left and right. We all know which is which, and even without names we can distinguish them. I challenge you, however, to verbally define either one of them!!! It seems they have more of a physical reality than a conceptual, definitional one!!!" L: My dictionary says left is westward when facing north. Also the word "left" originally referred to the weak hand. ---------------------------------- Howard: I think your dictionary has it backwards. West is to the left when facing north. And for some folks, the weak hand is not the left. -------------------------------- Larry ========================= With both hands, left & right, extended in metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45659 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta lbidd2 Hi Christine, Re. SNXII,48 (8), there is quite a bit of commentarial material in B.Bodhi's trans., Wisdom edition. The views rejected by the Buddha are variants of eternalism and nihilism. The middle way is dependent arising. Larry 45660 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... lbidd2 Howard: "What I'm angling for is the realization that there is not a complete unreality to twoness. In its way it is observed. There is a difference between one, two, and three, and these distinctions are not "unreal"." Hi Howard, That is part of my position as outlined in the two recent posts to Rob M. regarding a proposal that we add another category: reality, concept, and "formation". I believe I made brief reference to this problem in the original reply on this thread. Larry 45661 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 5:54pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta philofillet H Christine I'm going back to your original post - I don't think I responded the first time. > Regarding Anatta ... (Still thinking Hasituppada :-)) > I am having difficulty locating the sutta that mentions that the > aggregates are not self, but that, in addition, there is nothing > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - that > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... And also - the > sutta that states that there is not a Greater Self - like an > omnipotent god or ground of all being. I would appreciate any help. Ph: Well, I'm sure you've already gone over this one, but doesn't the annata sutta say as much? "Because consciousness (etc) is nonself, consciousness leads to afflection, and it is not possible to have it of consciousness: "Let my consciousness be thus; let my consciousness not be thus." In that lordly imperative "Let my consciousness be thus" isn't there the feeling of an Omnipotent god that is looking over the khandas, commanding them to be this way or that, and isn't it rejected by the Buddha here." That's what this says to me. As for the cosmologists, and the middle view, the Buddha is often so paradoxical with us to keep us from being overconfident. I think of that great "crossing the flood" sutta (you know- when I stayed in place I sank but when I pressed forward I was swept away) which opens Samyutta Nikaya - surely that is placed where it is to estbalish right from the beginning of this Nikaya that we should learn to be comfortable with paradoxes and not expect clear-cut intellectual solutions. There will always be a lot of hunches, a lot of intuition, the need for a lot of patience - lifetimes of patience. Of course you've heard that before... Chris, do you mind if I ask why you are trying to sort this out now? Is it related to the Dhamma slump/loss of interest in Dhamma study that you have mentionned a couple of times in the past. I think at that time, I mentionned that your job, where you are in contact with people going through intense physical and emotional suffering day in day out myst make it harder for you to appreciate the true Dhamma, which says that these people are receiving the results of their khamma, and that solutions to their suffering will come ever so gradually. I wonder if your daily shifts at work are not equivalents in some sense to the Buddha's chariot ride, in which he saw the sick and the dead and was motivated to find an answer to their suffering. Maybe when you see the sick and the dead you are motivated to question the answer that the Buddah found. If this is the case, technically speaking (and not in the prejorative sense) there is citta with no root except moha. THere is ignorance of realities at that time. An this would be confirmed by your current lack of appreciating the constant reminders from Kh Sujin and toher friends that there is seeing now etc. But I think it's true that coming back to what is happening now - right now - is the only way to get through your slump. May I suggest that you hang out with the Khandasamyutta, or the Salayatanasamyutta, just soak up all the suttas that get at the ephemeral momentary nature of what is happening now through the six doors? Or, on the other hand, maybe exploring a religion that *does* allow for an atta. Have you ever read the Bhagavad Gita? It's so beautiful. Maybe it's time for you to explore a way of faith that does provide us with the comfort of an eternal soul? Or go with both for awhile. I remember reading that when Nina first met Kh Sujin, and was still a Catholic, Kh Sujin suggested that she carry on with both until she knew which was right, or words to that effect. Anyways, Christine, I hope you can find this sutta you're looking for. I've often thought that understanding Dhamma with the necessary patience would be harder for you because of the suffering you see day in day out at work. You're such a compassionate person. Hang in there. Metta, Phil 45662 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 7:53pm Subject: Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta philofillet Hi again Christine > there is nothing > > standing behind the aggregates that is self either ... you know - > that > > feeling that there is 'a watcher' or 'a knower' ... I remember listening to one of the recorded talks in which it was discussed whether there is a difference between "not self" and "no self." At one point - I'm pretty sure - you said it seemed to you that while the Buddha says seeing, for example is not self, and hearing is not self and this is not self and that is not self and so on and so on, it suggested to you that it was implying that at the end of this list there was something that *was* self - why didn't he come out and say "there is no self." Personally, I think it makes a difference if we use a hyphen. Seeing is not self is different from seeing is not-self. The former is about the lack of a self, the latter is about the chracteristic of dhammas that gradually is revealed as we understand seeing itself better through moments of mindfulness of it. This "not- self" is not nihilistic - it doesn't mean that there is no hope for progress. It is through this not-self that coonditions can work their way, and as we know conditions can be cultivated, there can be movement towards more and more wholesomeness - right now. As the Buddha said "wholesomeness can be cultivated - I wouldn't tell you it could be it it weren't true." (paraphrase of a sutta) So this not-self, this characteristic of dhammas, which cannot be understood or grasped intellectually but is only revelaed gradually as we understood realities now, is different, I think, from not self (the absence of an eternal self that can control cittas). The latter can make us feel funkish, hopeless. It is nothing but an absence. But the latter, this not-self is the very thing that makes conditionality possible, which makes fluidity possible, which makes change possible, which makes growth possible, which makes moevement towards wholesomeness possible. I like what Rob K said once - every moment can become "utterly perfective and instructive" (or was it "perfect and utterly instructive?") Metta, Phil 45663 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 8:10:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, That is part of my position as outlined in the two recent posts to Rob M. regarding a proposal that we add another category: reality, concept, and "formation". I believe I made brief reference to this problem in the original reply on this thread. Larry ========================== I don't think we should get all that involved with proliferating categories. The problem, as I see it is that, for one thing, there are varying and types of "reality", and for another and much more important thing, there is nothing whatsoever except for nibbana that is a stand-alone, self-existent reality. And so, in looking at the phenomena experienced by worldlings, any and all such phenomena, whether seen directly or through the good offices of our conceptual faculties, we should be less concerned with their "reality" as with their fragility, their impermanence, their inability to satisfy, and their utter lack of independent existence (or reality). With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45664 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is real ... upasaka_howard Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 5/17/05 10:57:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... meant to write: The problem, as I see it is that, for one thing, there are varying DEGREES and types of "reality", and for another and much more important thing, there is nothing whatsoever except for nibbana that is a stand-alone, self-existent reality. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45665 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:29pm Subject: Re: dana and sila philofillet Hi Nina Welcome back. Hope you and Lodewijk had a nice time in Belgium. > N: dana not only includes giving material things, also appreciation of other > people's good deeds, and 'extending merit'. The last one is letting others, > dead or alive, know of our kusala so that they also have kusala cittas. > Also keeping the precepts can be seen under the aspect of dana: you give > others the opportunity to live in peace, without trouble. > Also forgiving is a form of dana, you wish others to be free from harm. Ph: My understanding of the precepts has become so much clearer - it is in moments of abstaining from unwholesome deeds that we keep the precepts. And this is when there can be this form of dana - in the moment. Making a solemn vow not to kill when there is no opportunity to kill is not so meaningful. It is when there is a momentary opportunity to kill, to steal, to covet that there can be keeping of a precept. Otherwise it is just thinking about precepts. Which isn't bad, but it a different reality... I'm sure I mentionned this before, but I like what Thich Nhat Hahn said about these immaterial forms of dana - that our presence is one of the best gifts we can give. Really listening to the person, for example. I find that arising when I'm teaching and find myself slouching (we sit around small tables, conversation style) and thinking about something else - there is sometimes a returning to full presence, an arising of a kind of dana when I find myself tuning back in to the student, co-worker, Naomi etc... Still haven't come through on my intention to donate something to the Dhamma foundation, by the way. I am stingy in that sense, still. Even though I have enough money. Even though I have benefited so much... > Ph: I always keep in mind something I learned from Kh Sujin - if we > don't appreciate the importance of dana and sila, we won't be able > to develop panna. The thought of developing panna is so sexy that I > overlook sila and dana. > ------- > N: So this becomes clearer. Dana, sila and bhavana are closely connected. > But this is important: we have to learn that kusala citta and all those > sobhana cetasikas that assist kusala citta are only namas, citta and > cetasikas, arising because of the proper conditions. That is: good > friendship, accumulation of kusala in the past, wise attention. > Cittas are so fast, they have gone before you know it, and thus, how could > we direct them? Ph: We can't direct them but we can feel hopeful because of the Buddha's teaching that wholesomess is to be cultivated and can be cultivated. We just have to be patient, keep listening, keep reflecting without over-reaching for results. When I listen to the recorded talks I feel such respect (and affection, I must admit) for you and Sarah and Jon and others who have been listening to Kh Sujin for decades now, but are still so patient and modest in your expectations. (I assume - who knows what is going on in the other's citta stream? - maybe you're all secretly lusting after nibanna!) >> It is kusala to see akusala as a condiitoned nama. Ph: Yes, this is very important. I think there is a tendency to jerk away from akusala too quickly and get caught up in regret and worry, not realizing that that regret and worry are akusala too. Metta, Phil 45666 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 8:58pm Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhatrue Hi Tep, Tep: I know you liked the remarks like that because they also were not diplomatic and rather blunt. But Sarah has surprised me by her unshakable self confidence with no aversion. James: ;-)) Tep, you made those comments with in the past two days! LOL! You talk as if this was years ago and since then you have learned the error of your ways. Did you have a Road to Damascus moment five minutes ago? ;-) And Sarah has aversion. I have rattled her cage on a few occasions and she snapped back- always to apologize later, of course. Don't confuse being British with having no aversion. ;-) I rattle her cage on purpose of course- to break her out of it. Just think of the good kamma I would get if I got her to start meditating again! ;-)) Tep: the newly appointed moderator there banded my message. Sarah and Jon can do the same to us, but they are not narrow-minded or power hungry. And I admire them for these qualities. James: I wasn't commenting on how Sarah or Jon run the group; I was seconding your comments about Sarah's mode of communication. And what I was doing is perfectly within the Buddhadhamma. The Sangha, following instructions from the Buddha, would periodically meet and all of the members were supposed to point out any faults in the behavior or attitude of their fellow monks. The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. If you tell Sarah that this is what she is doing, and I tell Sarah that this is what she is doing, then Sarah isn't being `self confident', Sarah is being obstinate. The Buddha scolded obstinate monks. I welcome anyone, on-list or off, to comment to me on my behavior. That is the only way to learn. Phil wrote to me some months back and told me with evidence, logic and compassion that I was trying to hard to protect the dhamma. I agreed so with him so I have backed off on posting since then. I don't post nearly as often or nearly as fiercely. And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would hardly imagine what I was like before you joined! ;-). Anyway, I've said my peace. Metta, James 45667 From: "Philip" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:02pm Subject: Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results philofillet Hi Charles and all > My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat others. Ph: I think you mentionned before that your bacdground is in Mahayana - I remember you knew the Parmis as 6 rather than 10. So it could be a difference there. But unless I'm mistaken (someone correct me if I am, please) in Theravada, ariyan refers to someone who has reached at least the first stage of enlightenment, the sotappana. So we have a different interpretation on your part. Fair enough. > > Some thing else: even the meanings/teachings of Abhidhamma often suffers do to subjective interpretations. > > I think you are interpreting noble and ariyan to mean "at least sotapanna". And I do not remember them having any thing to do with sotapanna. Again, I think the suttas are quite explicit on this point. Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentary notes are, at least. I agree with you, yes, we who are new to Abhidhamma will make subjective interpretations to make everything fit togeher nicely. Sure. But still less room for this, because there is less conventional language, few narratives. > > Yes, it is true that sometimes all WE can hope for is a brief experience of liberation, but I don't think it is as far away as you think. Yes, you have to give up what needs to be given up and do what needs to be done, and it is very very tough -- not impossible unless you really don't want it. Ph: Maybe I am secretly hoping for liberation much sooner but am vesting my posts in words about patience - a kind of strategy of self lying back, pretending to be out of the picture. Who knows? Maybe you and others are just more honest about wanting liberation in this lifetime. I think we we say things are very very tough we are setting up a project for self. I think it's impossible to do things that are "tough" without self at the center of it. But as you said yesterday, in your viewpoint it is necessary to use a health self, a healthy ego to work towards eliminating self. As I said, I know what you mean because I thought so as well as recently as 6 months ago and - who knows? - may feel that way again someday. > > The no-self doctrine also exist in religions like Satanism, evolution, and extreme capitalism. In the Buddha's day there was also another group that believed in the no-self (the anilist). I don't think annata is nihilistic. I wrote something about that to Christine today. Anatta is what allows us the fluditiy to change, I think, to grow, to develop more wholesome tendencies. We are not stuck in self-created stories. There can be wholesome change at every moment because at every moment "we" are just rupa and nama rising and falling in a conditioned way. We are not stuck in being Phil or Charles with all the baggage, all the stories. I enjoy discussing these things with you, Charles. Metta, Phil 45668 From: "kenhowardau" 45669 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta kenhowardau HI Christine (and Howard), ----------- C: > Don't you think there would be a lot less confusion nowadays if, on one of these 'inscrutable' occasions, the Buddha had actually said: "This is how it IS ..... ... test it for yourselves" ----------- As you know, there are Abhidhamma-style suttas that say exactly 'this how it is' and there are also conventional-style suttas. Even the latter tell us exactly how it is, *provided* they are understood in the context of the former. In the Buddha's day, almost everyone would have known how to interpret the conventional-style discourses. Today, however, almost no one knows, and so we see the predicted decline in the sasana: we see people acting-out things that only panna (and the other Path cetasikas) can do. Just my opinion, of course. :-) Ken H PS: It seems Howard has sparked a resurgence in this thread: just while I was formulating my reply, everyone has got in ahead of me! Oh well, better late than never. PPS: And then my post got lost! I think the fault was at this end, in which case it's unlikely to show up twice, but my apologies if it does. KH 45670 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Looking for suttas about Anatta kenhowardau Oh dear, how embarrassment! :-) KH 45671 From: "Lisa" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 9:51pm Subject: Fiver Generations foamflowers Dear Dhammafriends, After spending a life time of stress and worry over what should or should not be done or said, trying to control rather than letting go... I truly enjoyed my family and did not wish to be or not to be when it started getting crazy...lol...even when sisters and daughter were stressing over children who wouldn't stop their chatter and crying or coming and going, cleaning, cooking, soothing bumbs and bruises, kisses and hugs, cooking and cleaning and remembering to be mindful of all this coming and going again, and again, and again. We all stayed together at my Sister's house and it was a tight fit! Sean, 8 months, is my first Grandchild and he really liked me, we spent most of our time hanging out with each other. Sean really likes balls and water bottles, he is an easy baby to please. It was very nice to have a baby (Grandson) take to liking me so quickly. I could give his Mom a break so she could rest and spend some quiet time with the family and herself. I will be back with some interesting stories on letting go, crying babies, stressing Sisters, Daughters, and the Husbands and a boyfriend who laughed through it all rolling their eyes when ever Moms or Grandmas ran by chasing kids or kids chasing their Mom's and or Grandma's. I will try and tell the stories with Abhidhamma words too. With Metta, Lisa 45673 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi James, I can 'hear' you... OK, I'll get back to you on nibbana and bodhipakkhiya dhammas soonish.... --- buddhatrue wrote: >And Sarah has aversion. I have rattled her cage on > a few occasions and she snapped back- always to apologize later, of > course. Don't confuse being British with having no aversion. ;-) I > rattle her cage on purpose of course- to break her out of it. Just > think of the good kamma I would get if I got her to start meditating > again! ;-)) ... snap, snap!! Sarah > And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would > hardly imagine what I was like before you joined! ;-). Anyway, I've > said my peace. ... True, ... and here's to peace too;-). =============== 45674 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:24pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 197 - Enthusiasm/piiti (o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] At the first stage of rúpa-jhåna all five jhåna-factors arise with the jhånacitta. At each of the higher stages of jhåna the jhånacitta becomes more refined and more tranquil, and the jhåna-factors are successively abandoned. At the second stage (of the five-fold system) vitakka is abandoned and at the third stage vicåra. At that stage there are three jhåna-factors remaining: píti, happy feeling (sukha) and concentration (samådhi). At the fourth stage píti has been abandoned but happy feeling still arises. In the case of the kåmåvacara cittas, píti arises whenever there is pleasant feeling, but this is not so in the case of the jhåna-citta of the fourth stage of jhåna. The jhånacitta without píti is more tranquil, more refined. The kind of píti which has been abandoned at this stage is the “pervading happiness” which is of the highest intensity. The person who has experienced this kind of píti and is able to forego it is worthy of praise as stated by the Atthasåliní (I, Part V, Chapters 111, 175). At the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna (the fourth of the four-fold system and the fifth of the five-fold system) the jhåna-factor of sukha has been abandoned and píti does not arise either at this stage. As regards arúpåvacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rúpåvacara cittas of the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna, and thus they are not accompanied by píti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by píti, this depends on different conditions (1). *** 1) See Atthasåliní II, Part VIII, Chapter I, 228, and Vis. XXI, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by píti, see Appendix 5. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45675 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 17, 2005 11:33pm Subject: Re: pariyatti, by Sukin, continued. kenhowardau Hi Nina (and Sarah and Sukin), Welcome back. I enjoyed this post very much. And I enjoyed the original by Sukin, of course. ------------------------ N: > When Sarah asked what the characteristic of visible object is Khun Sujin gave a very meaningful answer which is well worth considering: ------------------------ That made me interested to read the answer, although I assumed it would be something I already knew: ------------------------------------------- N: > "A reality. Can anybody do something about it at this moment?" -------------------------------------------- That made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. :-) Thank you, Nina, Sarah and Sukin, for retelling some of your discussions with Khun Sujin. For me, it's the next best thing to being there. Ken H 45676 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:07am Subject: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! sarahprocter... Hi Htoo, Thx for your feedback so far and for dividing the comments into separate threads which is v.helpful. I hope you don’t mind if I get this second installment out first. Please feel free to chop and re-format etc as you see fit. Contd #44125 – the 4 kinds of death or ‘catu maranuppati’. V.interesting topic and good post. I was unclear on aayukkayena, kammakkhayena etc, so checked CMA p220 ‘Guide’. Many interesting details and it also mentions the same analogy: “An oil lamp, for example, may be extinguished due to the exhaustion of the wick, the exhaustion of the oil, the simultaneous exhaustion of both, or some extraneous cause, like a gust of wind.” The Guide adds some extra details and I don’t know where they come from. For example, it mentions in regard to the first kind, aayukkayena, expiration of the life-span, that this refers to realms where life-span has a definite limit or in human realm where death in old age is due to natural causes. Then it says: “If the productive kamma is still not exhausted when death takes place through reaching the maximum age, the kammic force can generate another rebirth on the same plane or on some higher plane, as in the case of the devas.” Hmmm . In the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha it just mentions ‘death as a result of the final exhaustion of the life-span as defined for a particular destiny, although the power of kamma still exists, is death due to exhaustion of life-span.” More to investigate here.....maybe Dispeller, for anyone Sleepless in Seattle - Connie or Mike?? #45387- 4 akusala vaci kamma of telling lies etc. It’s stressed in the texts that these can be through speech or the body-door, eg by a gesture or the keyboard! You say that divisive speech ‘may also be musaavaada’, ‘harsh speech is usually untrue words’ and unfruitful speech ‘is also related to musaavaada kamma’. I’m not sure. For example, harsh speech (pharusa vaacaa) has these 3 constituent factors only, accord to Atth.: a) another to be abused, b) angry thought, c) the abuse. It also says “By ‘harsh speech’ is meant the entirely harsh volition which produces a bodily and vocal effort, stabbing another as with a mortal wond.” It then gives the good examples of how a teacher may appear to speak harshly (‘these shameless, reckless lads..Turn them out!’) but with a gentle heart, while a murderer might appear to speak gently (‘let him sleep in comfort’) but because the thoughts are harsh, the words are harsh. Anyway, my point was that I think that if there are any lies, it comes under musaavaada. #45413 – you say ‘whether there are silent or not akusala always has a mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst.” It’s true that mind-door cittas are always involved, but when we refer to kamma-patha such as killing, it is by way of kaaya or vaci kamma, surely? Humans, insects etc – see U.P. ‘killing’. It always come back to the cetana..usually more effort and greater intention to kill for a large animal or human...there may also be much planning and thinking about it afterwards. (Killing with wrong view worse than without, Phil.) #45415 – another post on Metta, so I may as well respond here. We can read in the Vism, 1X, 8 onwards about the meaning of ‘May I be happy...etc’. it explains that: “ ‘just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings too’, making himself the example, then desire for other beings’ welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One’s saying: ‘I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another’ (Si,75; Ud 47).” ... In other words, the metta is developed to other beings, prompted by the reflection that they all wish to be happy and healthy, just like we do. What we think of as metta to ourselves is pure attachment, as I see it. #45531 – good post, I just question the use of ‘chooses’ as in ‘if citta chooses category 1 of pasaada rupa...etc’. Citta experiences its object according to conditions, no chance or way to ‘choose’:). #45536 – you say ‘the only thing different is that vipassanaa or satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations.’ At other times, I think you say that meditation is a translation of bhavana. Of course, vipassana is bhavana (meditation). You go on to say here that many who developed samatha ‘never learned anatta, which is the end-product-concept of satipatthaana.’ Are you sure that you mean anatta is a concept? Also in this post you say that ‘vipassana is based on any of these 40 kammatthaanas or based on naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma...’ Pls clarify. #45572 – you say ‘bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala kamma......’ What does this mean? Does it mean no development at all of samatha or satipatthana is possible until all akusala is eradicated or all akusala kamma patha even? You continue to say ‘he or she will have to keep basic precepts observed all the time. He or she has to abandon bad mind of any form’. Yet we know that only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and only an arahant has ‘abandoned bad mind of any form’ surely? #? – ok, walking is creeping/butting in here.... You said in a post to Jon that ‘there is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The Buddha.’ Could you say this a little louder?:). Then you write ‘The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events through out the day and night and as long as conscious.’ So what are ‘events’ again that should be clearly understood with sati-sampajanna (awareness and clear comprehension)? #44297 – ‘Meditate, Ananda, meditate’. You ask about the meaning and whether it refers to ‘go to a forest, go to the foot of a tree....’. According to the comy, meditate here refers to ‘develop samatha and vipassana’. Did Ananda spend all his time at the foot of a tree? Why not if this was the best way to become an arahant? Metta, Sarah ======= 45677 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:23am Subject: Metta - Phil & Betty sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Betty, I checked with AlanW who runs the Zolag website about your enquiries. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ 1. "All books [S:i.e.'Cetasikas', 'Metta' etc] can be bought from www.wisdom-books.com the address is listed under my Order menu." 2. "Metta has mysteriously vanished it looks as if it has been overwritten by Deeds of Merit. I will have a search for the original." 3."The original typsetting of Taking Refuge in Buddhism is on the website." (Betty, this was the book you enquired about when we last saw you). Metta, Sarah ========== 45678 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Musings8 - Clinging to Self, Clinging to Results sarahprocter... Hi CharlesD (& Phil) --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > Hi Philip and all, > > My interpretation of both noble and ariyan comes from my early training > in Buddhism. I was actually taught to interpret them as moral people. I > don't remember the sutta references but the interpretation comes from > suttras, in which the Buddha basically changed the definitions of the > words. The Hindus had another definition for these words, they related > to caste, birth right. The Buddha argued that people become nobles and > ariyans not by birth nor sacrifices to the Gods, but by how they treat > others. ... S: Butting back into this thread I see I once started:) Charles, you may be thinking of 'brahman' rather than 'ariyan' as in Dhammapada 386 (Narada transl): "He who is meditative*, stainless and secluded, he who has done his duty and is free from corruptions, he who has attained the Highest Goal, - him I call a braahma.na." *-'he who practises concentrations (samatha) and insight (vipassanaa).' Hope this helps. Good to read all your threads, Charles. Metta, Sarah p.s Grateful when you make it clear exactly whom your post is addressed to as you usually (but not always!!) do. ===================================== 45679 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Papanca and self-view sarahprocter... Hi AndrewT, A quick note before another 'Andrew deadline':) I think others like Htoo have answered all yr qus. --- Andrew wrote: > Hello all > > Another query! (-: Ven. Thanissaro describes papanca as "the tendency > of the mind to proliferate issues from the sense of 'self'..." [ATI > note to Sakkapanha Sutta]. > A sotapanna, by definition, has no more 'personality belief'. But a > sotapanna still has papanca. Right? > How do we reconcile this? ... S: As Htoo said, papanca can be with or without wrong view.In context, however, I'm speculating that it may be this particular kind of papanca being referred to. Sakka originally was asking about the causes of the bonds of envy and stinginess (issa-macchariya)leading to hostility, violence and cruelty. These are eradicated by sotapatti magga when wrong view of self is eradicated. The wrong view that leads to them, we read results from papa~nca-sa~n~na-sankhaa. Happiness (somanassa) of 2 kinds, sorrow etc - as object of kusala or akusala, i.e to be known or not known, leading to kusala or akusala states. Vitakka, vicara -- I think as others (Matheesha?) pointed out, this is referrring to a) ordinary consciousness and 1st jhana and b) 2nd jhana up. (I don't have any comy notes and haven't checked TB's...so just my ideas). Lots of good messages under 'thinking' in U.P. (inc a couple from MattR:)), also under 'vitakka'. As Htoo and others pointed out, apart from certain jhanas, vitakka and vicara arise with all sobhana cittas, inc all cittas with panna. Better not to confuse these cetasikas with what we conventionally refer to as thinking. So, no it doesn't make sense to suggest that with the growth of panna, there is less vitakka-vicara, but less thinking or proliferation about what is experienced through the sense doors, yes. Not sure I'm adding anything, but wish you all a cheery, chocolate-less Cooran get-together....:) Look f/w to the reports. metta, Sarah ======== 45680 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma sukinderpal Hi Ken H, Thanks for the support. As you may know, more than 90% of my dhamma input these past few years has been DSG and K. Sujin. All reference to the Tipitaka is through these two sources. So I don't want to be giving the wrong impression that I am well informed about what is actually written in the texts. My present understanding of the Buddha teachings is from reading/hearing what K. Sujin, Nina, Sarah, Jon, Robert, you, Kom, and some others have said and seeing how this makes most sense when observing my own experiences. We have all had a different understanding of the Buddha's words and many of us have also meditated. However what used to make sense, no more does. This question about Dhamma and the way it should be presented is I think, very interesting. There is no control over how someone will `teach' dhamma, but the way they do, does reflect to a good extent where their priorities lie, and this in turn shows the level of understanding/misunderstanding. In the end I think we have to leave it to accumulations and any panna to steer us away from the wrong path, again and again, having had the good kamma to come across the wise friend who shows us the way. Up until just a few days ago, I was entertaining the thought that it might be easier to convince certain non-Buddhists of the correct interpretation of the Buddha's teachings than it would Buddhists who have already made up their minds about it. But today, I don't think this, because wrong view is *deep*. Real panna arises so rarely, the rest of the time it is the very influential lobha and ditthi. Logic and reasoning is a useful tool for those of us who agree, but for opposing views, it does not work most of the time. In fact, I doubt that you can reason anyone into Right View. Someone would be attracted to it only if there was the accumulated panna. But then one doesn't know what it takes to kindle any hidden potential. ;-) There are benefits to discussing, so in the end one continues doing it. ;-) Metta, Sukinder --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Matheesha, > > I hope you and Sukin do have a discussion. It is interesting that 45681 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 1:54am Subject: Re: pariyatti, by Sukin, continued. sukinderpal Dear Nina, Thank you for the encouragement and for adding your remarks. I don't think there can ever be enough discussions on pariyatti. Not only do we need to understand that pariyatti is a necessary precedent to patipatti, but also to be reminded constantly about what it *really* is. `Self' is forever seeking results and patience is called for when the Path is being treaded. We forget that the purpose of studying the Teachings is detachment, and instead end up `using' knowledge to wrongly practice, as in the general interpretation of the Satipatthana Sutta. This is one reason we need to be reminded about pariyatti again and again for else wrong patipatti will be conditioned to arise. And wrong understanding which conditions the kind of practice often says that it can do away with intellectual understanding :-/. I remember after my first Goenka retreat, I asked for the mailing address of the meditation instructor from one of the other staffs. I felt gratitude and wanted to send him a copy of the B. Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. But I was discouraged from doing that, though I finally got it and did send him a copy. Are these Buddhists or what? ;-) Metta, Sukinder --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Dear Sukin and all, > I read Sukin's post on pariyatti twice to Lodewijk on his request. > I shall quote some parts of it again, with remarks added. 45682 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (& Larry*) I have 3 of your posts in front of me which you've probably forgotten about by now. I know you never mind if my responses are slow and you weren't asking for more comments anyway:) --- upasaka@... wrote: > Here is my personal, non-Abhidhamma hypothesis: Many phenomena > "arise in > conciousness" at the same time, including various rupas (an entire > kalapa > thereof) and numerous cetasikas. ... S: Can we say 'many phenomena "are experienced by consciousness", including various rupas....' .... >Quite shortly after experiencing > hardness, for > example, there is the recalling that other rupas and a variety of > cetasikas, > including pleasant feeling for example, were present as well. Such > veridical > recollecting could not take place unless the prior experiences actually > occurred. > But there are levels of intensity to experiential presence of phenomena, > and > at any moment all but one phenomenon occur subliminally as regards > awareness > of them, and only the one that is not subliminal registers at the level > of > "object". It is like a choir of people on a stage. They are all there, > but only > one is soloist. Which particular phenomenon occurs strongly enough to > register > as object is multiply conditioned, largely by kamma, and even with > regard to > actual objects, not all of them are strong enough to clearly "register". ... S: I like the analogy of the choir and soloist with only one 'particular phenomenon' occurring strongly enough 'to register' depending on kamma and other conditions. Citta only ever experiences one object and awareness can only ever be aware of one object. However, I think we can begin to understand (at least in theory)how all rupas must be supported by other rupas when they arise, just as the Buddha taught. For example, the 'colour' of hair cannot arise without pathavi (hardness), tejo (temperature) etc. Likewise the sound of thunder or any other rupas must arise in groups. But at any time, as you say, only one 'stands out' or is directly experienced. *Larry, as I see it, just as a khandha is nothing other than the various rupas or vedanas etc, so a kalapa is nothing other than the various rupas. It's a concept used to describe realities, just as visible object is as concept used to describe a single reality. Shape is a concept about a concept, so it's not a khandha or kalapa or dhamma with sabhava. Motion is a concept about a reality (vayo), depending on how we use the term. A chariot or computer is a concept about a concept. There is no chariot or computer and they are neither conditioned or impermanent on anything other than a conceptual level. As you say, we cannot see a computer. What is seen is visible object (rupa khandha). What is heard, touched....etc are also rupa khandha. We end up with the conventions of 'a being', 'a computer', 'a chariot' because of thinking only. Howard, I know we're on the same page with computers and chariots. Back to thinking and planning (#45322), of course they are necessary. How else would you have got to Disneyland with your family?? Thinking and planning will occur with or without any development of satipatthana. It would be quite wrong to think it should stop. As for planning the development of satipatthana itself, I think it's like the examples of the chicks hatching -- if the conditions are right, they'll hatch, regardless of the wishing or not wishing. On our last visit to Bkk, we discussed more about the asymetry between vedana and sanna as you put it....and the great importance we give to feelings in a day and then all the recollections about what has been experienced through the senses. I did have another good quote but can't find it now. Maybe a Musing later as there's more to add...I appreciated your good points to raise as always. Some of the best discussions we've had in Bkk in recent years have been prompted by your pertinent questions and not being satisfied by our half-baked answers, Howard. I learn a lot from hearing different reflections on sutta passages or abhidhamma details here. Metta, Sarah ======== 45683 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma. sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, --- matheesha wrote: > M: Mmm.. would you mind telling us about these experiences? We might > all learn something from it. ... S: Whatever experiences we've had, are having or will have are only those of the 6 worlds appearing. We think we have so many special experiences, but even for the ariyans, there are merely the worlds of visible objects, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, mind door objects appearing. Nothing special at all. I think, with respect, we can only learn from understanding the present world appearing. ... <...> > M: In a sense the whole path is about letting go. Sila - letting go > of unwholesome actions. Samadhi- letting go of 5 > hindrences/defilements and other agitations of the mind. Panna- > understanding the true nature of existence -which leads to letting > go of all conditioned phenomena. ... S: Thanks for your other comments on nekkhama and theseones. So to understand the 'true nature of existence', I think we have to understand the six worlds more and more clearly first. ... > > But the fetters tie us to phenomena. Even though a sothapanna > experiences nibbana momentarily his 'mind' is 'brought back' to the > sensory (kama/rupa/arupa) world because of the fetters. Jhana gives > stregnth to the mind to pull against the fetters and reexperience > phala citta again. > > Jhana is a very powerful thing. It would be difficult to act against > the fetters with a mind without strong samadhi. > > :) sorry if all this is a bit 'rich'. I might be delusional for all > you know! Not claiming anything. I might be wrong, but I feel > comfortable right now with my understanding and it has withstood the > test of time. ... S: That's fine. I'm glad to understand the way you see things better. .... > M: I know little about zen practice. Mostly from the lady who does > the zen class after I attend to mine. They dont believe in talking > about the dhamma -just experiencing. Cuts out the vitakka, vicara. ... S: I don't think this is possible or the right way. I think there also has to be a certain amount of talking first:). .... > They just use bare awareness, with their eyes open and attend to > phenomena. When my mind is quiet after practice, I find this > attractive. ... S: I think this is fine, but do they know what 'phenomena' are? Is there any understanding of phenomena as khandhas or dhatus (elements)? ... > > > p.s I'm not doing it now, but I try to remember to compose any long > > messages off-line in a word doc in case they get lost like yours > did. > > M: I usually do ... thanks im on call today. So this is giving me a > nice break. ... S: I recommend it to others, but as often as not don't do it myself, like now:-/ Are you a medic? Thanks for your reasoned and reasonable comments. Metta, Sarah ======= 45684 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 17, 2005 10:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 5/18/05 5:00:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: As for planning the development of satipatthana itself, I think it's like the examples of the chicks hatching -- if the conditions are right, they'll hatch, regardless of the wishing or not wishing. ==================== Wishing for insight will not produce insight, but there is cultivation of the mind, it involves many volitional activities, and just like the Mama Chick sitting on her eggs, without the cultivation, wishes will come to naught. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45685 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:1. characteristic> 2. function> 3. manifestation> 4.proximate ca... sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Wishing for insight will not produce insight, but there is > cultivation of > the mind, it involves many volitional activities, and just like the Mama > > Chick sitting on her eggs, without the cultivation, wishes will come to > naught. ... S: :) Right, I agree with all this and like the way you've put the last part. 'Many volitional activities' is a little vague, but if it refers to 'many sankhara (khandha) dhammas', then it would be just fine. Time for a walk. Metta, Sarah ======= 45686 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] dana and sila, to Mike nilovg Hi Mike, op 18-05-2005 05:12 schreef mnease op mlnease@...: > This is very important and Nina, your response was inadequate I think (no > offense!). Daana and siila in the senses in which Charles means them are (I > THINK) pa.n.natti, not dhammas. Distinguishing between pa.n.natti and > dhammas is absolutely essential I think, maybe especially in this context. N: Good point Mike. Because of Yahoo trouble (just now past, I was awaiting help from on high, being in such a mess) I could not follow all messages and did not get Charles point. Sorry Charles! I just concentrated on Mike's mail about Kh. Sujin's book. Mike, what do you think yourselves about this point? Concepts is very complicated, but let us compare Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, (T.A. Ch 8, p. 319) There is what is made known: attha-paññatti, and what makes known: naama-pannñatti. attha-paññatti refers to a conventional truth, refers to collectivity, continuity, etc. naama-pannñatti: a designation. There are names that stand for what is real and also names that stand for what is not real. Or concepts of the non-existent based on the existent. Many variations are possible. All this is a rather theoretical approach. I think when it dawns on us what a reality is, a dhamma that has an unalterable characteristic, such as seeing, that is the same in France or China, then we can see that it is different from a name or a conventional idea. Seeing arises and falls away, but seeing is the same for everybody: it experiences visible object. I am not inclined to wonder and think much about the difference between concept and reality. It tends to be so theoretical, but that is my personal inclination. I would like to first understand about characteristics that can be directly experienced, without having to think about them, without having to name them. In this way we can find out the difference between ultimate reality and conventional reality. So, when I read the list of sobhana cetasikas in the Visuddhimagga, I remember that these are not mere names, but that they are real now, at this moment. Lobha is lobha, it cannot be changed into dosa. To come back to daana and siila: I am just paying attention to kusala citta. In what way can these notions help me to understand more about kusala. Ruupa-khandha: it is ruupa, but explained by way of khandha. It arises and falls, there is past, present and future. It can also be explained by way of dhaatu, element. It is devoid of self. Terms are used, but I would like to understand what these terms stand for. In what way can they help me to understand reality now. Nina. 45687 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:41am Subject: Feelings, sutta and abhidhamma. nilovg Hi Tep, 45631 From: "Tep Sastri" I think the message that I sent along with the SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi Sutta, is that this Buddha's discourse is simple and perfect for practitioners; there is no need for the bhikkhus (and real Buddhists) to know all the details about the Paramattha-dhamma principles... A danger inevitably results when one is too fascinated by the beautiful theories to neglect practicing according to the suttas (Buddha's discourses). Why did our Lord Buddha not talk about the micro Paramattha-dhamma in this SN XXXVI.1 or most other suttas? That was the message I sent. ----------- N: As we see, the sutta is very deep, it contains the four noble Truths and also the Dependent Origination. Three feelings. When feeling is not pleasant, it is painful or indifferent. There can be only one feeling at a time. I would not say it is either sutta or abhidhamma, because each sutta is full of abhidhamma, but people may not see it. I think, in the Buddha's time there were not such dilemmas: sutta or abhidhamma, people understood that the suttas were explanations of realities, the same realities as taught in the Abhidhamma. Moreover, a sutta does not stand alone, we have to read all suttas in order to have more understanding of the Buddha's message. We should not neglect the beginning of Kindred Sayings IV: If we neglect this, some people may think that the Buddha did not teach anattaa. And: the all has to be known. Is this not abhidhamma? In each sutta the Buddha taught abhidhamma, that is: ultimate reality and this is what we have to develop understanding of. How? there has to be correct understanding on the level of pariyatti, understanding of feeling, for example, appearing at this moment. Is it pleasant, painful or indifferent? As Sukin said, that is the seed for correct patipatti. --------- T: ... But such ability of seeing and knowing nama and rupa precisely is the consequence of samatha-vipassana bhavana everyday to develop awareness (sati-sampajanna), not to be gained by reading the books, writing about the Abhidhamma and discussing it everyday. This issue is the most difficult one to get across. -------------- N: Yes, a difficult issue. Important to solve this question. Do insist Tep, if you are not satisfied. We should realize that book reading is not enough. What we learn has to be applied. First of all we have to know the difference when there is one world at a time, that is, the experience of just one reality through one of the six doors, and when there is thinking of concepts, a collection of things, such as a person, a chariot. When I take a hot shower, I may think of hot water (a concept), or, there may be awareness of just heat as it appears through the bodysense, or the experience of heat. There is a difference here. At the same time we know that also sati is a reality, a cetasika, that cannot arise whenever we wish. I am glad about that, it reminds me of the truth of anattaa. How good that we cannot have things for the wishing! ------------ T: How do we get to know that clinging is a conditioned dhamma without an appropriate vipassana-nana? If the detailed Abhidhamma knowledge and devotion without meditation can get anyone to a magga-nana, then I don't have anymore argument: the case is closed! -------------- N: I agree, but I would like to see meditation as mental development that can occur at any given moment when there is the correct pariyatti. The seed for patipatti. ---------- T: I like the "some understanding of basic notions of Abhidhamma" and agree with it -- as I explained above-- but one should never be obsessed with and clinging to the micro knowledges , otherwise the danger is unavoidable. You are clearly an exception. ------------- N: It is just the word micro knowledges, shall we say: pariyatti? And, as Sukin said, detachment has to be kept in mind all the time. And patience. Not a lazy kind or passive kind of patience, but patience that is kusala, devoid of lobha and dosa. Patience can help us not to cling to a quick result of mental development. I agree, it is dangerous to cling to pariyatti, and also to patipatti. Do insist if you are not satisfied with this answer. Many people take this question very much to heart. Nina. 45688 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:47am Subject: no dosa for rupa-brahmas, Htoo. nilovg Dear Htoo, Htoo wrote: Rupa brahmas also do not have dosa. They do not have dosa through out their lifespan. Regarding lobha, they cleanse 'kaamacchanda'. But they cannot cleanse bhava tanha, which is lobha. ---------- N: Clinging to sense objects conditions dosa. When one does not obtain a pleasant sense object one clings to dosa is bound to arise. Through samatha up to the degree of jhana, sense desire is suppressed. When rupajhana citta produces rebirth in a rupa-brahma plane, there are no conditions for sense desire, nor for dosa. ---------- Htoo: There are 10 akusala cittas that brahmas can have. 2 dosa cittas are excluded as they never have dosa at all. 10 akusala cittas are 2 moha cittas and 8 lobha cittas. --------- N: They still have bhava-tanhaa, they may cling to jhaana and to the result of jhaana, to rebirth. But clinging to sense-objects does not arise for them, since it is suppressed. And thus no dosa either. When they are reborn in a sensuous plane, sense-desire and dosa arise again. The anaagaami has eradicated sense desire and also dosa, since dosa is conditioned by sense desire. Nina. 45689 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 4:47am Subject: daana and siila nilovg Hi Phil, Phil wrote: our presence is one of the best gifts we can give. Really listening to the person, for example. I find that arising when I'm teaching and find myself slouching (we sit around small tables, conversation style) and thinking about something else - there is sometimes a returning to full presence, an arising of a kind of dana when I find myself tuning back in to the student, co-worker, Naomi etc... --------- N: Yes, teaching, giving knowledge to someone else, even worldly knowledge, is a kind of giving. It is generosity. --------- Ph: Still haven't come through on my intention to donate something to the Dhamma foundation, -------- N: Don't worry. In what way we give depends on the occasion, on many conditions. And, as we discussed, there are many ways of generosity. --------- Ph: We can't direct them but we can feel hopeful because of the Buddha's teaching that wholesomess is to be cultivated and can be cultivated. We just have to be patient, keep listening, keep reflecting without over-reaching for results. -------- N: Reflecting and developing the paramis, all of them. Patience is one of the paramis. This reminds me, yes, the ten can also be classified as six, as B.B. says: how are they synthesized: giving, virtue, patience, energy, meditation and wisdom. It does not matter how they are classified. ------- .... who have been listening to Kh Sujin for decades now, but are still so patient and modest in your expectations. (I assume - who knows what is going on in the other's citta stream? - maybe you're all secretly lusting after nibanna!) ------- N: This reminds me of a message I quickly read this morning in the Internet: was it James? We do not speak enough about nibbana, and consider it sufficiently as the goal. I hope I did not misquote. A good point. James wants to shake us up! Rattling the cage. So long as we do not understand conditioned realities we cannot understand the unconditioned reality. We can only speculate about nibbaana. The Buddha spoke about it as the third noble Truth and the end of defilements. It is beneficial to know that there is a Path leading to it. So, we better tread on this Path. If we think all the time of nibbaana, we dwell on the future that has not come yet. If we pay no attention to what appears at this moment, the goal cannot be reached. And we also need all the paramis as a medicine on our journey. We are like sick people, we are too weak. It is good the Buddha gave us medicines. He is the perfect doctor. James, do insist if this answer does not satisfy you. Nina. 45690 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:36am Subject: Re: no dosa for rupa-brahmas, Htoo. htootintnaing Dear Nina, Here arise very very important issue. I have long been waiting for this opportunity. May I ask you some questions? Please do not answer straight away and take time to answer. My questions are 1.'Are jhaanas required to attain arahatta magga?' 2.'Are jhaanas required to attain anaagaami magga?' I will also reply your following message. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo wrote: > Rupa brahmas also do not have dosa. They do not have dosa through out > their lifespan. Regarding lobha, they cleanse 'kaamacchanda'. But > they > cannot cleanse bhava tanha, which is lobha. ---------- N: Clinging to sense objects conditions dosa. When one does not obtain a pleasant sense object one clings to dosa is bound to arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Thanks. This is clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: Through samatha up to the degree of jhana, sense desire is suppressed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo:It is sure that jhaana is devoid of sense desire. As there are still anusaya, it is said that sense desire is suppressed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: When rupajhana citta produces rebirth in a rupa-brahma plane, there are no conditions for sense desire, nor for dosa. ---------- Htoo: This is clear and thanks. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: There are 10 akusala cittas that brahmas can have. 2 dosa cittas are > excluded as they never have dosa at all. 10 akusala cittas are 2 moha > cittas and 8 lobha cittas. --------- N: They still have bhava-tanhaa, they may cling to jhaana and to the result of jhaana, to rebirth. But clinging to sense-objects does not arise for them, since it is suppressed. And thus no dosa either. ------------- Htoo: Thanks for your explanation. It is very clear. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina: When they are reborn in a sensuous plane, sense-desire and dosa arise again. The anaagaami has eradicated sense desire and also dosa, since dosa is conditioned by sense desire. Nina. --------------------- Htoo: The most important issue is here. May I re-ask my question above? Are jhaanas required to attain anaagaami magga? I ask this because 'anaagam do not have kaama raaga and dosa' and 'brahmas also do not have kaama raga and dosa even though they have not eradicated as in case of anagams'. So my deduction is that 'anagams must have jhaana before they attain anagami magga. My 2nd reason is that anagams are reborn in 5 of 7 4th jhaana rupa brahma bhuumis. So they must have 4th jhaana when they were just going to attain anagami magga. So after thorough research and consideration and consultation with anyone expert, could youm please answer these 2 following questions? 1. Is 4th jhaana require to attain arahatta magga? 2. Is 4th jhaana required to attain anagami magga? I will be looking forward to happily seeing your answers. My prospected responses from you will be 1. You answer yes to both 2. You answer yes to one and no to another 3. You answer yes to the other first and no to the other way round 4. You answer no to both 5. You answer 'do not know' 6. You answer 'by explanations with examples and evidences' 7. You avoid to answer 8. You forget to answer 9. You refer me to do research by myself 10.There is no response May you be free from suffering. With metta and deep respect, Htoo Naing 45691 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:39am Subject: Dhamma Thread (387) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When asubha kammatthaanas are going to be practised, one has to go to the place where dead bodies are available. There are different forms of dead body. So there are altogether 10 asubha kasina kammatthaanas. These 10 will not be discussed in detail as they have been discussed before and will be further re-discuss in the later part when kammatthaana portions are being approached. The reason for having 10 different objects is to fit the level, degree, form, depth of kaama raaga that thepro-practitioners have. Some like beautiful colour and some like figure. And some like fleshiness or fatness and some like form etc. Before approach to dead bodies, it is advisable to bring walking sticks or any sticks to prevent unnecessary fear not to arise. When the practitioner is a man he should not choose a dead body of a woman. When the practitioner is a woman, she should not take the object of dead body of a man. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45692 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:56am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi James - > I know you liked the remarks like that because they also were not > diplomatic and rather blunt. > But Sarah has surprised me by her unshakable self confidence with no > aversion. Other moderators are not like her. I remember not so long > ago that I had to leave the TripleGem because the newly appointed > moderator there banded my message. Sarah and Jon can do the > same to us, but they are not narrow-minded or power hungry. And I > admire them for these qualities. > Sincerely, > Tep -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, I have to learn this quality. According to you, I am one of 'other moderators who are not like Sarah'. :-)) With Metta, Htoo Naing 45693 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:03am Subject: Dhamma Thread (388) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, What the asubha kammatthaana practitioner first sees as the object of asubha kammatthaana is visual object in front of his or her eyes. But what he or she is developing is just name or pannatti. This initial object is 'dead body of so and so form'. This is initiation of asubha kammatthaana and this object is called parikamma nimitta as it is a preparatory sign of asubha kammatthaana. When the practitioner becomes able to recognise the whole picture in his or her mind and it appears exactly as if it is seen by the eyes, that new object in the mind is called uggaha nimitta or mental image. At a time, when mature, there arise another image and it is called counter image or patibhaaga nimitta. This sign is also a form that is similar to initial object and mental object that it is something like a form of a person. But that appears in the mind as patibhaaga nimitta is free of staining, tethering, bleeding, disintegration etc. When this appears, it is said that the practitioner is said to have the stage of upacaara samadhi or proximate concentration. As this new object, patibhaaga nimitta is free of ugly markers, it is strongly advisable that the practitioners do not have to practise on the dead body of opposite sex. Otherwise, at this stage of patibhaaga nimitta, the attraction may arise and then jhaana will be destroyed. When this new sign arises and there are 5 jhana factors of vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha and ekaggata there is no trace of hindrances of sensuous thinking, aversive thinking, sloth-torpored thinking, spreading-worrying thinking and suspicious thinking. This stage is upacaara samaadhi. When the mind suddenly absorbed into that object and there is complete stillness, then that stage is said to be appanaa samaadhi or appanaa jhaana or 1st ruupa jhaana. As the kammatthaana is asubha, this jhaana is said to be 1st jhaana arises from asubha kammatthaana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45694 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:11am Subject: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! htootintnaing Dear Sarah and all, Thanks for allowing chopping up. You wrote: #44125 – the 4 kinds of death or `catu maranuppati'. V.interesting topic and good post. I was unclear on aayukkayena, kammakkhayena etc, so checked CMA p220 `Guide'. Many interesting details and it also mentions the same analogy: "An oil lamp, --snip--like a gust of wind." The Guide adds some extra details and I don't know where they come from. For example, it mentions in regard to the first kind, aayukkayena, expiration of the life-span, that this refers to realms where life-span has a definite limit or in human realm where death in old age is due to natural causes. Then it says: "If the productive kamma is still not exhausted when death takes place through reaching the maximum age, the kammic force can generate another rebirth on the same plane or on some higher plane, as in the case of the devas." Hmmm . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Hmmm.. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: In the commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha it just mentions `death as a result of the final exhaustion of the life-span as defined for a particular destiny, although the power of kamma still exists, is death due to exhaustion of life-span." More to investigate here.....maybe Dispeller, for anyone Sleepless in Seattle - Connie or Mike?? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Any help from Connie? With respect, Htoo Naing 45695 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:19am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 1. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Old Sukin: So I think it is most important that we hear the Teachings from someone who *really* understands and who can become our `wise friend'. This friend I believe will not cater to our lobha but would rightly point out to its tendency to lead us the wrong way. Certainly we won't be lead to false hopes about achieving sotapatti in a matter of weeks or months or any `time' that we are happy to project into based on the sanna of this `self', :-/ would we? Is it after all realistic, is the path that simple? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The Buddha mentioned in mahasatipatthaana sutta that 'let alone 7 years, 6,5,4,3,2,1 year is sufficed. 'Let alone 1 year, 7 months, 6,5,4,3,2,1, half month is sufficed. These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? Old Sukin: Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Read above Paali. The Buddha's words say promising result in the future. You seem not believe in The Buddha teachings. Old Sukin: There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These are ideas. I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know whom you are referring to as moderna day Buddhists. But The Buddha said the implication that within a matter of 7 days if one follow what The Buddha instructed he will achieve the fruit of one alternatives of anagami magga or arahatta magga. Old Sukin: And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed and never the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Never practising leads to never real experience. Old Sukin: But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you expect the reaction to be? I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:22am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! (b) htootintnaing Dear Sarah and interested members, You wrote: #45387- 4 akusala vaci kamma of telling lies etc. It's stressed in the texts that these can be through speech or the body-door, eg by a gesture or the keyboard! You say that divisive speech `may also be musaavaada',`harsh speech is usually untrue words' and unfruitful speech `is also related to musaavaada kamma'. I'm not sure. For example, harsh speech (pharusa vaacaa) has these 3 constituent factors only, accord to Atth.: a)another to be abused, b) angry thought, c) the abuse. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I said 'usually untrue words'. When kamma are summerised they come under musaavaada. When they are spread out there are 4 vaci- kamma. Example harsh word or rude word is very very frequently used by 'actors of western films'. I would not write the word here. Sometimes directness conveys the necessary meaning but sometimes directness hurts some certain person who do not have kind heart. When that word appears, is it true or not? Not true. Then this is musaavaada as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: It also says "By `harsh speech' is meant the entirely harsh volition which produces a bodily and vocal effort, stabbing another as with a mortal wond." It then gives the good examples of how a teacher may appear to speak harshly (`these shameless, reckless lads..Turn them out!') but with a gentle heart, while a murderer might appear to speak gently (`let him sleep in comfort') but because the thoughts are harsh, the words are harsh. Anyway, my point was that I think that if there are any lies, it comes under musaavaada. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is my consideration. But in summary all vaci-ducarita come under musaavaada. With respect, Htoo Naing 45697 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread (389) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 20 kammatthaanas or 20 objects of samatha meditation have been discussed in connection with 1st jhaana or 1st material absorption. These 20 objects are 10 kasina objects or 'wholeness' object and 10 asubha or 10 non-beautiful or 10 foul meditational objects. These 20 object when taken by the mind and developed properly, they can lead to 1st jhaana or 1st material absorptive state of mind. There are 2 more objects that can give rise to 1st jhaana or 1st material absorptive state through counter image or counter sign or patibhaaga nimitta. They are kaayagataasati or remembrance on 32 body parts meditation and aanaapaanasati or 'breathing meditation'. These 2 objects of meditation can give rise to 1st jhaana. Aanaapaanasati or breathing meditation can give rise to all 4 ruupa jhaanas or all 4 material absorptive states of mind. But as the current post is to discuss ruupa-kamma of 1st jhaana, other jhaanas will not still be discussed. Kaayagatasati is recollections of memory or remembrances on each and every parts of 32 body parts as described in kaayagataasati sutta. These 32 body parts or 32 kotthaasa can also be learnt in mahaasatipatthaana sutta of Diigha Nikaaya 22. It is true that there are more than 32 body parts. But meditation-wise body parts with the same character of foulness or disgustingness are grouped as one part of 32 body parts. Example is that there are more than 200 bones in a human being but they all are seen as bone and all these bones are just a part or 1 part of 32 body parts or 32 kotthaasa. First the initial object of kaayagatasati is a visual object. These 32 body parts are 1. hair (on head)) 2. body hairs 3. nails 4. teeth 5. skin 6. flesh 7. sinew 8. bone 9. marrow 10.kidneys 11. heart 12. liver 13. membranes 14. spleen 15. ligments 16. intestines 17. mesentry 18. gorge 19. feces 20. brain 21. bile 22. phlegm 23. pus 24. blood 25. sweat 26. solid fat 27. tear 28. liquid fat 29. saliva 30. mucus 31. synovial fluid 32. urine The first 20 are solid and latter 12 are liquid. Through repeated observation, there arise mental image that the copy of visual object can clearly be seen in the mind and that new object is called mental image or uggaha nimitta or a sign in the mind, which is a pannatti. When well calm and there are few hindrances, then another sign is just going to arise. As soon as hindrances are cleared away and the mind is clean then there arises a third sign called patibhaaga nimitta or counter image of the mental image. When there is no hindrances, the samaadhi in that state is called upacaara samadhi or proximate concentration. It is a harald state of mind before the actual absorptive state of mind called jhaana or appanaa samadhi. As there are no hindrances and as there are 5 jhaana factors are working efficiently, the mind is ready to absorb into the object patibhaaga nimitta or counter sign or counter image of the mental image , which again is an identical copy of real image. Once the mind is absorbed the only object is patibhaaga nimitta or counter image and no other objects can be taken as object at all. When the mind emerges from the absorptive state then it takes another object other than patibhaaga nimitta or the counter image of mental image. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45698 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:28am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! to #45413 htootintnaing Dear Sarah and interested members, You wrote: #45413 – you say `whether there are silent or not akusala always has a mental source. So mano-kamma is the worst." It's true that mind-door cittas are always involved, but when we refer to kamma-patha such as killing, it is by way of kaaya or vaci kamma, surely? Humans, insects etc – see U.P. `killing'. It always come back to the cetana..usually more effort and greater intention to kill for a large animal or human...there may also be much planning and thinking about it afterwards. (Killing with wrong view worse than without, Phil.) ---------------- Htoo: Killing with wrong view? Killing is mostly done by one of 2 dosa mula citta. Ditthi or wrong view normally does not invlove in killing until and unless the killing is also done with lobha. How will you say? With respect, Htoo Naing 45699 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:33am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! # 45415 htootintnaing Dear Sarah, Regarding metta, you wrote: #45415 – another post on Metta, so I may as well respond here. We can read in the Vism, 1X, 8 onwards about the meaning of `May I be happy...etc'. it explains that: " `just as I want to be happy and dread pain, as I want to live and not to die, so do other beings too', making himself the example, then desire for other beings' welfare and happiness arises in him. And this method is indicated by the Blessed One's saying: `I visited all quarters with my mind Nor found I any dearer than myself; Self is likewise to every other dear; Who loves himself will never harm another' (Si,75; Ud 47)." -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Just for a joke. When you and most DSG active members say 'no control' 'no control' 'no self' 'no self', why should The Buddha preach about 'Self'? I will be looking forward to hearing from you, Sukin, Robert K, Ken H,Nina, Ken O, and many others. With respect, Htoo Naing 45700 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:34am Subject: Dhamma Thread (390) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can be obtained through the practice of 26 samatha kammatthaana bhavanaa or 26 tranquility cultivational objects or tranquility meditational objects. These 26 objects are 1. 10 kasina objects or 'wholeness' objects 2. 10 asubha objects or 10 foul objects of dead body 3. 1 kaayagataasati object or 32 body parts object 4. 1 aanaapaanasati object or breath-object 5. 4 brahmavihara objects or pure-living objects(metta, karuna etc) ----- 26 objects of meditation or 26 kammatthaanas Among them 10 kasina and 10 asubha have been discussed. And kaayagatasati or meditation on 32 body parts has also been discussed in the previous post. Aanaapaanasati kammatthaana or breathing-meditational object is actually a universal meditational object for all 4 ruupa jhaanas and vipassana kammatthaana object. But unlike vipassana, which always take naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma as its object, aanaapaanasati as a samatha meditation does not take naama or ruupa as its object. Initially the meditator is concentrating on his or her breath and as it is so subtle it is hard to obtain a good concentration. At this stage the object is called parikamma nimitta or preparatory sign and it is just the object that can be sensed by everyone when he or she is breathing through the nose. When a good concentration is obtained, there is not much difficult to perceive all the events at breathing and the mind is well calm. There will not be any other thoughts except that breath or breath-sign. That new sign which appears in the mind is now no more the real object that arises at nose but it is the mental image to the initial object breath. When there are little hindrances or no hindrances there is ready for a third sign to arise in the mind. But it will be no more the mental iamge of the initial object. It changes into a different forms. It may well be like a piece of cloud, smoke, a heap of salt, a pile of sugar, dust, mist, or anything depending the individual's past experience. When this third sign appears in the mind, it is called patibhaaga nimitta or counter image of the mental image or counter sign of the mental mimage. As it is not a paramattha dhamma that 3rd sign does not arise or does not fall away. Instead it seems to persist all the time without interruption. It is stable. It is unshakable. It is not wavering. It is not quivering. It is not shattering. It exists as if it is a solid thing. When the object is stable the mind who takes that object is also stable and does not move. That mind is well calm. As soon as the mind is absorbed into that 3rd object or 3rd sign, there is an unshakable mental state called 1st jhaana or 1st material absorption. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45701 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:42am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 htootintnaing Dear Sarah, You wrote: #45536 – you say `the only thing different is that vipassanaa or satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations.' At other times, I think you say that meditation is a translation of bhavana. Of course, vipassana is bhavana (meditation). You go on to say here that many who developed samatha `never learned anatta, which is the end-product-concept of satipatthaana.' Are you sure that you mean anatta is a concept? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: Samatha that I wrote was of those who were out of The Buddha teachings. Pure samatha will never know anatta until and unless the samatha meditators are followers of The Buddha or His disciples or they are paccekabuddhas-to-be. Anatta? 1. anatta is not citta 2. anatta is not cetasika 3. anatta is not ruupa 4. anatta is not nibbana But 1. citta is anatta 2. cetasika is anatta 3. ruupa is anatta 4. nibbana is anatta So how do you think anatta is? With respect, Htoo Naing 45702 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (391) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can be obtained through the practice of 26 samatha kammatthaana bhavanaa or 26 tranquility cultivational objects or tranquility meditational objects. These 26 objects are 1. 10 kasina objects or 'wholeness' objects 2. 10 asubha objects or 10 foul objects of dead body 3. 1 kaayagataasati object or 32 body parts object 4. 1 aanaapaanasati object or breath-object 5. 4 brahmavihara objects or pure-living objects(metta, karuna etc) ----- 26 objects of meditation or 26 kammatthaanas Among them the first 22 objects have been explained in connection with 1st jhaana or 1st material absorptive state of the mind. There are 4 other objects left. They are brahmavihaara or pure-living. These 4 onjects are 1. metta brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with loving-kindness' or 'pure-living with universal-friendliness' 2. karuna brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with compassion' 3. muditaa brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with sympathetic-joy' 4. upekkhaa brahmavihaara or 'pure-living with equanimity'. These 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana or 'pure-living meditational objects' will be explained in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45703 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (392) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Pure-living meditational object' or brahmavihaara kammatthaana is also known as 'pure-practice meditational object' or brahmacariya kammatthaana. These meditational methods had long been practised even before our Buddha, The Buddha Gotama. These meditations are methods that lead to pure-living and they make non-attachment to kaama objects. Because of these practice and when 'one who has been practising' is just going to die and he has not released his pure-living practice he will be reborn in brahma bhumi or fine material realm. These pure-living meditational methods are 1. mettaa or loving-kindness or universal-friendliness 2. karunaa or compassion 3. muditaa or sympathetic-joy or loving-appreciation 4. upekkhaa or equanimity or universal-appreciation All these 4 meditational methods can give rise to 1st jhaana. But upekkha brahmavihara is normally not the top priority to practise for those who have not attain any jhaana yet. So, the first three brahmavihara or 3 pure-living meditational methods will be discussed first. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45704 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:52am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! #45536 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > You wrote: > > #45536 – you say `the only thing different is that vipassanaa > or > satipatthaana is totally different from any form of meditations.' > At > other > times, I think you say that meditation is a translation of bhavana. Of > course, vipassana is bhavana (meditation). You go on to say here that > many > who developed samatha `never learned anatta, which is the > end-product-concept of satipatthaana.' Are you sure that you mean > anatta > is a concept? --------------------------------- Extra piece in reply to #45536 Sarah wrote: Also in this post you say that `vipassana is based on any of these 40 kammatthaanas or based on naama dhamma or ruupa dhamma...' Pls clarify. -------------------------------------- Htoo: 'is' should have been 'can be' or 'may be'. 10 kasinas. While ongoing, one may see realities just before attain appana samadhi. He is coming to and going out of kasina object. And he may see his mind states that such mind is calm mind, such mind is distracted mind and so on. Even when he attains jhaana with kasina, he may see realities when he comes out of jhaana and while doing scrutinization on mind states. Others also apply the same. Even mahasatipatthana say 1. breathing contemplation 2. 32 body parts contemplation 3. 4 elements contemplation 4. foulness contemplation There are 21 sessions in mahasatipatthana sutta. Session of kaayanupassana alone invlove 14 sessions and among them are many meditations. With respect, Htoo Naing 45705 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 7:24am Subject: Re: Htoo's DTs - - Sarah's caught up! final part Whooo.. htootintnaing Dear Sarah, You wrote: #45572 – you say `bhaavana kusala kamma are higher than any other kamma. So before proceeding to these higher kamma, one has to abandon all akusala kamma......' What does this mean? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Do not do bad things like killing, stealing, telling lies, and misusing of senses. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: Does it mean no development at all of samatha or satipatthana is possible until all akusala is eradicated or all akusala kamma patha even? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) See above. The output of communication is that. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: You continue to say `he or she will have to keep basic precepts observed all the time. He or she has to abandon bad mind of any form'. Yet we know that only a sotapanna keeps the precepts perfectly and only an arahant has `abandoned bad mind of any form' surely? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: While 'perfect' means '100%' observing may or may not be 100%. Perfectness is the business of proficient one. Learners all have to observe till they do not need to learn any more as they will have perfected there after. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah: #? – ok, walking is creeping/butting in here.... You said in a post to Jon that `there is no mention of sitting meditation, walking meditation by The Buddha.' Could you say this a little louder?:). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: THERE IS NO MENTION OF SITTING MEDITATION, WALKING MEDITATION BY THE BUDDHA. :-)) Yes. The Buddha did not say 'sitting meditation' 'walking meditation'. The Buddha just preached how to do 'satipatthaana'. Among many methods, The Buddha did say that 'the typical bhikkhu sits by folding lower part of the body putting straight upper part of the body and put the mind straight forward' 'when going, he knows he goes'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: Then you write `The Buddha did preach to contemplate on all events through out the day and night and as long as conscious.' So what are `events' again that should be clearly understood with sati- sampajanna (awareness and clear comprehension)? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 1. first breathing is directed as primary object. Because this is quite evident to all breathing-beings. Breathing makes movement. Movements are part of vayo-photthabba-ruupa. Nose-hair may be shaking, sensation of movement of air may be noticed, sensation of tenseness in the chest or abdomen may well be noticed. Any movement is part of vayo-photthabba-rupa. As this ruupa is universal anyone can sense it. As all breathing-beings have breathing and this may help seeing realities, breathing is instructed to be known in detail. 2. one at any time is in a specific posture. No doubt. Would you deny this? The Buddha did not encourage the idea of postures. But the instructions are related to postures. Because seeing of these postures may help seeing of rupa and then naama. You are always always in a specific posture. And that posture is not static and it has to be changed to another one. All these changing processes have to be seen. 3. Apart from 4 major postures, there are many changing movements inside the body like stretching, bending, looking straight, looking elsewhere, holding something etc. The instructions are instruction and they are not to be analysed by paramattha dhamma. Through out these changing movement there are many ruupa happens. These are events. Events are occurrences that arise and fall away. These 1, 2, 3 invlove all the activities of daily life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah continued: #44297 – `Meditate, Ananda, meditate'. You ask about the meaning and whether it refers to `go to a forest, go to the foot of a tree....'. According to the comy, meditate here refers to `develop samatha and vipassana'. Did Ananda spend all his time at the foot of a tree? Why not if this was the best way to become an arahant? Metta, Sarah ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ananda in his final day of sotapanhood meditated a lot. He walked. He sat. He stood. And finally he lied down. The Buddha did not say 'this is the best way' 'this is the worst way' in mahasatipatthana sutta. But what The Buddha said in mahasatipatthana sutta is 'aranna gato vaa, rukkha mula gato vaa, sunnagaara gato vaa nissidati' aranna = forest, wood gato = having gone vaa = or rukkha = tree mula = root, rukkhamula_foot of tree sunnagaara = unoccupied place or building nissidat = sit With Metta, Htoo Naing 45706 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:10am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Sukin wrote: Dear Htoo, Htoo's old message: The Buddha mentioned in mahasatipatthaana sutta that 'let alone 7 years, 6,5,4,3,2,1 year is sufficed. 'Let alone 1 year, 7 months, 6,5,4,3,2,1, half month is sufficed. These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? Old Sukin: Without the good friend, it is likely that `methods' will be sought after which come with it a promise of result in the future. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Read above Paali. The Buddha's words say promising result in the > future. You seem not believe in The Buddha teachings. Not only does lobha jump at the first sign of such promises, but it > also spins out a series of reasonings to back it up, and this is the > work of wrong view. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo; > No. > If one cannot follow what The Buddha instructed he will be following > the wrong way. > Old Sukin: > There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to > understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, > hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can > be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any > clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: These are ideas. Old Sukin: > > I believe that anyone can be trained if convinced about the idea, > namely the willing modern day Buddhist, to study one of the many > meditation techniques, to see some results within a matter of days. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I do not know whom you are referring to as moderna day Buddhists. > > But The Buddha said the implication that within a matter of 7 days if > one follow what The Buddha instructed he will achieve the fruit of > one alternatives of anagami magga or arahatta magga. > Old Sukin: > And as we progress, because we are able to observe more minutely > these experiences, we think we are getting at nama and rupa or even > the tilakkhana. But no, it is only concepts that are being observed > and never the real thing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Never practising leads to never real experience. Old Sukin: > The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is > only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it > becomes hard to convince otherwise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Dittha dhamma are in sight. Old Sukin: > Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, > thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at > all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: But 'the bhikkhu pajaanaati'. Old Sukin: > But as you know, they take the concepts to be real. I believe the > experience of the meditator is no different from this, only he by the > power of concentration, has managed to observe them without being > otherwise led by the stories, not counting the story about the > practice itself ;-). And his knowledge of rise and fall allows him to > keep enough distance to watch these experiences more microscopically. > But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', > wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Experience and thinking are different. Old Sukin: > He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the > particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted > understanding of conditionality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? Old Sukin: > When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has > great chance of developing not only the understanding of the > characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of > paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose > delusion. Old Sukin: > Those of us who do not believe in purposeful observing, are often > accused of taking the easy road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I would say that 'all those who do not follow what The Buddha > taught but set out their own way of achieving insight without > satipatthaana' are all following 'the easy road'. Old Sukin: > I think most people are willing to go through any hardship if there > is promise of result in the future, be it the treasure hunter, the > man who sleeps on the bed of thorns or the meditator who willingly > bears the knee pain. Wrong view after all, *feels so right*. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not be > any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. > Old Sukin: > But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching > realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do you > expect the reaction to be? > I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is > what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the > kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of many > of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't > mind. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:12am Subject: Dhamma Thread (393) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 'Metta brahmavihaara' or 'loving-kindness pure-living' is a method of meditation and it can give rise to 1st rupa jhana or 1st material absorption. The typical 1st jhana cittas derived from metta brahmavihara take the object of pannatti. That pannatti is satta-pannatti or idea-of-being. Unlike other meditations that can give rise to 1st jhana, metta brahmavihara and other 2 that is karuna and mudita cannot give rise to patibhaaga nimitta. But the object of all brahmaviharas is just pannatti like all other meditations that can give rise to 1st jhana. Metta is non-attachment. Metta is loving-kindness. Metta is universal friendliness. Metta is universal and it can act on anyone if there are conditions. Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is talked as 'loving-kindness'. If metta is equated with 'love', then those who do not have enough understanding on metta may believe that 'love' between husband and wife is metta. This is not fully the case. Hasband and wife may develop metta to each other. But this pure metta may change into another 'love', which is lobha and strong attachment. And lobha or greediness is akusala or unwholesome thing. Metta is compared with 'the love of mother to her child'. This is especially true between newborn baby and its mother. From mother side there is no expectation from her baby when she treats anything to her baby. She will clean her baby's filth and any messy things that arisen from it. Still the mother is willing to do all things related to her baby. The baby may urinate directly to her face. Still the mother will smile and treat her baby as her most precious jewel. The baby kicks on her face. The mother smiles. The baby hit on her face. The mother smile. The mother will be very protective to her baby at all cost. Metta is really cool and it is more than that. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45708 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and interested members, Unanswered part of dialogue 2 is here. >Old Sukin: When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has great chance of developing not only the understanding of the characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of paccaya. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose delusion. Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (394) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many different ways of cultivating metta or loving- kindness. Metta sutta says all the details of effects of metta, how to develop metta, how to stay with metta and how to cover the whole world with metta. Metta brahmavihara or 'loving-kindness pure-living' is a kind of mental exertion. It is a mental work. It takes the object beings. As beings are all panatti the object of metta brahmavihara is also pannatti. The typical cittas of 1st jhana derived from metta brahmavihara are just cittas. They all have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base material. They all take the object beings as their object and it is pannatti. As metta is pure thing there have not be any impure things like lobha or attachment, dosa or aversion, moha or ignorance, ditthi or wrong- view, maana or conceit, issaa or jealousy, macchariya or stinginess, kukkucca or worry, ahirika or shamelessness, anottappa or fearlessness and uddhacca or upset. As metta is pure and it is a good mental exertion, it has not to be with sloth and torpor. And metta has to be free from any form of suspicion or doubt. Metta is so pure that as soon as impurity comes metta instantaneously disappears. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45710 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:31am Subject: Re: Feelings, sutta and abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - I am glad to see you back, active and strong. N: Three feelings. When feeling is not pleasant, it is painful or indifferent. There can be only one feeling at a time. T: One cannot let go of vedana if their drawbacks are not truly seen, e.g. they are impermanent and that there are some that are a bait (aamisa). ---------------------------- N: We should realize that book reading is not enough. What we learn has to be applied. First of all we have to know the difference when there is one world at a time, that is, the experience of just one reality through one of the six doors, and when there is thinking of concepts, a collection of things, such as a person, a chariot. ... ... I would not say it is either sutta or abhidhamma, because each sutta is full of abhidhamma, but people may not see it. I think, in the Buddha's time there were not such dilemmas: sutta or abhidhamma, people understood that the suttas were explanations of realities, the same realities as taught in the Abhidhamma. T: It is evident that your wisdom from years of the suttas and Abhidhamma studies has almost morphed the two into one. So nowadays when you're talking about the Abhidhamma, the basic concepts you use in fact come from the suttas (or the suttas commentaries written by Abhidhamm-oriented authors); and when you are talking about a sutta, the explanation of the Buddha's words is based on the Abhidhamma! But for those who are familiar with the pure Abhidhamma principles only, the two are like disconnected islands. ------------------------------- N: Patience can help us not to cling to a quick result of mental development. I agree, it is dangerous to cling to pariyatti, and also to patipatti. Do insist if you are not satisfied with this answer. Many people take this question very much to heart. T: I am satisfied with "this answer", Nina. Both patience and no-clinging (to pariyatti and/or patipatti) are unquestionably important. Respectfully, Tep ============== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, > > 45631 > From: "Tep Sastri" > > I think the message that I sent along with the SN XXXVI.1, Samadhi > Sutta, is that this Buddha's discourse is simple and perfect for > practitioners; there is no need for the bhikkhus (and real Buddhists) to > know all the details about the Paramattha-dhamma principles... > > A danger inevitably results when one is too fascinated by the beautiful > theories to neglect practicing according to the suttas (Buddha's > discourses). Why did our Lord Buddha not talk about the micro > Paramattha-dhamma in this SN XXXVI.1 or most other suttas? That was > the message I sent. > ----------- > N: As we see, the sutta is very deep, it contains the four noble Truths and > also the Dependent Origination. > Three feelings. When feeling is not pleasant, it is painful or indifferent. 45711 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:38am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > I have to learn this quality. According to you, I am one of 'other > moderators who are not like Sarah'. :-)) > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo - At the time of that incident were your eyes and ears "closed"? With Karuna, Tep ========= 45712 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:42am Subject: Dhamma Thread (395) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, May I be free from enemies. May you be free from enemies. May they be free from enemies. What a good mind it is! There are enemies. Some live inside of the body and some live outside of the body. Some are element of dhamma and some are formation of derivations of elements of dhamma. Who is the enemy that lives inside of ourselves? He is aversion or dosa or hatred. Dosa or aversion has a great power to destroy anything that it meets. Dosa destroys the home where it resides. As soon as dosa arises in us we start to suffer from painful experience. So may I be free from dosa. May you be free from enemies. May you be free from dosa, which will destroy you and your properties of physical and mental. So my wish is that 'you be free from dosa so that you are free from destruction'. May they be free from enemies. May they be free from dosa, which will definitely destroy the peace and tranquility and everything. So my wish is that they are free from dosa and they are free from the effect of dosa and so free from destruction. These are just references. When I am exerting by myself I would exert mentally that 'may I be free from enemies. May I be free from dosa. When there are other people with me when I am doing that mental job, I would say 'may we be free from enemies. May we be free from dosa'. When I say 'you' and 'may you be free from enemies. May you be free from dosa', this may mean 'only you' when there is only a single person reading this message. If there are more than one person reading this message at the same time, then this 'you' will also refer to 'all of you'. When I say 'may they be free from enemies. May they be free from dosa', this include all those who are not involve in this current communication mode of message reading. They in these wishes include all. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45713 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:18am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] buddhistmedi... Hi James - Thank you for your friendly message that also provided a good feedback for error correction. James: ;-)) Tep, you made those comments with in the past two days! LOL! You talk as if this was years ago and since then you have learned the error of your ways. Tep: So it seemed I might have been a little to quick to jump to the conclusion. Time will tell. James: The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. ... I welcome anyone, on-list or off, to comment to me on my behavior. That is the only way to learn. Tep: That is a good policy for peaceful co-existence as well. James: And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would hardly imagine what I was like before you joined! ;-). Tep: I am glad that my timimg was good. :->)) Karuna, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Tep, > >And what I was doing is perfectly within the Buddhadhamma. The Sangha, following instructions from the Buddha, would periodically meet and all of the members were supposed to point out any faults in the behavior or attitude of their fellow monks. The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. (snipped) > > Metta, > James 45714 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:52am Subject: Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] htootintnaing Dear James and Tep, While one signed up metta, another signed up with karuna, :-). Your dialogue is good to read especially regarding personal policy. Good practice James. Otherwise there will be little chance to learn. With Metta, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi James - > > Thank you for your friendly message that also provided a good > feedback for error correction. > > James: ;-)) Tep, you made those comments with in the past two days! > LOL! You talk as if this was years ago and since then you have learned > the error of your ways. > > Tep: So it seemed I might have been a little to quick to jump to the > conclusion. Time will tell. > > James: The offending monk was to be grateful for this criticism and to > make corrections to his behavior. ... I welcome anyone, on-list or off, to > comment to me on my behavior. That is the only way to learn. > > Tep: That is a good policy for peaceful co-existence as well. > > James: And Tep, if you think I am bad now, you would hardly imagine > what I was like before you joined! ;-). > > Tep: I am glad that my timimg was good. :->)) > > > Karuna, > > > Tep > > === > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > > >And what I was doing is perfectly within the Buddhadhamma. The > Sangha, following instructions from the Buddha, would periodically > meet and all of the members were supposed to point out any faults in > the behavior or attitude of their fellow monks. The offending monk was > to be grateful for this criticism and to make corrections to his behavior. > > > (snipped) > > > > Metta, > > James 45715 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 10:35am Subject: Re: Concepts vs. Real Objects -- It Is No Abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Hi CharleD {Attn: Howard, Sarah, James and Phil} - Your post (#45598) touched on a difficult issue related to Existence. Even Howard, a keen observer of abstract and profound theories, once told me that he wasn't knowledgeable in this area! So please allow me to be more philosophical than usual, and I only have more questions than answers to give. CharleD: And, yes, to be my usual difficult self, I have a theory. I call it the "Multi-dimensional Hypothesis of Existence." It basically states that existence occurs in layers spanning several dimensions (sphere or plane of existence), and each layer/dimension appears as existence in it-self though they effect each other. Tep: Sounds like a correlational self-theory of the universe. CharleD: Dimension "X" ... a strange space/emptiness (with) no-boundaries, (yet) there is activity/movement. Dimension "Alpha" ... something and nothing giving birth to each other. Dimension "1" ... elemental stuff that interact... the Plane of Elemental interactions. Dimension "Q" ... thoughts/mind streams .. the Plane of Mind. Dimension "T" ... people and things ... the Plane of Things. Tep: Where does Nibbana fit in ? Or does it transcend all dimensions? CharleD: From a Buddhist perspective, life in samsara exist in Dimension "T", Plane of Things. Liberation becomes transcending this plane and experiencing your existence in the others. Beyond the Dimension "Q" there can be no I, you, me, or it. However, when the elements of feelings come together in the Plane of Elemental interactions, the effects can be experienced in the Plane of Mind, and thus in the Plane of Things. Tep: By saying "liberation becomes transcending this plane and experiencing your existence in the others", you are not clear about what is liberated and what happens after that. So the specification that we may "experience" our "existence" elsewhere is vague at best. Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Hi Tep, .... > (snipped) > > I know this is a little off but I am having fun. > > CharlesD 45716 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: Feelings, sutta and abhidhamma. buddhistmedi... Dear Nina - Oh, I forgot to say one more thing in the last message (#45715). T:> How do we get to know that clinging is a conditioned dhamma >without an appropriate vipassana-nana? If the detailed Abhidhamma >knowledge and devotion without meditation can get anyone to a >magga-nana, then I don't have anymore argument: > the case is closed! -------------- N: I agree, but I would like to see meditation as mental development that can occur at any given moment when there is the correct pariyatti. The seed for patipatti. ---------- T: More importantly, to be too concerned with either pariyatti or patipatti is equally wrong. We must have both in order to arrive at pativedha Nowadays I have heard people claiming pativedha (e.g. achieving the present-moment satipatthana and right view without the patipatti as explained in the suttas). Those who try to caution them that patipatti is also important, are then accused of focusing too much on patipatti to forget pariyatti. Respectfully, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Tep, > > 45631 > From: "Tep Sastri" > 45717 From: nina Date: Wed May 18, 2005 0:16pm Subject: FW:Identity and language, on Pali list, by Ven. Dhammanando nilovg Dear friends, Ven. Dhammanando kindly gave permission to frwd his mail to dsg. It is a correspondance with Bhante Sujata. Nina. ---------- From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Fri May 13, 2005 0:52pm Subject: Re: Identity and language dhammanando_... Bhante, > This issue has been referred to in passing a few times on > this discussion, but I feel it is time to confront it more > directly. May I suggest that we try to develop a terminology > to talk about these events of the far past that is: > > 1. Neutral (i.e. non-emotive) > 2. Unambiguous > 3. Context-specific May I offer an alternative suggestion? -- That as this is a Pali list we simply follow the nomenclature used in Pali sources like the Kathaavatthu Atthakathaa, and the Va.msa texts. "Theravaadin" will then be used just as the Pali Buddhist tradition uses it: to denote the keepers of the flame of the Saddhamma through all the Indian and Sri Lankan sangaayanaas through to the establishment of the Mahaavihaara, through to the present-day living traditions of Sri Lanka and SE Asia. There will then be no need for concocting novelties like "Cuu.lasanghika" -- a name by which the Theravaada has never been known. This is not to deny that there are many other views of Indian sectarian Buddhist history from non-Pali non-Theravaadin sources, but those interested in these can always consult the surveys of Msgr. Lamotte, Nalinaksha Dutt, Hirakawa Akira etc. yaa mahaakassapaadiihi, mahaatherehi aadito kataa saddhamma sa.mgiiti, theriyaa'ti pavuccati eko'va theravaado so, aadivassasate ahu a~n~naacariyavaadaatu, tato ora.m ajaayisu.m That rehearsal of the Saddhamma arranged at the beginning by the great theras such as Mahaakassapa, is called the Theravaada, for the first hundred years it was undivided. But later arose other aacariyavaadas. tehi sa.mgiitikaarehi, therehi dutiyehi te niggahitaa paapabhikkhuu, sabbe dasasahassakaa aka.msaa'cariyavaada.m te, mahaasa.mgiitinaamakaa The evil monks, ten thousand in all, who were censured by the theras who held the Second Council, established the school of doctrine named the Mahaasa.mgiiti (Greater Recital or Assembly). tato gokulikaa jaataa, ekabbohaarikaapi ca From that arose the Gokulikas and the Ekabbohaarikas gokulikehi pa.n.natti-vaadaa baahulikaapi ca cetiyavaadaa tesveva, samataasa`nghikaa cha te From the Gokulikas arose the Pa.n.nattivaada and the Baahulikas; from these arose the Cetiyavaada. Thus there are six schools designated Mahaasanghika. punaapi theravaadehi, mahi.msaasakabhikkhavo vajjiiputtakabhikkhuu ca, duve jaataa ime khalu And then two more arose from among the followers of the Theravaada: the Mahi.msaasaka and the Vajjiputtaka bhikkhus. jaataa'tha dhammuttariyaa, bhadrayaanikabhikkhavo channaagaaraa sammitiyaa, vajjiiputtiyabhikkhuuti Then arose the Dhammuttariyaas, the Bhadrayaanika monks, the Channaagaarikas, the Sammitiyas, and the Vajjiiputtiya monks. mahi.msaasakabhikkhuuhi, bhikkhuu sabbattha vaadino dhammaguttiyabhikkhuu ca, jaataa khalu ime duve From the Mahi.msaasaka monks arose these two: the Sabbatthivaadins and the Dhammaguttiya monks. jaataa sabbatthivaadiihi, kassapiyaa tato pana jaataa sa`nkantikaa bhikkhuu, suttavaadaa tato pana From the Sabbatthivaadins arose the Kassapiyas, then from these arose the Sankantika monks, and from these the Suttavaadins. theravaadena saha te, honti dvaadasi'mepi ca pubbe vuttachavaadaa ca, iti a.t.thaarasaa khilaa These make twelve, together with the Theravaada; to these are added the six schools named before, thus making eighteen. sattarasaapi dutiye, jaataa vasassate iti a~n~naacariyavaadaa tu, tato oramajaayisu.m Thus in the second century arose seventeen schools, and the others arose afterwards. hemataa raajagiriyaa, tathaa siddhatthikaapi ca pubbaseliyabhikkhuu ca, tathaa aparaseliyaa The Hemavata and the Raajagiriyaa, and likewise the Siddhatthaka, the Pubbaseliya monks and the Aparaseliyas, vaajiriyaa cha etehi, jambudiipamhi bhinnakaa dhammaruci ca saagaliyaa, la.mkaadiipamhi bhinnakaa and the Vajiriyas: these six broke away in Jambudiipa. The Dhammaruci and the Saagaliyas broke away on the Island of Lankaa. aacariyakulavaadakathaa ni.t.thitaa Concluded is the the Story of the Aacariya Schools (Mahaava.msa V. 1-12) Best wishes, Dhammanando 45718 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:20pm Subject: Re: Might I also add lone_renunciant Tep wrote: > My Question > ------------------- > > What is the most important meditation experience you have had that > may be used to help people with good conceptual understandings to > grasp how "reality works"? I suppose it would be the applying of some concepts of the dharma I learned in a meditation manual to my practise. In the book, one was instructed to use meditate to 'fine-tune' one's own sensory apparatus. To do this, we would focus on an object of meditation, such as the breath, and be aware of any stimuli from the five sense doors or mind, as it really is. That means, when there is some stimuli, we take our mind off the breath for a few moments and experience that stimuli looking at it for the three characteristics that are common to all conditioned realities: their selflessness, dissatisfactoriness, and impermanence. This is observing the phenomenon with bare attention. You hear a dog, there is no conceptualizing 'dog' or any following mental story-line or emotions. Only patterns of matter and energy making an impression on your ear-sense. Practising like this, one can realize with direct vision that phenomenon are empty, are ever-changing, and in continuous flux. Personally, for me, this meant meditating on my back porch. I can remember the most vivid experience I had with this. While meditating, an animal came to the ground in front of the porch and looked at me, as I looked back at him. It was pure emptiness and bare phenomenon. He may have sensed some fear, I guess we sort of looked at what to make of each other for a moment, then it departed. That would be my most vivid experience in seeing reality as it is. One major point. The book said that these characteristics of reality are to be observed as they are, to be seen by themselves, so we do not have to take it on faith. Regards, A.L. 45719 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 2:31pm Subject: Re: Might I also add lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > Hi AndrewL, I'm not strong enough so I > need a place with agreeable objects to help in my practice. I would > say learning to be objective and really able to look or analyze > yourself is the key. Ultimately change all the faulty behaviors > that are not fitting of an ariya and we'll be one. > > - kel Hi, kel. Very astute post. Something to think about. We can see that the Vinaya is intended to help monks live a simple, contented life, to not be overwhelmed by, but only to observe, one's desire, fear, and aversion. Trying to do this in daily life is possible also. You may be right that if we align our actions with those of the noble ones, it could help us get there sooner. After all, wasn't the code of discipline intended to foster good progress on the path, keeping the sangha from going off track? Combine that with any fear you do have about being reborn in the lower realms, the level of which varies person to person, and maybe we have a 'better' vehicle to attain our goal. When I was first practising seriously, I would read talk.religion.buddhism on Usenet, and one suggestion that really struck me was a suggestion to only use the computer a half hour a day. This was when I was doing breathing and delivering wind, and therefore vitality, to the stomach and limbs, and having my initial experiences encountering the texts. Perhaps we can all aspire to observe some of the rules of the Vinaya, and keep our practise in mind, not wandering from one thing to another, and feel stronger about ourselves and our practise. Regards, A.L. 45720 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 3:06pm Subject: Re: Might I also add - w/ a question for Sarah lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Hi, Ken > Hi Andrew L, > > All of us, nearly all the time, think, speak and act without regard > for the Dhamma. That is because we are worldlings, and that is what > worldlings do. (See the Mulapariyaya Sutta.) You only go on to imply that when we do act with the Dhamma in mind, positive results may ensue. I'm afraid I've gotten myself so concerned about "getting" the Dhamma to me, that I am not living with regard to it, in other words, its contents don't have the influence on my life that I should. As the Buddha would term it, I do not have a life 'in tune' with the Dhamma. Now you mention discipline. As you may or may not know, I have had a number of pyschiatric hospitalizations since I began my practise about two years ago. Just yesterday, after all that's happened, my discipline appeared to me. Now this all happened as I was playing a flash game, after talking to someone on AOL instant messenger. Suddenly my whole screen and keyboard seemed to be with the fact that I 'have' discipline. Reminders of years ago when I was disciplined and virtuous, and a phrase in the Sigalaka Sutta, DN 31, where it is said one who has these traits is amply prepared for the next world. Well, I'd been caught up in other things, worldly things, and suddenly here was discipline. My discipline, the discipline, back. So now I gather having to do something else to see this discipline was either part of my illness (a mental disorder of some sort or another), or if there is just displacement at some level in my life. Anyhow, I wasn't sure how to handle myself. I've done what I could with the doctrine and discipline and sort of leveled out. I guess I should probably take sila more seriously, including guarding the sense doors, if I am to have this discipline return. Maybe I can just act more disciplined in whatever I do, I'm not really sure. Anyhow, I think this is a good thing for me, as when I think of the Buddha talk of the "run of the mill ordinary person, who has no regard for true men, and is not skilled or disciplined in their Dhamma," I can know it's not me. So I guess reading some scripture, lightly, and trying to understand it, would be good, towards working with more skill. And keeping in mind the discipline aspect of the Dhamma that I do know, and not to transgress it. And I don't think I'm terribly special for having this discipline, but fortunate, to have encountered it, and now having to make use of it, even as a duty. > -------------------------------------------------- > AL: > So I like to keep it simple, as I bought a small volume by > Bhikkhu Bodhi on the Noble > Eightfold Path, with books from its supplemental reading being well > under $10 each. Taking a broader approach, I am much less sure of > myself and it seems like I am not practising well or sanely. In fact, > a lot of my motivation in the Dhamma is fear. Fear of being reborn in > the states of deprivation. Certainly, a balanced perspective on this > would be healthy and good reason to learn and practise well, but I do > think I maintain an unhealthy fear of death and the process of dying > because I think it will lead to bad things. > ------------------------------------------------------ > > In ordinary sensible thinking, it is helpful to know our own > strengths and weaknesses. However, in the Buddha's teaching, we have > to know what strengths and weaknesses ultimately are. Ultimately, > they are paramattha dhammas - fleeting phenomena, which come and go > before the thinking mind can possibly catch hold of them. So maybe we can beat it to the punch and try to live strength before weakness comes? Seems feasible to me, if one were set on doing it. I'm just saying here my motivation is a lot of fear. Which is unhealthy I think. > > ------------------------------- > AL: > I must say, frustration is an understatement when I try to > jibe with the people in this group. > -------------------------------- > > :-) Ultimately, frustration is the paramattha dhamma, dosa. We > never know exactly when it is present or not present. Nor do we > have any control over it. If there are conditions for experiencing > dosa with attachment or conceit or wrong view, then that will > happen. If there are conditions for simply knowing that dosa is a > conditioned dhamma, then that will happen. We can talk all we like > about "I have frustration" or "I will concentrate on frustration > with detachment," but those thoughts are mere concepts and not what > the Buddha taught at all. Right but just compare this picture to one who is meditating and progressing with ease, and you see the point I'm trying to make. > > ---------------------------------------------------- > AL: > My whole world has revolved around sitting > meditation for years now, and all the fruitful results I have > acheived with it. > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Fine; if it does you good then do it. But please don't have the > wrong view, "The Buddha taught control over ultimate realities." But the path is to be walked and developed, is it not? > > ------------------- > AL: > It seems chancy that it was only recommended for monks of > high acheivement, > -------------------- > > You have misunderstood what Sarah was saying. No one - monk or > otherwise - has control over mindfulness. The sitting meditation > referred to in the suttas is about jhana absorption in which > consciousness returns over and over again to the same object. For > that to happen, there has to be freedom from distractions, and until > there is complete mastery of the jhanas, freedom from distractions > requires a rock-steady sitting posture in a quiet, remote locality. This was not my understanding of how Sarah meant it. Maybe she can clear this up for us so that we can discuss it further. > ------------------------ > AL: > as I and even some popular artists in the media I > know of have definitely had a three-phase experience with it. Not > being sure what I'm doing, though, had led me astray. In hindsight, > sitting meditation has helped me to see ultimate reality more > clearly, and definitely made things seem more 'real.' That is, when > it's going for me (or if it's not, when I keep at it with patience). > I've had results that I'm reluctant to talk about in this post > because it was profound compared to every day experience, or > recognizing a phenomenon here or there. > ------------------------ > > Profound it may have been, but recognising a phenomenon is > infinitely more profound. That is, after all, what the Buddha > taught. :-) > This just goes along with the last para, what I mean is that my practise has been about intention or at least seems so a lot of the time. I'm afraid I have to leave for weekly services at the local Vihara now, so I can not answer this last point in much detail, but please, address it if you see fit. Regards, A.L. > Ken H 45721 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 11:24am Subject: Away upasaka_howard Hi, all - I'll be away on a car trip to Chicago tomorrow through Tuesday night. I may have some internet usage there, but I won't be online much. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 45722 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 5:39pm Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... Hi Andrew - Thank you for the reply. A: > . > To do this, we would focus on an object of meditation, such as the > breath, and be aware of any stimuli from the five sense doors or mind, > as it really is. That means, when there is some stimuli, we take our > mind off the breath for a few moments and experience that stimuli > looking at it for the three characteristics that are common to all > conditioned realities: their selflessness, dissatisfactoriness, and > impermanence. This is observing the phenomenon with bare attention. T: Besides the breath, what else can be used to condition mindfulness to stay in front of the body (or within the body)? What are the restrictions (or limitations) of your method? A: > One major point. The book said that these characteristics of reality > are to be observed as they are, to be seen by themselves, so we do not have to take it on faith. > T: How do you "observe" the characteristics of a reality without thinking? Because if you recite the lines from your book then you're not seeing the "characteristics of reality" the way they really are. Respectfully, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Tep wrote: > > > > What is the most important meditation experience you have had that may be used to help people with good conceptual understandings to grasp how "reality works"? > (snipped) > You hear a dog, there is no conceptualizing 'dog' or any following > mental story-line or emotions. Only patterns of matter and energy > making an impression on your ear-sense. Practising like this, one can realize with direct vision that phenomenon are empty, are > ever-changing, and in continuous flux. > (snipped) > Regards, > A.L. 45723 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 6:23pm Subject: Desirable object - not important? philofillet Hi Nina and all Nina, I'd like to ask for some brief feedback on a point I found in an old post. You wrote "we often don't know if an object is desirable or not - and why should we? It is not important - it doesn not lead to detachment.." My questions: 1) "We often don't know" because it is too fast, the vipaka is already gone and there is only mental feeling that is likely to be object of awareness? (I'm referring here to a visual object, say, rather than body sense object) 2) Isn't "often don't know" more like "almost never know?" 3) "not important - it doesn't lead to detachment" for the above reason - that it is too fast for worldlings to be likely to insight - and it is therefore awareness of mental feeling that is likely to be the object that can be insighted in a way that can condition detachment? 4)Are there some situations in which awarness of an object as desirable can condition gratitude to the Buddha or other wholesome reflections? The other day I was walking by the river and came across a small jizo statue. (Buddhist guardian of children) Isn't that a desirable object with a certain intrinsic value that can be appreciated? Thanks in advance Nina. Metta, Phil p.s I have sopme questions to ask about piti in the Cetasika corner - maybe tonight. 45724 From: "Philip" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:19pm Subject: Re: Might I also add philofillet Hi Andrew, Kel, Charles and all A.L > You may be right that if we align our actions with those of > the noble >ones, it could help us get there sooner These words reminded me of my discussion with Charles about noble ones vs. worldlings. I would say- predictably - that intentionally aligning ourselves with the noble ones is misguided, but becoming aware of moments in which we are aligned due to conditions and appreciating these rare moments will condition further moments of this aligning. How grateful we can be for even a few moments a day in which our response to sensory objects resembles to a modest degree the response of the noble ones! Yes, that's a helpful word, "aligning" - I used "pale imitation" the other day, but imitation sounds too intentional to me. Others would be comfortable with "imitation" - and that's fine. If there is right understanding, imitation may be possible. Big if. Metta, Phil p.s just in passing, Andrew, I'll add my voice to the others that have expressed hope that you will hang around. Your posts always encourage me to consider being more ambitious re dhamma. 45725 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 18, 2005 8:56pm Subject: The Cosmologist lbidd2 Hi Christine and all, SN XII,48, "The Cosmologist" "At Saavatthi. Then a brahmin who was a cosmologist approached the Blessed One ... and said to him: "How is it, Master Gotama: does all exist?" "'All exists': this, brahmin, is the oldest cosmology." "Then, Master Gotama, does all not exist?" "'All does not exist': this, brahmin, is the second cosmology." "How is it, Master Gotama: is all a unity?" "'All is a unity': this, brahmin, is the third cosmology." "'Then, Master Gotama, is all a plurality?" "'All is a plurality;: this, brahmin, is the fourth cosmology. Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathaagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle..." When this was said, that brahmin said to the Blessed One: "Magnificent, Master Gotama! ... from today let Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life." Larry: I looked at the commentary to this and several similar suttas and this is what I came up with: "All exists" and "unity" are code or idiomatic for soul theories (eternalism). "All does not exist" and "plurality" are code for scientific realism (annhilationism). The middle way refutes these two in two ways. Seeing dependent arising, scientific realism doesn't occur. Seeing dependent cessation (dependent arising in reverse), soul theories, including self view, don't occur. Dependent arising refutes scientific realism by the dependent relationship between condition and conditioned and by its cyclical nature. Scientific realism isn't cyclical and its notion of cause and effect is linear and primitive. Dependent cessation refutes soul theories in that phenomena cease when their conditions cease. Self view is dependent on desire. With the cessation of desire there is the cessation of self view. Larry 45726 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 18, 2005 11:16pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 198 - Enthusiasm/piiti (p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] There are many different kinds of píti as it accompanies different types of citta. The píti which accompanies lobha-múla-citta is entirely different from the píti which accompanies kusala citta. The píti which accompanies jhånacitta is again very different. As we have seen, the “pervading happiness”, the fifth kind of píti which is of the highest degree, is the “root of absorption”. Píti which is an enlightenment factor and which develops through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa is different again from all other kinds. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45727 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 3:19am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 198 - Enthusiasm/piiti (p) htootintnaing Sarah wrote: Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] There are many different kinds of píti as it accompanies different types of citta. The píti which accompanies lobha-múla-citta is entirely different from the píti which accompanies kusala citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Sarah (and Nina), I do not think 'entirely different'. As it is piti cetasika, they (lobha-mula cittas and kusala cittas) share a single characteristic of piti. ;-) Just a different view? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's note continued: The píti which accompanies jhånacitta is again very different. As we have seen, the "pervading happiness", the fifth kind of píti which is of the highest degree, is the "root of absorption". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I seem to agree. But there is the characteristic pertinent to piti of all of kusala, akusala, and kiriya cittas. The difference is 'object', 'associated dhamma', 'supporting conditions'. If earlier piti.s are supported by later piti.s later piti.s seem to be stronger. But the molecular weight of Hydrogen is the same anywhere in this universe. Likewise 'when piti is taken as an object and contemplated on it, it will become obvious that it is just a dhamma and it has its own characteristic and implications. The weightage difference is the difference in object, associated dhamma, and supporting conditions. This is my thoughts. Maybe wrong. Or maybe logical. I reply this because there is the statement 'Questions, comments, different views welcome ;-)' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina's note continued: Píti which is an enlightenment factor and which develops through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa is different again from all other kinds. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Again this difference is because of differences in object, associated dhammas, and supporting conditions. Even though piti is nama dhamma, as sati-sambojjhanga is quite close to magga earlier piti just before magga serve as purejaata paccaya or prenascenct condition. This is my opinion. Prenascent condition is supported by ruupa only and it supports later naama dhamma. Example prenascent condition is sadda-ruupa serving as sadda-arammana or sound-object. It has a lifespan of 17 citta-kkhanas. Sadda-rupa serves as gocara ruupa or object ruupa. As soon as it arises, sota- vinnana does not still arise. The 1st vithi citta is panca-dvara- avajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness. Even this citta arises at the earliest when sadda ruppa has already been 4 citta-kkhanas old. After panca-dvara-avajjjana citta is sotavinnana citta. Sadda or sound arises earlier and serves as prenascent condition to sota-vinnana citta or ear-consciousness. So only 'ruupa' can serve as purejaata paccaya or prenascent condition. But I said that earlier piti.s may serve as prenascent condition so that later piti.s become stronger to that level of sati-sambojjhanga. But when real dhamma is examined, sati is just sati and it has its character both in kusala and akusala. I think the difference is object, associated dhammas, and supporting conditions. I will be looking forward to hearing from both Sarah and Nina. Sukin and Robert K are also welcome. With much respect, Htoo Naing 45728 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 3:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread (396) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are enemies outside of us. The attacks through the agents of weapon of any kind, the attacks through the agents of fire of any kinds including radiation, nuclear energy etc., the attacks through the agents of poison of any kind, and the attacks through the agents of animals of any kind are external enemies. May I be free from these attacks. May I be free from attacks with weapon. Here weapon include any outside agents like sticks, knives, guns, thorns, boiling water, boiling oil etc and also include body parts like leg, feet, fists, elbows, heels etc etc. May I be free from attackes with fire. Naked fire, flames, burning materials of any kind, radiation, nuclear etc etc be free and away from me. May I be free from attacks of poison of any kind whatever they are attacks by someone else or accidental happenings. May I be free from attacks with animals of any kind. Animals may attack by their own rights or they may attack through someone else wish. May I be free from such attacks by animals like snakes, dogs, foxes, wolves, tigers, lions etc etc. May you all be free from attacks of all such things. May they be free from attacks of all such things. May you be free from external enemies. May they be free from external enemies. May I be free from attacks of external enemies. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45729 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 4:07am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) philofillet Hello Htoo and all >> Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is >talked >as 'loving-kindness'. When I saw this I thought of the Dhammapada and the poor translation that is sometimes used "hatred never ceases by hatred, by love alone does it cease." Better translations use "non-hatred" or "non-hostility" Is it worthwhile to consider the difference between metta and adosa (non-aversion)? In that Dhammapada verse, is the original Pali adosa? Thanks in advance for your feedback Metta, Phiil 45730 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 4:29am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) htootintnaing Dear Phil, Metta and adosa have similarities and differences. You wrote: Hello Htoo and all [Htoo's old post]>Metta should not be equated with 'love'. To avoid this metta is talked as 'loving-kindness'. Phil: When I saw this I thought of the Dhammapada and the poor translation that is sometimes used "hatred never ceases by hatred, by love alone does it cease." Better translations use "non-hatred" or "non- hostility" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhammapada is talking about general hatred and general love. And it is not talking cetasikas adosa. So it is right in its own right. Hatred never ceases by hatred. Examples are 'They treated me bad like this. And I will revenge'. When revenge, other party will behave the same and there will be vicious cycle. So hatred never cease by hatred. So Dhammapada is right and translation, I think, is also right. 'By love alone does it cease'. This is also true. But what I said was dhamma-elemental level. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Is it worthwhile to consider the difference between metta and adosa (non-aversion)? In that Dhammapada verse, is the original Pali adosa? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dhammapada which version? I am not good at references. I may be searching for Pali in that Dhammapada verse. 'Is it worthwhile to consider the difference between metta and adosa'? Metta is not talked as a cetasika. Adosa is refered to as a cetasika. Adosa arises with each and every 'sobhana citta' or 'beautiful consciousness'. Beautiful consciousness are 1. 8 mahakusala cittas, 8 mahavipaka cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas 2. 5 rupakusala cittas, 5 rupavipaka cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas 3. 4 arupakusala cittas, 4 arupavipaka cittas, 4 arupakiriya cittas 4. 4 lokuttara kusala cittas, 4 lokuttara vipaka cittas Adosa is there in all of these consciousness. But there is not always metta in many of these consciousness. Metta only arise when one contemplates on 'beings' to be filled with goodness and to be freed from badness. So there does have difference between metta and adosa. But metta is adosa while not all adosas are metta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Phil: Thanks in advance for your feedback Metta, Phiil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You are welcome. I will be responding as long as I have access to the forum. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45731 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 18, 2005 9:09pm Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 2! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, this Misery is caused by Acquisition! Another consequent consideration is: Stopping all Acquisition of Substrate, ends all arising of Misery! Taking up many acquisitions, clinging to possessions & thereby accumulating fuel for renewed becoming, the fool comes to misery ever again & again! Letting go, renouncing, & leaving all behind, the wise goes scot free at ease! Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter the state of Nibbana right here & now in this very life, or if there is remaining traces of clinging left, the state of non-return... Those who neglect understanding Clinging, origin of Clinging, End of Clinging, and how Clinging is completely & irreversibly eliminated, are incapable of release by understanding, are incapable of mental release, are incapable of direct knowledge, and are thereby incapable of making an end... They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again & again... While those who undertake understanding of Clinging, Origin, End & Way, are indeed capable of mental release by understanding, direct knowledge, and thus capable of making an end... They are headed towards the deathless! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45732 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:01am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) philofillet Hi Htoo Thanks for your speedy reply > Dhammapada which version? I am not good at references. I may be > searching for Pali in that Dhammapada verse. It is in the first book (chapter?) of Dhammapada, "The pairs." The two translations available at access to insight use "non-hatred" and "non-hostility" but we sometimes come across translations which use "love", which always seem to me to suit western taste. I am more comfortable with non-hatred, because as you say adosa arises together with all sobhanna cetasikas. Sometimes it seems to me that right understanding rising together with adosa is enough to let go of a feeling of ill-will. For example, if we understand that the person is doing what he's doing due to conditions, that the person is just a concept, a vehicle for conditioned nama and rupa - even if we understand that in a shallow way I find it is often enough to let feelings of hostility drop. It doesn't seem to me that there is always metta arising at these times - though I don't know how to recognize metta for sure. Not to worry about looking up the Pali, Htoo. There is a version online with Pali and English together. I will try to find it. Thanks for your feedback re metta/adosa. I might have some more questions about it later. Metta, Phil 45733 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:12am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) philofillet Hello again Htoo. > Not to worry about looking up the Pali, Htoo. There is a version > online with Pali and English together. I will try to find it. Here is what I found: Na hi verena verani sammantidha kudacanam averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.1 Verse 5: Hatred is, indeed, never appeased by hatred in this world. It is appeased only by loving-kindness. This is an ancient law. 1. esa dhammo sanantano: This is the same as "poranako dhammo," the doctrine followed by the Budhha and his disciples. The exhortation is not to return hatred for hatred but to conquer it by loving- kindness (absence of hatred). (end quote) Metta, Phil 45734 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:02am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, [S=> is present Sukin's response] =============================== Old Htoo: > > These are words in mahasatipatthaana sutta. > > How would you say? Was The Buddha wrong to say these words? > > First we have to determine what Satipatthana is, and here we both > agree that it is the sati and panna with a paramattha dhamma as > object. And do you agree that *this* then is the practice and not > when there is concept as object? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Satipatthana are kaayaanupassana or contemplation on the body, > vedanaanupassana or contemplation on feeling, cittaanupassanaa or > contemplation on the mind, dhammaanupassanaa or contemplation on the > dhamma that arise. S=> What is `contemplation' and what is `body', `feeling', `mind' and `dhamma'? Are there ever concepts as object of satipatthana? ============================== > Sukin: > Second, the above reference to different spans of time does suggest > that some might take 7(or 70 or more) years and some might take 1 > day (or 7 or fewer minutes), doesn't it? So why the difference? > Accumulated sati, panna and other parami, no? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha's path is valid, reproducible, right at any time. S=> If you mean the Buddha's path as in the development of sati and panna, then wouldn't you agree that when it is not satipatthana [or at least understanding intellectually what this is], then the path is not being reproduced? And can any `self' reproduce this path? When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that with the path being reproduced? ================================== Htoo: > These are The Buddha words that when one follows hese 4 contemplation for > 7 years, ---- 7 days, he will attain one of 2 fruit of arahatta magga > or anagami magga. This is reproducible path. If you do not believe do > a research and do statistical analysis. 7 years to 7 days are within > Gausian bell. S=> What is Gausian bell, and what is the significance of this? What is it that I don't believe and research into what are you talking about? ================================ Htoo: > But for those with mandha panna, it may take long. > But for those with tikkha panna, it may take short. > > Every liberated beings just passed through satipatthaana. Kondanna, > Santati, pataacaaraa etc are examples. S=> Has anyone suggested otherwise? But I guess the problem is that you are equating satipatthana with the `practice' as taught by various teachers of meditation and I am taking it to be a momentary arising of sati and panna, not within anyone's control and unrelated to any idea about time, place or activity. So we keep stating our view point more like talking to ourselves than to the other. ;-) ============================= > Sukin: > I think when sati and panna become bala, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Start to regurgitate. S=> This is one instance and I can understand why for example, Tep feels that Sarah sounds like a broken record. ;-) So let us discuss this so that we don't miss the other's viewpoint. I start with the question: Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and panna? Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the path be walked upon? ============================ > Sukin: > then there is no question that vipassana can be reached through the > practice of satipatthana, and this may take as Sutta say, 7 years or > 7 days. And the audiences of the Satipatthana Sutta were indeed very > ripe. Are we of this same level? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha did not discriminate regarding Dhamma. Satipatthana is > dhamma. Satipatthaana is for all level of beings whether they are not > perfected or not perfected. S=> I am reading as I go along, so now I got the answer I am looking for. You are saying that the Buddha did not discriminate between the levels of wisdom and lack of, between beings? And now I recall a remark to my last post on `accumulations'. You seemed to question the importance of this, am I correct? If so, then we can discuss this in a separate post? ============================ Htoo: > Otherwise satipatthaana will not say > > 'when pleasurable feeling in connection with sensuous things arises > he knows it arises'. > > Did the ripe one have sexual desire, sensuous desire? This indicate > that satipatthaana is for all level of beings. S=> The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! Only the Anagami doesn't. But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being addressed to the so called `ripe', it does not mean that it is not meant for the `unripe'. In fact it is the contents of this Sutta that make it clear to us what the Practice is all about. We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we may not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not `doing'. One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's teachings'. Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all about and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti. My contention is that when a certain section of the unripe hears the instruction, he misunderstands it. Not having the understanding about the uncontrollability of dhammas, he interprets the sutta as things to `do'. The ripe did not have such a misunderstanding, instead by the power of the accumulated panna, attention to paramattha dhammas arose. The unripe's attention, goes instead to "concepts". If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. ============================== > Sukin: > As is apparent, most of us today can't even differentiate on the > intellectual level between concept and reality ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > I met a young lady. I was shocked that she was quite advanced even > though she could not say higher words like 'sati' > and 'panna' 'accumulation' 'sampajaana' etc etc let alone arahatta > magga, anagami magga and vipassana naana. > > She was not thinking in intellectual level. S=> Did she have a problem with "thinking in intellectual level"? ;-) Are you telling me, she did not even hear about "sati" before and that she already developed it to a high degree? And how did you assess her level of understanding? Did you talk to her about nama and rupa and did she know the difference? ============================= > Sukin: > and have so much self-attachment that we refuse to believe that > satipatthana is about mindfulness of "realities" alone. Are the > conditions such that the above time scale applies to this level of > panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I have explained above. It is within Gausian bell. The blunt > may take many many lives while the wise just take a single stanza. S=> OK, so now I see that you do believe in the power of accumulations. So can the `blunt' not go the wrong way? If so, is it not more important to determine what is and what is not the path? Htoo you have good knowledge of the Abhidhamma, so I think you could consider what the path might be without being fooled by the illusion of a `self walking the path'. Why don't you do this? ============================== > After reading my comment above, what do you now think? > BTW, why don't you point to the possibility that the contention is > between `your interpretation' of the Buddha's words and `my own', > instead of questioning my saddha? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Because 'The Buddha's words are denied'. S=> Well, neither of us can ask the Buddha what he actually meant. But we can take into account the hundreds of other suttas and especially the Abhidhamma which point to the possibility of an interpretation unlike the one you choose to make, one that would be valid and consistent with the rest of the Tipitaka. But I have just read a post to Sarah in which you have for some reason chosen to disregard the Abhidhamma [perhaps you mean to point to Sarah's being caught in Abhidhamma logic?] preferring instead to stick to your interpretation and giving no other reason than, "this is what the Buddha instructed". :-/ ============================== > > Old Sukin: > > There are dhammas arising all the time, some are impossible to > > understand even intellectually, but aren't others like, seeing, > > hearing, thinking, feeling, hardness, sound, taste and so on can > > be "known"? I am not saying that they will be understood with any > > clarity and surely `doubt' does often arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: These are ideas. > > Any more than your own? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Pardon? S=> You referred to my statement as mere "ideas" and I agree. What I wanted to know is whether you regard much of what you say to be so as well. =============================== > I was more modest and projected vipassana nana, but your projection > sound very ambitious considering 20th century man! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I am not good at language especially English. What is 20th > century man! ? S=> People living at this point in time. The implication is, the level of understanding most of us have, to think that we can become sakadagamis and anagamis is not being realistic. Actually, deeper down I see some miscalculation between causes and fruits. ============================ > Practicing *is* the experience (by sati and panna), no experience is > not practicing. I will add, wrong intellectual understanding will not > lead to the practice (hence experience) but will lead to wrong > practice. And this is worse than having `no practice' when having as > yet only the right intellectual understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Now I find why you and some DSGs are afraid of practice. S=> I don't think so, and this is why we keep going in circles. There is no `I' nor `some DSGs' who fear practice, there is just the perception to whatever degree of lobha and ditthi associated with such an idea, and this conditions among other things, seeing the wrongness in `doing' anything and not a matter of being "afraid of practice", do you see the difference? And `no practice' being better than `wrong practice' should be quite obvious. In the former there can yet be development of pariyatti, whereas in the latter, pariyatti is wrong even while we are thinking that patipatti is being developed. And the delusion of this takes us further away from the correct path. But of course you won't be agreeing with this. ;-) ======================================= > > Old Sukin: > > The practice involves `insight' and if it is not, then it is > > only `thinking'!! But if we mistake the false for the real, then it > > becomes hard to convince otherwise. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Dittha dhamma are in sight. > > Please explain. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is 'words from mahasatipatthana suttas'. When these are > not known how one will develop right understanding. S=> Yes, and what do the words point to other than dhammas which can be experienced with sati and panna in the moment? Right understanding can be developed on the intellectual level with the help of the Abhidhamma without reference to the Satipatthana Sutta. But if the realities expounded in the Abhidhamma is not understood or accepted, then the Satipatthana will be wrongly interpreted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Old Sukin: > > Of course, everyone does experience hardness, seeing, feelings, > > thinking and so on; otherwise they would not be able to function at > > all. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: But 'the bhikkhu pajaanaati'. > > Yes, the bhikkhu there, but are we like them? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I think, this is the third time. The Buddha did not > discriminate. S=> You are missing the point here. When you say that a person "should" be aware of all his activities and you equate this to be `following the Sutta's instructions', then I contend that this is not the same as the `knowing' of the bhikkhu'. I put `should' in quotation marks because, this goes against "is", i.e. the nature of paramattha dhammas. ============================== Htoo: > The Buddha did not discrimately preached as this dhamma is for > anagam, this dhamma is for sakadagam, this dhamma is for sotapam, > this dhamma is for puthujam and this dhamma is just for lay people. S=> Yes it is, but dhammas become `Dhamma' only when there is panna which knows which is which, pariyatti, patipatti or pativedha, and for this sacca parami is most important. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Old Sukin: > > But little does he know that besides them being only `thinking', > > wrong view actually influences the quality of the experience. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: Experience and thinking are different. > > Yes, and only panna will know the difference. > > > Old Sukin: > > He ends up thinking and relating any new thing learned with the > > particular practice. In other words he risks developing a distorted > > understanding of conditionality. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? S=> If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. ========================= > The question has been and still is, if one is indeed following the > Buddha's Path doing the things you are suggesting them to do. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> On the study level, only when there is pariyatti is there a corresponding level of `following the Path'. On the practice level, this must be the actual moments of Satipatthana and not in the intention associated with other roots and which then condition certain activities, like walking or sitting meditation. =========================== > BTW, correct pariyatti and any consequent patipatti necessarily makes > following the path and life in general, easier, not more difficult. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Is there any difficulty any easy? S=> Kusala brings ease and akusala doesn't. =============================== > > Htoo: > > If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not > be any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. > > Take `self', `someone' out of the equation and the path becomes > clearer and easier to follow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> "There is a Path, but no being who walks it." This is not just theoretical. If we observe our experiences we can see how every phenomena is conditioned and beyond control. Conditions leading to akusala can be observed without the interference of self, and so kusala is being developed. And when kusala is observed, there can be appreciation of the conditions leading to it, and this adds to the development too. And conditions good and bad, continue to roll on. The `self' that thinks it knows better, can only become an obstacle to development. ================================= > > > > Old Sukin: > > But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching > > realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do > you expect the reaction to be? > > > I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is > > what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the > > kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of > many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... > > A commentary would greatly be appreciated. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Who is that 'a commentary'? S=> I didn't understand your statement "If The Buddha's Path is followed,...." written in reaction to my comments before that. So I asked for an elaboration, a commentary. ;-) Metta, Sukinder Ps: This is a very long post. Please don't feel obliged to answer point by point; if possible you can just draw out one or two important ones. Sorry to put the burden on you. Pps: I will answer your other post tomorrow, maybe. 45735 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:39am Subject: Re: The Cosmologist buddhistmedi... Hi Larry and others - I am not sure what "scientific realism" really means to you. Larry: > Dependent arising refutes scientific realism by the dependent > relationship between condition and conditioned and by its cyclical > nature. Scientific realism isn't cyclical and its notion of cause and > effect is linear and primitive. > T: If you are talking about sciences that involve lives, then I have seen plenty of cases that are cyclical like births and deaths, and they are influenced by conditions too. Causes and effects we have seen in real lives are nonlinear and quite sophisticated. Larry: > > Dependent cessation refutes soul theories in that phenomena cease when their conditions cease. Self view is dependent on desire. With the > cessation of desire there is the cessation of self view. > T: Isn't self view dependent on both avijja and tanha, or mainly on avijja since tanha is caused primarily by avijja? Respectfully, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > SN XII,48, "The Cosmologist" > 45736 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:50am Subject: Dhamma Thread (397) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, May I be free from enemies. May you be free from enemies. May they be free from enemies. May enemies of both inside (dosa) and outside (weapon, fire, poison, animals) not be able to attack us. There should not be any boundaries between any person or any being. 1. being who is myself 2. being who is one that I dear of 3. being who is one that I hate of 4. being who is one that I do not dear or hate of All these beings should have receive equal weightage of metta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45737 From: "Andrew Levin" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions lone_renunciant --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Andrew - > > Thank you for the reply. > > T: Besides the breath, what else can be used to condition mindfulness > to stay in front of the body (or within the body)? What are the restrictions > (or limitations) of your method? We can use the rise and fall of the abdomen as our primary object of meditation, sensations as they appear in the body, or where our body touches the ground. I know of no restrictions of the method of breathing, other than over the long-term it may become more difficult to use, as in my case, but I speculate that for others without a condition like mine may be able to use it throughout their lives, and acheive full realization just with the breath as a meditation subject. > > A: > One major point. The book said that these characteristics of reality > > are to be observed as they are, to be seen by themselves, so we do > not have to take it on faith. > > > > T: How do you "observe" the characteristics of a reality without > thinking? Because if you recite the lines from your book then you're not > seeing the "characteristics of reality" the way they really are. Well maybe an example will serve well. If you have pain in your leg, or stiffness, you only try to be aware of the bare sensations as they are. You do not conceptualize the pain as 'my' pain or think about how your leg hurts, you merely take the bare sensations as they are passed from the nerves to your brain. Does this answer your question? > > Respectfully, > > > Tep Regards, A.L. 45738 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:10am Subject: Adosa and metta ( was Re: Dhamma Thread (393) htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: Hello again Htoo. > Not to worry about looking up the Pali, Htoo. There is a version > online with Pali and English together. I will try to find it. Here is what I found: Na hi verena verani sammantidha kudacanam averena ca sammanti esa dhammo sanantano.1 Verse 5: Hatred is, indeed, never appeased by hatred in this world. It is appeased only by loving-kindness. This is an ancient law. 1. esa dhammo sanantano: This is the same as "poranako dhammo," the doctrine followed by the Budhha and his disciples. The exhortation is not to return hatred for hatred but to conquer it by loving- kindness (absence of hatred). (end quote) Metta, Phil ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Phil, How cool! Thanks for your rapid searching. In the version as we both can see there is no mention of 'dosa' or 'adosa'. But 'vera' and 'avera' take over the job. Anyway let us take an example. There is a lake. There is no wind or even subtle breeze. So the water surface of the lake is well calm. OK. A very subtle breeze comes, the water surface a bit moves. A fair breeze comes, the surface ripples. A gust of wind arises, the surface shakes. A small stone drops in, the surface shake a bit more. A large stone is thrown with a force, the surface moves invigoratively. In all examples, the water surface is disturbed to defferent degrees of movement. Hatred and non-hatred is a bit strong, I think. I prefer aversion and non-aversion. I may discover other appropriate English word for dosa and adosa at a later time. Anyway the verse just say 'copnventional sense'. It says 'hatred of today world' and not to cetasika dosa. Examples are when a nation is attacked by another, she may revenge. This will cause endless wars. Only loving-kindness will solve this problem. At least a side has to breed or grow loving-kindness or metta. In Myanmar there is a saying 'hook hooks only hook'. Fighting or any conflict is because both sides are hooked (have hatred). If one side is straight then the hook side will slide along the straight one and there will not be any hooking that is no more fighting. Metta is always cool. But I am not good at details of metta brahmavihaara. There are many more implications than I have just written in Dhamma Thread posts. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45739 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:14am Subject: Dhamma Thread (398) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, May all beings be free from enemies. These all beings are all beings who are living right now in any of 31 realms or 31 planes of existence. As soon as the boundries are broken down and there is equilibrium there is limitlessness. This is appamanna. And this is appamanna kammatthaana or 'limitless pure-living'. The boundries are between 1. being who we believe is ourselves. 2. beings who are deared by being so called 'we' 3. beings who are hated by being so called 'we' 4. beings who are not deared or not hated by being so called 'we' So metta is not just limited to 'me' or 'us'. If metta is limited to 'me' or 'us', we will be selfish and we will always be doing good only to us and not to others and we will not be performing any altrusitic jobs. If metta is stopped when enemies are encountered, then there is limitation. So as soon as the boundries are broken there is unlimitness or there is appamanna. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45740 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:18am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 3. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin, I respond just a part here as the message is long. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Satipatthana are kaayaanupassana or contemplation on the body, > vedanaanupassana or contemplation on feeling, cittaanupassanaa or > contemplation on the mind, dhammaanupassanaa or contemplation on the > dhamma that arise. S=> What is `contemplation' and what is `body', `feeling', `mind' and `dhamma'? Are there ever concepts as object of satipatthana? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: These are The Buddha's words. There are separate 21 sessions. a) 14 sessions are contemplation on the body b) 1 session is contemplation on the feeling c) 1 session is contemplation on the mind d) 5 session is contemplation on the dhamma that arise Contemplation is 'mental review'. Anu means 'detailed' and passana means 'contemplation'. The Buddha did not preach in Mahasatipatthaana 'this is pannatti' 'this is paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you do not contemplate on pannati' 'bhikkhus you just see paramattha dhamma' 'bhikkhus you just see naama and ruupa'. Suttas are vohara desana or pannatta desana. Without words no one can speak. Without words there is no way to instruct. Written scripts are equivalent of spoken words. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45741 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:31am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 4. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dialogue 4: Dear Sukin, This is 2nd reply to your today message. You wrote: > Sukin: > Second, the above reference to different spans of time does suggest > that some might take 7(or 70 or more) years and some might take 1 > day (or 7 or fewer minutes), doesn't it? So why the difference? > Accumulated sati, panna and other parami, no? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > The Buddha's path is valid, reproducible, right at any time. S=> If you mean the Buddha's path as in the development of sati and panna, then wouldn't you agree that when it is not satipatthana [or at least understanding intellectually what this is], ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) Why do you 'at least' here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: then the path is not being reproduced? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If not reproduced, it means one is not following the Path. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: And can any `self' reproduce this path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Let me see 'self'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: There is no 'Htoo' at all. But regarding satipatthaana path the results are reproducible for anyone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that with the path being reproduced? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When I was talking conventioanlly you do not follow. But now you are asking 'conventional activity'. What is conventional activity? But anyone who follows mahasatipatthaana path that is who contemplates on the body in connection with 14 contemplation, on the feeling, on the mind, on the dhamma that arise they will see the results. ( These results are reproduced as The Buddha discovered). The Buddha clearly preached that 'contemplation on the body ( 14 sessions)' 'contemplation on the feeling' 'contemplation on the mind' 'contemplation on the dhamma that arise' will lead to achievement of arahatta magga and if there is remanents of defilements then it will lead to achievement of anagami magga. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45742 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:38am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 5. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and interested members, Sukin continued: When the path was reproduced for Sariputta and when Htoo intends to `do' satipatthana, are these two the same path? Or are you thinking of conventional activity again and equating that with the path being reproduced? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: If I have to say like you, there is no Sariputta ( I use capital 'S'), no Htoo and no Sukin. What is 'conventioanl activity'? I have asked you in the previous post. If you have answered in your reply, please do not answer again in this reply post. But anyone whoever it is if they follow the Path of mahasatipatthana they will see the results as The Buddha discovered. On average if someone diligently practise he or she will see the results within 7 years or 7 days. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45743 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:46am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 6. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and interested members, Sukin continued: Htoo: > These are The Buddha words that when one follows hese 4 contemplation for > 7 years, ---- 7 days, he will attain one of 2 fruit of arahatta magga > or anagami magga. This is reproducible path. If you do not believe do > a research and do statistical analysis. 7 years to 7 days are within > Gausian bell. S=> What is Gausian bell, and what is the significance of this? What is it that I don't believe and research into what are you talking about? -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Htoo: The Buddha preached that if one follows mahasatipatthaana he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there left remanents he or she will attain anagami magga within 7 years. Let alone 7 years, if he or she follow satipatthaana 6 years, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 year; let alone 1 year if one follows satipatthaana for 7 months,--2 months, 1 months, half month and let alone half month if he or she follows satipatthaana for 7 days he or she will attain arahatta magga or if there are remanents of defilement he or she will attain anagami magga. 7 years maximum and 7 days minimun. This is The Buddha general statement. There is no mention of other words whether 1 day or 100,000 kappas. So this is as it seems like general statement it is for average person and it is for most frequencies. There are many frequency distribution curves. If you are not good at such matter please ask Professor Howard Weissamen. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45744 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (399) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, Metta is a good thing and metta is universal to all. There are many different ways of practising of metta. There are 528 methods. 4 citations are general. There are 5 objects as general. So there are 20 citation. And there are 7 objects that are less general. So there are 28 citations. Altogether there are 48 citations. These 48 citations are general again. There are 10 specific directive citations. They are 1. east 2. south-east 3. south 4. south-west 5. west 6. north-west 7. north 8. north-east 9. up 10.down So there will be 48.10 = 480 citations. These 480 cittas are added to more general citation 48. So there will be 480 + 48 = 528 metta. In Myanmar cultural society, people say 528-metta when they talk about love between mother and son, father and daughter, brother and sister etc. But love between mother and son may not be as pure as these 528 citational metta. Because mother will have attachment of lobha and so does the son. This is like intellectual calculation. But one can practise metta in this way. 4 general citations are 1. sabbe sattaa averaa hontu 2. sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu 3. sabbe sattaa aniighaa hontu 4. sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu 5 general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe sattaa 2. sabbe paanaa 3. sabbe bhuutaa 4. sabbe puggalaa 5. sabbe attabhaava-pariyapannaa 7 less general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe ariyaa 2. sabbe anariyaa 3. sabbe purisaa 4. sabba itthiyo 5. sabbe manussaa 6. sabbe devaa 7. sabbe vinipatika asuraa So there are 12 objects and there are 4 citations. There will be 12.4 altogether 48 citations for general citation. There are 10 directions or disaa and so there will be 480 citations for all these directions. Along with 48 general 480 citations will make a total of 528 citations. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45745 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 10:51am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > > > > T: How do you "observe" the characteristics of a reality without > > thinking? Because if you recite the lines from your book then > you're not > > seeing the "characteristics of reality" the way they really are. > > Well maybe an example will serve well. If you have pain in your leg, > or stiffness, you only try to be aware of the bare sensations as they > are. You do not conceptualize the pain as 'my' pain or think about > how your leg hurts, you merely take the bare sensations as they are > passed from the nerves to your brain. Does this answer your question? > Hi, Andrew - Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their arising and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about other more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the arising and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); formations (sankhara) ? #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. Respectfully, Tep ======== 45746 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:07am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 7. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: Htoo: > But for those with mandha panna, it may take long. > But for those with tikkha panna, it may take short. > > Every liberated beings just passed through satipatthaana. Kondanna, > Santati, pataacaaraa etc are examples. S=> Has anyone suggested otherwise? But I guess the problem is that you are equating satipatthana with the `practice' as taught by various teachers of meditation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here you are completely and totally wrong. I have already given you examples. The examples are Kondanna, Santati, Pataacaaraa and also Ananda. Did I suggest you any 'practice' as you quoted. I have just been talking on mahasatipatthaana and 14 contemplation on the body, 1 contemplation on the feeling, 1 contemplation on the mind, 5 contemplations on the dhamma that arise. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: and I am taking it to be a momentary arising of sati and panna, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I see. O! I see. You are just talking on 'a momentary arising of sati and panna'. So you will be driving your children to the school and you are developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when you are driving, reading these messages, you are developing 'a momentary sati and panna' when you are relaxedly doing daily acitvities like watching news, talking news to friends, discussing discussion points with friends and momentarily developing sati and panna. I see. I see. You never sit because it is conventional and it may cause you reaching on the wrong path? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: not within anyone's control and unrelated to any idea about time, place or activity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I just see these as 'words'. There are 'words' like 'sati and panna, accumulation, no control'. But I do not think 'a momentary sati' and 'momentary panna' is enough to understand The Buddha teachings. Because just in 'a blink' there have been 1,000,000,000,000 consciousness happened. So in a second there will be more and in a minute there are more and more moments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: So we keep stating our view point more like talking to ourselves than to the other. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not know. But if one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she will attain arahatta magga or anagami magga. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45747 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: Might I also add/ Tep's Questions htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: nerves to your brain. Does this answer your > question? > > Hi, Andrew - Yes, your answer is clear about observing pains because their arising and passing away phenomena are easy to know. But what about other more subtle things? For example, how would you observe the arising and passing away of following things: neutral feelings#; consciousnesses (cittas); perceptions* (sanna khandha); formations (sankhara) ? #adukkhamasukham vaa vedanam vedayamaano adukkhamasukham vedanam vedayaamiti pajaanaa ti * iti sannaya samudhayo, iti sananya atthangamo Thank you for the reply and for your nice intention. Respectfully, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep and Andrew, Nice discussion. You draw out good discussion points. I will be looking forward to seeing Andrew's good answer. Following feelings is much much more difficult than the breath or body movements. With regards, Htoo Naing 45748 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:20am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 8. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: > Sukin: > I think when sati and panna become bala, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Start to regurgitate. S=> This is one instance and I can understand why for example, Tep feels that Sarah sounds like a broken record. ;-) So let us discuss this so that we don't miss the other's viewpoint. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: OK, Sukin. Let us see it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued: I start with the question: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The wise's questions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin asked: Do you agree that there are different level of accumulated sati and panna? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sassata ditthi is there inside that statement. But I can understand what you said. But you will skilfully cover that subtle sassata ditthi as if it is not there. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin continued to ask: Do you agree that if there were not the right accumulations, then no matter what, the Buddha's teachings will not be understood, less the path be walked upon? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said above there is subtle sassata ditthi or eternity view. There is a spirit (named as citta or mind or consciousness or whatever) and that spirit or soul or citta is accumulating such and such dhamma. I just simply said that 'If one is following satipatthaana as The Buddha preached he or she will be seeing results in 7 years maximum and 7 days minimum. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45749 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:21am Subject: Dhamma Thread (400) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 4 general citations are 1. sabbe sattaa averaa hontu 2. sabbe sattaa abyapajjaa hontu 3. sabbe sattaa aniighaa hontu 4. sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu Sabbe means 'all' 'each and every'. Satta means 'sentient being'. Vera means 'enemy' and avera means 'free from enemies'. Hontu means 'be that'. So sabbe satta avera hontu means 'may all beings be free from enemies'. 1. May all beings be free from enemies (inside & outside) Byapajjati means 'trouble'. Abyapajja means 'untroubled'. So 2. Sabbe satta abyapajjaa hontu means 'May all beings be untroubled'. Anigha means 'niddukkha'. Niddukkha means 'free of sufferings, pains'. So 3. Sabbe satta anighaa hontu means 'May all beings be free from sufferings'. Sukha means 'pleasure'. Sukhi-atta means 'physical pleasure'. So 4. Sabbe satta sukhi-attaanam pariharantu means 'May all beings be healthy and wealthy'. 5 general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe sattaa or 'all beings' 2. sabbe paanaa or 'all creatures' 3. sabbe bhuutaa or 'all grown beings' 4. sabbe puggalaa or 'all individuals' 5. sabbe attabhaava-pariyapannaa or 'all life-inclusive beings' 7 less general objects are satta-pannatti and they are 1. sabbe ariyaa or 'all arahats' 2. sabbe anariyaa or 'all non-arahats' 3. sabbe purisaa or 'all male beings' 4. sabba itthiyo or 'all female beings' 5. sabbe manussaa or 'all human beings' 6. sabbe devaa or 'all devas that is deva-devas and brahma-devas' 7. sabbe vinipatika asuraa or all non-human beings There are 12 objects as general. They are 'the idea or pannatti of mentioned 5 and 7, altogether 12 ideas or 12 pannatti. And there are 4 alternative wishing or citations. So there will be 48 general wishing or citation or mental exertion on these 48 things. After general mental exertion, one who is practising metta may does so to the 10 directions of east, south-east, south, south-west, west, north-west, north, north-east, up and down. When doing mental exertion to up and down, these have to include all beings that are above hios or her level even though the beings above may be in 8 directions. In this way, all directions are included and all beings in X-axis, Y- axis, Z-axis of both right and left or up and down or faced and backed. So there will be 528 mental exertion of metta. Again initially one has to cite or mentally cultivate that he or she starts with 4 citations to himself or herself. 1. Aham avero homi. 2. Aham abyapajjo homi. 3. Aham anigho homi. 4. Aham sukhi-attaanam pariharaami. 1. May I be free from enemies. 2. May I be untroubled. 3. May I be free from sufferings. 4. May I be healthy and wealthy both physically and mentally. 1 is equal to 1. 2 is equal to 2. When we put 1 pound in one side of a scale and another 1 pound to other side of the scale, the scale's indicator will show equal. As soon as one side is heavier than the other the indicator will indicate that heavier side is heavier. Metta has to be equal to all if it is to be universal. That is what universal friendliness means. There must not be any boundries. There are 4 different beings that we may put a boundry. 1. being who is our self 2. beings who are deared by our self 3. beings who are hated by our self 4. beings who are not deared or hated by our self If it is true metta, then there must not be any boundry between these 4 beings. If this happen then this metta is unlimited metta and it is appamanna metta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45750 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:24am Subject: Re: Might I also add kelvin_lwin Hi Phil, It occurs to me the crux of your position is mixing the path and the fruit. > I would say- predictably - that intentionally aligning ourselves > with the noble ones is misguided, but becoming aware of moments in > which we are aligned due to conditions and appreciating these rare > moments will condition further moments of this aligning. kel: There's no misguidance with trying to emulate or striving to better oneself and act like how a sotapanna would. For example just try having as good sila as you can, including mano. The danger is in thinking one is already there and the sila is unbrokable hence mistaking onself of having obtained the fruit (and stopping the practice). I can give you numerous suttas of even well-learned bikkhus having made this same mistake of their attainments. So we should be weary of wrong assessment but the solution is to keep walking on the path. Have confidence in yourself that you can do it and try to do it. If we're being objective, we'll see we fail many times but the frequency should lessen with each attempt. As Htoo been pointing out, this is a progressive path, there IS definite results IF you do it right. So if there's no progress then you're surely doing something wrong. - kel 45751 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 9. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: Htoo: > Otherwise satipatthaana will not say > 'when pleasurable feeling in connection with sensuous things arises > he knows it arises'. > Did the ripe one have sexual desire, sensuous desire? This indicate > that satipatthaana is for all level of beings. S=> The ripe can have sexual desire, why not?!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course, you can. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Only the Anagami doesn't. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: But one thing we need to be clear first. The Satipatthana Sutta being addressed to the so called `ripe', ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Does the sutta say it is for 'the so called `ripe'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: it does not mean that it is not meant for the `unripe'. In fact it is the contents of this Sutta that make it clear to us what the Practice is all about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: You seem to see. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: We know in other words, the path treaded by the ariyans which we may not have understood from reading most other Suttas. But this Sutta is a "description" of the path and this is about `understanding' and not `doing'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-)) :-)) :-)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: One cannot make sati arise by `intention' to `follow the Buddha's teachings'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: So you never do it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Only panna can come to know really what the Buddhadhamma is all about and it is only panna which will "practice". Re: the relationship between pariyatti and patipatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If one walks it is paripatti. If one shows it is pariyatti. If one destines it is pativedha. The teaching is the same. The essence is the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: My contention is that when a certain section of the unripe hears the instruction, he misunderstands it. Not having the understanding about the uncontrollability of dhammas, he interprets the sutta as things to `do'. The ripe did not have such a misunderstanding, instead by the power of the accumulated panna, attention to paramattha dhammas arose. --------- Htoo: This is following. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: The unripe's attention, goes instead to "concepts". ----------- Htoo: This is not following. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: If this is conditioned by lobha and ditthi, then these concepts can be taken for real and thought of as valid objects of contemplation. However if instead there is some level of panna [pariyatti or satipatthana}, then concept can be seen as mere concept, as per the corresponding level of panna and no idea of `doing' follows. ============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :D Idea of 'doing'. I do not know that. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45752 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:44am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 10. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, Sukin wrote: > > Htoo: How distorted when one follow The Buddha's Path? S=> If it is `self' doing, then whether it claims to be following the Buddha's Path or not, it is surely distorted. ========================= Htoo: If one does follow, it is not distorted. Distortion is because of not following. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45753 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread (401) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many ways of practising on 'metta brahmavihara' or 'pure- living on loving-kindness'. Citations of 528 sentences or mental exertion on these 528 wishes is just a means of doing loving-kindness. 'Sukhino vaa khemino hontu sabba satta bhavantu sukhitattaa'. Sukha is wellbeing. Khema means 'free of danger'. Hontu means 'be that'. Sabba means 'all' 'everyone'. Satta means being. Bhavantu means 'exist, fill, full'. Sukhitatta_ sukhi + atta means physical wellbeing. 1. May all beings be healthy, free from danger and filled with physical and mental wellbeing. 2. May all arahats be healthy,wealthy and free of danger. 3. May all non-arahats 4. May beings who have long body (snakes etc) 5. May beings who have short body (mouse etc) 6. May beings who have middle-length body (cat etc) 7. May beings who have large body (elephant etc) 8. May beings who have small body (ant etc) 9. May beings who have middle-sized body (cat etc) 10.May beings who have fat body (pig etc) 11.May beings who have thin body (sparrow etc) 12.May beings who have middle-fat body (cat etc) 13. May beings who have been seen before 14. May beings who have not seen before 15. May beings who are close to us 16. May beings who are distant from us 17. May beings who are grown up 18. May beings who are still not grown up all beings be healthy, wealthy and free of danger. May one not attack others and vice versa. The mother who has a single child will keep her child healthy so that she may not lose him or her. Loving-kindness also protect all beings as if all beings are it single child. All these mental exertions have to be bred or cultivated through out the day. That is both in day time and night time. That is 24 hours or as long as one is still conscious and is aware that he or she is still living. When stand, one has to stand with loving kindness. When sit, one has to sit with loving-kindness. When lying, one has to lie down with loving-kindness. And when walking, loving-kindness should be accompanied. When these contemplations or mental exertions or cultivation happen most of the time and this habbit is no more a difficult practise, then this stage may be equated with parikamma samadhi or preparatory concentration. But there is no uggaha nimitta like other 1st-jhaanika kammatthaana or other 22 meditation objects that can give rise to uggaha nimitta and patibhaaga nimitta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45754 From: nina Date: Thu May 19, 2005 0:17pm Subject: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk nilovg Hi James and all, James wrote: ------- N: James, your remark was the occasion for a good Dhamma discussion on this theme between Lodewijk and I, during dinner. ******** Lodewijk: James made a good point. -------------- Nina: yes, but in order to understand the unconditioned dhamma, should we not first understand conditioned dhammas, like seeing, visible object, etc? ----------- L: Understanding of the reality appearing now is important, but at the same time one should not lose sight of the ultimate aim, the third noble Truth. If only the present moment is stressed, one loses sight of the ultimate goal. There should be a kind of balance, that is the Middle Way. --------- N: We pay respect to the Dhamma, the second Jewel, and that is nibbaana. It reminds us that it is possible to reach it. We pay respect to the Sangha, we think with appreciation of those who reached nibbaana. This gives us confidence that it is possible also for us. ------ L: I think of the sutta I recited in the bus for our friends in India: <³Abandon evil, O monks! One can abandon evil, O monks!If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say ŒAbandon evil!¹ If this abandoning of evil would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of evil brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, Œabandon evil!¹ Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. If it were impossible to cultivate the good, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ If this cultivation of the good would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to cultivate it. But as the cultivation of the good brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ ² (Gradual Sayings Book of the twos, II, 9, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158.)> I was deeply touched while I recited this sutta. The Buddha said: It can be done. -------- N: Yes, Phil also finds this sutta very encouraging. But now, nibbaana is still a concept for us, we can only think of it, speculate about it. ----------- L: Yes, we know that we can only think about it, but it is still good to keep on considering the goal of our practice. --------- N: Nibbaana is so far away. ------ L: It is not good to think in that way. -------- N: Right, then we do not have enough confidence in the Path. We need the perfections to reach the further shore. It is a long way and we are weak. The perfections are the means to reach our goal. Kh. Sujin speaks about the further shore in her book on the Perfections. -------- L: Yes, we have to reach the further shore, this is said many times in the suttas. -------- N: Now we come again to the three rounds Kh. Sujin stresses so often: knowledge of the four noble Truths, the practice and the realization. The first one includes knowing what the four noble Truths are, having a firm understanding about them. This includes the third one, nibbaana. There should be firm understanding not only of the Path, but also of the goal, of what nibbaana is. ***** Nina. 45755 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 1:01pm Subject: Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk kelvin_lwin Hi Nina (Lodewijk), I must say I really identify with what Lodewijk had to say. It gave me chills as I was reading it. > N: Nibbaana is so far away. > ------ > L: It is not good to think in that way. > -------- > N: Right, then we do not have enough confidence in the Path. We need the > perfections to reach the further shore. It is a long way and we are weak. It also troubles me as part of the pessimistic message by only focusing on first 2 noble truths. From the texts we indeed are afforded a rarest of rare opportunity of not only being born a human but in a Buddha Sasana. We must indeed have done great things which only points to our potential. We also know we carry enough akusala baggage which can drag us to the lower realms anytime if we don't use this opportunity wisely. We have Buddha's guarantee that it can be done in this very life. - kel 45756 From: "Philip" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 4:44pm Subject: Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk philofillet Hi Nina, Lodwijk and all I really enjoy these Dhamma discussions between Nina and Lodwijk. Hopefully I will report on one between Naomi and I. > Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. (snip) > I was deeply touched while I recited this sutta. The Buddha said: It can be > done. > -------- > N: Yes, Phil also finds this sutta very encouraging. Ph: It's interesting. For me, this sutta encourages me to find value in small moments of mindfulness and understanding, encourages me to appreciate the moment more. Personally, I cannot understand nabbaana until I understand the first noble truth. Sometimes, I still find myself wondering why impermanence is dukkha! So you see, nibbaana *is* very far off and just the vaguest of concepts for a beginner like me. This is not the case for everyone. But one thing is for sure - we can begin to eradicate defilements here and now. That's what the Buddha's teaching in this sutta says to me, and it is very encouraging. > But now, nibbaana is still a concept for us, we can only think of it, > speculate about it. > ----------- > L: Yes, we know that we can only think about it, but it is still good to > keep on considering the goal of our practice. > --------- > N: Nibbaana is so far away. > ------ > L: It is not good to think in that way. Ph: But it is also not good to become attached to the concept of nibbaana as something to attain in this lifetime or else! Yes, we are fortunate to be born as humans in this time, that is true, we can keep that in mind, but can we be sure that we are not seeing nibbaana as an accomplishment or attainment that will allow us to feel more contented at the end of this one lifetime? In that case I think the motivation would be fear or clinging to this one lifetime's identity or something. Can we be sure there is not lobha or dosa at the root of our consideration of nibbana? I used the term "lusting for nibbana" in a tongue-in-cheek way, but for a person like me who is still awash in gratification in the khandas, and has not *really* come to understand the danger, I think it is premature to often reflect on the escape. First things first. (snip) > N: Now we come again to the three rounds Kh. Sujin stresses so often: > knowledge of the four noble Truths, the practice and the realization. > The first one includes knowing what the four noble Truths are, having a firm > understanding about them. This includes the third one, nibbaana. There > should be firm understanding not only of the Path, but also of the goal, of > what nibbaana is. Ph: Yes. I do appreciate these reminders. I have a tendency to skip chapters in books or posts here at DSG which deal with sublime attainments, but I will take this post as a reminder to reflect on them now and then, even as I continue to focus on understanding the first and second truths. And in the meantime, there will be many moments in which defilements can wear away a little, and wholesomeness can accumulate a little. There is cause for great encouragement and hope in knowing this. Metta, Phil 45757 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cosmologist lbidd2 Hi Tep, Tep: "Hi Larry and others - I am not sure what "scientific realism" really means to you." L: The logic of science. No kamma. When Tep dies that's the end of his continuity. How would you characterize annihilationism? Tep: "Causes and effects we have seen in real lives are nonlinear and quite sophisticated." L: This is tricky and I'm still thinking about it. B. Bodhi's Note 30, Nidaanavagga reads in part, "For in seeing the dependency of the world, when one sees the nontermination of the conditionally arisen phenomena owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the annihilationist view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur." I take this to mean that condition and conditioned arise at the same time. However, I think there is some wiggle room in what "at the same time" means. I'm not sure what the Buddha is pointing at here, but it does seem antithetical to the usual view of an efficient cause causing a subsequent effect. Tep: "Isn't self view dependent on both avijja and tanha, or mainly on avijja since tanha is caused primarily by avijja?" L: In the dependent arising formula self view is part of the clinging link (upaadaana). Clinging is conditioned by craving and craving is conditioned by feeling. At the beginning ignorance conditions volitional formations and this amounts to the same thing. If we divide dependent arising into three lives, the same things happen in each but they are explained differently. Maybe we could consider this three dimensions of the same events. Larry ps: "Realism" is usually considered to be any kind of view that there is an external reality. "Idealism" is the opposite, no directly knowable external reality. This isn't part of the debate in this sutta but people do debate whether dependent arising is truly realist, idealist, or something else. I would say most scientists are realists. Dependent arising could be either, depending on how you look at it, imo. 45758 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:17pm Subject: Vism.XIV,159 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch.XIV 159. II. (22) As regards the 'unprofitable', there are firstly seventeen associated with the first unprofitable consciousness rooted in greed (22), that is to say, thirteen constant given in the texts as such and four or-what-ever-states. Herein, the thirteen given as such are these: contact (i), volition (ii), applied thought (iii), sustained thought (iv), happiness (v), energy (vi), life (vii), concentration (viii), (xxxvii) consciencelessness, (xxxviii) shamelessness, (xxxix) greed, (xl) delusion, (xli) wrong view. The four or-what-ever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), (xlii) agitation, attention (xxx). 45759 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 5:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Cosmologist buddhistmedi... Hi, Larry - Thank you for this interesting discussion. I think I have learned something useful -- but I am not so sure how useful it is. Let's keep the communication door open. Respectfully, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Tep: "Hi Larry and others - > I am not sure what "scientific realism" really means to you." > > L: The logic of science. No kamma. When Tep dies that's the end of his > continuity. How would you characterize annihilationism? > > Tep: "Causes and effects we have seen in real lives are nonlinear and > quite sophisticated." > > L: This is tricky and I'm still thinking about it. B. Bodhi's Note 30, > Nidaanavagga reads in part, "For in seeing the dependency of the world, > when one sees the nontermination of the conditionally arisen phenomena > owing to the nontermination of their conditions, the annihilationist > view, which might otherwise arise, does not occur." > > I take this to mean that condition and conditioned arise at the same > time. However, I think there is some wiggle room in what "at the same > time" means. I'm not sure what the Buddha is pointing at here, but it > does seem antithetical to the usual view of an efficient cause causing a > subsequent effect. > > Tep: "Isn't self view dependent on both avijja and tanha, or mainly on > avijja since tanha is caused primarily by avijja?" > > L: In the dependent arising formula self view is part of the clinging > link (upaadaana). Clinging is conditioned by craving and craving is > conditioned by feeling. At the beginning ignorance conditions volitional > formations and this amounts to the same thing. If we divide dependent > arising into three lives, the same things happen in each but they are > explained differently. Maybe we could consider this three dimensions of > the same events. > > Larry > ps: "Realism" is usually considered to be any kind of view that there is > an external reality. "Idealism" is the opposite, no directly knowable > external reality. This isn't part of the debate in this sutta but people > do debate whether dependent arising is truly realist, idealist, or > something else. I would say most scientists are realists. Dependent > arising could be either, depending on how you look at it, imo. 45760 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 19, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Cosmologist lbidd2 Hi Tep, The only way I know how to use this sort of thing is to contemplate it occasionally. You probably have these two kinds of theories in your accumulations, a soul theory in the form of self view and an anti-kamma theory in the form of a sense of moving in one direction straight ahead rather than in circles. This sutta says if there is understanding of dependent arising then the anti-kamma theory doesn't seem reasonable. If there is understanding of dependent cessation then soul theories don't seem reasonable. If you understand that desire leads to dissatisfaction and more desire, then that is kamma, moving in circles. If you understand that "you" are based on desire, then the cessation of desire is the cessation of "you". This also applies to any other kind of soul theory you might imagine, such as Christianity or Vedanta. Even though these systems are based on a profound sense of virtue, they are also based on desire. Larry ------------------------- Tep: "Thank you for this interesting discussion. I think I have learned something useful -- but I am not so sure how useful it is. Let's keep the communication door open." 45761 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:41pm Subject: Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk buddhatrue Hi Nina (Phil and Kelvin and Lodewijk), Thanks for sharing this dialogue with Lodewijk. It was very interesting. I was happy to see that Lodewijk grasped immediately the meaning of my statement and why I made it; and that you raised your objections in a logical manner and yet remained open-minded: ultimately to share the dialogue with the group. Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! I believe that we should always keep our mind on the goal: nibbana. If we don't, our practice won't be correct or whole. We need to adjust our practice and evaluate our insights based on that goal: are we getting closer or farther from the goal of nibbana? Doing this will also add an energy and enthusiasm to our practice because our motivation will be internal (individual enlightenment) rather than external (other's approval, daily coping, entertainment, etc.). Now, some people say, "Oh, I can't possibly comprehend nibbana" or "Nibbana is just too far off for me", but those are just the defilements talking. That is Mara doing his best to keep us ensnared in samsara. At a gut level we all know what nibbana is: Nibbana is ultimate fulfillment; Nibbana is freedom from craving; Nibbana is everlasting peace; Nibbana is freedom from fear and anxiety; Nibbana is reaching the goal of the Holy Life. We know what nibbana is or we wouldn't be Buddhists. It is Mara who wants us to think that we don't know or to think that it is an unreasonable goal. Just remember, the Buddha knew what nibbana is before he even became enlightened, or he wouldn't have sought that goal. No one else was there to tell his that nibbana was possible, he just knew. And his fellow seekers also knew; and if they knew, we know. The Satipatthana Sutta (Longer Discourse) directs reflection to be on the Four Noble Truths- the Four, not just the one, and then the two, etc. but the Four together. If we don't reflect on the Four together in our daily practice, then our view and practice will be lopsided, as Lodewijk noted. Metta, James 45762 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 19, 2005 9:40pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 199 - Enthusiasm/piiti (q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) contd] We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Part II, Kindred Sayings about Feeling, Chapter III, §29, Purified and free from carnal taint) about “zest”, píti, that is carnal, píti that is not carnal and píti that is still less carnal: * "And what, monks, is the zest that is carnal? There are five sensual elements, monks. What five? Objects cognizable by the eye, objects desirable, pleasant, delightful and dear, passion-fraught, inciting to lust… There are objects cognizable by the ear… the nose… the tongue… There are things cognizable by the body, tangibles, desirable, pleasant… These, monks, are the five sensual elements. Whatsoever zest, monks, arises owing to these five, that is called “zest that is carnal”." * We then read about the “ zest that is not carnal”, which is píti accompanying the jhånacitta. At the moment of jhånacitta carnal zest is temporarily subdued, one is not infatuated with the five “sensual elements”. We read about the “zest that is still less carnal” than the other kinds: * "…And what monks, is the zest that is still less carnal than the other? That zest which arises in a monk who has destroyed the åsavas(1), who can look upon his heart as released from lust— that zest, monks, is called “the zest that is still less carnal than the other”." * The same is said about pleasure, indifference and “release”, which can be carnal, not carnal and still less carnal. The term “still less carnal” refers to the arahat who has eradicated all forms of attachment so that it never arises again. This sutta reminds us again to be aware of the realities appearing through the different doorways, one at a time. We are usually so absorbed in people and things that we forget that they are not realities, only concepts. It is not a person which is experienced through the eyes, but only a kind of rúpa which is visible object and does not last. We are infatuated with the objects we experience and we do not realize when there is “píti which is carnal”. Píti which is carnal can arise on account of all the objects we experience through the six doors. The sutta illustrates how different píti is when it arises with different types of citta. Píti is conditioned by the accompanying dhammas and, in its turn, it conditions the accompanying dhammas. Píti is saòkhåra dhamma, not self. We may find it difficult to know when enthusiasm is wholesome and when it is unwholesome, but through mindfulness of it when it appears its characteristic can be known more precisely. *** 1) Åsavas or “cankers” are a group into which defilements are classified. ***** [Ch.11 Enthusiasm (piiti) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 45763 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:01pm Subject: Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta sarahprocter... (This series of ‘Musings’ are based on recent discussions in Bangkok with A.Sujin) ***** Dear Kel, Ven Dhammanando, Nina & all, We had some very detailed discussions before on the topic of: prior attainments and stagtes of insight of the Bodhisatta and chief disciples in previous lives. In particular, we discussed whether they had previously attained the 11th stage of sankharupekha nana [sa”nkaarupekkhaa-~naa.na - knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas], the last stage of insight before anuloma nana (adaptation knowledge), which is followed by gotrabhu nana (change of lineage) and then magga and phala nana (path and fruition knowledge) in succession in the same mind door process.* You provided a lot of very helpful information and quotes from the Pali texts in support of both the Bodhisatta and chief disciples having formerly reached the stage of sankarupekkha nana. This was based on the comments in various texts about insight being developed up to the stage of anuloma.** After further consideration and lengthy discussion however, I’m still not fully convinced of the conclusions you draw from these passages in the light of other aspects of the teachings and other texts. For example, one of the passages we considered here before was the one concerning Jotipala in the commentary to MN81, the Ghatikara Sutta. In brief, Jotipala was the Bodhisatta, born as a Brahmin in the time of Kassapa Buddha. Ghatikara, a potter, was his friend who invited him to visit the Buddha. Jotipala refused to go, rudely asking ‘what is the use of seeing that bald-pated recluse?’ Ghatíkara insisted, and one day, after they had bathed together in the river, seized Jotipala by the hair as he pleaded once more. Jotipala decided to join his friend and after hearing the Buddha preach, Jotipala became a monk. The discussion concerns whether Jotipala attained sankarupkekkha nana. Ven Dhammanando, quoted the following, which he translated from the commentary to MN81: *** >”What then, Aananda, did the brahmin youth Jotipaala do, having gone forth, obtaining the going forth and the full acceptance in the presence of Kassapa, the Blessed One, Arahant and Sammaasambuddha? [He did] that which should be done by Bodhisattas. For Bodhisattas go forth in the presence of Buddhas, and having gone forth are not like inferior beings who have dropped their horns. Having become well-established in the fourfold purity of virtue, learned the Tipi.taka -- the Buddha-word, undertaken the thirteen austerities, and entered the forest, they fulfil the duty [of maintaining their meditation subject] while going out [for alms] and coming back, perform the dhamma of a sama.na, and cause insight to grow up to conformity knowledge, [but] stopping [there] they do not undertake any striving for the sake of the path and fruit. This is just what Jotipaala did.”< *** From this passage it would seem to be suggesting that in Jotipala insight grew ‘up to conformity knowledge’, (S: i.e. up to sankarupekkha nana, ‘yaava’ in the region of anuloma as explained before). However, perhaps, when it says ‘this is just what Jotipaala did’ it is referring to the lines above about going forth and then as all Bodhisattas did, learning the Tipitaka and developing insight to the highest levels before becoming a Samma-sambuddha in the final life. In other words, it may mean the stages of insights were not developed in that lifetime as Jotipala. Why do I think like this? a) In Jataka 522, which is also about the former life as Jotipala, we read that he was destined to rebirth in hell. He had great skill in archery. It says “‘My skill’, he thought, ‘in the beginning is evidently death, in the middle it is the enjoyment of sin, and in the end it is rebirth in hell: for the destruction of life and excessive carelessness in sinful enjoyment causes rebirth in hell.” (In the later Jataka about Temiya, it also refers to the Bodhisatta’s earlier life in Ussada Hell. It was the recollection of having suffered in hell for eighty thusand years prior to his life as a Deva , determined not to become king and acted mute.) This is significant because we read in the Visuddhimagga that having attained the 2nd stage of insight (paccaya-pariggaha ~naa.na), one is referred to as a lesser (cula) sotapanna with a fixed destiny in heavenly planes. In other words, even on the attainment of the second stage, there will be no rebirth in hell planes as I understand. This second stage is the comprehension of the causal conditions of namas and rupas*. It is also called ‘purification by crossing over doubt’ when panna understands the dependency on conditions of nama and rupa when they arise and how they are devoid of self. In the Vism X1X, 26, it says: *** “When a man practicing insight has become possessed of this knowledge (paccaya-pariggaha ~naa.na), he has found comfort in the Buddhas’ Dispensation, he has found a foothold, he is certain of his destiny, he is called a ‘lesser stream-enterer’. ‘So would a bhikkhu overcome His doubts, then ever minfully Let him discern conditions both Of mind and matter thoroughly.” *** Also, in the Alagadduupama sutta (Snake Simile), transl by Nyanaponika, it says: “Monks, in this Teaching that was so well proclaimed by me and is plain, open, explicit and free of patchwork, those who have simply faith in me, simply love for me, are ^all destined for heaven.^ The commentary note to this passage as given by Nyanaponika adds: “Those who have simply faith in me’: This refers to persons devoted to the practice of Insight-meditation (Vipassaka-puggalaa). When monks are seated after having got a firm footing in Insight–meditation, there arises in them a unique and fully absorbing faith in, and love for, the Master of the Ten Powers (i.e the Buddha), (Sub-Cy: because in pursuance of their Insight-meditation they have received proof that ‘The Dhamma is well-proclaimed’). Through that faith and love they are as if taken by the hand and transported to heaven. They are said to be of ^assured-destiny (niyatagatika)^ i.e. of the final attainment of ...Nibbana. The Elder Monks of old say that such Bhikkhus are Lesser Stream-enterers (cuu.la or baala-sotaapanna; Vism 703).” *** So from these commentary passages, it would suggest that a Cula sotapanna, i.e someone who has attained to the 2nd stage of insight is of ^assured destiny ‘niyatagatika’, is assured of higher rebirths and will not be reborn in hell realms.^ For the sotapanna-to-be, there will be conditions to attain the higher stages and there will never be a return to woeful planes as I understand it. b) If the bodhisatta and key disciples had attained high stages of insight from listening to a previous Buddha, I believe they would have become savakas or disciples of that Buddha rather than the self-proclaimed, Samma-sambuddha and disciples of Gotama Buddha. So if Jotipala had become a cula sotapanna he would have become the savaka of the Buddha Kassapa and it would have been impossible for him to become a samma-sambuddha. c) We read in the other Pali extracts about the ‘prior factor’ or effort referring to the higher stages to become a Buddha, but does this have to mean they were already attained in that life? We read about developing satipatthana up to anuloma nana and being ready to attain insights, but this doesn’t necessarily mean at that time, as I understand the passages. It may mean ‘become established’, so that the conditions are ready in order to attain the stages of insight up to sankharupekkha, anuloma and gotrabhu in the last life when they have to be fully developed. Otherwise, the savakas would have become arahants in that life, I believe. It still seems most likely to me that sankharupekkha nana would certainly lead to gotrabhu and magga. That person has almost become enlightened and it would seem most unlikely, even impossible perhaps, to have reached that level of vipassana nana and not become enlightened in that life because the vipassana is so great, greater even than the insight which clearly sees the characteristics of all conditioned dhammas. It is the degree of panna which conditions the departure from the state of worldling when there is nothing left to desire in the world. There has already been nibbida nana (dispassion) when the futility of all namas and rupas has been clearly seen too. In other words, there is already the ‘turning away’ towards enlightenment, I understand, when there is nothing left to desire in the world, ready for nibbana to be experienced. If it weren’t like this, what would be the use of having such insight? d) We also need to question what is meant by the development of all the paramis, with the attainement of the last one, dana, as told in the Vessantara Jataka. It seems unlikely that before this last life the bodhisatta was already a cula sotapanna. He had to develop all the virtues, ready to be enlightened by himself. So, while he had developed all the paramis and a lot of satipatthana over countless lifetimes, these ‘ingredients’ were all being prepeared ready for all the vipassana nanas to arise in his final life as I understand. For other disciples like Sariputta or Bahiya, it would be similar. The ingredients were all prepared so that when they heard the Truths, all the stages could be realized in rapid succession. We joked that this is like a TV cook who lays out all the ingredients perfectly in preparation so that the dish can be quickly concocted when the cameras roll. The paramis are the ingredients, perfectly prepared, ready to become the samma-sambuddha. ***** In conclusion, I’ve considered these aspects a lot and my idea to date is still that stages of insight, especially high stages of insight, were not attained by the Bodhisatta and the key disciples in previous lives for the reasons mentioned here and earlier. However, I think it’s a difficult topic and one unlikely to be resolved. How many lives have we listened and developed wisdom before and to what degree? Who knows? I think that we really have very limited knowledge of the teachings even theoretically and of course it is only by following the path that difficult aspects will become clearer. Even whilst reflecting, the various doubts, attachments, thinking and views can be known as sankhara dhammas too. Any corrections or comments are welcome! With metta and respect, Sarah *1.knowledge of the difference between naama and ruupa, naama-ruupa-pariccheda-ñaa.na 2.discerning conditions for naama and ruupa, paccaya-pariggaha- ñaa.na 3.comprehension by groups, sammasana ñaa.na knowledge of arising and falling away 4. udayabbaya ñaa.na knowledge of dissolution 5.bhanga ñaa.na knowledge of terror 6.bhaya ñaa.na knowledge of danger 7.aadiinava ñaa.na knowledge of dispassion, 8.nibbidaa ñaa.na knowledge of desire for deliverance 9.mucitukamyataa ñaa.na knowledge of reflexion 10.pa.tisankhaa ñaa.na knowledge of equanimity about conditioned dhammas 11.sa”nkhaarupekkhaa ñaa.na adaptation or conformity knowledge 12.anuloma ñaa.na change-of-lineage knowledge 13.gotrabhuu ñaa.na path knowledge 14.magga ñaa.na fruition knowledge 15.phala ñaa.na reviewing knowledge 16.paccavekkha.na ñaa.na ***** **Bhikkhu Dhammanando’s posts with translations from the Pali textual sources http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42544 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42544 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42602 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/42575 ============================================================== 45764 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu May 19, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo sukinderpal Dear Htoo, > >Old Sukin: > When on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has > great chance of developing not only the understanding of the > characteristic of individual dhammas, but also the knowledge of > paccaya. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > This is totally wrong idea. It is new delusion. It is subgrandiose > delusion. > > > :-)) Please explain your reason for stating this, in detail if > possible. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > It is evident in the sentences that there is idea of self that is > sakkaaya-ditthi. Sakkaaya-ditthi is wrong idea. Sukin> Would I know it if at the time there was as you say, Sakkaaya-ditthi or wrong idea? ;-) Perhaps there was. But how did you infer this from the above statement? ================================= Htoo: > It is delusion. In clinical psychology there are many delusions. But this is new one > and it is new delusion. And it is quite close to grandiose delusion. Sukin> You are using the conclusions of clinical psychology to teach someone who is only interested in Dhamma, Dhamma? ;-) ================================ Htoo: > Grandiose delusions are wrong beliefs that oneself is better than > anyone else. But when the delusion in question is analysed, it is not > like a typical grandiose delusion. But it has the quality of > grandiosity. So it is subgrandiose delusion. Sukin> Is this putting someone down in order to score some debate points? Or are you trying to teach me a lesson? Let me tell you some of what was going on in my mind. I had not even a moment of thinking about "my" understanding, but yes, there were flashes of a mental picture of Nina and comparing her with you. However this probably lasted no more than 2 seconds, the rest of the time I was thinking in terms of conditions (in a conventional sense) without reference to anyone at all. So no, I don't think `grandiose delusion' etc. applies here. You know Htoo, the reason I asked for details was because I thought that you were referring to my idea of "not trying to control dhammas as having a better chance of understanding conditionality" as being delusional. I had no idea that you were referring to the delusion about `my own understanding'. But never mind, mistakes can happen, the internet is indeed not the best medium for such discussions. ;-) ============================ Htoo: > These details will suffice your thirst of wanting to know what is > what. > > 'when on the other hand one does not try to control dhammas, one has > great chance of ---' > > You mean 'when you do not try to control dhammas you have greater > chance of --- than you try to control dhammas' ? Sukin> Dhammas rise and fall due to conditions beyond control. Sati and panna are two such dhammas. When these arise by conditions the object is known with varying degrees of clarity. With development, not only the characteristics are known, but also other conditions can become apparent to panna. On the other hand, when there is the `intention' to observe, it cannot be satipatthana. This being either motivated by lobha or ditthi, and these create their own `illusion' which is then mistaken to be direct observation of realities. Metta, Sukinder 45765 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi James, Sorry for the delay. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: As I understand, the bodhipakkhiya dhammas refer to various > cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) which are classified in > different ways, > stressing different aspects, in order to explain the qualities which > have to be developed in order for the conditions for enlightenment to > be realized. These are ultimate realities (dhammas). > > James: I still don't see the connection. It seems that `dhammas' as > it relates to aspects of the suttas is different than `dhammas' as it > relates to the Abhidhamma. Here you aren't really saying that the > Bodhipakkhiya Dhammas are listed in the Abhidhamma, you are saying > that they have corresponding cittas and cetasikas listed in the > Abhidhamma- and that isn't the same thing. But really, this is a minor > issue that I'm not keenly interested in. ... S: Right, that’s probably why I didn’t rush back come to think of it! I think I referred to a whole section of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha on the bodhipakkhiya dhammas where they are clearly laid out (ch V11, Compendium of Categories). So they are listed in the Abhidhamma. In the Vibhanga itself (2nd book of the Abhidhamma), all these dhammas are listed. For example, 522: “ ‘Practising the practice of the development of enlightenment states’ means: Therein what are enlightenment states? The seven enlightenment factors (viz,) mindfulness-enlightenment-factor, truth-, energy-, zest-, calmness-, concentration-, equanimity-. These are called enlightenment states. Thus these enlightenment states he pursues, develops, repeats. Therefore this is called ‘practising the practice of the development of enlightenment states.’ All the other groupings are included too. I don’t see any difference in the suttas or the Abhidhamma, but you’re welcome to give me an example. Of course, ‘dhammas’ can have different meanings (see ‘Dhammas – different meanings’ in U.P.), but usually they refer to paramattha dhammas. [“bodhipakkhikaana.m dhammaana.m bhaavanaanuyogam anuyutto” = devoted to the practice (bhavana) of the development of the states (dhamma) partaking of enlightenment.] .... > Sarah: I think the chapter on `The Factors leading to Enlightenment', > (ch 1, Part 1V, The Development of Insight), about p.186 in A.Sujin's > "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas", transl by Nina is very clear and you > might be interested to take a look. (Abhidhamma.org). .... > James: I will get to this part later, but this note of yours was the > condition for me to start reading some of K. Sujin's writings on > Abhidhamma.org and it has been quite an eye-opener. I have been > reading her praising the benefits of meditation.... .... S: I don’t think there is anyone here who has not praised the benefits of bhavana (meditation/mental development). We all know that without bhavana and specifically without the development of satipatthana, there will be no Enlightenment Factors developed. The disagreement is *only* on the specifics of what bhavana and particularly satipatthana are. .... >and the purposeful > radiation of metta toward others .... S:She would never agree with those words:-). I think the passage you referred to mentioned ‘extending metta’. This was a translation. The meaning is showing or developing metta to others which she always encourages of course. Like now, when we speak with metta, others can appreciate it and ‘sense’ it perhaps.On the otherhand, they may not, depending on accumulations. They may assume the words are said with aversion instead!! Sometimes by ‘radiating metta’ people have the idea that they can sit at home and ‘radiate’ it to people in Afghanistan or Iraq or somewhere and that those people can benefit or somehow feel it. She never agrees with these kinds of ideas about metta. .... (even how `pouring water' can help to > transfer merit to the deceased- a rather Thai influenced ceremony). .... S: Extending merit is one of the 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases of meritorious deeds. Nothing is ‘transferred’ . Pouring water is a custom that I seem to recall is even mentioned in the suttas and like all other customs can be followed with right or wrong view, like paying respects in a temple, walking around a stupa three times and so on. .... > Maybe Htoo is right when he says that some here misconstrue her > teachings and misrepresent her?? .... S: Her response would be to check the Tipitaka for oneself and to develop one’s own understanding. We are all here to study the Buddha’s word and meaning and to pay our respects to the Triple Gem. I think we’re all just studying, reflecting, developing understanding and sharing what we can according to our limited knowledge. Metta, Sarah ===== 45766 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 1:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah's Elaboration on Anatta [was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 177 ] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, I love the way you set out the discussions with ‘agreed points’ etc. Very helpful. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Agreed Points > -------------------- > > # Because the 5 aggregates are anatta, therefore they are subject to > disease, and they cannot be controlled according to one's wishes. The > logical deduction that follows is that it would be wrong to have the > following viewpoint on each of the five aggregates : 'This is mine, this > is > I, this is my self'. Such a self view is a miccha-ditthi. > # Clinging can be either on right view or a wrong view. > # Miccha-ditthi is a khandha – it is included in sankhara khandha. ... S: So far so good. One minor point – ‘Clinging can be either with or without wrong view’. It cannot be with right view. Perhaps you mean, ‘Clinging can be to any object, including right view or wrong view’?? ... > An Unresolved issue > ------------------------------ > Sarah: The concepts of self or other ideas are imagined pannatti and > not real. Therefore, there is nothing to be taken as self, and self is > thus > an illusion. > > Tep: By having the belief that there is no self (self is not real, not > existing), isn't that an extreme view? The two estremes are the view > of 'no self' and the view that self exists. .... S: I think you’ve changed my words a little:). The Buddha taught that all dhammas are anatta and that apart from these dhammas, nothing else exists. This is not an extreme view, it is the truth. Anything other than these (paramatha dhammas) are illusory or conceptual only. As Larry said (I think), the middle path is that of dependent origination, of understanding dhammas as conditioned and anatta. The extreme view you refer to of annihilationism is the view that there is no kamma, no cause and result and that there are no conditions for life to continue after death as I read it. This is quite the opposite from understanding dhammas as anatta. [For the record, Phil, if I refer anytime to ‘no self’, not self’ or‘not- self’, I am simply referring to khandhas as anatta without any distinction between them, though I understand you or others may make distinctions. Apart from the khandhas (and nibbana), no other realities (dhammas) exist.] ... > > The Dialogue Continues > ------------------------------------ > > S: ... the pannatti (concepts) about self or computer or body or > whatever > else, are not real at all. The self or computer cannot be seen or heard > or touched, they can only be imagined. Please let me know if this is > still > not clear. > > T: It is not clear, Sarah, because everybody else will tell you that a > computer and a body can be seen or heard of, and both can be > touched. I assume that you also believe that money is a pannatti and > so it is not real!! But still you depend on it, and if someone steals > all > your money you would be very sad. How can you then say that money > is a concept? :-) .... S: This is the really important point now in this discussion between us. Thank you for the feedback. Let me ask you the following: 1. When you look in front of you, what is really seen? 2. When you hear a noise, what is really heard? 3. When you touch the computer, what is experienced? 4. Again, when you open your wallet, what is seen? 5. When you take out the money, what is felt? 6. If there was no sanna marking and remembering objects from birth, would there be any idea of computer and money? 7. Yes, if someone stole my money I’d be sad. Can there not be attachment to concepts? .... > T: Sincerely, Sarah, the fished-out stuff (*) does not indicate that you > understand why the view on " no self " and the view on "there is a self" > [non-existence and existence views] are two extremes. Please read > the following excerpts to review the concept of extreme views. > > [Thanissaro] Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: > Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha > never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with > the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to > point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then > to recommend dropping them. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn022-tb0.html .... S: I’d rather just discuss the khandhas:) Honestly, I’ve only read brief extracts of TB’s that friends have posted here and never been very inclined to read more. See Ken H’s comments on TB’s views on anatta in which it’s suggested a lurking self remains, I believe. (Anatta- ATI in U.P. I believe, or he’ll happily give you a full set of links again). ... > [lisah]one time the Buddha was asked point-blank if there is a self, he > refused to answer, on the grounds that either a Yes or a No to the > question would lead to extreme forms of wrong view that block the path > to awakening. A Yes or a qualified No would lead to attachment: you'd > keep clinging to a sense of self however you defined it. An unqualified > No would lead to bewilderment and alienation, for you'd feel that your > innermost sense of intrinsic worth had been denied. ... S: Again, Ken H recently responded to similar comments and notes on the sutta. I don’t want to scare Lisa off by picking up all her points, but as you keep raising them, I’ll look at the sutta again: > > [MN 2] I have a self... I have no self... It is precisely by means of > self that > I perceive self... It is precisely by means of self that I perceive > not-self... > It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self... or... This > very > self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening > of > good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, > eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. > This > is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of > views, > a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the > uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & > death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not > freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. .... S: Nanamoli/Bodhi transl with comments interspersed: “This is how he attends unwisely: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what did I become in the past? Shall I be in the future?.................Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where will it go?” ... S: I think the doubts and wrong views of self behind all these qus are apparent already. .... “When he attends unwisely in this way, one of six views arises in him.” ... Translator note: “of these six views, the first two represent the simple antinomy of eternalism and annihilationism; the view that ‘no self exists for me’ is *not* the non-self doctrine of the Buddha, but the materialist view that identifies the individual with the body and thus holds that there is no personal continuity beyond death.” S: As we read elsewhere in suttas. all wrong views stem from a belief in self including annihilationist views. .... “The view ‘self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘no self exists for me’ arises in him as true and established; or the view ‘I perceive self with self’ arises in him as true and established....”I perceive not self with self’....’I perceive self with not-self...’..’it is this self of mine that speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions; but this self of mine is permanent, everlasting,eternal, not subject to change, and it will endure as long as eternity.’ This speculative view, bhikkhus, is called the thicket of views...etc”. ... S: So we see these are all various forms of sakkaya ditthi. When someone says ‘no self exists for me’ here, it is still the ‘me’ or self that exists now and with the idea as I mentioned before that there are no conditioned dhammas, no kamma, no rebirth. In other words, it is quite the opposite of what we mean when we refer to dhammas as being anatta, conditioned, beyond control and so on as I think you suggested. At the end of this section of the sutta, we read that attending wisely refers to the contemplation and insight of the Four Noble Truths. The translators add that the commentary, MA “says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight (vipassanaa), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena [S: namas and rupas] comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (aramma.na). Path-knowledge performs four functions regarding the four truths: it fully understands the truth of suffering, abandons the origin of suffering, realizes the cessation of suffering, and develops the way to the cessation of suffering.” .... S: I understand this to be stressing that it is by understanding namas and rupas only that wrong views can be eradicated and the Four Noble Truths realized. This is the development of vipassana bhavana. A little later, exactly the same enlightenment factors starting with mindfulness are given to be developed as I quoted from the Abhidhamma. And it goes on to say: “While taints, vexation, and fever might arise in one who does not develop these enlightenment factors, there are no taints, vexation, or fever in one who develops them.” I’ll look forward to your next summary of agreed points, unresolved and continued dialogue, Tep. Metta, Sarah ======== 45767 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 2:16am Subject: Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: Sorry for the delay. James: No problem. Sarah: All the other groupings are included too. I don't see any difference in the suttas or the Abhidhamma, but you're welcome to give me an example. James: No, that's okay. I will concede that they are listed at one point in the compendium known as the Abhidhamma. Again, this isn't a major issue to me. Sarah: I don't think there is anyone here who has not praised the benefits of bhavana (meditation/mental development). We all know that without bhavana and specifically without the development of satipatthana, there will be no Enlightenment Factors developed. The disagreement is *only* on the specifics of what bhavana and particularly satipatthana are. James: I don't know what you're getting so defensive about or what this long, pedantic response has to do with the issue I raised. Let me be very specific: I am not convinced that the viewpoint of K. Sujin matches, or agrees with, the viewpoint of DSG Management. When I read her words, translated from the spoken Thai, I get a very different picture of K. Sujin than what is presented in this group. As I have said on numerous occasions, K. Sujin should become a member of this group and speak for herself. I understand that she has a large following in Thailand, her own radio show, he own Dhamma center, and her own published dhamma materials; the Sangha in Thailand respects her and the people respect her, and when I read her words I respect her. But when you, Sarah, talk about what she supposedly teaches, I not only don't respect her but I have real fear that she is doing damage to the dhamma! I can't explain the discrepancy now, but maybe in the future I will be able to. Maybe I will have to go to Thailand one day and talk to K. Sujin for myself (without anyone over my shoulder trying to explain to me "what she really means" ;-). Sarah: She would never agree with those words:-). James: Oh, here we go again, "K. Sujin According to Sarah"- playing at your local theatres everywhere! ;-) Sarah: I think the passage you referred to mentioned `extending metta'. This was a translation. James: So? Sarah: The meaning is showing or developing metta to others which she always encourages of course. James: No, this is not the meaning!!!!!!! She was explaining that if someone's citta has enough metta it can be extended to others for their benefit. Sarah, you have interpreted her meaning to match what you WANT her to mean. I have no such wants because I don't care if she agrees with me or disagrees with me- I don't wish to hook my wagon to her star. Sarah: Sometimes by `radiating metta' people have the idea that they can sit at home and `radiate' it to people in Afghanistan or Iraq or somewhere and that those people can benefit or somehow feel it. She never agrees with these kinds of ideas about metta. James: Well, I wouldn't agree with that either in the manner you have cruelly trivialized it. The radiating or extending of metta isn't going to be able to stop wars in Afghanistan or Iraq, and the Buddha didn't teach it for that purpose. The Buddha taught the extending of metta as a form of protection and/or the development of jhana. Anyway, could you, or someone, please explain to me what the big deal is with this issue? Does it just seem too `magical' so it turns you off? Do you think it reinforces the idea of a self? What is the problem? There seems to be a lot of denial going on with this issue and I'm not quite sure why. Sarah: Extending merit is one of the 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases of meritorious deeds. Nothing is `transferred' . Pouring water is a custom that I seem to recall is even mentioned in the suttas and like all other customs can be followed with right or wrong view, like paying respects in a temple, walking around a stupa three times and so on. James: Pouring water is mentioned in what sutta? If you can pull out your "10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases or meritorious deeds", surely you can tell me the sutta the custom of pouring water comes from ;-)). Sarah: Her response would be to check the Tipitaka for oneself and to develop one's own understanding. James: This issue doesn't have to do with how she teaches the dhamma, it has to do with how DSG Management presents her teachings to others. I don't know what her response would be, but maybe one day I will find out- for myself. Metta, James 45768 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.] sarahprocter... Hi Tep, (Htoo & all), --- Tep Sastri wrote: > My earlier story of a personal walking meditation is "meditation while > walking" in which the mindfulness and the thorough comprehension > (sampajanna) are with the "body in the body" ( walking, stopping, > standing and turning back – iriyapatha <...> > Sarah (to Htoo in # 45575): Pajaanaati is therefore referring to the > understanding and awareness of the particular characteristics > (lakkhana) of namas and rupas appearing, not awareness of ideas > about walking and so on . <...> .... S: I’ve read and considered your further comments in response to these, Tep. I appreciate that this is a sensitive topic at the heart of what we consider to be bhavana and one you’ve considered carefully. Here are a few more brief points – I hope there will be some agreement at least. 1. As you mention above, it is ‘meditation while walking’ and so on, not meditation or mindfulness of walking. Vibhanga 508 “..he, in approaching and departing, acts with awareness; in looking ahead and in looking around he acts with awarenss....in bending and in stretching....in bearing the outer robe, the alms-bowl and the under robe....eating..drinking...chewing..tasting..obeying the calls of nature...walking..standing...sitting...sleeping...waking...talking...being silent...etc”. 2. As it was just stressed in the commentary to MN2, insight is into namas and rupas. Note that kaaya in this context refers to rupas. So the Satipatthana sutta is also encouraging the development of awareness and insight into namas and rupas whilst walking, stretching, eating, developing samatha and so on as I read it. 3. The awareness (sati) is developed with understanding (sampajanna) to know the various namas and rupas, leading to vipassana (insight) and eventually the development of the enlightenment factors. This applies equally to those who have already developed samatha to jhana level. ..... T:> So, Sarah, it seems that your obsessed self-view jumped out again, > when you wrote : "Indeed it is these very ideas of postures that cover > up the understanding of realities as anicca the clinging to an idea of > these postures as being real and at one's command that reinforces the > idea of atta." [S: anicca should probably read dukkha here to 'conform' with the text that follows]. ... S: Instead of giving more of my ‘obsessed’ views then, let me add a couple of quotes on this topic of postures (iriyaapatha) from the commentary to the Vibhanga, transl as ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (PTS): *** 242: “For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious...........but here it should be understood that he taught it by means of both impermanence and pain. “But it is owing to not keeping in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear? Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati). “The characteristic of pain does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating continuous oppression and owing to its being concealed by the postures (iriyaapatha).” [S: rather than being aware of postures, it is the idea of postures that conceals the truths about the elements as dukkha.. When there is awareness, there’s no idea of posture at all] “The characteristic of no-self does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating the resolution into the various elements (naanaadhaatu-vinibbhoga) owing to its being concealed by compactness." [S: When there is an idea of ‘wholes’ such as posture, chariot or self, there is no understanding of dhatus (elements) and no way to understand anatta.] “But when continuity is dissected by laying hold of rise and fall, the characteristic of impermanence appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When the postures are exposed (ugghaa.tita) by keeping in mind continual oppression, the characteristic of pain appears in accordance with its true essential nature. When resolving of the compact (ghanavinibbhoga) is effected by resolution into the various elements, the characteristic of no-self appears in accordance with its true essential nature. “Herein, the five aggregates (pa~ncakkhandha) are impermanent. Why? Because they rise and fall and change, or be cause of their absence after having been. Risea nd fall and change are the characteristic of impermanence, or mode of alteration (aakaaravikaara) called absence after having been. "But those same five aggregates are painful because of the words ‘what is impermanent is painful’ (S iv 1). Why? Because of continual oppression. The mode of being continually oppressed is the characteristic of pain. "But the same five aggregates are no-self because of the words ‘what is painful is no-self’ (S iv 1). Why? Because there is no exercising power over them. The mode of insusceptibility to having power exercised over them is the characteristic of no-self.” [S: ‘no exercising power over them’, neither the khandhas or any ideas about them, such as postures, are at one’s command]. ***** Tep, I hope this clarifies a little. I'll be glad to hear further comments from you, Htoo or anyone else. ***** Metta, Sarah p.s we also discussed these same points in India with A.Sujin. See Nina's helpful summary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/41391 extract: "There are three ways of wrong thinking that prevent us from seeing the truth. Clinging to the postures of walking, standing, sitting and lying down prevent us from realizing the arising and falling away of the rúpas of the body. We think, for example, of ourselves as sitting. It is saññå which remembers that we are sitting, but we do not realize that what we take for the body which sits consists of rúpas that arise and fall away. Secondly, we are misled by the continuity or succession (santati) of nåma and of rúpa. They arise and fall away immediately to be followed by a succeeding one and therefore we think that they are lasting. It seems that we are seeing people, and that seeing lasts, but in reality many cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another. It seems that paying attention to shape and form occurs at the same time as seeing, but these are different moments. <..> Thirdly, we are also misled by remembrance of a ³group², gana saññå. We experience nåmas as a group, a whole, and rúpas as a group. We see only a ³whole² of different dhammas. We cling to the idea of a person who exists, whereas in reality a person is only citta, cetasika and rúpa which arise and fall away immediately." ======= 45769 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk nilovg Hi Phil and Kel, I appreciated your messages. Kel wrote: It also troubles me as part of the pessimistic message by only focusing on first 2 noble truths. From the texts we indeed are afforded a rarest of rare opportunity of not only being born a human but in a Buddha Sasana. We must indeed have done great things which only points to our potential. We also know we carry enough akusala baggage which can drag us to the lower realms anytime if we don't use this opportunity wisely. We have Buddha's guarantee that it can be done in this very life. ----- op 20-05-2005 01:44 schreef Philip op philco777@...: ... Personally, I cannot understand nibbaana until I understand the first noble truth.... But it is also not good to become attached to the concept of > nibbaana as something to attain in this lifetime or else! ... Can we be sure there is not lobha > or dosa at the root of our consideration of nibbana?... I think it is > premature to often reflect on the escape. First things first. ---------------- N: I told Lodewijk of your posts and he said: the Buddha also spoke about the third noble Truth and that is no small matter. I think we should listen to him. It is not good to be led by fear of clinging, as Kel said, that is pessimistic. As he said, we better focus on the great opportunity granted to us, and we have the guarantee that it can be done. We cling to everything, also to the stages of insight, but more important is knowing that we are clinging. Nibbaana cannot be object of clinging, but when we think of nibbaana we may cling to a concept we have of it. But again, we should not be led by fear. As Lodewijk said, by stressing only one point (knowing the present moment) we omit the goal and then we are out of balance. It is the same as when we stress: there are only nama and rupa, no persons, and we forget that we are living in this world with people. But these two things do not contradict each other. We develop the brahma viharas, and this in a more effective way, without selfishness and with knowledge of the near enemies, when there is also the development of vipassana. --------- > Ph: I have a tendency to skip chapters in books or posts here at DSG which deal with sublime > attainments, -------- N: I also have this, when I read about nibbaana. But now I found very good texts, worth considering. These can remind us not to be negligent. Then we shall miss the goal! Thus, such texts about nibbaana can remind us of the rare opportunity offered to us. ------- Ph:... And in the meantime, there will be many > moments in which defilements can wear away a little, and > wholesomeness can accumulate a little. There is cause for great > encouragement and hope in knowing this. --------- N: The latent tendencies condition akusala and they are eradicated at enlightenment. But meanwhile, they can wear away. In the Kindred Sayings IV, Sayings about the uncompounded, thnere are 44 expressions for nibbaana (IV, 366):< The end, Without aasavas, Truth, The hard to see, The unfading...The wonderful, The marvellous..The refuge, the goal.> And in IV, 72, Including, in the verse: The message is: through mindfulness of what appears through the six doors there will be less clinging and then: near is nibbaana. Thus we should not say: it is too far away. Nina. 45770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:Q. Enthusiasm/piiti , Htoo nilovg Dear Htoo, your note on piiti is most welcome, it inspires me to consider more kusala and akusala. How timely is Larry's Visuddhimagga message, with this list of akusala cetasikas, after the list of sobhana cetasikas. It is a world of difference, it is dramatical, I would say. Instead of answering line by line, I would rather take out a few points, otherwise the reader is burdened by too much material. BTW I answer your other Q. later on. op 19-05-2005 12:19 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: , I do not think 'entirely different'. As it is > piti cetasika, they (lobha-mula cittas and kusala cittas) share a > single characteristic of piti. > The difference is 'object', 'associated dhamma', 'supporting > conditions'. --------- N: Yes, and being conditioned by way of sahajata, conascence, causes an immense difference. Take volition in kusala citta and akusala citta: what repercussions in our life! Kamma and vipaaka. Manasikaara: the right attention is the proximate cause for kusala, the wrong attention for akusala. One cetasika, manasikaara, a dhamma with a specific characteristic and function, but how different. The kusala citta and cetasikas are all pure, they are accompanied by saddhaa. They are accompanied by sati that is non-forgetful of kusala, alert for kusala. Take the cetasikas of calm, lightness, wieldiness etc. They all make citta and cetasikas pliable, competent for kusala. Take energy, which is energy for kusala. Chanda, wish-to-do for kusala. The akusala citta and cetasikas are all deluded by the darkness of moha, they are all poisoned by shamelessness and recklessness. They lack sati, they are forgetful of kusala. They are impure, they lack saddha. Energy or effort is wrong effort, whatever it undertakes, it does not lead to anything good. Chanda is impure, it is also called chanda raga or kaama-chanda Happy feeling is very different when it is kusala and when it is akusala. We could check. Is there a difference in happy feeling when laughing, and when we give with pure generosity? In the first case it is coarse, in the second case it is refined and it has calm. Even in the sutta, the Buddha classified feelings as 108, and this shows that the one cetasika feeling is very diverse. But because of delusion we do not detect the difference between kusala and akusala. Lobha has many tricks and comes in disguise. We may take pleasant feeling accompanying lobha for pleasant feeling that is kusala. This may happen when we do not notice the near enemy of metta: selfish affection. When there is kusala, we do not aim for our own gain or profit. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > So only 'ruupa' can serve as purejaata paccaya or prenascent > condition. > But I said that earlier piti.s may serve as prenascent condition so > that later piti.s become stronger to that level of sati-sambojjhanga. ------------- N: I looked up purejaata paccaya in Guide to Conditional Relations, (Narada) p. 43, and as you said, only rupa that is object or vatthu that is the physical base conditions naama. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and thus it must arise before the nama it conditions. Thus, this does not pertain to earlier piiti and piiti arising later on. --------- H: But when real dhamma is examined, sati is just sati and it has its > character both in kusala and akusala. I think the difference is > object, associated dhammas, and supporting conditions. -------- N: Akusala citta and cetasikas do not have sati, they lack sati. They go into the wrong direction, they lead to downfall. Nina. 45771 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma kenhowardau Hi Sukin, ----------------- S: > Thanks for the support. ------------------ Thanks for calling it that, but I might have done better to let you and Matheesha continue your discussion - unsupported. :-) ---------------------------------------------- S: > Logic and reasoning is a useful tool for those of us who agree, but for opposing views, it does not work most of the time. In fact, I doubt that you can reason anyone into Right View. ----------------------------------------------- I especially like the logic and reasoning you have been using in your discussion with Htoo. For example, you said "Take `self', `someone' out of the equation and the path becomes clearer and easier to follow." It seems that some of us are saying, "Take self out and the path becomes clearer," while others are saying something very different: " Take self out *when* the path becomes clearer." -------------------------------- S: > There are benefits to discussing, so in the end one continues doing it. ;-) ------------------ And while there is 'courage, patience and good cheer' we can't go wrong. Ken H 45772 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:45am Subject: Dhamma Thread (402) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When there reaches a time that there is no difficulty to exert loving- kindness on beings the practitioner will be able to stay with loving- kindness almost all the time. As soon as he or she wakes up, loving-kindness starts to arise in him or her. This is brought along the whole day and then the whole night except the sleeping period or time. Whenever he or she goes, loving- kindness follows. As this happens, at the same time there will not be any discrimination between different types of beings as mentioned in the previous posts. Everyone on this earth loves themselves. Whenever there arises a competition of one's self and others' most people will be on the side of thier selves instead of equilibrium. There are 4 different types of beings from the perspective of priority. These beings are 1. being who we believe is our self 2. beings who are deared by us 3. beings who are not deared or not hated by us 4. beings who are hated by us These 4 beings come in this seniority for priority. If there is just one apple, one will eat it and will not give anyone. If there is 2 apples, one will eat one apple and gives another apple to the deared one. If there is 3 apples and he or she is suggest to give each apple to these 4 beings, one will take for himself or herself, gives one apple to the deared one and gives the 3rd apple to non-deared-non-hated being. If metta is a true one, it should be working for all. Another example is that when a murderer comes and asks for a person to kill from these 4 beings, no one should be given. If one let kill his or her self for the sake of other there is a boundry. If gives the hated one, this is not metta. If gives non- deared-non-hated one, this is also not metta. If one gives the deared one, there still exist boundry. There should not be any boundry between any beings deared or hated or not. This has to be. Because metta is universal friendliness and metta work for all and metta is not limited to anyone. Metta has to be unlimited. This kind of unlimited metta has to be brought along throught out the day and night and brought along wherever he or she goes. When this happens, this is mental exertion and this is metta-vitakka or this is thinking in the form of loving-kindness and vitakka or initial- application is working well. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45773 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:52am Subject: [dsg] Re:Q. Enthusiasm/piiti , Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > your note on piiti is most welcome, it inspires me to consider more kusala > and akusala. and supporting conditions. > -------- > N: Akusala citta and cetasikas do not have sati, they lack sati. They go > into the wrong direction, they lead to downfall. > Nina. -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Nina, Thanks for your explanation on associated cetasikas in comparison with kusala and akusala. In the later part I think I shifted to 'sati'. We were talking on piiti. It might be my accidental mistake to talk on sati instead of piti. With respect, Htoo Naing 45774 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: Extending merit is one of the 10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases > of meritorious deeds. Nothing is `transferred' . Pouring water is a > custom that I seem to recall is even mentioned in the suttas and like > all other customs can be followed with right or wrong view, like > paying respects in a temple, walking around a stupa three times and so > on. > > James: Pouring water is mentioned in what sutta? If you can pull out > your "10 punna-kiriya-vatthu or bases or meritorious deeds", surely > you can tell me the sutta the custom of pouring water comes from ;-)). .... S: The Tirokudda Sutta and commentary were probably what I was thinking of, but no time to discuss further;-)). Metta, Sarah p.s I suggested to Jon that it might be better if I resigned from 'the management' as it seems to cause you distress and I thought it might be better for the list. Unfortunately, he won't hear of it and says he needs my assistance. I tried:-)). ====== 45775 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,159 htootintnaing Dear Larry, Thanks for your post. You wrote: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch.XIV 159. II. (22) As regards the 'unprofitable', there are firstly seventeen associated with the first unprofitable consciousness rooted in greed (22), that is to say, thirteen constant given in the texts as such and four or-what-ever-states. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The first unprofitable consciousness is somanassa saha gatam ditthi sampayutta asankharika citta or happy-minded wrong-viewing unprompted consciousness. You said 17 associated. I think it is 19 associated. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry: Herein, the thirteen given as such are these: [phassa] contact (i), [cetana]volition (ii), [vitakka]applied thought (iii), [vicaara]sustained thought(iv), [piiti]happiness (v), [viiriya]energy (vi), [jivitindriya]life (vii), [ekaggataa]concentration (viii), (xxxvii) consciencelessness, (xxxviii) shamelessness [ahirika], (xxxix) greed[lobha], (xl) delusion[moha], (xli) wrong view[ditthi]. The four or-what-ever-states are these: zeal (xxviii), resolution (xxix), (xlii) agitation, attention (xxx). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was puzzled. I could not make things out on your post. 1st unprofitable consciousness has 19 associated. a) 7 universal mental factors (sabbacitta saadharana cetasikas0 1. phassa or contact 2. vedana or feeling 3. cetana or volition 4. sanna or perception 5. ekaggata or one-pointedness 6. jivitindriya or mental life 7. manasikara or attention b) 6 particular mental factors (pakinnaka cetasikas) 1. vitakka or initial application 2. vicaara or sustained application 3. piiti or joy 4. viiriya or effort 5. chanda or zeal 6. adhimokkha or decisiveness c) 4 universal unwholesome mental factors (sabbaakusala saadharana ) 1. moha or ignorance 2. ahirika or shameless 3. anottappa or fearlessness 4. uddhacca or restlessness d) 2 attachment-led mental factors 1. lobha or attachment 2. ditthi or wrong view So in the 1st unprofitable consciousness there are 19 associates. They are 1. 7 universal mental factors 2. 6 particular mental factors 3. 4 universal unwholesome mental factors 4. 2 attachment-led mental factors --- 19 cetasikas With Metta, Htoo Naing 45776 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (403) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When metta or loving-kindness is with us all the time through out the day and through out the night and metta or loving-kindness or universal-friendliness is with us wherever we go that is when we stand, when we sit, when we lie down, when we walk, it can be said that we are living with loving-kindness or we are staying with pure- living-on-loving-kindness or metta-brahmavihara. When there are only these thoughts of wishing all beings to be healthy, wealthy, free of danger etc etc, there will not be any thoughts of aversion like 'wanting to kill, wanting to hit, wanting to destroy etc etc'. So there is free of byapada or aversive-thinking. As these wishes are pure wishes and they are not profit-expecting wishes there will not be any sensuous-thinking or kaamacchanda. If one is doing metta and he or she is expecting some forms of profit by doing this metta then this is not a true one. If this happens, then there already arise sensuous-thinging or kaamacchanda nivarana or hindrance of sensuous-thinking. When one is stick to these metta-wishes all the time, there will not be any worrying and there will not be any straying of thoughts. Because their thoughts are all directed to beings and these beings are not discriminated as there is no more boundry when the practise is advanced. This is breakage of the 3rd hindrance called uddhacca- kukkucca-nivarana or hindrance of spreading-worrying-thinking. When one is consciously proliferating all these pure wishes of kindness on all beings without any limitation, he or she is alert, active, light, flexible, fast-minded, malleable, calmed and there is no sloth and torpor. This is breakage of the 4th hindrance called thina-middha-nivarana or hindrance of sloth-torpored-thinking. When there are not any of these 4 hindrances and one is diligently practising metta-bhavana in this way, he or she will be happy, calm, tranquilised with metta-bhavana and when there is no doubt or suspicion on the practice, then the 5th hindrance is said to be broken down and it does not arise any more when there is a continuous flow of thoughts of kindness-wishes to all beings. As there is free of all hindrances, the concentration at that particular time can be called as proximity-concentration or upacaara samadhi. Because this kind of concentration is proximate to the next step of much stronger concentration called absroptice concentration or appanaa samadhi. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45777 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:21am Subject: Breathing Treatise / Finishing Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi, all interested DSG members - Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. 11. The cognizance that hunts the past, That loves the future, that is slack, Over-exerted, or enticed, Or repelled, is unconcentrated. These six defects in concentration Based upon mindfulness of breathing Are such that when they stain his thought He knows not higher cognizance. 12. (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (2) When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted externally, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (3) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, in- breath both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (4) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out- breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (5) Owing to longing for out-breath in him when he is fatigued by [too long or too short] in-breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (6) Owing to longing for in-breath in him when he is fatigued by out- breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjana) to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (13) With cognizance running after the past and attacked by distraction both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (14) With cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (15) With cognizance slack and attacked by indolence both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (16) With cognizance over-exerted and attacked by agitation both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (17) With cognizance enticed and attacked by greed both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. (18) With cognizance repelled and attacked by ill-will both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. 13. One whose mindfulness of breathing Is undeveloped, unperfected, Finds perturbation of his body Likewise of his cognizance, He is then excited in his body And likewise in his cognizance. One whose mindfulness of breathing Has been developed and perfected, Quits perturbation of his body And likewise of his cognizance, He is unexcited in his body And likewise in his cognizance. 14. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from those hindrances [mentioned in Section i] develops concentration by mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds these eighteen imperfections(upakkilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations (samodhaana). [End of Section ii] Tep's Note: I tried to look for the Pali for words like perturbation, shakable, excited and disquieted, but the INDEX has no Pali for these words. Section iii (Part 1, paragraphs 15 - 23) will be posted next Friday, 5/27/05. Respectfully, Tep ========== 45778 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 11. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing Dear Sukin and all, This is the last part of reply to your first long reply. You wrote: > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> On the study level, only when there is pariyatti is there a corresponding level of `following the Path'. On the practice level, this must be the actual moments of Satipatthana and not in the intention associated with other roots and which then condition certain activities, like walking orsitting meditation. =========================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The first sentence is not clear to me. Later parts sounds right. Generally even though 'the above passage is not clear to me I grasp the idea. That is you are right. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Is there any difficulty any easy? S=> Kusala brings ease and akusala doesn't. =============================== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I asked whether there is 1.difficulty, whether there is 2.easy. Anyway leave this part. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If someone is following the path of mahasatipatthana, he will not > be any wrong. Satipatthaana is always right. > Take `self', `someone' out of the equation and the path becomes > clearer and easier to follow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: I do not understand. S=> "There is a Path, but no being who walks it." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I agree. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This is not just theoretical. If we observe our experiences we can see how every phenomena is conditioned and beyond control. Conditions leading to akusala can be observed without the interference of self, and so kusala is being developed. And when kusala is observed, there can be appreciation of the conditions leading to it, and this adds to the development too. And conditions good and bad, continue to roll on. The `self' that thinks it knows better, can only become an obstacle to development. ================================= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Good. I agree. But still thinking that 'this is a good logical thinking'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Old Sukin: > > But as I said, it is questioning the very idea of `catching > > realities'. When some idea is perceived as `wrong view', what do > you expect the reaction to be? > > I must go now. Had in mind a different kind of letter, but this is > > what it has turned out to be. The arrogance is indeed due to the > > kilesas, but the thought which conditioned it is the contents of > many of the posts, including one by you to Jon. So I hope you don't mind. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > If The Buddha's Path is followed,.... > A commentary would greatly be appreciated. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > Who is that 'a commentary'? S=> I didn't understand your statement "If The Buddha's Path is followed,...." written in reaction to my comments before that. So I asked for an elaboration, a commentary. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ha ha. Now I see. I just put a piece as if it is 'a title of a movie or film'. Maybe one day it would become a title. So this is the end of our part 1 discussion. I will also reply your Ps: below. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: Metta, Sukinder Ps: This is a very long post. Please don't feel obliged to answer point by point; if possible you can just draw out one or two important ones. Sorry to put the burden on you. Pps: I will answer your other post tomorrow, maybe. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think I have extensively and intensively replied in details. It has been nice to talk to you and I obtain a lot of wisdom from your self. Thanks for your invitation to DSG 2 years ago. You indirectly taught me a lot. I am nothing but a baby. You can review my earlier messages here, which are all like baby-messages. With deepest respect, Htoo Naing 45779 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Finishing Section ii htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi, all interested DSG members - > Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. > Section iii (Part 1, paragraphs 15 - 23) will be posted next Friday, > 5/27/05. > Respectfully, > Tep ========== -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear Tep, Could you please link section i. Thanks, Htoo 45780 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:48am Subject: Dhamma Thread (404) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When practising pure-living-on-loving-kindness or metta-brahmavihara the advanced practitioner will notice that there is no hindrances at a time. His mind is pure and free of contamination with aversion, sensuous desire and any other dirts or defilements. He is directing all his loving mind to unlimited beings. This is vitakka. Vitakka or initial-application is working well and they do not direct to other thoughts and they just have the thoughts of loving- kindness wish to unlimited beings. His application of mind to unlimited beings will not depart from those beings and all the mind will be there all the time by reviewing after reviewing on beings with loving-kindness. This is vicaara. This is sustained application or sustained application of the mind to the object 'unlimited beings'. To be unlimited, all the boundries have to be broken down and all beings have access to equal amount of loving-kindness. When these boundries are broken down and there is continuous arising of loving- kindness wishes on unlimited beings and this is accompanied by thrilling happiness or suffusing joy which makes the whole body lighter and lighter and it seems that each and every body cell becomes lighter and they are suffused with great joy derived from mental activities of loving-kindness. This is piiti or 'suffused joy'. As there is no defilements, no dirts, no wavering, the mind at that time is well calm and tranquilised. And the mind feels peaceful and free of any physical and mental distress. This is sukha. This is tranquility. This is calmness. The mind is in the state of advanced calmness and stillness. This is ekaggata or one- pointedness. These factors namely vitakka or initial-application, vicaara or sustained-application, piiti or 'suffused-joy', sukha or 'physical and mental undistress' or 'calmness' or 'tranquility', and ekaggata or 'one- pointedness' are all jhaana factors. They are working well very effectively. This is a state of close proximity to absorptive state of mind. And this is called upacaara samadhi or proximity-concentration. At a unspecified time 'the mind in proximity-concentration' of pure- living-loving-kindness cultivation is well absorbed into a singlity as 1st jhaana state and this is 1st jhana with metta-brahmavihaara kammatthaana bhaavana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45781 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: Dear Htoo, as all are agreed and understood here. Sukin> Dhammas rise and fall due to conditions beyond control. Sati and panna are two such dhammas. When these arise by conditions the object is known with varying degrees of clarity. With development, not only the characteristics are known, but also other conditions can become apparent to panna. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Up to this point, it is OK. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: On the other hand, when there is the `intention' to observe, it cannot be satipatthana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Please explain this. Which is good, intentionful or intentionless when observing? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sukin: This being either motivated by lobha or ditthi, and these create their own `illusion' which is then mistaken to be direct observation of realities. Metta, Sukinder ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I would suggest you read 'Upanisa sutta'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45782 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:14am Subject: Unwholesome consciousness htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 8 attachment-consciousness. The first four are all associated with happiness or joy while the latter four consciousness are all not associated with joy or happiness but they just arise with indifferent feeling. The first 4 attachment-consciousness are 1. happy-minded wrong-viewing unprompted consciousness 2. happy-minded wrong-viewing prompted consciousness 3. happy-minded non-wrong-viewing unprompted consciousness 4. happy-minded non-wrong-viewing prompted consciousness. The 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th are all the same as above with the only exception of not associated with 'happy-mind' or joy. But all these 4 consciousness are associated with indifferent feeling. The fifth lobha citta is seen as in a case of a child while he is listening his parents' talking interestingly. He is not particularly happy because he does not fully understand adult's speech. But as there is lobha he is listening actively. There is wrong view as he does not know kamma well. And no one is urging him to listen. The sixth lobha citta is seen as in case of a child while he is receiving a present and being told that it is for him. He is not particularly happy. This is upekkha. He does not know kamma. But he is told that the present is for him. Before he hears this, lobha citta does not arise. When told, it arises. This is sasankharika or being urged. The seventh lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of money. He is not particularly happy as this amount of money is nothing to do with somanassa. He knows kamma well. No one is urging him in his action. The eighth lobha citta can be seen in case of an adult when he is counting some notes of other people's money when he is told that the notes he is counting is for him. Amount is not much and he has to be urgerd. So this is sasankharika lobha citta. There are 2 dosa mula cittas. They are _ 1.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam asankharika cittam 2.domanassa sahagatam patigha samyuttam sasankharika cittam. Domanassa means unpleasant feeling in mind. Patigha means destructing, hurting. The first dosa citta can be seen in most of dosa cittas where people apparently behaving aggressively like killing, hitting, pounding, kicking, swearing etc etc. The second dosa citta can be seen in the case when a man is told something and he did not hear that. A friend told that it was you who is foolish. Then he becomes angry. He has to be prompted. So this is sasankharika citta. There are 2 moha mula cittas. They are_ 1.upekkha sahagatam vicikiccha samyutta cittam 2.upekkha sahagatam uddhcca samyutta cittam The first moha citta is seen in a case of undecisiveness when a person cannot decide right or wrong and he has suspicion on the matter. The second moha citta can be seen in most people while they are wandering thinking fancily. This can be seen especially in case of grief reaction. When someone lost, then there is restlessness and people concerned are upseted. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 45783 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:14am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Finishing Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi Htoo - Section i was posted in Message # 45336. Regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Tep, > > Could you please link section i. > > Thanks, > > Htoo 45784 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 2:33am Subject: The Rhinocero's Horns 3! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Twin Truths won by keen Dual Consideration: The blessed Buddha once said: Friends, the first consideration is: Whatever Misery arises, this Misery is caused by Ignorance! Another consequent consideration is: Clearing all Ignorance by Understanding, ends arising of Misery! This immensely long round of rebirth with transition from now this, then to that form, is caused by this dreadfully deep Ignorance alone...!!! Those who really understand this, do not renew coming back into any form of being...!!! Considering these twin truths cautiously, resolutely & enthusiastically, one may either enter this state of Nibbana right here & now in this very life, or if there is remaining traces of clinging left, the state of a non-returner... Those who neglect understanding of Ignorance, the origin of Ignorance, the End of Ignorance, and how Ignorance is completely eliminated, are incapable of release by understanding, are incapable of mental release, are incapable of direct knowledge, and are thereby incapable of making an end... They repeat birth, ageing, decay, sickness & death ever again... While those who undertake understanding of Ignorance, Origin, End & Way, are indeed capable of mental release by understanding, direct knowledge, and thus capable of making an end... They are headed towards the deathless! Source: The Bundle of Threads. The Sutta-Nipata 724-765 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/index.html http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=201818 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=131548 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403082 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133036 Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <....> 45785 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:27am Subject: Dhamma Thread (405) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, When the practitioner is absorbed into a state of 1st jhana he is said to be developing 1st jhaana. In 1st jhaana which originated from metta brahmavihaara the cittas are all 1st jhaana cittas or rupavacara rupakusala 1st jhaana cittas. All these cittas have to ground on hadaya vatthu or heart-base or they all have to base on hadaya vatthu. Their object is just one. That is any of all these 1st jhaana cittas takes the same object, which is just one. That single object is 'the idea of unlimited beings' and this is pannatti or just names. The way of application of the mind to this object is that by developing loving-kindness wishes. There are cittas or consciousness, arammana or object, vatthu or base or ground. When these cittas arise they are already accompanied by their accompaniment mental factors. These mental factors or mental accompaniments are 55 in number in case of all 1st jhaana cittas. These 55 mental factors are a) 7 universal mental factors 1. contact or phassa (contact of 1st jhana citta with unlimited being) 2. feeling or vedana (somanassa vedana or mental pleasure) 3. volition or cetana (encouragement to take the object unlimited satta) 4. perception or sanna (recognition of unlimited beings) 5. one-pointedness or ekaggata (fixity to unlimited being) 6. mental life or jivitindriya (mental supporter) 7. attention or manasikaara (attention to unlimited beings) b) 6 particular mental factors 1. initial application or vitakka (application of the mind to unlimited beings) 2. sustained application or vicaara( sustension of the mind to unlimited beings) 3. effort or viriya (energy to exert mentally to unlimited being) 4. joy or piiti (suffused joy to all other mental factors and citta) 5. zeal or wish or chanda (enthusiasm to take unlimited beings) 6. decision or adhimokkha (clear decision to take unlimited beings as an object) c) 19 general beautiful mental factors 1. confidence or sadda 1. confidence or sadda 2. mindfulness or sati 2. balancer or tatramajjhattata 3. shame or hiri 3. non-attachment or alobha 4. fear or ottappa 4. non-aversion or adosa 5. mind-tranquility 5. mental-tranquility or citta-passaddhi or kaayapassaddhi 6. mind-lightness 6. mental-lightness or citta-lahutaa or kaaya-lahutaa 7. mind-mouldability 7. mental-mouldability or citta-mudutaa or kaaya-mudutaa 8. mind-workability 8. mental-workability or citta-kammannataa or kaaya-kammannataa 9. mind-proficiency 9. mental-proficiency or citta-pagunnataa or kaaya-pagunnataa 10.mind-uprightness 10.mental-uprightness or cittaujukataa or kaayujukataa d) special beautiful mental factor 1. pannindria cetasika or panna cetasika So there are 1. 7 universal mental factors 2. 6 particular mental factors 3.19 general beautiful mental factors 4. 1 special beautiful mental factors --- 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas Karuna and mudita do not arise with metta jhaana. 3 virati cetasikas do not arise with metta jhaana. So in 1st jhaana of metta-brahmavihaara or loving- kindness-pure-living there are 1. 1st jhana citta ( rupaavacara ruupakusala 1st jhaana cittas) 2. 33 mental factors or 33 cetasikas 3. 1 hadaya ruupa or hadaya vatthu 4. 0 pannatti ( this is illusionary object and designated as 0) The pannatti here is 'the idea of beings of unlimited characterization (deared, hated, non-deared-non-hated) and unlimited number of 1 to infinity) This is the picture of 1st jhaana with metta brahmavihaara. Among 33 cetasikas or 33 mental factors there are 5 special cetasikas and they are designated as jhaana factors as they help to develop 1st jhaana. They are vitakka or initial-application, vicaara or sustained- application, piiti or 'suffused-joy', sukha or 'physical and mental undistressedness or pleasure', and ekaggataa or one-pointedness or 'fixity to object'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45786 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:26am Subject: Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? Thanks in advance, Htoo Naing 45787 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 20, 2005 4:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? TGrand458@... Dependent Origination is nothing other than "cause and effect." Outcomes are relative to conditions and they are continually moving and changing. This applies to any kind of state subject to arising...physical, mental, spiritual; whatever. TG In a message dated 5/20/2005 6:31:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? Thanks in advance, Htoo Naing 45788 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 9:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (406) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, 1st jhaana can also be atained through the practice of unlimited compassion or karuna brahmavihaara. It is karuna kammatthaana. The implications are almost the same as in case of metta brahmavihaara but the difference is that 'the mental exertion is applied with the idea of wishing easing of beings. When we say 'easing' there always are 'uneasing load on beings'. So karuna generally goes to all those who are in needs of help in certain form. Usually beings of attention in karuna kammatthaana are 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble'. This is the difference between karuna and mudita. When karuna goes to 'dukkhita sattas' or 'beings in trouble', muditaa goes to 'sukhita sattas' or 'beings in prosperity'. That is why karuna and mudita cannot arise together because the objects are totally different that is one is 'in trouble' while another is 'in prosperity'. Unlike karuna and mudita, metta can go to both kinds of beings. That is both beings in trouble and beings in prosperity. By the same token, upekkha-brahmavihaara can also go to both kinds of beings. Actually metta and upekkha can go to any kind of beings whether they are in trouble or not, whether they are in prosperity or not and whatever they are beheaving. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45789 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing Dear TG, Thanks. Could you please explain moment to moment dependent origination? Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Dependent Origination is nothing other than "cause and effect." Outcomes are > relative to conditions and they are continually moving and changing. This > applies to any kind of state subject to arising...physical, mental, spiritual; > whatever. > > TG > > > In a message dated 5/20/2005 6:31:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Friends in Dhamma, > > If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in > short? > And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > origination'. > Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention? > > Thanks in advance, > > Htoo Naing > > > 45790 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 20, 2005 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? TGrand458@... Hi Htoo I thought I just did. But let me give you a physical example... Each moment the Earth's orbit around the Sun is dependent on the Sun. Moment by moment its orbit is dependent of the Sun. If the Sun all of a sudden disappeared, the Earth trajectory would change accordingly. It would no longer "bend" toward the (previous) Sun in orbit, but would move relative to other stellar bodies in what would now be a more linear fashion. All conditions are dependent on other conditions, and moment by moment they conform to the forces -- mental or physical -- that are brought to bear. TG In a message dated 5/20/2005 9:26:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@... writes: Dear TG, Thanks. Could you please explain moment to moment dependent origination? Htoo Naing 45791 From: "Philip" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 10:24am Subject: Re: Might I also add philofillet Hi Kel Sorry, I missed your post the other day > It occurs to me the crux of your position is mixing the path and the > fruit. (snip) There's no misguidance with trying to emulate or striving to > better oneself and act like how a sotapanna would. For example just > try having as good sila as you can, including mano. The danger is in > thinking one is already there and the sila is unbrokable hence > mistaking onself of having obtained the fruit (and stopping the > practice). You put it well here, and in the rest of the post. The suttas do provide explicit models of virtue to emulate, and I am might be too careful (pessimistic?) about the worldling's capacity to do so. And I might exagerate the harmfulness of any delusion involved. I will try to keep an open mind - even while I continue to wonder if seeking to emulate the practices of sotapannas of the Budddha's time is truly helpful for worldlings in this day and age. Metta, Phil 45792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nibbaana, dialogue with Lodewijk nilovg Hi James, I appreciate your post. op 20-05-2005 06:41 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@...: > Now, some people say, "Oh, I can't possibly comprehend nibbana" or > "Nibbana is just too far off for me", but those are just the > defilements talking. N: So, we have to find out what type of cittas motivate talking like that. And we also can find out whether we think of the goal with clinging, or with wise consideration. Nina. 45793 From: nina Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: anapanasati, Tep, Sukin. nilovg Hi Tep and Sukin, Thanks Tep for your post on breathing. I go very, very slowly through the Thai co, it is very long. Sukin, I listen every day to MP3 on anapanasati and I have a question. Perhaps you could ask Kh. Sujin? She deals with the two methods (nayas) of samatha and vipassana of anapanasati as it is part of mindfulness of body. She quotes a passage that refers to jhana which is the same as the Visuddhimagga : , that is, making happiness (píti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhånas in which happiness (píti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhåna, because of the experiencing of the object.> After that it deals with: non-delusion and that is knowing piiti with insight. My question is: when the jhaanacitta experiences breath as object with absorption, how can it at the same time experience piiti? Breathing in long he experiences piiti, etc. But when it is jhaana only breath can be experienced? Thank you for the trouble. Nina. 45794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,159 nilovg Dear Htoo, Today I started working it all out.This is in the context of sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, and thus, feeling and saññaa are omitted, they are each a separate khandha. The order is different from what you and I are used to, universals first, etc. but here some are included in the 'or-what-so-evers', yevaa-pannaka. So, here the number seventeen is correct. I post it tomorrow or the day after. Nina. op 20-05-2005 14:10 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@...: > You said 17 associated. I think it is 19 associated. 45795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Musings13 - Prior Attainments of the Bodhisatta nilovg Dear Sarah, Many thanks for this interesting post with your careful reflections. Would you also send it to Ven. Dhammanando's personal address? He said to me that he is only an occasional reader of dsg. I would like to know his opinion too. I like your conclusion. Nina. op 20-05-2005 08:01 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@...: > I think that we really have very limited knowledge of the teachings even > theoretically and of course it is only by following the path that > difficult aspects will become clearer. Even whilst reflecting, the various > doubts, attachments, thinking and views can be known as sankhara dhammas > too. 45796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 20, 2005 0:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vesak discussions nilovg Hi Ken H, what is the theme of your Vesak discussions? I wish you all a fruitful time, Nina. op 20-05-2005 13:32 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@...: > And while there is 'courage, patience and good cheer' we can't go > wrong. 45797 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Breathing & Path of Discrimination/ Summary Note buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Sarah: The Tirokudda Sutta and commentary were probably what I was thinking of, but no time to discuss further;-)). James: I did some searching for the sutta on the Internet but I couldn't find it. And I didn't understand the references to what collection it is in. I can try more later if you can't find what you are looking for- since you don't have time now. Sarah: I suggested to Jon that it might be better if I resigned from 'the management' as it seems to cause you distress and I thought it might be better for the list. Unfortunately, he won't hear of it and says he needs my assistance. I tried:-)) James: Your being a member of the management doesn't cause me distress. Why do you say that? Somebody has to be a member of the management I suppose- I don't have any problems with you filling that role. Of course, with that role comes an extra responsibility. I guess it is your kamma- and it is my kamma to give you a hard time ;-)). BTW, if you really want to leave the management than just do it; Jon, even though he is your husband, doesn't have the right to tell you what to do- it should be a mutual decision if anything. Just my opinion. Metta, James 45798 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:00pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma matheesha333 Hi KenH, K:But do you expect him to be > open-minded as to the value of other philosophies and religions, or > of other schools of Buddhism? Must he be prepared to accept the > teaching of your personal meditation teacher if that teaching > contradicts the selected texts? M: The answer to your first question is no.. as I do not know much about other schools of buddhism. The answer to you second question is also no :). I dont come with any such expectations. My only expectation is that we might be able to discuss the 'differences', if there are truly any, without being dogmatic- ie not thinking that ones own path is the only way. I must let you know that I am rather slow in answering at times because my life can be busy. So the full time devotion that you might see from other members is something i might not be able to reprodue except in short bursts. metta Matheesha 45799 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: Beginner to Dhamma Dialogue 2. Sukin & Htoo matheesha333 Hi Sukinder, Sorry for not replying earlier, I see that you and Htoo are having an interesting dialogue. I would like to join in here. I am interested in your idea of intention being problematic. I am trying to get a picture of what type of practice you are doing. You say that it is simply being aware of dhammas as they arise? How often would you say that this happens? Every few minutes, every few hours? Do you devote time for this to happen, or do you just let it happen right through the day? metta Matheesha 45800 From: "matheesha" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Moment to moment dependent origination? matheesha333 Dear Htoo, H> If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in > short? M: I think the D.O. 12 stage list is the shortest version. Or perhaps the 'when this arises, that arises, when this passess away .. ' is a even shorter version. Then there are other sections down other pathways as well. I remember and interesting one in the Mahanidana sutta: "Now, craving is dependent on feeling, seeking is dependent on craving, acquisition is dependent on seeking, ascertainment is dependent on acquisition, desire and passion is dependent on ascertainment, attachment is dependent on desire and passion, possessiveness is dependent on attachment, stinginess is dependent on attachment, defensiveness is dependent on stinginess, and because of defensiveness, dependent on defensiveness, various evil, unskillful phenomena come into play: the taking up of sticks and knives; conflicts, quarrels, and disputes; accusations, divisive speech, and lies. H> And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent > origination'. M: Some sections of D.O. are spread/stretched over time and space. Some sections like Sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya nama rupa, phassa paccaya vedana, vedana paccaya tanha, tanha paccaya upadana happen very quickly in the here and now, and can be observed through a trained mind. Sections of nama rupa paccaya salayathanan, upadana paccaya bhavo, bhavo paccaya jati, I believe are spread out in time much more. So I do believe the moment to moment parts are from the suttas. metta Matheesha 45801 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 20, 2005 6:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? lbidd2 Htoo: "Dear Friends in Dhamma, If I may, may I ask you to explain D.O or Dependent Origination in short? And then could you please explain 'moment to moment dependent origination'. Does that exist in tipitaka? Or is it someone's invention?" Hi Htoo, I think this idea originated with Ajahn Buddadasa, http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/documents/the_way_it_is/20moa.html The general idea seems to be that each link is just a moment, not lasting. Larry 45802 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhistmedi... Hi Jon, Sarah, Nina, Htoo, James, Phil, Mike and others - I am grateful to everybody's attention to the Breathing Treatise posts. Nina, I will respond to your remarks (on the two sections so far) by to morrow. Now let's discuss the material in Section ii a little bit. This section deals with the 18 imperfections that arise "in momentary sequence", not simultaneously in one moment. These obstructions to samadhi are as follows: 2 kinds of mental distractions from the breath (internally and externally); 2 kinds of hope-for and attachment-to in- breath and out-breath; 2 kinds of longing for in-breath and out-breath; 6 combinatorial shakable minds when adverting to sign, to in-breath or to out-breath (3x2 = 6); 2 losses of concentration because the mind is on the past breath or jumping ahead to a future one; 2 losses of concentration due to being lazy (slack) or over-exertion; and 2 losses of concentration due to greed and ill-will. It is clear to me that these 18 distrations occur during the samatha stage of the Anapanasati bhavana. This is the critical stage when the yogi makes an effort to establish sati on the object of the meditation -- the breath that consists of three distinct parts : in-breath, out-breath, and the sign. The three parts must be known individually as well as a group. This is not unlike trying to juggle three objects in the air; the juggler must establish sati in each object (one at a time) and yet, meanwhile, he is also aware of the other two objects in relation to the one in focus -- otherwise, an object may fall down. Of course, there are other causes of distractions (internal or external; craving and clinging; imbalance between effort and concentration; past or future events, ...). I think I see some parallels between Anapanasati and walking meditation. While I am walking with sati established in the front of the body (similar to establishing sati at or near the tip of my nose in Anapanasati), I am also aware of the left and right feet being lifted and placed on the ground (similar to the in-breath and out-breath going through the nostrils are felt while the mindfulness is on the sign). If the mind follows (becomes distracted by) either the left or the right foot, while it is adverting to the front of the body, then I will lose the concentration. If my attention (and the citta) is directed to (i.e. follows) the left foot while the mind is still distracted by the right foot, then the concentration will be lost, etc. I hope you may feel free to provide me with some feedbacks and advices. Thank you much. Respectfully yours, Tep ==== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, all interested DSG members - > > Please recall that the previous post ended at 10. In this post we go from > paragraph 11 to paragraph 14, which is the last one in Section ii. > > 11. The cognizance that hunts the past, > That loves the future, that is slack, > Over-exerted, or enticed, > Or repelled, is unconcentrated. > These six defects in concentration > Based upon mindfulness of breathing > Are such that when they stain his thought > He knows not higher cognizance. > > 12. (1) When he goes in with mindfulness after the beginning, middle > and end of the in-breath, his cognizance being distracted internally, > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (2) When he goes out with mindfulness after the beginning, middle and > end of the out-breath, his cognizance being distracted externally, both > his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (3) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, in- > breath both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (4) With such behaviour of craving as hope for, and attachment to, out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (5) Owing to longing for out-breath in him when he is fatigued by [too > long or too short] in-breath, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (6) Owing to longing for in-breath in him when he is fatigued by out- > breath, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (7) If, when he adverts(aavajjana) to the sign, his cognizance is still > shakable by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are > disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (8) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed > and excited. > (9) If, when he adverts to the sign, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (10) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by the sign, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (11) If, when he adverts to in-breath, his cognizance is still shakable by > out-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (12) If, when he adverts to out-breath, his cognizance is still shakable > by in-breaths, both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, > perturbed and excited. > (13) With cognizance running after the past and attacked by distraction > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (14) With cognizance shaken by looking forward to the future [breaths] > both his body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and > excited. > (15) With cognizance slack and attacked by indolence both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (16) With cognizance over-exerted and attacked by agitation both his > body and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (17) With cognizance enticed and attacked by greed both his body and > his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > (18) With cognizance repelled and attacked by ill-will both his body > and his cognizance are disquieted, perturbed and excited. > > 13. One whose mindfulness of breathing > Is undeveloped, unperfected, > Finds perturbation of his body > Likewise of his cognizance, > He is then excited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > One whose mindfulness of breathing > Has been developed and perfected, > Quits perturbation of his body > And likewise of his cognizance, > He is unexcited in his body > And likewise in his cognizance. > > 14. When one whose cognizance(citta) is purified from those > hindrances [mentioned in Section i] develops concentration by > mindfulness of breathing with sixteen grounds these eighteen > imperfections(upakkilesa) arise in him in momentary combinations > (samodhaana). > > [End of Section ii] > 45803 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 1:49am Subject: Re: Breathing Treatise / Discussion of Section ii buddhatrue Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, Sarah, Nina, Htoo, James, Phil, Mike and others - > > It is clear to me that these 18 distrations occur during the samatha > stage of the Anapanasati bhavana. This is the critical stage when the > yogi makes an effort to establish sati on the object of the meditation -- > the breath that consists of three distinct parts : in-breath, out-breath, and > the sign. Very nice series. Could you explain more about "the sign"? Metta, James 45804 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri May 20, 2005 11:42pm Subject: Happy Wesak Greetings... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: The Great Enlightenment of the Buddha: On this full moon night of May, 2533 years ago the Buddha Awakened...!!! May all beings gain advantage & bliss by Celebrating this very Wesak Day! So indeed it happened as later told by the blessed lord Buddha Himself... Source: The Story of The Sakyamuni Gotama Buddha. Well translated by Professor N.A. Jayawickrama. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132935 <...> Caused by Ignorance, Mental Construction emerges. Ceasing of Ignorance therefore ceases Mental Construction. Caused by Mental Construction, Consciousness emerges. Ceasing of Mental Construction therefore ceases Consciousness. Caused by Consciousness, Name-&-Form emerge. Ceasing of Consciousness therefore ceases Name-&-Form. Caused by Name-&-Form, the Six Senses emerge. Ceasing of Name-&-Form therefore ceases the Six Senses. Caused by The six Senses, Contact emerges. Ceasing of The six Senses therefore ceases Contact. Caused by Contact, Feeling emerges. Ceasing of Contact therefore ceases Feeling. Caused by Feeling, Craving emerges. Ceasing of Feeling therefore ceases Craving. Caused by Craving, Clinging emerges. Ceasing of Craving therefore ceases Clinging. Caused by Clinging, Becoming emerges. Ceasing of Clinging therefore ceases Becoming. Caused by Becoming, Birth emerges. Ceasing of Becoming therefore ceases Birth. Caused by Birth, Ageing, Sickness & Death emerge. Ceasing of Birth therefore ceases Ageing, Sickness & Death. Caused by Ageing, Sickness & Death, Misery emerges. Ceasing of Ageing, Sickness & Death therefore ceases all Misery! So seeing: Such is Misery... Such is the cause of Misery... Such is the end of Misery... Such is the way leading to the end of Misery... Such was the mental fermentations... Such is the cause of fermentation... Such is the end of fermentation... Such is the way leading to the end of fermentation.' When my mind saw that, realized that, it was freed of the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, unobstructed by the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I realized that 'Birth is ended, this Holy life is fulfilled, the mission is completed. There is no further state in this world.' "This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; certainty arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose -- as it happens to one who is mindful, keen, & determined. But the satisfaction that so arose, did not obsess my mind nor remain." At this very moment of attainment of Omniscience, the 10 thousand worlds quaked 12 times & became gloriously adorned. Throughout this galaxy flowering trees bloomed, lotuses blossomed, and wines & trees bore fruit, the dark spaces of the hells and between the worlds became illuminated by a flood of radiance surpassing even that of 7 suns. Fully & perfectly Enlightened - The Buddha - perceiving this immense glory spoke these solemn 2 verses, which never has been omitted by any of countless thousands of prior Buddhas: Through this round of countless existences have I searched yet failed to find the Creator who framed this formation: What Misery! - Endless Birth, Death & Pain ! Now I see that 'the Constructor' of this structure is Craving. Never shall this construction be build again as all the rafters are shattered and the main beam is busted & broken. At the elimination of Craving this mind has reached rest. Then, friends, I myself a subject birth, ageing, sickness, death, pain, sorrow & mental degradation, having fully comprehended the danger in all what is subject to birth, ageing, sickness, death, pain, sorrow & mental degradation, searching the unborn, unageing, immune, deathless, unburning, happy, pleasant & pure supreme security from the oppressing bondage of craving, of becoming, of views, and of ignorance, entered this unbecome, unborn, uncreated, unconstructed, undiverse, unformed, unchangeable, unconditional, unimaginable, undecaying, unageing, unending, undeceiving, universal unity, this supremely safe, immune, death & painless state called Nibbana. This vision of certainty arose in me: "This release is irreversible, this is the last birth, this endless reappearance is finally ended..." Further Information about the most important Buddhist Holy day: Wesak: (*) The Significance of Vesak. Bhikkhu Mahinda (*) Visakha Puja. Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo Friendship is the Greatest ! and the entire Noble Life... Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. <...> 45805 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:25am Subject: Dhamma Thread (407) htootintnaing Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 22 meditational objects that can give rise to meditational signs called 'preparatory sign'[parikamma nimitta], 'sign of mental image' [uggaha nimitta], and 'sign of counter image of the mental image [patibhaaga nimitta]. There are 40 meditational objects for tranquility-meditation or samatha- bhaavana. All these 40 mediations or all these 40 kammatthaana-bhaavana can give rise to 'preparatory sign' or parikamma nimitta. And they all can give rise to 'sign of mental image' or uggaha nimitta. But not all 40 kammatthaana-bhaavana or 40 meditations can give rise to 'sign of counter image of the mental image' or patibhaaga nimitta. This nimitta can be acquired by practising 22 meditations only. These 22 meditations have been discussed. These 22 meditations are a) 10 kasina meditation or kasina kammatthaana-bhaavana b) 10 foul meditation or 10 asubha kammatthaana-bhaavana c) 1 32-body-part recollection or kaayagataasati kammatthaana-bhaavana d) 1 breathing meditation or aanaapaanasati kammatthaana-bhaavanaa. All these 22 meditation can give rise to 1st jhaana and their object being patibhaaga nimitta. There are other 4 meditation that can give rise to 1st jhaana. They are 4 brahmavihaara kammatthaana-bhaavana or 4 pure-living meditation. They are 1. loving-kindness or mettaa 2. compassion or karunaa 3. appreciative joy or muditaa 4. equanimity or upekkhaa These 4 meditations do not give rise to patibhaaga nimitta or 'sign of counter image of mental image of preparatory object of meditation. When one achieves 1st jhaana for the first time, it is just a flickering of fingers. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts on Dhamma Thread. 45806 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Moment to moment dependent origination? htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Htoo > > I thought I just did. But let me give you a physical example... Each moment > the Earth's orbit around the Sun is dependent on the Sun. > conform to the forces -- mental or physical -- that are brought to bear. > > TG -------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- Dear TG, Thanks for your explanation in respect to physical example. aviija(ignorance) --> sankhara(formations) --> vin nana(consciousness)--> nama-rupa(ment-phys)-->salayatana(6-sense-base)-->phassa(contact) --> vedana(feeling) --> tanha(craving) -->upadana(clinging)--> bhavo(existence) --> jati(birth)--> ---> jara(ageing),marana(death),soka(sorrow), parideva(lamentation), dukkha(pain),domanassa(mental suffering),upayasa(despair)..... This is 3-lives Dependent Origination. I just asked you to explain on 'moment to moment' Dependent Origination'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 45807 From: "htootintnaing" Date: Sat May 21, 2005 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vism.XIV,159 htootintnaing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Today I started working it all out.This is in the context of > sankhaarakkhandha, the khandha of formations, and thus, feeling and saññaa > are omitted, they ar